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Chef Geoff's, Geoff Tracy's Local American Chain in Several Area Locations


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Wow, do you *really* think extracting my one comment about Simon and Taylor Hicks reflects the overall tone of my post - which was an attempt to reach agreement with someone who I didn't, on the first pass, agree with? I went out of my way to try for a meeting of the minds, which is R-A-R-E on the internet, and quite honestly, I'm proud of myself for having done so successfully from what I can see. I could have attacked; instead I tried to actually read what mtureck wrote, think about it for a great deal of time, giving his points the respect they deserved, and then strive for a point of agreement, and I think I did so very effectively, providing two different - yet valid - points of view on the same issue.

Comparing your (one might say) uppity Maggiano's comment in the same way that you compared my Chef Geoff's comment - am I entitled to say, "Oh, ick. Does this mean we can't talk about fettucini with meat sauce any more?" Because I think it's the exact same thing. If you don't, then please tell me what the difference is.

From where I interpret it: bad post, Charles. You took a potentially contentious thread, that had turned positive, and turned it back into something negative.

Really? "Oh, ick?" I make a New Year's resolution to stop calling people "asshole" -- not, mind you, to stop acting like one -- and I get read out for writing "ick?" I may as well go back to my less temperate ways.

Anyway, since you missed the point completely, let me re-iterate. It's not the criticism of Chef Geoff's per se that I find unfortunate. I'm occasionally critical myself. It's the strain of un-cut snobbery that seemed to be creeping into the discussion, as evidenced by the (yes, representative) quotes I pulled out. If I dislike Maggiano's it's not that it fails to exist on the culinary/artistic/

appropriate to someone of my refined tastes, nor is it that I'll have to rub shoulders with the proletariate I dislike Maggiano's it because it kind of sucks.

Now, mea culpa. I'm not perfect in this regard, either. But I try not to trot out my snobbery as some sort of emblem of my refined tastes. A while back I was walking by the Applebees that has somehow sprouted in Columbia Heights, amongst all the hipster and ethnic joints, and being a bit drunk I told Mrs. B that I wanted to see what kind of unrefined idiot goes out to Applebees on a Friday night. Of course, the answer was obvious: "the stupid, ill-informed, unsophisticated, masses," the kind of people who are holding on to their homes against the yuppie juggernaught in Columbia Heights by their fingernails, and for whom Applebees is, in fact a big night out and a pleasant change from a busy life. Mrs. B of course gave me a withering glare when I walked out -- she was always the utlimate small d democrat -- and I felt, as someone once wrote "lower than whale shit." But it was an important takedown and a strong reminder that our access too and enjoyment of great food doesn't make us, or the restaurants and chefs we deign to embrace, somehow superior on a moral or aesthetic sense.

And that thought, coupled with the fact that sometimes a bacon double cheeseburger just hits the spot, makes me feel, as I said, a little queasy when the discussion strays from the quality of the food towards the artistic merits of the joint at hand.

As should be clear, I'm not particularly interested in some negotiated settlement between opposing viewpoints. I like finding common ground, and even post nice stuff every now and again (not that anyone seems to pay any attention ;) ). But I'm more interested in a "free and frank exchange of ideas," as the diplos say, perhaps as part of some dialectical process which, even if it doesn't resolve itself into an obvious synthesis, does drive us towards a better and more complete understanding of a subject that is obviously important to us. Even if disagreements are not resolved, even if they become heated, I generally come away having learned a little.

I, too, take time to consider before I write (though this gap was the result of a busy weekend and the websight being down, not three days of rumination). So it's a little disappointing to be attacked not for the substance of my work, but for the perceived shortcomings of my thought process. I kind of like being called "uppity," though. I guess I just don't know my place.

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I fail to see much difference between saying a place has no "culinary merit," and a place "sucks." In both cases, you're dismissing a restaurant (or chain) based on your subjective criteria. Logically, you either prohibit such conclusory remarks or you tolerate them without getting all wound up. I mean, how do you draw a line (objectively) between Mickey D's, Applebees, Maggiano's, and Chef Geoff's?

