Chow.com

[Mark Slater]

Here's the announcement:

Clickety

[Jacques Gastreaux]

The result acheived by Chowhound is probably out of the question for those food related websites that choose to incorporate as not-for-profit entities.

[StephenB]

I have read the announcement. What are they announcing?

The Chowhound "team" has a rod up their ass, and they've sanitized their board to the extent that only the illiterates run free. Over there, the best way to get censored is to be interesting. What is more, the team members refuse to identify themselves or to stand up for their arbitrary decisions.

[Meaghan]

zzzzzz

[CrescentFresh]

zzzzzz

Couldn't agree more. To me, chowhound was always about as useful as its user interface. Basura.

[Joe H]

Leff began to promote the one million users of CH a year or more ago. For me, incredible numbers that he was promoting. I even had a post questioning them but it was, of course, deleted. I thought he was doing this to attract advertising; I never dreamed that he was trying to sell the board and was using the numbers in part towards this end. I just hope that CNET has done their due diligence. If he had a million people a day-or a week-or a month-clicking on CH then more power to him. But I suspect the real number is a tiny fraction of this.

In truth CH is heavily weighted towards NY and CA. There are other local boards more popular than CH outside of these areas. I am also certain that some from eG would have a legitimate argument for the NY component of my above contention. Certainly, the European boards for eG have long received more views and more intelligent discussion than anything on CH's all encompassing "International Board." Outside of eG there are numerous message boards that are enormously popular for certain areas. Bonjour Paris for Paris as an example in English; CH's Chicago board almost left en masse and started their own board similar to this one; it still is very much alive and Leff's CH board never, seemingly, recovered.

Regardless, I wish him well. He was the second after Jane and Michael Stern's Roadfood site but he has actively promoted CH and this, by way of an understatement, is worth a lot. But let's be VERY clear about this: he didn't start this type of food site-THEY did. Their first volume of Roadfood dates back to about 1980 or 81. Leff started over 15 years later. I do want to give Leff credit: he tirelessly promoted CH. He alone is responsible for its success. Jane and Michael's site succeeded because of their books along with their monthly column in Gourmet and their nationally syndicated newspaper articles, not because they were out promoting it as the absolute best foodie message board as Leff did (although he resisted this appellation). By the way, Jason Perlow's "goodbye" is still on CH. I've posted the link in the next message.

I sincerely wish Leff the best of luck. To him, as to us, food was and is the absolute end of existence. His board for its first four or five years was incredible. There was no censorship, he allowed my numerous essays and many others'. It was because of this "free floating" form that CH attracted me and many writers and essayists. At some point he decided to take back control of the site (which, after all was HIS site) and this led to the schism with Perlow and later with others including myself. But he accomplished a lot. An awful lot. I never met Jim Leff. But I suspect I would have like him. I also suspect that I would have opened a serious bottle of wine wanting him to be able to know some of the pleasure that I might have known. He was and is my own kind of person. Our own kind of person. As least as far as sharing an obsession with restaurants and food. I'm ignoring the censorship and authoritarian mandate of his site for the last two years and focusing on its first five or six which, for me, were Chowhound's best. I believe that all of us owe a part of this board to him.

And to Jane and Michael who came before him.

Edited March 12, 2006 by Joe H

[Joe H]

Jason Perlow's last post is STILL on Chowhound, "Ice Station Tenafly Signing Off" from '01. This is the link for it:

http://www.chowhound.com/boards/sitetalk/messages/4300.html

Needless to say when I and many others left CH Leff thought it "prudent" to delete our last posts. For whatever reason Perlow's still survives.

[JPW]

Jason Perlow's last post is STILL on Chowhound, "Ice Station Tenafly Signing Off"  from '01.  This is the link for it: 

http://www.chowhound.com/boards/sitetalk/messages/4300.html

Needless to say when I and many others left CH Leff thought it "prudent" to delete our last posts.  For whatever reason Perlow's still survives.

C'mon man. Think it out. Every day Leff can point to it and say "See, eGullet was my idea"!

