Rogue 24, Blagden Alley in Mount Vernon Square - 2007 James Beard Winner RJ Cooper Departs on Dec 31, 2015 - Closed Jan 15, 2016

[DonRocks]

I am sorry you did not enjoy r24. What discussion are you trying to continue, a debate on value or more on your opinion.  However I am offend that you picked us apart and determined value of products that are not marked up at all higher then other restaurants of our level.

You commented that we serve a half glass pour, in fact the pours for the progression menu are 5 ounces. A full glass of wine. Which is the standard I was taught by the great Jeff Buben. 

 

I don't know what you do for a living, however if I were to publicly ridicule and determine value on your product and proceed to communicate a value of a product form research online you would be offend as well.

 

The margins of restaurants are extremely slim,  costs are high, if we raised prices to equal the cost of living in this country there would not be fine dining restaurants. We pride ourselves on value and service. I would hope that you would understand this.

 

This is the problem with blogs and amateur reviewers. Your critique is an opinion on 1 visit, I extended ourselves to you for a second, gratis, so we can show you that your observations of our services you were provided are in fact no what we do.

 

Its is extremely disappointing and offensive that we as chefs and restauranteurs have to be publicly scrutinized daily and when we extend ourselves to guests, we get the back of the handed.

 

We work everyday on providing the best service and culinary journeys as we can. 

 

Respect our craft. 

 

My offer still stands.

 

rj cooper

I'm running out the door and have no time to address this.

Bravo, mdt, for declining RJ's offer.

There's something fundamentally wrong when mdt - a very experienced diner and fine cook - is criticized for expressing his honest (and competent) opinion; yet, Rogue 24 has this section up on its website - the one with fawning press coverage.

I see one, and only one, offensive post, and that's yours, RJ. I may or may not let it stand - I have to be somewhere in 10 minutes and have no time for this.

[RJ Cooper]

Really Don of course. If I were to do research on whatever service he provides and marks up, he would be as well offended as well"¦"¦I do you one better Don, take it down, If members are to post opinions, then mine should stand as well.

And to be honest, he was talking value, and value that we did not give? Well then please by all means if you spent your hard earned money at Rogue and didn't get the value that was expected please let us make up for that.

I don't know MDT or many people on your site. I don't know his background, but when it comes to VALUE Don, I make up for that.

You think we exaggerated the press on our web?  Funny I could say the same about many restaurants and chefs all over the world.

Opinions and critiques? Professional or Amateur? Now thats a debate that should be on this site.

[DavidO]

Are you really saying you'd like to debate whether only "professional" food critics  should be allowed to post here? 

[mtureck]

I've never seen complaints about reviewers being amateurs when they praise the restaurant.

[RJ Cooper]

Are you really saying you'd like to debate whether only "professional" food critics  should be allowed to post here? 

Of course I did not! What I said there is a line that has been crossed and crossed numerous times in many blogs and sites that people should have an opinion whether good or bad, but should not look to be a critic. Help us get better, leave the other shit to the critics.

I would never invite TS or TK gratis after the wrote about Rogue (if you remember TK didn't enjoy us) however the general public whom spend their hard earned dollars, I would invite in because they deserve to pay for their expectations. And when we don't live up to those expectations we want to provide for the guests.

You all are members of a dining wed site, which I respect vary much, and members should express their thoughts, however, when you start nickeling and dimming a restaurant for selling their goods at X or Y price what is the point? I can go to random restaurant and buy a bottle of wine (you choose) and go on line and find the price to be 60 to 70% cheaper then what it is sold for at random restaurant.

Is that criticism, no, if you know the business like you all say you do, you know restaurant Y buys wines by the glass bottles for x price and the price is usually the cost of bottle for the glass. Its a business not a club.

I've never seen complaints about reviewers being amateurs when they praise the restaurant.

You are right and you are wrong. Look at it in this way: Is it criticism if there is no depth of explanation then "it was okay", "meh" how can we know what we did wrong with no true explanation of the critique? It turns into opinion.  Im no lawyer but if you went into litigation with no explanation of though but Okay or Meh you would not win.

I am not upset with the fact that we did not live up to the expectations of the food, I am because of the perceived value was analyzed by random web retail stores. . Big Difference!!!!

Example: I was in San Diego all week at their annual Food & Wine event. Stayed at a fantastic hotel that was vary generous to all the participants: I had poached eggs with smoked salmon and mixed salad for breakfast everyday. Retail menu price of $22.00"¦..Okay I get it  an egg is $.24 each good salmon $12.95 per lb and salad greens are on the high side 9 bucks a pound"¦"¦okay so  50 cents for the eggs, $2.50 for the salmon maybe 2.50 for the greens, another 20 cents for the vinaigrette"¦"¦total of $5.70  menu price was $22.00  Food Cost of 25.9%"¦okay now take another 30% for labor cost another 25% for operating cost and 10% for miscellaneous. Now you can start to understand prices of restaurants and this was a hotel with room rates over 300 per night. Was there value in the 22.00 egg and salmon dish? Or was it understood that the total package is the value?