I actually eat at Mickey D's. Do I really need to justify why? I don't think so. I also don't talk about it or compare their burgers to Ray's. To compare them would be a waste of time (the disparity should be self-evident). Does it bother me when people put down Mickey D's? Hell no. I will happily admit that Mickey D's sucks and has no culinary merit. Does that make me stupid, ill informed, or unsophisticated? I don't think so but that also doesn't mean that most people who eat at Mickey D's are intelligent, informed, and sophisticated. So the point is don't leap to conclusions about the traits of people who eat less than stellar food because people are really touchy these days. Nor should people take umbrage at perceived slights when none are intended.

BTW, masses is defined as the body of common people or people of low socioeconomic status.

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I fail to see much difference between saying a place has no "culinary merit," and a place "sucks." In both cases, you're dismissing a restaurant (or chain) based on your subjective criteria. Logically, you either prohibit such conclusory remarks or you tolerate them without getting all wound up. I mean, how do you draw a line (objectively) between Mickey D's, Applebees, Maggiano's, and Chef Geoff's?

Au contraire. In the former case, you are imposing a caste system on restaurants, and dismissing swaths of the restaurant world as being unworthy simply because they are insufficiently elevated -- they are a priori without merit. You can dismiss dismiss them simply because of what they are, without even walking through the door. In the second case you actually have to eat the food and judge it on its own terms. In my opinion, Maggiano's fails even as a shopping mall chain restaurant. On the other hand, McDonalds succeeds as a fast food burger joint.

If I object to my daughter's boyfriend because he is of the "wrong" race or social class, I show myself to a snob and a bigot, and also run the risk of depriving myself of the charms of meeting someone who might be a charming and intelligent young man. If I object not because he is of a different ethnicity or class but because he treats her badly, then I'm behaving like a responsible, if meddlesome dad.

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Au contraire. In the former case, you are imposing a caste system on restaurants, and dismissing swaths of the restaurant world as being unworthy simply because they are insufficiently elevated -- they are a priori without merit. You can dismiss dismiss them simply because of what they are, without even walking through the door. In the second case you actually have to eat the food and judge it on its own terms. In my opinion, Maggiano's fails even as a shopping mall chain restaurant. On the other hand, McDonalds succeeds as a fast food burger joint.

That is a distinction that you just drew. It wasn't apparent from prior posts that there is such distinction. More importantly, it doesn't apply on the facts. Don has been to CG as have I. So in your parlance, we really mean CG sucks, as opposed to it having no culinary merit. So your point is we should never pre-judge. That is a laudable sentiment and one I generally agree with.

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Maybe my perspective is skewed because the Chef Geoffs in Rockville is in walking distance of my apartment. And while I don't consider it a destination restaurant (that is, if I had to drive more than a few miles to reach one I wouldn't bother), it's definitely a step above the local Silver Diner and maybe even Mosaic Cafe (the other sit-down restaurants that are near my apartment). It's traditional New American fare but usually they add some interesting twists, like the brie-braided brioche french toast I had last weekend. And they have a decent beer selection and a good cocktail program.

I don't consider culinary merit to be a binary thing. Geoffs has more merit than Ruby Tuesdays, less merit than Komi. If my friends suggest eating out at Geoffs, I won't pout and frown.

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I'll say it once more. Merit, sucks, whatever. Has to be considered in context. Who's doing the writing? And what are they saying in total?

Merit can seem imperious, judgmental, arrogant, whatever when taken in isolation. But coming from Rocks, whom we know, in a longer post, I didn't take it that way at all.

Opinions, the stronger the better. Evidenced or at least supported and not spurious. That's the ticket. Or what Waitman calls an "exchange of ideas." That's the bus I like to ride.

I think a place is great because A, B and C.

That place sucks because X, Y or Z.