At the least,(edited because I realize that my buddy Bill Samuels is whispering louder in my left ear than my friend Mr. Taste, Decent is whispering in my right.

[Joe H]

eG was there BEFORE Perlow came aboard; but it was after him that I believe it began to take off. Again, I want to put this in what I believe is the correct perspective: Leff came AFTER Jane and Michael. eG achieved its fame after CH. Of course to carry this through Calvin Trilling MUST be credited and, if we are really being honest we can trace some of the absolute most intense interest back to Duncan Hines. Then, of course, there was this man called Escoiffier.... I'm also certain there was someone in Rome....ok, Mesopotamia that knew a place that had unreal kabobs!

[JPW]

Joe, I think that that is the single funniest thing I have ever seen you write.

Ciao

[hm212]

Isn't Chowhound just another example of something with great potential that some idiot screwed up for a variety of reasons, but has a great marketing machine.

[johnb]

Jason Perlow's last post is STILL on Chowhound, "Ice Station Tenafly Signing Off"  from '01.  This is the link for it: 

http://www.chowhound.com/boards/sitetalk/messages/4300.html

Needless to say when I and many others left CH Leff thought it "prudent" to delete our last posts.  For whatever reason Perlow's still survives.

Not only that, but you may notice the first reply to that post was from Leff, who wished him well in the eG endeavor, and even provided a link to the competitor site. BTW, FWIW, he (Leff) refers to it as being a "new" site, not an existing site that Perlow is joining.

Of course he also accused them of culling their mailing list from Chowhound. Which is probably true.

[Jacques Gastreaux]

Is this an example of the old adage in action: Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn once in a while.

[ahr]

He was the second after Jane and Michael Stern's Roadfood site but he has actively promoted CH and this, by way of an understatement, is worth a lot. But let's be VERY clear about this:  he didn't start this type of food site-THEY did...

...eG was there BEFORE Perlow came aboard; but it was after him that I believe it began to take off.

Food-board progeniture, as I think I know it:

In the beginning, there was Roadfood, the book; CH predates RF as a web site. Jason started eG with Steven Shaw, another CH evacuee, who already maintained a web site of a different name featuring his own writing, but not a message board. Out of eG came OA, MF, DR, and boards yet unborn—and good luck to the lot of ‘em.

[shogun]

heh....C|Net.....

[qwertyy]

The technology may improve, but I've no doubt that the worst part of that site will remain: the fact that every time a query asks for something in DC or on Metro, at least half of the responses direct you to somewhere in the distant suburbs.

"It's, like, TOTALLY worth the $30 cab ride from the Largo stop, dude. Or just buy a car--you'll thank me!!"

[Pappy]

The technology may improve, but I've no doubt that the worst part of that site will remain: the fact that every time a query asks for something in DC or on Metro, at least half of the responses direct you to somewhere in the distant suburbs.

"It's, like, TOTALLY worth the $30 cab ride from the Largo stop, dude. Or just buy a car--you'll thank me!!"

Chowhound has lots of faults, but I'm not sure this is the greatest one. If a poster is asking for "great" pho, or dim sum, or vietnamese, or korean, salvadorean, etc. it isn't irresponsible to let them know that the best examples often reside outside the city.

It's certainly no more annoying than answering every query with the same three responses, 1) Palena, 2) Ray's and 3) Firefly.

[qwertyy]

Chowhound has lots of faults, but I'm not sure this is the greatest one.  If a poster is asking for "great" pho, or dim sum, or vietnamese, or korean, salvadorean, etc. it isn't irresponsible to let them know that the best examples often reside outside the city. 

Even if the poster has made clear that s/he has absolutely NO WAY to get to said suburban destination? That's just not at all helpful--unless I'm looking for good pho/dim sum/whathaveyou only in an encyclopedic or intellectual sense, rather than a I-want-this-for-dinner sense.

Right now, for instance, there's a thread where the original poster asked if the quality of Ethiopian food--specifically in the Virgina suburbs--has fallen. Half the responses said that in fact, no, the quality of Ethiopian food on U Street has not fallen at all. How is that helpful?