I will not make another comment about this again. But I will again say my off still stands.

[mdt]

I am sorry you did not enjoy r24. What discussion are you trying to continue, a debate on value or more on your opinion.  However I am offend that you picked us apart and determined value of products that are not marked up at all higher then other restaurants of our level.

You commented that we serve a half glass pour, in fact the pours for the progression menu are 5 ounces. A full glass of wine. Which is the standard I was taught by the great Jeff Buben. 

I am continuing the discussion of this restaurant that has a good deal of posts, mostly positive I might add.

I stated that we received half glass pours because that is what the sommelier told us we were getting. My wife asked if she could get a half tasting, which we have been able to at other restaurants, and the sommelier told us no need as the tasting is just 4 half glasses. I used that information, which came directly from your staff, to make my value judgement on the cost of the wine pairing, which is the only value portion of the meal that I commented on in my post. If I had been told and received full glasses of wine I would not have posted anything about the value of the pairing. I did ask the question if this was as extreme of a markup as I thought. I figured someone would tell me if it was normal or not.

I don't know what you do for a living, however if I were to publicly ridicule and determine value on your product and proceed to communicate a value of a product form research online you would be offend as well

Not that this makes any difference in what I said, but I have been a consultant for many years and my work is constantly critiqued by my customers who are always evaluating its value. They use all the tools available to them to determine if my rates are appropriate and that they are receiving value for my product. Have you heard of Angie's List? There are many professional services discussed there where folks write about their honest opinions about what they received for the money. I am sure you are constantly evaluating your vendors to ensure that you are receiving value for the product that you are getting, sure maybe you don't post about it, but I am sure that you discuss things with your fellow restaurateurs.

 

The margins of restaurants are extremely slim,  costs are high, if we raised prices to equal the cost of living in this country there would not be fine dining restaurants. We pride ourselves on value and service. I would hope that you would understand this.

Again, I did not question or complain about the service, but I did state, my opinion, that for what we ate we felt that there are other places in dc where we would rather go when spending well over $400 on a dinner for two. This was not a value comment, but on how much we enjoyed the taste of the dishes. Obviously you disagree and that is fine. Was I a little snippy with a "meh" comment on a dish, sure, but that is how I felt when I ate it.

This is the problem with blogs and amateur reviewers. Your critique is an opinion on 1 visit, I extended ourselves to you for a second, gratis, so we can show you that your observations of our services you were provided are in fact no what we do

 

This is from your PM to me which contained slightly different wording than your post, my bold for emphasis.

You should never determine value or critique a restaurant on 1 visit and the fact that you did not participate in the complete experience is also a factor of not a complete observation of our services.

 

I am sorry that you did not like my amateur review, I tried to provide some facts to back up my overall assessment of my dinner. Your offer was received and politely declined as I was not looking for a free meal or special treatment. I posted my honest opinion on my meal. This web site and others like it would be pretty boring if all the comments were raves, most without any details.

 

So you are opposed to raves being posted after one visit, right? What about raves that provide no details on the meal, just a general statement of excellent meal or whatnot. As I mentioned we spent close to $500 on dinner for two, at that price point one shouldn't expect to have to make multiple visits. You are at a price point with the top restaurants in the city, if not the country, which makes you a destination restaurant where folks go on special occasions.

Secondly, are you really saying that you need to have the complete experience to make an true observation of the restaurant? I don't know how to respond to this.

Its is extremely disappointing and offensive that we as chefs and restauranteurs have to be publicly scrutinized daily and when we extend ourselves to guests, we get the back of the handed.

 

We work everyday on providing the best service and culinary journeys as we can. 

 

Respect our craft. 

 

My offer still stands.

 

rj cooper

Extending yourself? Your guests are paying, a good deal of money I might add, for your food and service. You certainly don't have a problem with the raves so you are certainly going to have to deal with the less than stellar opinions.

I would hope that you could respect the opinions of customers that choose to spend their hard earned money at your restaurant.

My decision to decline your offer still stands as well.

[RJ Cooper]

I would hope that you could respect the opinions of customers that choose to spend their hard earned money at your restaurant.

You finally hit the nail on the head!!!! Holly Shit!!!! It is a matter of opinion and we take the opinions and the comments from all of our guests with a great deal of respect and it has influenced and changed the restaurant over the course of the last 3 seasons.

