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Chef Geoff's, Geoff Tracy's Local American Chain in Several Area Locations


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It was Sunday night football last night at the Tysons Corner Chef Geoff's, with $3 domestic pints, wings, sliders, and duck corn dogs. Valet parking is $2.

This bar has a very different feel from when it was Colvin Run Tavern - the bartender wore a bright-orange mesh football jersey, and so did one of the patrons. There are definitely some regulars that come in, some of whom are in the restaurant industry.

I started with a pint of Bell's Amber Ale (a remarkable $3.00), and was tempted by the "Pizza Pies" portion of their menu, which says "we make our mozzarella fresh by hand daily." So to keep it simple, I ordered a Straight Up ($10.95) with Mozzarella, tomato sauce, basil, and EVOO (essentially a Margherita). This was a pretty good pizza, with the only mild weakness being the crust, and for the price, it's worth the money.

Moving on to my entree, :angry: I was going to order either the sliders or the duck corn dogs, but was talked into the regular old Chef Geoff Burger because both the bartender and a regular customer told me it was worth the upcharge (I didn't see anything about $5.95 Sunday-night burgers on the menu, but that's what they told me it cost). Well, it was a perfectly fine burger, ordered and cooked medium, topped with cheddar and bacon, and served with an ever-important ramekin of green chile "aioli" which is what really sets it apart (the ramekin of ketchup sat untouched). I ordered the housemade Old Bay potato chips instead of fries, and was unimpressed. A pint of Dogfish Head 60 Minute IPA was, again, a remarkable $3.00.

When I got the check, the burger showed up as $10.95, but the second beer was absent. I mentioned both mistakes to the bartender (although I'm still not convinced the burger is discounted on Sunday nights), and he said he'd fix it, but then he got really slammed, and I just decided to leave it as is (it was only two dollars, and I was in a hurry at that point).

The service and atmosphere were friendly and sports-bar-like, and both the pizza and the burger were good renditions of pub food, and good values for the money - doubly so because of the terrific beer specials.

I had a very pleasant bar meal at Chef Geoff's last night - dare I test the kitchen a bit more next time?

Cheers,

Rocks.

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I had a very pleasant bar meal at Chef Geoff's last night - dare I test the kitchen a bit more next time?

I was a tad dissapointed in the Roasted Garlic and Wild Mushroom Soup I had at Chef Geoff's Downtown two weeks ago for lunch. It was not bad, per se, but it was all roasted garlic and no wild mushroom in taste. It might benefit from a slight change in proportions better to balance the flavors.

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I like Chef Geoff's in Tysons Corner but it's not a place I'll frequent. It's crazy loud during the week due to the huge bar and the happy-hour 20-something crowd suit-and-tie crowd. Last time I was there in August or so, there was a verbal battle between a happy hour reveler and management. Nice. It becomes a little more pleasant after about 7:30-8, if I remember correctly. They have an extensive and impressive beer selection. The prices are reasonable for the area and for the quality of food. I like that the menu is seasonal, but c'mon Geoff, leave the house-made tater tots on the menu year-round. Those things are fantastic!!! They looked like what you remember from your youth, but they tasted like potato, were crunchy and were served with a delicious aioli that I could've eaten with a spoon. My last meal there was a roasted chicken that was perfectly cooked. No complaints there:-)

Honestly, the noise deters me the most. It makes the meal totally unpleasant for me to have to raise my (quiet) voice to converse with my table mates and have ask them to repeat themselves.

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Did anyone else get a Ten for Ten coupon in the mail for $10 off in celebration of 10 years in business? I have never given them my postal address, so I can only imagine they sent one to every house residence in the metro area. It is also available on their website.

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Did anyone else get a Ten for Ten coupon in the mail for $10 off in celebration of 10 years in business? I have never given them my postal address, so I can only imagine they sent one to every house in the metro area. It is also available on their website.

I think every household. I live in an apt. complex, never visited Chef Geoff's and still got one.

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Which sounds more appetizing? I have to do a business lunch here and would like to try one of these as an appetizer.

Honestly, I can think of few things less appetizing than spending $20 at Chef Geoff's for a lobster roll -- unless it's spending $16 for an appetizer of fish tacos there. I've never had anything good there -- and those prices are ridiculous. (In fairness, I learned my lesson and haven't been there in at least two years, so i't always possible things have changed.) My advice would be to lower your expectations (i.e., don't come in with any -- then the best case scenario would be a pleasant surprise), or to pick a different spot for your lunch.

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I'm with Marty. Order a hamburger and pray for the best.

Agreed, though I think the burger is actually above average and rather enjoyable along with their thin, crispy fries, especially during happy hour when it is half-priced. That said, I would probably try to move the lunch.

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Honestly, I can think of few things less appetizing than spending $20 at Chef Geoff's for a lobster roll -- unless it's spending $16 for an appetizer of fish tacos there.

To be fair, those aren't actually appetizers. I would order them as appetizer because I'm interested in trying them and there's nothing listed as appetizers that seems appetizing to me. I was thinking about getting some linguine with clam and shrimp as my entree. No - I'm not paying for the meal so I don't mind the cost. And I'm in Tysons so the pickings are slim to none.

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I ended up ordering both the fish tacos and the lobster roll. Both were edible but nothing exciting. The fish tacos were fish sticks topped with some cabbage in a very thick tortilla. Not much flavor. The lobster roll was meaty but didn't taste as fresh as the one I had at Passionfish. I also like the sauce better at Passionfish.

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I have to endorse the above comments as reflective of our experience today. Salmon tartare had no taste, mostly onion and a too large chop tossed with mayo and capers with no seasoning. Flavors had no time to macerate and the chunks were too large for a tartare - fried chips were nondescript. Flat iron steak was perfectly fine (not distinctive) but the server kindly warned us anything ordering anything other than medium rare would be a tough chew.