That place has no merit in my book because I don't like that they 1, 2 or 3.

I don't usually express disfavor, disapproval, critique, disgust or what have you those last two ways. But that's just me. To each his or her own.

All are personal views. I'd hope all fine so long as clear they're individual views and not destructive, insulting (ad hominem attacks, etc.), likely to unfairly hurt someone or their business, etc.

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This is the same Primi Piatti that was in Tysons Corner where Colvin Run Tavern was and where Equinox now is....I remember that it was plannong a move to Courthouse, but apparently ended up downtown. I haven't heard of it in 20 years....

Colvin Run Tavern actually became Chef Geoff's - Equinox is nearby.

This reminds me: Once upon a time, I started a thread that listed, by address, the various restaurants that have occupied the space over the years. For example: 8045 Leesburg Pike, Vienna: Primi Piatti -> Colvin Run Tavern -> Chef Geoff's.

I never did much with it, but now I don't even know where it is. Does anyone remember this? Does anyone have any idea where it might be? It's a nice idea (oh, I have lots of those); but developing and maintaining *just this one thread* would be a 40 hour a week job. I was hoping a local history buff might take it and run with it.

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Colvin Run Tavern actually became Chef Geoff's - Equinox is nearby.

This reminds me: Once upon a time, I started a thread that listed, by address, the various restaurants that have occupied the space over the years. For example: 8045 Leesburg Pike, Vienna: Primi Piatti -> Colvin Run Tavern -> Chef Geoff's.

You are correct....and Nostos is across the side street.

This is a troublesome real estate area for restaurants. Tysons traffic, especially in November-December, never-ending construction, nerve wracking traffic patterns, and a difficult landlord apparently all conspire against these spaces....

I heard that Colvin Run's problems stemmed from the landlord. I can only recall that Primi Piatti had its eyes on a large location near Courthouse Towers, and instead ended up downtown. I take it the plan all along was to locate downtown -- kind of like the Tim Ma approach to start in Vienna, open in Clarendon, and then eventually open downtown.

Chef Geoff's may have landed square in the lap of mediocrity and is thus nicely entrenched in its element.

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Chef Geoff's may have landed square in the lap of mediocrity and is thus nicely entrenched in its element.

Pretty much. The happy hour there gets very crowded based on my couple of experiences there.

I miss Colvin Run Tavern - it wasn't perfect, but the downgrade to Chef Geoff's very much reflects the downgrade in DC area restaurants as a whole since the recession hit.

Anyone who thinks Mark Furstenberg was wrong, is wrong. Washington, DC was once on the verge of becoming a great restaurant city; it's not any longer.

I still think Washingtonian caused the recession when they pulled their Adour stunt. That was almost exactly when everything started to go to hell in a handbasket. I know, I know, post hoc ergo prompter hoc. Still, the symbolism is almost too perfect to ignore.

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That Rockville storefront is cursed.

I really don't believe in cursed storefronts... but this is pretty close. Definitely a crappy location, made worse by changed traffic patterns with the Montrose Rd/Pkwy overpass. It's an easy place to miss and can be frustrating to drive to. But remember, Matchbox's location up the road used to be 'cursed'.

Also, the prestige chains within Pike & Rose down the street seem to be killing it (anecdotal evidence: we had trouble finding a spot in 3 different restaurants there a few weeks ago).

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I really don't believe in cursed storefronts... but this is pretty close. Definitely a crappy location, made worse by changed traffic patterns with the Montrose Rd/Pkwy overpass. It's an easy place to miss and can be frustrating to drive to. But remember, Matchbox's location up the road used to be 'cursed'.

Also, the prestige chains within Pike & Rose down the street seem to be killing it (anecdotal evidence: we had trouble finding a spot in 3 different restaurants there a few weeks ago).

I don't think it is cursed either.  Houstons was there for as long as I can remember.  I have heard 2 stories about why it closed, which had nothing to do with how well the restaurant was doing (you could never go to Houstons and be seated immediately, there is always a wait, and still is a wait in Bethesda).