Good job you proved my point.

Thanks.

We value all our guests, and again if your experience was not up to my standards (I don't know if I was there) then we would want to make up for that hard earned money you spent.

[mdt]

You finally hit the nail on the head!!!! Holly Shit!!!! It is a matter of opinion and we take the opinions and the comments from all of our guests with a great deal of respect and it has influenced and changed the restaurant over the course of the last 3 seasons.

Good job you proved my point.

Thanks.

We value all our guests, and again if your experience was not up to my standards (I don't know if I was there) then we would want to make up for that hard earned money you spent.

I should probably let this go, but proved your point? I thought your point was that we amateur reviewers shouldn't be posting our (negative) reviews as we don't know what we are talking about. My original post/review was always an opinion as every post/review on this site is, positive or negative. Nobody on this site is getting paid to write anything on this site. When writing about food it's all opinion as taste is not a hard science and folks will have different views on what they are eating.

The only fact that I posted was about the cost of the wine pairing based on information received from your staff. The opinion was that I thought that part of the meal was rather expensive.

[DonRocks]

I'm glad I let the conversation continue (I had no knowledge of this before I just saw it):

Source: DonRockwell.com

Rogue 24 "” Image: RJ Cooper via DonRockwell.com
Chef R.J. Cooper of Rogue 24 has responded to a post on DonRockwell.com from member "mdt," who noted of a recent meal at the restaurant: "[o]verall the food was good, but very few of the dishes were that exciting or interesting to eat." The chef initially invited mdt back on the house, but when he declined, Cooper took the opportunity to criticize the poster, noting "I don't know what you do for a living, however if I were to publicly ridicule and determine value on your product and proceed to communicate a value of a product form research online you would be offend as well." Needless to say, matters escalated. Follow the link for the ongoing discussion.
Read full article >>

[RJ Cooper]

I should probably let this go, but proved your point? I thought your point was that we amateur reviewers shouldn't be posting our (negative) reviews as we don't know what we are talking about. My original post/review was always an opinion as every post/review on this site is, positive or negative. Nobody on this site is getting paid to write anything on this site. When writing about food it's all opinion as taste is not a hard science and folks will have different views on what they are eating.

The only fact that I posted was about the cost of the wine pairing based on information received from your staff. The opinion was that I thought that part of the meal was rather expensive.

don you have stooped to an all time low"¦.thanks  remove me from a members only private site.

[Toogs]

Long delay in getting to post this, but here it is for what it's worth. Luckily I wrote most of my notes the morning after my meal.

MDT, do you mine stating the date you dined there?  Also I would be curious if you have more details on some of the courses?

[mdt]

MDT, do you mine stating the date you dined there?  Also I would be curious if you have more details on some of the courses?

It was early October. Don't have much more on details other than what I posted, but I will try and answer any questions.

[darkstar965]

Geez.  Speaking only for myself:

- I've been to R24, posted about it once in detail and very much enjoyed it both times.  I'll be back. I think Chef Cooper is a seriously talented chef who has created something unique, very cool and very delicious in DC.

- I think MDT's initial post characterizing the meal and how he thought about it was not only fair and reasonably well supported but also useful to others.  There are balanced (i.e., containing good stuff and bad stuff) critical posts like that one for every restaurant on this website; nearly without exception. Similarly, thought his decision to decline Chef Cooper's offer was made respectfully (very important) and showed good ethics.

- While understandable that any chef/owner will take any criticism personally to some degree, it's a public business and that's par for the course.  To my way of thinking, anyone receiving constructive criticism (not personal, not flaming, etc.) should really consider it, maybe embrace and use it and, if it seems wrong or unfair, gracefully correct or ignore it.

- Highlighting a disagreement by sharing a link to another social media platform as a means of escalating an argument seems unproductive and wrong to me given what I understand this community is supposed to be about: civil, substantive discussion. Just inflames things.  No point in that.

- Disagreeing without being disagreeable is sometimes easier said than done. Something maybe all of us (me very much included) can work to improve. I don't think anyone in this thread meant any ill; it just sort of spiraled out of control that way.

Just my views there above.  Love 'em. Hate 'em.  All good.

Can we go back to our regularly scheduled programming now and stop the nonsense?  Maybe I'm the only one but I want to hear about other members' meals at R24, good and bad.  And, I'd love to keep hearing from Chef Cooper about what he has planned for future menus and promotions.  Same as any restaurant here.  It's nearly Thanksgiving. We're all human. Every human matters and should be treated respectfully, right?  Doesn't cost anything to apologize when appropriate.  To that end, I'm sorry if this post offends anyone as that is absolutely not my intention.