Accompanying fries were limpid and nondescript. The salmon entree was a large serving but totally average on a plate dominated by sliced new potatoes, a less-than single spear of asparagus and a single quartered baby beet the size of thimble. The much-touted olive oil chocolate cake was a disaster and the figs/dates were a gummy sweet mess. Coffee was pretty good.

The menu is extensive, not but not that imaginative, and quite pricey. I think one can do far better in Tysons. BTW, the parking situation is an annoyance. Either valet park for $2 + tip or dodge endless "reserved and restricted" signs in the lot and the garage - you pass countless rows of endless empty spaces with such dispiriting signs - until you are ready to give up and head to McDonalds. Chef Geoff should impress on the landlord the parking situation needs to be made far more hospitable and less frustrating to patrons.

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I have to endorse the above comments as reflective of our experience today. Salmon tartare had no taste, mostly onion and a too large chop tossed with mayo and capers with no seasoning. Flavors had no time to macerate and the chunks were too large for a tartare - fried chips were nondescript. Flat iron steak was perfectly fine (not distinctive) but the server kindly warned us anything ordering anything other than medium rare would be a tough chew.

Accompanying fries were limpid and nondescript. The salmon entree was a large serving but totally average on a plate dominated by sliced new potatoes, a less-than single spear of asparagus and a single quartered baby beet the size of thimble. The much-touted olive oil chocolate cake was a disaster and the figs/dates were a gummy sweet mess. Coffee was pretty good.

The menu is extensive, not but not that imaginative, and quite pricey. I think one can do far better in Tysons. BTW, the parking situation is an annoyance. Either valet park for $2 + tip or dodge endless "reserved and restricted" signs in the lot and the garage - you pass countless rows of endless empty spaces with such dispiriting signs - until you are ready to give up and head to McDonalds. Chef Geoff should impress on the landlord the parking situation needs to be made far more hospitable and less frustrating to patrons.

We also had a disappointing exprerience at Chef Geoff for lunch last week. Very mediocre food despite the huge menu. You mentioned in your post that one could do better in Tysons Corner. Do you have any recs?

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Impressions from Chef Geoff's Tyson's on 4/15:

The mussels and Korean chicken were excellent, flavorful and correctly cooked.

The pork chops were quite good, but were not cooked medium rare, as the server

suggested -- they were served medium, slightly pink in the center, as one would

expect for pork.

The kitchen needs to learn how to cook ribs. My "Kansas City" ribs were

definitely not Kansas City cut. Worse, they were undercooked, tough and rubbery. I

stopped eating after three bites from various locations in the half-rack. Only

the dessert donuts saved the day (evening).

Also, IMO, the wine list is overpriced for the level of the menu. Downtown's

wine list is both better priced and far, far more interesting. The Tyson's wine

list looks like they acquired a defunct restaurant's stock and have not added to

it.

The beer list does not provide enough information about the styles of the draft

offerings, and the bartenders don't recognize the term "Calvados," despite a

Busnel (spelled "Bushnell") printed on the Cognac/Brandy list.

The place has a really nice decor, and is mobbed for happy hour, but the table

service was inattentive, despite the dining room being only half full -- we were

unable to order a bottle of wine until after the appetizers had been finished.

Overall, despite the much better wine list downtown, we're unlikely to be

tempted to try the downtown location or Lia's.

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We ate at Lia's several years ago and were unimpressed with the food - sounded good, looked good, but was just sort of tasteless. Now I hear that Cesare Lanfranconi is the executive chef which leads me to wonder whether the food has improved. Has anyone tried Lia's recently?

I haven't tried Lia's recently (was closed the other week when I went, resulting in Chadwicks), but had dinner the other evening at the Tysons Corner Chef Geoff's which features "pasta made fresh daily at Lia's." I really, really wanted to like it, but a $17.95 ($16.95 on the check) Spaghetti and Meatballs dish (with ricotta and basil) was just a big bowl of overcooked spaghetti which may as well have been dried. The sauce and (three large) meatballs were nondescript, and portion size aside, this dish could have come from a cafeteria. The strong points here were the atmosphere (the old Colvin Run Tavern really is a nice space), $2.00 valet parking, and the service (the friendly bartender shook my hand and asked (and remembered) my first name). Yet, just 24 hours before, I spent $2-3 LESS and had the fresh Saffron Pici with Maryland Blue Crab meat, lemon, chives, and bottarga at Palena. Forgive me, Frank, for I have strayed.

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Oh Gosh, Don I couldn't agree more, please forgive me. I went with a friend after voicing reservations and boy did i feel like gloating at the end of meal.

The best thing I can say is my friend agreed and we can say, "been there, did that, next...."

Frank, forgive me too b/c Palena is a completely different league then this.

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I was at the Chef Geoff's in Tysons for brunch a few months back, and just this past weekend was at the NW location for graduation Brunner (brunch-dinner graduation was pretty much an all day thing). I will say, while this is not super creative, delicate or artistic food, it is a good place to go with a group of varied tastes, for a decent meal.

I was happy at brunch that I could get an egg white omelette with very healthy ingredients. Hubby got a burger, which they always have very solid burgers. Other friends were happy, there is free valet parking, and was convenient for all our locations. In the Tyson's area it is a pretty good brunch choice.

At NW for brunner we had ham biscuits and chips with tzatziki sauce for starters. The ham biscuits are little biscuits with the ham incorporated in them, with a pepper jelly, I think traditional ham biscuits have better ham flavor, and the jelly was a bit sweet. The chips and tzatziki were fine, just as stated. Nothing special, but not bad.