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I don't think it is cursed either.  Houstons was there for as long as I can remember.  I have heard 2 stories about why it closed, which had nothing to do with how well the restaurant was doing (you could never go to Houstons and be seated immediately, there is always a wait, and still is a wait in Bethesda).

Houston's was there for 17 years, Againn had financial problems, and the area changed a *lot* before and during Chef Geoff's tenure.

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I don't think that location is cursed at all.  Houston's was there from the early 80's to 2009 and did well virtually from the start.  Houston's Rockville was a killer location, business wise and Houston's, as part of a national chain, of restaurant operations is the "higher end" exception to the rule of mediocrity.  The chain has a varied group and type of restaurants around the country.  They generally do well and are well received.

Its a funky little shopping center with not enough parking (when the restaurants are full) and less than great access.  But it is in the middle of that vast population with a lot of disposable income and Houston's did a better job than most competitors on the Pike, thus doing great.

Hadn't been to Chef Geoff's Rockville Pike and glanced through reviews focusing on the last year.  There were some clunker reviews.  Other reviews focused solely on Happy Hours...so I suspect there were a lot of dead hours at Chef Geoffs.  (I've been pleased with other Chef Geoff sites)

and btw:  Here is a longish conversation abt Houston's closing from 2009 (including names you'll recognize)

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I liked that there was a Chef Geoff's in that area, it was a nice place to have brunch with friends/family in that area, but I will say that multiple times I had problems figuring out where to pull into the location and drove around an extremely busy crazy shopping center parking lot beside it to try to get back out and back in and the signage wasn't very clear.  

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Houston's was there for 17 years, Againn had financial problems, and the area changed a *lot* before and during Chef Geoff's tenure.

Actually Houston's opened in that center around '82/ '83/'84 (more likely '83 or '84) .  I brokered a tenant in that small "then new" shopping center at the same time and was friendly with the "then GP's" of the project (Lerner was then a cash investor/partner).  Houston's did well from the "get go".  I'd go there shortly after it opened.  Ribs were good, bar was good, food in general and service were all good.   In the comment stream from the Chow discussion above, from rough memory,I'd agree with the person who referenced that center always had a lot of tenant turnover, while Houston's was always always busy.  Finally I'm aware that over many years management insisted on certain FOH standards that probably ensured better service all the time.

But it is a tough little center to get to and in and out of...so a restaurant really has to shine above all the competition in the area.  I guess neither Seasons 52 nor Chef Geoff's hit that mark.

For Chef Geoff's not easy access but it really had great demographics...I guess they couldn't shine enough over all the endless competition....and I sure as hell bet that the rent was freaking high.

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I'm not surprised the Rockville location closed  - I live nearby and visited just once and swore never again.

The service we experienced was terrible - we dropped in during the middle of the afternoon when it was mostly empty and were greated with a "do you have a reservation?" and an exasperated groan when we said we did not.  We received our meals OK but the server never offered to refill our drinks or check on us; we had intended to order dessert but when the bill was just dropped on us without asking if we'd like anything else we took it as our cue to leave and never came back.

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Tysons location is alive and well - Have not had a bad meal here; Brunch, dinner or Thanksgiving (multiple years) - service has been good, worst part is location due to traffic in the immediate area. 

Wine list is decent, and if one does not feel like cooking for Thanksgiving, they do a nice meal with many options for adults and children.  The menu is listed on their website.  They also do a brunch which has great donuts, Bloody Mary's and benedicts.  Stuff changes seasonally so best to check their website first for updated menus.  Moderately priced for the NoVa area, suggest a reservation.

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It’s last call for Virginia’s unconstitutional happy-hour advertising laws, by Anastasia Boden November 30, 2018, on washingtonpost.com.  The Commonwealth of Virginia's behavior in this case is appalling and indefensible.  I can't believe my taxes pay for this.  I, for one, plan to spend more time patronizing Chef Geoff.  I suggest you do so as well.