#cravingpeaceandsubstance

[RWBooneJr]

There has been much background discussion about the post on DCDiningGuide.  So, just to clarify: (1) Don has no bearing on what is posted there, it's just roundup of what's going on in the food world; and (2) DCDG posted the attached photo for two reasons: (i) posts look cooler if there is a photo than if there is not a photo; and (ii) I like the photo -- RJ posted it here and it reminds me of a great dinner I had at Rogue 24 with a close friend for her birthday (how can you look at it and not want to at least TRY Rogue 24?).  As for the report itself, it doesn't take sides -- the post just stated what was said (it was directly quoted) and invites people to see the rest.

Anyway, I guess this is an appropriate forum to say that you can see all the news at: DCDiningGuide.com's News Feed. I mean, if people are gonna get pissy about it, they should at least know it's there.

I ask Chef Cooper to tell us what upset him about any of this.

[Choirgirl21]

Well said Darkstar965.

Overall I think this has gotten out of hand. MDT posted his opinion of his meal at Rogue 24. It wasn't glowing, which is his perogative. There was a factual inaccuracy, through no  fault of his own presumably that could have been easily corrected and then the matter could have been dropped. I personally had an excellent meal at Rogue 24 when I went, quite contrary to MDT's and that single review in the midst of my own positive experience and those of many other people on this board would not stop me from going back. It's only if I consistently saw similar reviews that I would start to wonder if standards were dropping, and that would imo be of serious concern to Chef RJ as well.

I understand why a chef/owner would take criticism personally and perhaps things were exacerbated by the focus on the inaccurate information on the price markups on the wine pairings, but I also think it's worth keeping in mind that in the end, some people just aren't going to be into what you do through no fault of your own. I felt about Komi the way MDT felt about Rogue 24. Good meal, but not without faults or courses that fell flat and I haven't spent the money to go back there. Am I alone or nearly alone in my opinion, especially on this board? Yeah, almost certainly. But I don't think the owner of Komi is going to lose sleep over it.

As far as the DCDiningGuide posts go, I didn't understand how that worked and appreciate the clarification there. However, Don's comment that he's "glad he let the conversation continue" followed by the cut and paste of the blog post does seem to celebrate that this site is getting some publicity over the drama. I am nearly certain that's not what Don intended, but I can see how it would offend without additional clarification.

I would normally keep myself out of this sort of thing, but I've had the experience of posting a less than glowing review of a restaurant that was much loved by most of the members on this board and feeling the backlash, in my case from the restaurant owner as well although he chose to do it via PM, and it does make me think twice before I post reviews. I would hate to think that this situation would have that effect on anyone, or might prevent someone from joining the site.

[mdt]

Well said Darkstar965.

Overall I think this has gotten out of hand. MDT posted his opinion of his meal at Rogue 24. It wasn't glowing, which is his perogative. There was a factual inaccuracy, through no  fault of his own presumably that could have been easily corrected and then the matter could have been dropped. I personally had an excellent meal at Rogue 24 when I went, quite contrary to MDT's and that single review in the midst of my own positive experience and those of many other people on this board would not stop me from going back. It's only if I consistently saw similar reviews that I would start to wonder if standards were dropping, and that would imo be of serious concern to Chef RJ as well.

I understand why a chef/owner would take criticism personally and perhaps things were exacerbated by the focus on the inaccurate information on the price markups on the wine pairings

Sorry, but there were no factual inaccuracies in my post. I stated what the price I was charged for 4 half glasses of wine and did some research to find the retail prices of the wines that I was served. Based on that information I stated that I thought that the markup versus retail was higher than the norm, or in my words excessive.

I know I am not the only one that has compared the price of wine at a restaurant versus retail. Based on my amateur knowledge restaurants don't pay retail for their wine or do they? I am sure there are folks here that can answer that question. There have been many discussions on this board about various restaurants wine markups and what places have the best value for the customer. Maybe a separate thread discussing it would be interesting.

Unfortunately RJ's responses will probably prevent other folks from posting less than stellar reviews, which is unfortunate.

[Mark Slater]

I know I am not the only one that has compared the price of wine at a restaurant versus retail. Based on my amateur knowledge restaurants don't pay retail for their wine or do they?

Retail price is normally calculated as wholesale cost X 1.5. Large volume stores may take a smaller profit. Restaurants typically multiply wholesale cost X 3 or more.

[RJ Cooper]

MDT,

I would encourage constrictive criticism as it helps us grow as crafts people. What you wrote was no better then the shit I find on yelp.

Thanks.

[Josh]

MDT,

I would encourage constrictive criticism as it helps us grow as crafts people. What you wrote was no better then the shit I find on yelp.

Thanks.

As I understand this site, it is a community for food lovers to exchange thoughts and opinions on their dining and cooking experiences.  It is not a focus group.