I had the catfish tacos for my entree and actually really liked these. The catfish was lightly battered, fried well. I liked the tangy slaw with it. It was a huge portion, of course it was our only meal of the day so I polished them off. The plantain chips were nice and crispy, well seasoned. I wasn't crazy about their guacamole, but it wasn't bad, just a little bland.

I also had their gluten free pineapple upside down cake which was really good especially for being gluten free. And it was so nice to see a gluten free dessert on the menu. I thought they were pretty thoughtful as to special dietary needs on the menu. That's something that even if I am not currently abiding, I really notice nowdays.

No, it's no Palena, but it wasn't bad and was conveniently located, with stuff that could accommodate a variety of tastes.

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The lamb kofti on the Downtown location lunch menu is solid.

However, I find that the snacky bar food on the happy hour menu (not talking about the burger or pizza offerings) to be lame. I look at the list and nothing ever seems appealing...dude it's happy hour, keep it simple. And the beer list is weak...usually just order a Murphy's.

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I was at the Chef Geoff's in Tysons for brunch a few months back, and just this past weekend was at the NW location for graduation Brunner (brunch-dinner graduation was pretty much an all day thing). I will say, while this is not super creative, delicate or artistic food, it is a good place to go with a group of varied tastes, for a decent meal.

I would agree about accommodating differing tastes, but my brunch a few weeks back at the Arizona Ave location was an expensive disappointment. The eggs in my eggs benedict were far overcooked, along with the canadian bacon, leaving the whole dish to be pretty dry. I'm far from a gourmet chef but it seems to take quite a bit of mess up eggs benedict. My S.O. had the shrimp and grits which would have been much better had it not been surrounded by a thick moat of what tasted like pure butter. Lax service and tables WAY too tightly crammed together and we were ready to bail.

I'm actually glad to hear others have had better experiences - this is an uber convenient location for us to have brunch on Sundays, maybe we just caught an off day (a really, really off day).

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Speaking of accommodating various "dietary" needs...Food aside, I want to give Chef Geoff's props for something I found particularly cool... when I was pregnant last year - Chef Geoff's was a great spot for "mocktails"... they have quite a few made with fresh ingredients listed on their drink menu... made it a little easier to "happy hour" when I couldn't imbibe as usual! :P I found this section of their "drink menu" pretty thoughtful... I was only off the sauce for 9 months, but I'm sure others who either don't drink or perhaps aren't drinking while out for one reason or another also appreciate the gesture! :) Of course, many bartenders at our better restaurants that serve "craft cocktails" were always more than helpful in crafting something creative and non-alcoholic - i.e. Palena, Eventide, etc. They even seemed to have fun doing so! But there were a lot of spots we went that I'd either have the non-alcoholic beers or just "juice"... kind of boring - especially for someone who isn't a big "sweets" person. Interestingly enough, we were at a birthday party last summer and La Tasca served non-alcoholic sangria... very exciting to me at the time! :wub: Oh - and if you're ever looking for a non-alcoholic beer that's "better" than the others (still not as good as say some of the not so great "real beers")... my NA taste tests yielded "Buckler" n/a King of the non-alcoholic beers! :D Incidentally - the restaurants that served Buckler as their NA beer tended to have the better beer menus and better food... clearly - someone was actually trying the stuff they were buying before offering it to the public! ha ha! Oh - and the loser of the NA group - Kaliber - which is a "Guiness product"... too malty and sooo disappointing... So, now you know... you're welcome! :P

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I would agree about accommodating differing tastes, but my brunch a few weeks back at the Arizona Ave location was an expensive disappointment. The eggs in my eggs benedict were far overcooked, along with the canadian bacon, leaving the whole dish to be pretty dry. I'm far from a gourmet chef but it seems to take quite a bit of mess up eggs benedict. My S.O. had the shrimp and grits which would have been much better had it not been surrounded by a thick moat of what tasted like pure butter. Lax service and tables WAY too tightly crammed together and we were ready to bail.

I'm actually glad to hear others have had better experiences - this is an uber convenient location for us to have brunch on Sundays, maybe we just caught an off day (a really, really off day).

Our brunch was in Tysons, don't know how much difference there is between the locations, but just thought I would note that.

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The risk in being featured in an article like this is that it becomes difficult to give a restaurant a pass. While I'm a frequent visitor at the downtown location for a pretty good happy hour, last weekend was my first visit to the CG's Tysons outpost, and my first dinner at any of his restaurants since I read the article in the August Washingtonian.

So with the piece as context, I couldn't help but think, this burger is SUPPOSED to be this under seasoned - its recipe is one of the metrics. And this seafood pasta fra diavolo is SUPPOSED to taste of too-old seafood in a sauce that had none of the advertized spice. And these fish tacos are SUPPOSED to taste of too-old oil in a soggy 'tempura' crust. And we were SUPPOSED to have three billing errors out of four drink orders at the bar while waiting for our table, which wasn't ready until almost 30 minutes after our reservation.

To be fair - I did have a very good sashimi appetizer with Tuna, wasabi sauce and sesame crackers.

I normally would have chalked this up to a tired kitchen during the holiday season... a chef running back and forth between two cities still trying to find the balance... I wasn't exactly expecting gourmet when walking into Chef Geoff's, but was hoping for exactly what was advertized in the article - inoffensive food that would hopefully satisfy the tastes of a few unfamiliar dining companions. In this instance, Tracy's goal that we not remember our meal two hours later (seriously?) failed, and I'm guessing this wasn't the type of memory he was hoping for.

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The risk in being featured in an article like this is that it becomes difficult to give a restaurant a pass. While I'm a frequent visitor at the downtown location for a pretty good happy hour, last weekend was my first visit to the CG's Tysons outpost, and my first dinner at any of his restaurants since I read the article in the August Washingtonian.