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Thank you for the support on this.  There is Supreme Court precedent supporting basic first amendment rights in this case (see 44 Liquormart v Rhode Island in 1996).  But even though  Virginia has all but said they agree with me, they are trying to bury me and my attorney in paperwork.  I handed over 65,000 of absolutely useless documents to them.  It is data on sales by the hour (they wanted by the minute).  I gave them three years of information.  They wanted ten years but my point of sale doesn't keep that info beyond three.  They wanted to settle with me but it would have been an incomplete victory as laws would have still have to make it through Richmond post dropping the suit.  The best thing for Virginia to do is to concede.  The further they delay, the more money the state is wasting defending asinine regulations that serve no purpose.  The fact that it is against the law to advertise the price of a glass of pinot grigio at happy hour makes no sense.  And Virginia is making it worse by trying to defend it.

-Geoff Tracy  - Chef Geoff's

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I don't see how Geoff can possibly lose this case - if what he's advertising is legal, and he isn't making any false claims, then what law does Virginia have to stand on? I'm trying to think of a parallel, and I can't.

Maybe this ties in, somehow, to Virginia prohibiting the sale of alcohol after midnight?

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To restate, I'm not a lawyer, and haven't yet played one on TV, and I hope that GT prevails.

I do have experience reading legal briefs specifically as they pertain to alcohol laws. Have followed the direct shipping cases, and had my own case 20 years ago. 

I've just read the two briefs in this case, and am left with an uneasy feeling. I thought the state's defense was better and more robust than the Pacific Legal Foundation's attack. These cases can seem straightforward if you look at them from only one perspective. Look from both and they're more complicated.

Although they are different issues, I have a feeling just from reading the briefs, that Trone at SCOTUS, is on firmer legal ground, than GT in Va. I think the GT case could go either way, I'll be surprised if Trone loses.

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Despite my uneasiness after reading the briefs in this case, I forgot to point out that the plaintiffs in a similar case, a group of broadcasters in Missouri, were successful at district court, with an even broader claim under the 1st Amendment against restrictions on alcohol advertising. Potentially good news for GT. That case is now on appeal to the Eight Circuit.
 
From Libation Law Blog........
 
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A federal district court recently agreed with the plaintiffs, after a full trial, and entered a decision finding the two alcohol advertising laws and a tied-house provision of Missouri’s liquor laws violated the First Amendment rights of the plaintiffs. In doing so, the court held that the laws failed to advance Missouri’s alleged interests in dissuading over-consumption, reducing underage drinking, and maintaining an orderly marketplace. Specifically, in ruling against Missouri, the court found that based on the evidence, advertising bans don’t reduce consumption, nor do they provide a discernable reduction in underage consumption, and that prohibiting certain advertising like price disclosures from occurring outside (or off premises) of retailers but not inside the same retailer was inconsistent.

The order overturning the regulations and the statute was so important and its ruling so transformative that the Missouri Division of Alcohol and Tobacco Control even issued emergency amendments to their regulations to come into compliance with the holding of the district court’s ruling.

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I have not read through the detail of any of this.  I do believe though the Virginia restriction on outside signage about happy hours is an incredibly stupid and antiquated rule.  Today, it appears that every and any bar, restaurant, hotel restaurant can and does fully advertise its happy hour specials on the web.  Its available on all menu's everywhere.  Its highly visible.   At one time there were highly visible searchable websites about happy hours and happy hour specials for any food and beverage place in Virginia. 

In fact if I search on the phrase "happy hour tysons corner" in Google (from anywhere in the US)  the top response is Chef Geoff's.   Bully for him.  Great Search Engine Work.  And by the way when I go to the Chef Geoff's menu for HH...OMG it is enormous.  Looks like a great one at the very least for variety.

If I search for the same phrase in Yelp, I get a different restaurant as first.