[RWBooneJr]

[mdt]

MDT,

I would encourage constrictive criticism as it helps us grow as crafts people. What you wrote was no better then the shit I find on yelp.

Thanks.

No better? Please, you just want folks to post glowing/positive reviews. I guess, in your opinion, I don't have the right or knowledge to say that I did not enjoy the food? I posted honestly about what we thought of the food we were served. You want constructive criticism from an amateur like me, really? How about reading what I wrote in the beginning of the post, quoted for you below. The dishes that we thought were the weakest were those that involved the diner combining the ingredients, gels, and sauces. Those dishes proved to be unbalanced and in some cases severely muting the flavors of the main ingredient.

Sure the setting and presentation of the dishes was terrific, and I am sure that the ingredients are well sourced, but this is a restaurant and ultimately it's all about what happens when you put the food in your mouth. When looking back at the meal and what we thought were the best dishes they were the ones that did not involve combining the various components on the plate into the proper combination.

You seem so caught up on the fact that I dared to post about the markup of the wine pairing, which turned out to be a result of an error from your staff. I guess you are also offended that I stated that based on my experience I would rather go to other places in the area when spending that kind of money. I guess, we the paying public are not allowed to express that view unless properly certified, whatever that entails.

eta: And in thinking about this more, you call yourself a crafts person. That would be similar to an artist, writer, poet, sculptor, furniture maker and so on. Dining at restaurants then is no different than going to an art gallery or reading books from various authors or visiting various furniture showrooms. After those events if I said that I preferred to spend my money on books by authors A and B over C is that any different than saying that I would rather spend my money at restaurant A and B over C? I could write about my views on what I saw and/or read. I don't need to provide them any constructive criticism. It's food, it's subjective, not everyone is going to like every restaurant.

[Bart]

MDT,

I would encourage constrictive criticism as it helps us grow as crafts people. What you wrote was no better then the shit I find on yelp.

Thanks.

That seems a little harsh and it's a lot different than what's on yelp.

My wife and I ate at Rogue in the summer of 2012 and loved it.  We got the wine pairings and were not disappointed in the pours.  In fact, my glass was topped off once or twice when I finished a glass too early for the pace of the food.  However, I totally understand where MDT is coming from.  Nowadays, the price of wine in most places qualifies as gouging and it's nearly making me switch to beer or (gasp) have no alcohol with the meal.  I was at the Ritz in Pentagon City the other day and (IIRC) the cheapest wine by the glass was $12 and the most expensive was $22!  I went with a $7 beer instead.  In fact, I had 2 which was still cheaper than my wife's single glass of chardonay.

And when I think about the fantastic meal we had at Rasika last spring, it's always tainted by the fact that the cheapest (and I think only) chardonay on the menu was $60!  (my wife likes chardonay and it was her birthday, cut me some slack!!).  Getting off topic here, but I do sympathize with MDT in understanding how the price of wine can really color your view of a place.

[RJ Cooper]

You seem so caught up on the fact that I dared to post about the markup of the wine pairing, which turned out to be a result of an error from your staff. 

Now what I'm hung up is on the fact you day you say you give criticism, did not know meh was that.

And you hide behind a screen name. Lovely debate. I have better things to do with my energy and time. Like make our guests feel comfortable and give them them beat we can. We have many and many on this board.

You can post that rogue 24 suck donkey shit because: but please give precise criticism not "ok" "meh". Or this price of bottle was x. I guarantee that your captain asked you thorough out your evening if everything was fine and you said yes. Because if you did not. We would be having a discussion about how we fixed the problem. Communicate on the spot and the problem would have been fixed.

How many refills did you have through out your progressive menu?

[mdt]

You seem so caught up on the fact that I dared to post about the markup of the wine pairing, which turned out to be a result of an error from your staff. I

Now what I'm hung up is on the fact you day you say you give criticism, did not know meh was that.

And you hide behind a screen name. Lovely debate. I have better things to do with my energy and time. Like make our guests feel comfortable and give them them beat we can. We have many and many on this board.

You can post that rogue 24 suck donkey shit because: but please give precise criticism not "ok" "meh". Or this price of bottle was x. I guarantee that your captain asked you thorough out your evening if everything was fine and you said yes. Because if you did not. We would be having a discussion about how we fixed the problem. Communicate on the spot and the problem would have been fixed.

How many refills did you have through out your progressive menu?

Funny how after I politely declined your gratis offer you decided to respond negatively to my posts.

I admitted that my "meh" comment was snippy, but I had enough other information in the post to justify what I thought of the meal. I guess my positive comments on many of the dishes are invalid as well. I never once doubted that others have had wonderful meals at your restaurant and that others will in the future. I never slammed your restaurant or you or your staff, but all you have done is try to discredit my views because they were not 100% positive.