So with the piece as context, I couldn't help but think, this burger is SUPPOSED to be this under seasoned - its recipe is one of the metrics. And this seafood pasta fra diavolo is SUPPOSED to taste of too-old seafood in a sauce that had none of the advertized spice. And these fish tacos are SUPPOSED to taste of too-old oil in a soggy 'tempura' crust. And we were SUPPOSED to have three billing errors out of four drink orders at the bar while waiting for our table, which wasn't ready until almost 30 minutes after our reservation.

To be fair - I did have a very good sashimi appetizer with Tuna, wasabi sauce and sesame crackers.

I normally would have chalked this up to a tired kitchen during the holiday season... a chef running back and forth between two cities still trying to find the balance... I wasn't exactly expecting gourmet when walking into Chef Geoff's, but was hoping for exactly what was advertized in the article - inoffensive food that would hopefully satisfy the tastes of a few unfamiliar dining companions. In this instance, Tracy's goal that we not remember our meal two hours later (seriously?) failed, and I'm guessing this wasn't the type of memory he was hoping for.

I just skimmed through the posts in this thread, and don't think Chef Geoff's has gotten a free pass here at all - by my count (eliminating posts which were completely neutral such as questions, "maybe try the $5 happy hour burger," redundant points made by the same poster, etc.) I counted 13 posts tilting positive, and 30 posts tilting negative. My own first post in this thread was one that tilted positive, by the way.

I then began reading that article, got to the bottom of the page, and said to myself, "My God, is this *really* going to be five pages long?" then skimmed pages 2-5 in about 45 seconds. Dissecting mediocrity is not my idea of a fun read, despite the "celebrity" aspect involved.

Mediocrity fosters mediocrity in this society, and it is not something that interests or inspires me in the least. I am quite certain that restaurants which attract the masses produce the most successful business models (by definition, they will attract more revenue); from a culinary standpoint, they tend to have very little merit. There is a reason that donrockwell.com is not as large as Yelp, and also a reason why certain PR-driven chefs with successful restaurants serving the masses do not participate here - as a group, our members tend not to get very excited about run-of-the-mill "eating" - a cow can eat; it takes something more than a cow to become discerning, and money has almost nothing to do with it so let's not go down that fallacious route.

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I am quite certain that restaurants which attract the masses produce the most successful business models (by definition, they will attract more revenue); from a culinary standpoint, they tend to have very little merit.

What defines merit?

I've always enjoyed the various Chef Geoff restaurants. Yes, the food is predictable, and lacking in ambition. It also happens to be pretty good, it's reasonably priced, family friendly, and has some of the best, most consistent service in the area.

Masses don't go to successful restaurants because they're stupid, ill-informed, or lacking in sophistication. They go because they expect to have an enjoyable meal, pure and simple.

To me, there's a great deal of merit in a place where I know exactly the kind of experience I'm going to have before I even go in, especially since with a young kid, I don't dine out very often any more.

Certainly it's a different kind of merit that many of us look for in a restaurant, but it's a merit nonetheless.

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from a culinary standpoint, they tend to have very little merit.

What defines merit?

I've always enjoyed the various Chef Geoff restaurants. Yes, the food is predictable, and lacking in ambition. It also happens to be pretty good, it's reasonably priced, family friendly, and has some of the best, most consistent service in the area.

Masses don't go to successful restaurants because they're stupid, ill-informed, or lacking in sophistication. They go because they expect to have an enjoyable meal, pure and simple.

Whatever is meritorious about Chef Geoff's, it's not culinary achievement. Of course that doesn't mean people can't eat there for other reasons. I happen to think it's not very good and for that reason, overpriced. (BTW, masses are by definition unsophisticated, no?)

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I just skimmed through the posts in this thread, and don't think Chef Geoff's has gotten a free pass here at all - by my count (eliminating posts which were completely neutral such as questions, "maybe try the $5 happy hour burger," redundant points made by the same poster, etc.) I counted 13 posts tilting positive, and 30 posts tilting negative. My own first post in this thread was one that tilted positive, by the way.

I thought genericeric was speaking of himself, that he couldn't give it a pass, given the documented formula they have.

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What defines merit?

I've always enjoyed the various Chef Geoff restaurants. Yes, the food is predictable, and lacking in ambition. It also happens to be pretty good, it's reasonably priced, family friendly, and has some of the best, most consistent service in the area.

Masses don't go to successful restaurants because they're stupid, ill-informed, or lacking in sophistication. They go because they expect to have an enjoyable meal, pure and simple.

To me, there's a great deal of merit in a place where I know exactly the kind of experience I'm going to have before I even go in, especially since with a young kid, I don't dine out very often any more.

Certainly it's a different kind of merit that many of us look for in a restaurant, but it's a merit nonetheless.

I agree with much of what you say here, mtureck.

If this were a restaurant-operators website, focusing on the business side of things, then perhaps I would say that Chef Geoff's has an enormous amount of merit. But, as Simon once said on American Idol, when he was feeling especially prickish: "This is a *singing* competition!" and then proceeded to trash a singer (and I think it was that guy Taylor Hicks). Since this is primarily a dining website, in search of artistry, I can't say that Chef Geoff's has culinary merit. Nevertheless, what you say makes good sense to me except this one phrase:

"Masses don't go to successful restaurants because they're stupid, ill-informed, or lacking in sophistication. They go because they expect to have an enjoyable meal, pure and simple."

This is not always true. Sometimes they really *are* stupid, ill-informed, and lacking in sophistication. That said, I recently mentioned (in the Cactus Cantina thread) that I used to go there often when Matt was an infant - for precisely the reasons you described. They always had a high chair ready to go, it was noisy, and nobody would notice if one of us needed to whisk him outside on a moment's notice if he got cranky. Yes, there is merit to that.