Now all things being equal, in most locations if I had that kind of Google visibility it would probably outweigh and drastically outweigh the value of a sign.  But Chef Geoff could probably put a sign or signs in his office development which would work for people in the immediate vicinity and those that shop in the nearby accessible stores; but if he could get a largish visible sign on the Pylon facing  Rte 7, that would be highly effective.  I think there are somewhere in the range of 80,000 cars passing that spot every weekday.  I'd like a sign about my HH wherein 80,000 cars see it every day!!!!

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Irish Liquor Lawyer takes a look at the Chef Geoff case, and good news..... is more upbeat than I was......
Makes the hearing on the 22nd (if the courts are open), potentially more interesting than I had anticipated......
 
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Can Virginia make a plausible defense for its happy hour law?

Because this is not a tied house situation, one of a state’s best defenses is not available to Virginia. So how does Virginia defend its law? 

If the state wants to restrict free speech on these grounds, (curtailing these restrictions leads to overconsumption), then it must prove its case. For example, the state will probably need to provide empirical evidence backing up its assertions. Specifically, if the state is going to usurp the 1st Amendment, it must provide a direct causation between loosening restrictions on advertising and overconsumption of liquor. Often times that evidence may not exist or is hard to prove.

Second, Virginia may need to reach into the temperance bag to prove that the advertising restrictions are necessary to promote temperance. Problematically, temperance is not a strong argument and may be dead as it applies to state laws. I have not seen a case of importance recently that affirms temperance as a plausible defense for a state law. Further, the weak temperance argument would come face to face with a 1st Amendment challenge. Without going into specifics on the Central Hudson 1st Amendment test, any law curtailing free speech requires proving a tough burden. A weak temperance justification would be nearly impossible to justify curtailing 1st Amendment rights.

Temperance is effective really at the local level, where the localities can make the argument to restrict the number and types of licenses and also who gets licensed.

Third, the state would probably need to prove that there weren’t less restrictive measures available to curb overconsumption. This argument would be very hard to prove. In fact, if the state wanted to curb overconsumption it could take measures such as limiting hours of operation or limiting the discounting of drinks. Curbing overconsumption by curbing 1st Amendment rights is a very hard argument to defend.

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Attended the court hearing yesterday. I'm more optimistic now for CGT, who turned up in his whites. (It crossed my mind that was risky because the court rightly or wrongly could consider it a lack of respect. Best not to risk alienating the judge. How long does it take to change?) 
 
Judge was more skeptical of Va ABC than CGT position. Bills are pending in Richmond that if they become law would permit the advertisement of HH pricing, and render moot part of the CGT claim.
Short session this year in Richmond ends 02/23.
Judge simply said he would render decision ASAP.
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On 1/29/2019 at 6:28 PM, Count Bobulescu said:

The CGT Happy Hour Pricing Bill passed the Va House 90 - 04. 

On 2/12/2019 at 7:01 AM, curiouskitkatt said:

SB 726 passed, via Capital News Service

On 2/12/2019 at 10:25 AM, Count Bobulescu said:

Let's hope the Guv isn't so distracted he forgets to sign it.

New happy hour advertising law goes into effect July 1, 2019.  VA ABC site

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OK, this doesn't really have to do with Chef Geoff's except for its location. We were trying to remember the name of the place that was in its New Mexico Ave location before Chef Geoff's opened there. Can anyone help? Thanks!

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With prices as they are in restaurants these days, it's been a while since I had a meal and thought, 'wow, that was really worth the money!'

Well, Chef Geoff's Restaurant Week lunch in the West End sure was.

For $25, I got a big order of truly excellent honey siracha wings, which were big, plump and perfectly cooked, a large burrata and beet salad with grilled shrimp, and a very tasty cholcolate Pot du Creme for dessert. 

Went away quite full...could have just eaten the first and last course, and taken the salad home for dinner...and quite satisfied with the quality as well. 

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