I guess you had your buddy Troogs ask what date I was there to find out who I am. I considered posting my real name, but considering how you have responded here I don't think it's wise.

So now by questioning the number of refills that I had, you are trying to claim that I got more value on the wine than my original statement. Well IIRC, I received one top up when I finished my half pour before the 4 courses it was paired with were finished.

[Cooter]

Wait...there's a donkey shit course on the menu? That you suck? I don't want to tell you how to do your job, chef, but you might want to think about stopping at 23 courses.

[RJ Cooper]

Funny MDT

I only responded this way because the lack of information you provided.

Enjoy your life. I don't have friends on this board. I'll end it by saying eat well and enjoy life. Your comments are noted and valued however if you would provide real information it would help us.

In the future you may want to help instead of antagonize.

MR Rockwell. This will be the end. There will be more information provided to this site by rogue24 or gypsy soul.

MDT. Attack my character. Thanks.

[Toogs]

I guess you had your buddy Troogs ask what date I was there to find out who I am. I considered posting my real name, but considering how you have responded here I don't think it's wise.

I don't know RJ and he has not communicated with me outside of this thread other than a brief drunken conversation at Vidalia years ago.

I asked for details because your review was not useful.  Comments such as "meh, "Just okay," "I liked it but my wife thought it was just okay" do not provide a useful level of detail that can be applied by potential diners in deciding if they should go, nor do they help the restaurant to determine if something needs to be changed.

I asked about the date because I felt, upon reading your review, that it was long ago, and that you had lost the necessary level of detail from your memory banks to make a useful post.  I also secretly hoped RJ would see the date and remember a night or two around that time when things weren't up to par for whatever reason, and you two would find some common ground.

I'm not sure why you dragged me into this.  You sound like someone whose experience was poisoned by perceiving you were ripped off on the wine price, and perhaps that clouded the rest of the night.  It happens--perceived value can easily enhance or wreck a meal.

[DonRocks]

[Folks, I'm trying my best not to step in. Please keep all comments to the subject at hand. I understand people are getting frustrated, possibly angry, but no personal attacks are allowed. Cheers, Rocks.]

[mdt]

I don't know RJ and he has not communicated with me outside of this thread other than a brief drunken conversation at Vidalia years ago.

I asked for details because your review was not useful.  Comments such as "meh, "Just okay," "I liked it but my wife thought it was just okay" do not provide a useful level of detail that can be applied by potential diners in deciding if they should go, nor do they help the restaurant to determine if something needs to be changed.

I asked about the date because I felt, upon reading your review, that it was long ago, and that you had lost the necessary level of detail from your memory banks to make a useful post.  I also secretly hoped RJ would see the date and remember a night or two around that time when things weren't up to par for whatever reason, and you two would find some common ground.

I'm not sure why you dragged me into this.  You sound like someone whose experience was poisoned by perceiving you were ripped off on the wine price, and perhaps that clouded the rest of the night.  It happens--perceived value can easily enhance or wreck a meal.

We had already made our opinion of the meal on before we got in the cab to go home. It was not until days later that I discovered the price of the wines when looking up information on them to make note of what were served.

I guess you have issue with non-detailed posts that state meals were "great" or "the best ever" with no supporting details. Whatever, I posted enough info to convey what we felt about the meal. Sorry the post was not up to your standards, maybe we should have guidelines so future posts provide the appropriate level of detail to be of value to future diners.

It really amazes me that one less than glowing review, after many positive ones, would cause so much trouble.

[Toogs]

Ha.  You give your opinion of the restaurant--you're entitled to do so.

I'm giving my opinion of your post--I'm entitled to do so.

Making a baseless accusation?  No one's entitled to do that.

[mdt]

Funny MDT

I only responded this way because the lack of information you provided.

Enjoy your life. I don't have friends on this board. I'll end it by saying eat well and enjoy life. Your comments are noted and valued however if you would provide real information it would help us.

In the future you may want to help instead of antagonize.

MR Rockwell. This will be the end. There will be more information provided to this site by rogue24 or gypsy soul.

MDT. Attack my character. Thanks.

Honestly, what do you consider helpful? Outside of the noted snippy comment what did I say that was so offensive? Do you expect diners to say that a dish could have used more salt? More lemon? Addition of some other ingredient? It's food, taste is subjective.

[mdt]

Ha.  You give your opinion of the restaurant--you're entitled to do so.

I'm giving my opinion of your post--I'm entitled to do so.

Making a baseless accusation?  No one's entitled to do that.

What baseless accusation did I make?