So as much as I'd like to disagree with what you have to say; instead, I'll say "thank you" for offering up a legitimate, opposing point of view.

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I thought genericeric was speaking of himself, that he couldn't give it a pass, given the documented formula they have.

That is correct, and thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify. I just meant that I otherwise may have said to myself, there are a lot of changes with Geoff Tracy right now and this chain of restaurants, and excused the numerous flaws based on that information. The article referenced made it difficult to believe that was the case.

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...

Nevertheless, what you say makes good sense to me except this one phrase:

"Masses don't go to successful restaurants because they're stupid, ill-informed, or lacking in sophistication. They go because they expect to have an enjoyable meal, pure and simple."

This is not always true. Sometimes they really *are* stupid, ill-informed, and lacking in sophistication.

I don't believe your positions are mutually exclusive.

I agree with mtureck that the masses choose based on expectations, which I've described as "predictability" in other threads. They might ALSO be stupid, ill-informed, unsophisticed...but I'd bet that the vast majority of the time they are choosing a place because it has a high % chance of meeting that expectation...one of an enjoyable meal. For example, they don't want greatness if there's a risk they'll feel inadequately dressed or if the restaurant is small and sometimes slow. They aren't looking for anything outside the biggest part of the bell curve, the part where they don't have to think about anything in the restaurant transaction and can instead focus on their conversation, getting full and leaving with no expectations violated.

In contrast, most on this site choose restaurants based on hopes - hopes that the food is great, hopes to find a diamond in the rough, hopes to experience a new dining high. It isn't precisely the opposite of seeking predictability, but it is close. As an example of not being the opposite - your own example of Cactus Cantina - when you have a child of a certain age and wish to dine out, you'll seek places based more on expecations being met (ie, you want a loud place that has a trained staff and plenty of high chairs) and you may have sacrificed the "hopes" side of the equation - but it certainly doesn't make you stupid, ill-informed or lacking in any sophistication. That day, you just had different needs when going to a restaurant; you weren't chasing any hopes.

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I don't believe your positions are mutually exclusive.

I agree with mtureck that the masses choose based on expectations, which I've described as "predictability" in other threads. They might ALSO be stupid, ill-informed, unsophisticed...but I'd bet that the vast majority of the time they are choosing a place because it has a high % chance of meeting that expectation...one of an enjoyable meal. For example, they don't want greatness if there's a risk they'll feel inadequately dressed or if the restaurant is small and sometimes slow. They aren't looking for anything outside the biggest part of the bell curve, the part where they don't have to think about anything in the restaurant transaction and can instead focus on their conversation, getting full and leaving with no expectations violated.

In contrast, most on this site choose restaurants based on hopes - hopes that the food is great, hopes to find a diamond in the rough, hopes to experience a new dining high. It isn't precisely the opposite of seeking predictability, but it is close. As an example of not being the opposite - your own example of Cactus Cantina - when you have a child of a certain age and wish to dine out, you'll seek places based more on expecations being met (ie, you want a loud place that has a trained staff and plenty of high chairs) and you may have sacrificed the "hopes" side of the equation - but it certainly doesn't make you stupid, ill-informed or lacking in any sophistication. That day, you just had different needs when going to a restaurant; you weren't chasing any hopes.

Thanks jayandstacey...I have a feeling Don and I could have gone back and forth for pages and not come up with anything half as good as this.

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Thanks jayandstacey...I have a feeling Don and I could have gone back and forth for pages and not come up with anything half as good as this.

Well don't let me stop you!

I kind of get the "expectations" mentality. Years ago I went to a pho place and the experience was awful - there was no heat in Feb, so we wore coats and had an oscillating heater blowing on us. There was a bucket of dirty water sitting near our table. There was a really bright spotlight shining from the bar toward our table - the kind of meal you get at a place that closes the next week. That doesn't happen at Chili's/TGI Friday's/Cheesecake Factory/etc. We take the risk for occasional weirdness/unpleasantness but consider the reward worth that risk. The masses don't. In fact, I've found that in a non-foodie group, the best suggestion is usually the one that everyone recogizes, has a wide menu of standards, has a low price point, etc...bascially, the least common demoninator is rewarded with the "best choice" attaboy.

Side notes:

- It seems such places focus on prices and physical comfort. If they ever actually talk about the food quality, they use the word succulent. I've always kind of thought about opening such a place and calling it "Succulent's." The staff would wear flair and the music would test well in controlled studies. I'd get some viral benefit by people calling my place "sucks" for short and, well, just having to go there.

- I've never been to Chef Geoff's. I've read mixed reviews.

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Well don't let me stop you!

I kind of get the "expectations" mentality. Years ago I went to a pho place and the experience was awful - there was no heat in Feb, so we wore coats and had an oscillating heater blowing on us. There was a bucket of dirty water sitting near our table. There was a really bright spotlight shining from the bar toward our table - the kind of meal you get at a place that closes the next week. That doesn't happen at Chili's/TGI Friday's/Cheesecake Factory/etc. We take the risk for occasional weirdness/unpleasantness but consider the reward worth that risk. The masses don't. In fact, I've found that in a non-foodie group, the best suggestion is usually the one that everyone recogizes, has a wide menu of standards, has a low price point, etc...bascially, the least common demoninator is rewarded with the "best choice" attaboy.

Side notes:

- It seems such places focus on prices and physical comfort. If they ever actually talk about the food quality, they use the word succulent. I've always kind of thought about opening such a place and calling it "Succulent's." The staff would wear flair and the music would test well in controlled studies. I'd get some viral benefit by people calling my place "sucks" for short and, well, just having to go there.