[Toogs]

I already answered that, but you said "I guess you had your buddy Troogs ask what date I was there to find out who I am."

I am assuming since no one named Troogs posts here, and I asked about the date, that you are referring to me.

[RJ Cooper]

It really amazes me that one less than glowing review, after many positive ones, would cause so much trouble.

Because MDT we my team at rogue want to better ourselves. We already changed out description policy with your comments. Maybe we could know what else so we can be what your expectations were.

I'd like to know, for consistency purposes and if I wasn't there what happened.

It's called knowledgable criticism. I am sure when you were in school and got a disparaging grade you wanted to know why? And okay and meh would not have been good enough.

[Josh]

What a dispiriting thread this has turned into.  I "liked" mdt's initial post, because I felt like he took the time to describe his experience of the meal.  Was every course dissected? No, but enough description was given to understand his opinion and experience.  Yes, there was a "meh" here, and a generic statement of opinion there, but all in all, I thought the quality of the post was on par with most of what else is written around these parts.

The level of vitriol being thrown his way due to this one post is ridiculous.  Mr. Cooper, I appreciate the desire to have substantive critiques in order to improve, but really, if that's what you're looking for, the attitude you have displayed in this exchange is not the way to accomplish it.  I imagine that had you prodded the poster with probing questions about specific aspects of his review that bothered you, (perhaps via a private message) you may have gotten the answers you wanted.

[RJ Cooper]

What a dispiriting thread this has turned into. I "liked" mdt's initial post, because I felt like he took the time to describe his experience of the meal. Was every course dissected? No, but enough description was given to understand his opinion and experience. Yes, there was a "meh" here, and a generic statement of opinion there, but all in all, I thought the quality of the post was on par with most of what else is written around these parts.

The level of vitriol being thrown his way due to this one post is ridiculous. Mr. Cooper, I appreciate the desire to have substantive critiques in order to improve, but really, if that's what you're looking for, the attitude you have displayed in this exchange is not the way to accomplish it. I imagine that had you prodded the poster with probing questions about specific aspects of his review that bothered you, (perhaps via a private message) you may have gotten the answers you wanted.

True however he initiated the "dialog" right of wrong. The idea of a critique is to give information. WIFE THOUGHT IT WAS OK. MEH ect is not information. It's ambiguous commentary. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Enough. Thanks all enjoy your turkeys.

[lackadaisi]

Knowing MDT for many years, as many of us have, his review gave me a lot of information about his opinion of his experience, which actually differed from mine. Reading the vitriol that has been spurred by his mixed description of his takeaways and what lingered in his mind after, on the other hand, has been truly enlightening. I hope to never take criticism as poorly as has been demonstrated here, as frankly it is almost scary.

[RJ Cooper]

Knowing MDT for many years, as many of us have, his review gave me a lot of information about his opinion of his experience, which actually differed from mine. Reading the vitriol that has been spurred by his mixed description of his takeaways and what lingered in his mind after, on the other hand, has been truly enlightening. I hope to never take criticism as poorly as has been demonstrated here, as frankly it is almost scary.

Again we used his criticism as a tool and change a policy  the rest is opinion and ambiguous   meh?  why? what part? give me some depth of thought.

Never mind  you all enjoy have a fun weekend.

We relish criticism and learn from the good and the bad. Ambiguity is not a learning tool.

[DavidO]

Honestly, for what it's worth I will say that we went to Rogue once a couple of years ago and it was interesting but not superlative (if you want specifics, I will say that as far as I know, no other chef in history has tried to make a dessert that resembles the flavor of soap, and there is a reason for that).  We were considering going back for a special occasion, and the posts on this thread lately have not made me think that would be a good idea.

[RJ Cooper]

Defense of ones craft is not Nobel? We just want to learn from our mistakes. Honorably.

[RJ Cooper]

Oh and by the way. Look up Mugaritz to see the bar of soup.

If you don't try and fail you won't succeed.

[lackadaisi]

Again we used his criticism as a tool and change a policy the rest is opinion and ambiguous meh? why? what part? give me some depth of thought.

Never mind you all enjoy have a fun weekend.

We relish criticism and learn from the good and the bad. Ambiguity is not a learning tool.

First, he didn't have an enjoyable experience, and that means a lot. Over the past 8 years that I have known him, I have read many of his reviews, spoken to him about many meals, even sharing some, i have learned a lot about his taste, so it means something to me. That doesn't mean that I would agree, as we dont always, but that is why it is good to have this kind of historical relationship.

Second, he loves the decor and thinks the kitchen in the center is cool (as do I). But some people want a visible kitchen so they can watch food prep, like at Rose's. If that is what you are looking for, this wouldn't be the right place. I agree with that completely.