- I've never been to Chef Geoff's. I've read mixed reviews.

Yes, the risk/reward idea is accurate...and to push this back on topic, look at Chef Geoff's Rockville Menu.

Lots of variety, lots of choices, lots of influences. It's almost seems set up to be a upscale version of Cheesecake Factory et.al. It's a place you can go to no matter what you're in the mood for. And while I'll probably never have a transcendent meal there, I've also never left disappointed.

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Have been following this thread but wasn't motivated to offer a view until now.

The (Very) Brief Version

Indeed, different strokes for different folks are what keep things interesting and businesses afloat. For any business, knowing what you are and who your customers are are keys to success. The Chef Geoff's customer is different from the Fiola or Joe's Noodle customer. They all succeed because they're delivering what their customers want at prices that ensure at least minimum (sometimes much more) profitability. All fair. All good.

The Long Version

I think there is merit to all the points raised upthread. But, found my head spinning a bit with the definitions. Expectations can relate to anything, very much including food quality. Dish and food quality are what drive me; what I expect at prices high and low. Hope sounds like the driver of someone who's uninformed and perhaps naive. Those with expectations aren't necessarily looking for predictable, ordinary and generic food. And, hope as defined above makes me envision clueless dreamers ready to waste wads of cash.

A different way to think about this has to do with money and how restaurants either make it or bleed it.

Excepting only the very small percentage of restaurants that are cash-hemorrhaging hobbies for billionaires, restaurants have to be profitable or they'll fail. This, of course, happens often for a very wide bevy of reasons.

To me, Geoff's is generic with ordinary food and maybe akin to Wal-Mart or Target in the retail world. Alternatively, the more popular restaurants here on dr.com are both upscale Neiman Marcuses and and more affordable yet still interesting and unique boutiques. Spots like Fiola or R24 are like Neiman. Spots like Fishnet, Joe's Noodle or Two Amys are boutiquey, great values and with big followings.

Restaurants can make money either way. And, given how incredibly hard it is to build a sustainably profitable small business, I think all successful restauranteurs deserve our respect as long as they're honest. Deserving respect, however, is not the same thing as deserving patronage since we each decide where we go and spend based on individual expectations and needs.

Geoff's arguably has a profit-maximizing strategy whereas the high-end or boutique places (interesting, different, ethnic, damn good even if not expensive) are trying to achieve a certain kind of reputation for putting out great and interesting food. The latter will typically offer great value but with lower margins or at least less bottom-line income than a Clydes, Maggianos or Geoff's. Tracy seems to take great pride in his business' financial success whereas other spots' greatest source of pride is in what they send out on plates. Different motivations. Different ways to succeed.

In any industry, money is there to be made by targeting different types of customers with different needs and different income levels.

I'm not a Geoff's customer simply because my expectation for any restaurant is that it be delicious, fairly priced, and memorable. By Tracy's own admission, his goal is for the food to be forgettable. For me, memorable is a great, non-generic meal, whether expensive or inexpensive. I'm big on value: the quality of what you get for whatever price paid. But I am an admirer of Geoff's business model (especially if it continues to prove successful as he scales). And I do fully appreciate and respect that others are different from me and enjoy Geoff's for many reaasons.

All fair and good. No right or wrong.

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This all reminds me of the scene in "Big Night" (which if you haven't seen, shame on you!) where Pascal is describing why his admittedly lesser Italian restaurant for the masses is doing so well,

"A guy works all day, he don't want to look at his plate and ask, "What the fuck is this?" He wants to look at his plate, see a steak, and say "I like steak!"

All the analysis in this thread is great, but I think that sums it up pretty well.

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This all reminds me of the scene in "Big Night" (which if you haven't seen, shame on you!) where Pascal is describing why his admittedly lesser Italian restaurant for the masses is doing so well,

"A guy works all day, he don't want to look at his plate and ask, "What the fuck is this?" He wants to look at his plate, see a steak, and say "I like steak!"

All the analysis in this thread is great, but I think that sums it up pretty well.

From the same movie (which is pretty funny). Here we have Secondo (the brother who just wants to give the masses what he thinks they want) feeling a bit overwhelmed and being put in his place by Pascal, who's slowly changing his mindset about great food:

You know everything has just become... too much.

Hey, hey, fucking guy! What this is: "too much"? HEY! It is never "too much"; it is only "not enough"! Bite your teeth into the ass of life and drag it to you! HEY!

and, from mtureck's Pascal, later in the film, after his transformation is almost complete:

God damn it, I should kill you! This is so fucking good I should kill you!

Makes both points nicely. Some just want the damn steak. Others want something a bit more special, interesting or memorable. There are restaurants that do both nicely and sustainably. Don't have to spend more to be memorable. Just have to have that as a priority and focus. That's why spots like Fishnet (less expensive) and Fiola (more expensive) can both delight someone like me. Both very memorable. And it's why there are absolutely customers who beat down the doors of Clydes and Chef Geoff's.

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The Chef Geoff's customer is different from the Fiola or Joe's Noodle customer.

Unless it's me, in which case he's exactly the same.

For all the talk of "delicious, fairly priced and memorable" and "the stupid, ill-informed, unsophisticated, masses," there is often much to be said for a convenient, decent, civilized place perhaps not to "dine," but to "eat.'

Sometimes I feel as though the urge to dump on places like Cheff Geoff's or any Spike Mendelsson spot reveals a certain insecurity, as if we have to assert our sophistication to convince ourselves of it. I'm speaking here more to the grand pronouncements of the last few posts as opposed to the "I ate there and didn't really like it" analyses earlier on.

"Since this is primarily a dining website, in search of artistry, I can't say that Chef Geoff's has culinary merit." Oh, ick. Does this mean we can't talk about Tater Tots and rotisserie chicken any more?

I always thought it was a website for people who like to eat and I get all nervous when people start dividing restaurants into the "worthy" and the "unworthy."

For what it's worth, I find CG's somewhere in the middle ground between truly loathsome places like Magianos and truly decent neighborhood places like Maple. I think it's a shade pricy for what they deliver, but if there was one in Columbia Heights, I'd eat there every now and again because it's decent and close.

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Just hit "like" for the first time on Waitman's post. Agree wholeheartedly on everything except his first line. And that's not so much disagreement.

On the "different customer" thing I wrote, of course talking in aggregate. Segments if you will. I've been to CG's also but not in a long time. Allowing for anecdotes and exceptions (guessing most of us visit 'mass market' places on occasion; some play the field more broadly; some change over time), I think it fair to say what I did. Those who frequent spots like Fishnet, Maple, Palena or Fiola generally aren't the same people who frequent spots like Clydes or CGs. Different but not good or bad, lesser or greater. No judgments. Just preferences.

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Personally, I made a decision not to patronize any of GT's establishments after hearing a radio interview with him a few days after a Post article about him was published, showing him in his multi-gazillion dollar new home kitchen in Potomac or McLean. Yes I know that his wife is a successful television journalist. But during the interview, he whined about a proposal that employers had to provide a few days of paid sick leave to their employees, complaining that it would cut into his profit margin too much. Knowing what the going rate is for waitstaff (less than minimum wage) and most kitchen staff (minimum wage), and that many kitchen workers cannot afford to lose a day's pay, so they work sick, I found his attitude particularly loathesome. Raise your prices a few pennies per dish, dude. Or take less money for yourself. Treat your workers more humanely. JMHO.

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Unless it's me, in which case he's exactly the same.

For all the talk of "delicious, fairly priced and memorable" and "the stupid, ill-informed, unsophisticated, masses," there is often much to be said for a convenient, decent, civilized place perhaps not to "dine," but to "eat.'

Sometimes I feel as though the urge to dump on places like Cheff Geoff's or any Spike Mendelsson spot reveals a certain insecurity, as if we have to assert our sophistication to convince ourselves of it. I'm speaking here more to the grand pronouncements of the last few posts as opposed to the "I ate there and didn't really like it" analyses earlier on.

"Since this is primarily a dining website, in search of artistry, I can't say that Chef Geoff's has culinary merit." Oh, ick. Does this mean we can't talk about Tater Tots and rotisserie chicken any more?

I always thought it was a website for people who like to eat and I get all nervous when people start dividing restaurants into the "worthy" and the "unworthy."

For what it's worth, I find CG's somewhere in the middle ground between truly loathsome places like Magianos and truly decent neighborhood places like Maple. I think it's a shade pricy for what they deliver, but if there was one in Columbia Heights, I'd eat there every now and again because it's decent and close.

Wow, do you *really* think extracting my one comment about Simon and Taylor Hicks reflects the overall tone of my post - which was an attempt to reach agreement with someone who I didn't, on the first pass, agree with? I went out of my way to try for a meeting of the minds, which is R-A-R-E on the internet, and quite honestly, I'm proud of myself for having done so successfully from what I can see. I could have attacked; instead I tried to actually read what mtureck wrote, think about it for a great deal of time, giving his points the respect they deserved, and then strive for a point of agreement, and I think I did so very effectively, providing two different - yet valid - points of view on the same issue.

Comparing your (one might say) uppity Maggiano's comment in the same way that you compared my Chef Geoff's comment - am I entitled to say, "Oh, ick. Does this mean we can't talk about fettucini with meat sauce any more?" Because I think it's the exact same thing. If you don't, then please tell me what the difference is.

From where I interpret it: bad post, Charles. You took a potentially contentious thread, that had turned positive, and turned it back into something negative.

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I know where Charles was attempting to come from, *and* understand what Don is saying. :)

I'm extremely reluctant to take shots at the "ill-informed, ignorant" masses, because not everyone uninterested in the latest fad is ignorant. My dad is a very successful man, with two masters degrees. He eats lunch or dinner out nearly every day for business. His ideal is a place that takes reservations, has a wide range of entrees, recognizable food (the "I love steak" mentioned above - great movie BTW), and service that won't be an embarrassment. He would no more drive in town and wait outside for an hour to have a meal at Little Serow -- although he loves Thai food and is the person who introduced me to it -- than he would try to flap his arms and fly to the moon. Some people are content to eat, not "dine," and very much prize something reasonably tasty and predictable.

And when he wants a place to take all of his kids and grandkids out to eat, he almost always takes us to Maggianos. They can handle a table for 12 with ease, always take reservations, and have something to please everyone right down to my 18-month-old niece. His birthday is next week, and no doubt we will all be eating at Maggianos to celebrate, "loathsome" as it is.

I am much less likely to patronize Chef Geoff's not because of the boring food, but because of the interview Zora mentioned. I am less and less enthralled with the way the industry works, with its exploitation of undocumented workers, long hours, low wages, and lack of health care or benefits. I would love to see a notation next to every place in the dining guide rating an establishment on how it treats its staff, so that I can truly evaluate whether it should get my patronage.

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From where I interpret it: bad post, Charles. You took a potentially contentious thread, that had turned positive, and turned it back into something negative.

Sorry, I'm not seeing that at all - if anything, I think it's the most thought-provoking thing that's been said thus far. Count me in as one who absolutely LOATHES painting restaurants with the broad brushes that this community has been using recently.