Third, he likes fully composed dishes and didn't find that here. My step-father often has this complaint and would find it useful. I don't really, but whatever.

Fourth, he felt the wine pairings were not a good deal. He explained exactly why he felt that way. It seems he may not have had the standard service in this regard. He can't be blamed for that. But I know him well enough to know that he isn't some chump that thinks the glass should be filled to the rim.

Fifth, he listed the menu and described some dishes, which is very helpful to give people an idea of what to expect.

Sixth, he thought the oyster was overpowered by the cucumber. Clear criticism.

Seventh, he really liked the avocado dish and thought the presentation was cool.

Eight, he thought the potato and lime gel overpowered the sepia and smoke. Again, very clear criticism.

Ninth, he thought the urchin was good and creative. I certainly wouldn't have understood that the coffee was crumbled but not for his description. This one really piqued my interest.

Tenth, the pigtails were in springroll form and good. Although he liked it, I don't much care for spring rolls, and I seem to recall that he does, so this tells me it is probably very good but I doubt it would be my favorite as it is more his bailiwick.

Eleventh, although he had a predisposition against the snail dish, it was good and interesting enough for him to enjoy it at least moderately.

Sure there were a lot of words that weren't that descriptive, but he clearly wasn't trying to write a masterpiece. He was trying to give his impression and some take aways. I think he did that extremely well. It would be wonderful if all posts had this much detail and were written by people who have allowed us to have so much insight into thier tastes (note, I only know MDT though DR and DR-related events).

[Tujague]

Again we used his criticism as a tool and change a policy the rest is opinion and ambiguous meh? why? what part? give me some depth of thought.

Never mind you all enjoy have a fun weekend.

We relish criticism and learn from the good and the bad. Ambiguity is not a learning tool.

I get the sense it's not any kind of ambiguity that's getting to you, but the expression of ambivalence--which is what "meh" conveys. Ambivalence is often driven by intangibles, and it can be the hardest kind of criticism to receive, since it suggests more indifference than dislike. Nevertheless, ambivalence is not invalid criticism, as you seem to be suggesting. Not every critique is going to teach you something, and making your own learning as what validates a critique is its own kind of unfair subjectivity. What I don't understand, however, is your seeming determination to squander the otherwise profound good will you've often received here over this.

[B.A.R.]

There was nothing in the original review that should have illicited this mean-spirited diatribe. His post, in my opinion, was substantive. Everything after his declination of a gracious, complimentary return visit? *meh*

[RJ Cooper]

RESPECT THE CRAFT.

[DonRocks]

RESPECT THE CRAFT.

[porcupine]

Like make our guests feel comfortable and give them them beat we can.

I'm sure you meant to type "give them the best we can" but after all this nonsense I read your typo as "give them the beating we can."  Last summer I ate at Rogue 24 and the experience was so transcendent that I did a 180 in the way I feel about experimental food.  After reading this exchange I've done another 180.  RJ, you are one of the great culinary talents in this city.  Stick to what you do best.

[RJ Cooper]

RESPECT THE CRAFT!!! MEH. COMMUNICATE AND WE WILL BEND OVER BACKWARDS FOR OUR GUESTS. YEAH ROCKWELL ALL CAPS. AND IT SHOULD STAY THIS WAY. WE WANT TO GIVE AND MAKE GUESTS HAPPY. WE WANT TO LEARN FROM OUR MISTAKES AND GROW. WE WANT TO STRIVE AND BE THE BEST.

IM sitting at a diner a vary popular well branded local Chain with two beautiful 7 year olds. Ava did not like her eggs she ordered them soft 2 eggs and sausage. They came out hard with 1 sausage. Oh and the pancakes didn't make it as well. However as a 7 year old she communicated and they fixed the problem. It's hospitality and we want to give it. From a 7 year old to anyone who walks in our door.

My only real bitch is the fact of no real fat to grasp on what we did with the food. I get the wine we changed that immediately after 2 plus years in business. Thanks MDT we will now look and change that language.

PEACE. THIS IS NOW DONE!

ENJOY THE HOLIDAYS.

[Josh]

Oh and by the way. Look up Mugaritz to see the bar of soup.

If you don't try and fail you won't succeed.

This reminded me of the dinner my wife and I had at Akelare in San Sebastian.  The first thing you receive upon sitting down is a tray of "toiletries."  An onion sponge, tomato basil hand soap (in a pump dispenser), a bottle of mouthwash with little plastic cup (turned out to be a cocktail with campari), a container of face cream (creamy cheese), and a plastic packet of bath salts (dried shrimp bits in an edible bag).  Pretty cool, and set the tone for a wild ride of a lunch.

[RJ Cooper]

All take my advice drop your pants and slide on the ice