To say that a place like Chef Geoff's has no culinary merit means to abandon hope, all ye who enter. That if I happen to find myself there for a meal, I'm better off pocketing the cash and skipping eating. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see that actually being the case at Chef Geoff's. (Honestly, I can't tell you with any level of certainty, because I've never eaten at any of the man's restaurants, but with as much cash as he's printing, he has to be doing SOMETHING right.)

But instead of offering up any sort of actual critique on what Chef Geoff's, Good Stuff, et al, do wrong, we just write the whole operation off in one pass. What does that add to the discussion? This is the more civilized and verbose version of the 1-star Yelp review that says "This place sucks!" and its less evil twin, the 5-star "Awesome!" review. It's lazy, and offers nothing to the reader except a feeling of judgement if they happen to hold a differing opinion.

Restaurant discussion is incredibly helpful when we're talking about facts; quality of food, quality of service, etc. It's provocative when we compare how different kitchens treat similar ingredients, or how certain staffs treat the guest experience. But something like value is so wildly subjective between people and so limited in scope, I'm not sure it's even worth talking about. What's a valuable restaurant? What does that even mean? Your definition will differ from my definition, and will differ from four other peoples' definitions. And at least when we call a restaurant good or bad, there's shades of gray in between.

To talk about restaurants as either having or not having merit is the worst kind of dichotomous classification that I feel should never be used for something as varied and as personal as restaurants. It offers very little room for discussion, and smacks of laziness. And maybe Charles was a bit sarcastic when he said it, but the point stands: if Chef Geoff's has no culinary merit, why are we here talking about it at all? Why are we talking about any of these restaurants that have no merit? You're not just calling into question the people who dine at these worthless establishments - you're calling into question the people who want to talk about them, even if it's to discuss something negative that they maybe should have seen coming.

What kind of discussion does that leave us with?

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Value and preferences are personal and, at least to me, interesting when supported. Decreeing whether a place "has merit" or "is worthy" can sound imperious but usually when taken out of context, Personal opinion, however colorfully conveyed, is the lifeblood of a site like this imho.

Though I probably don't like Maggianos anymore than Waitman, I wouldn't call it "loathsome" because it serves a market well, or seems like it does.

All the same, I think the context is critical. Nearly all the time on this site, personal opinions are being expressed and that's gold. Call it loathsome, say it sucks, whatever.I try to empathize with the small business owners in choosing whatever language to constructively criticize but, in the cases of CGs or Maggianos, that's less a concern since nothing anyone writes here is going to stop those trains.

Just support whatever argument with some facts or evidence and it becomes useful...maybe even entertaining.As long as it's not vindictive, hostile or destructive, I'm good. Had no problem whatsoever with Waitman's or Rocks' posts.Loved Zora's short post. They all had me thinking and I love that.

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Sorry, I'm not seeing that at all - if anything, I think it's the most thought-provoking thing that's been said thus far. Count me in as one who absolutely LOATHES painting restaurants with the broad brushes that this community has been using recently.

To say that a place like Chef Geoff's has no culinary merit means to abandon hope, all ye who enter. That if I happen to find myself there for a meal, I'm better off pocketing the cash and skipping eating. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see that actually being the case at Chef Geoff's. (Honestly, I can't tell you with any level of certainty, because I've never eaten at any of the man's restaurants, but with as much cash as he's printing, he has to be doing SOMETHING right.)

But instead of offering up any sort of actual critique on what Chef Geoff's, Good Stuff, et al, do wrong, we just write the whole operation off in one pass. What does that add to the discussion? This is the more civilized and verbose version of the 1-star Yelp review that says "This place sucks!" and its less evil twin, the 5-star "Awesome!" review. It's lazy, and offers nothing to the reader except a feeling of judgement if they happen to hold a differing opinion.

Restaurant discussion is incredibly helpful when we're talking about facts; quality of food, quality of service, etc. It's provocative when we compare how different kitchens treat similar ingredients, or how certain staffs treat the guest experience. But something like value is so wildly subjective between people and so limited in scope, I'm not sure it's even worth talking about. What's a valuable restaurant? What does that even mean? Your definition will differ from my definition, and will differ from four other peoples' definitions. And at least when we call a restaurant good or bad, there's shades of gray in between.

To talk about restaurants as either having or not having merit is the worst kind of dichotomous classification that I feel should never be used for something as varied and as personal as restaurants. It offers very little room for discussion, and smacks of laziness. And maybe Charles was a bit sarcastic when he said it, but the point stands: if Chef Geoff's has no culinary merit, why are we here talking about it at all? Why are we talking about any of these restaurants that have no merit? You're not just calling into question the people who dine at these worthless establishments - you're calling into question the people who want to talk about them, even if it's to discuss something negative that they maybe should have seen coming.

What kind of discussion does that leave us with?

fuzzy, I appreciate the time you put into writing this, but to my eyes, you've set up (unintentionally) multiple strawmen, and mowed 'em all down. This, interleaved with some blatantly obvious truths in a way that would require parsing and analyzing each sentence to respond to your post in any meaningful manner, and I just don't have the hour it would take me to do, and I'm not sure what would be accomplished if I did.

So let me just say "thanks" for your opinion. Please consider it read, thought about, and much appreciated (and I'm not being sarcastic - I really do appreciate your thoughts).

Cheers,

Rocks

PS - It was your post that made me rethink (and eliminate) the word "Ordinary" from the thread title.

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Not intended as a judgment, broad brush, criticism or praise. Just an observation I found mildly interesting.

With everything internet the past decade or so, direct marketing mail to homes is way down. Not sure about all of you but, generally, the only 5x7 unsolicited promotional cards we tend to get with our mail are from realtors, the occasional contractor or personal service types like teeth whitening providers.

I don't remember the last time I got such a marketing card from a restaurant. Until today.

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