[crackers]

Interesting article in the NYT? implies that Cnet itself may be on the verge of being bought.

Perhaps the site most discussed and analyzed as a potential major takeover is Cnet Networks, the operator of News.com, a site focusing on business and technology news. The price tag for Cnet, which is publicly traded, with a market value of around $2 billion, would be $2.5 billion to $3 billion, said Mark May, an analyst for Needham & Company who covers Internet services and digital media.

There have been a couple of recent interviews with Leff:

this one... from "You Gonna Eat That?" and this one . . . in the Village Voice.

And summing it up, Fat Guy said on eG yesterday:

I think the notion of buying and selling web communities is flawed. You can sell a database, you can sell a brand name, you can sell a mailing list, but you can't sell a community. While there's some inertia in anything, the reality is that if people wake up one day and don't like what they see, they'll leave or, worse, they'll become hostile and cause no end of trouble. There's no real cost to switching communities.

Meanwhile, Jason Perlow remains ominously silent. And absent.

[JPW]

While there's some inertia in anything, the reality is that if people wake up one day and don't like what they see, they'll leave or, worse, they'll become hostile and cause no end of trouble. There's no real cost to switching communities.

Well, at least he speaks from experience.

[Lydia R]

What is more, the team members refuse to identify themselves or to stand up for their arbitrary decisions.

There's a free-access article in today's on-line Wall Street Journal that discusses some of the infrastructure changes happening late next week over at Chowhound and larger changes at C-Net in the next month.

Laptop Critics:Where the Web's Foodies Dish

Whether Chowhound's diehard community of food junkies will accept the overhaul -- which includes a new requirement that users register to post messages -- remains to be seen. "It is not our intention to alienate anyone," says Mike Tatum, CNET's general manager of lifestyle, noting that the new site adopts many user suggestions. Adds Chowhound co-founder Jim Leff: "It still has that hip vibe to it. That's what makes me psyched, and that's why I'm still here running it."

Not sure if it was fair of the author to "test" Chowhound by asking the board for Acton, MA restaurant recommendations and hoping they'd mention his personal favorite.

[Pool Boy]

It'll be interesting to see what the new site looks like. Anything is better than the existing message software that they use. But it'll be even more interesting to see how this change affects that community.

[bilrus]

I found it interesting that part of this CNET project was the acquisition of the magazine CHOW, which I found sometimes annoying and sometimes interesting, if always a little shallow.

They have ceased production of the magazine (which came out at wildly irregular intervals) and will solely be producing online content for CNET. It appears that Chowhound will be the message board for the combined site.

[Joe H]

Leff long advertised/promoted/sold hundreds of thousands of viewers/hits/posters each month/day/year. The actual number of whichever/whatever/whoever is a fraction of this. I have long believed that the number of people who read boards like this/Chowhound/eGullet/Roadfood/Opinionated About/Mouthfuls are considerably fewer than what many believe. Each of these sites, Chowhound included, have a hard core that contribute a disproportionate percentage of the posts.

[mdt]

Leff long advertised/promoted/sold hundreds of thousands of viewers/hits/posters each month/day/year. The actual number of whichever/whatever/whoever is a fraction of this. I have long believed that the number of people who read boards like this/Chowhound/eGullet/Roadfood/Opinionated About/Mouthfuls are considerably fewer than what many believe. Each of these sites, Chowhound included, have a hard core that contribute a disproportionate percentage of the posts.

I would say that more than you think read sites as they commonly show up in Google searches.

There was a recent study that I heard about on the radio (NPR I believe) that people are spending more time online than watching TV or listening to the radio, but advertising revenues are not nearly the same. Will things change? Maybe CNET is just getting in on something that they will be able to market for advertising.

[hillvalley]

I would say that more than you think read sites as they commonly show up in Google searches.

This is just a rough estimate but I would bet at least a third of our new members these days have found us via Google/Internet searches. And who knows how many lurkers out there found us that way? When we first started most of our new members came from other sites or media mentions but now that that has slowed down, other than good old fashioned word of mouth, many of our newer members have found us via Google.

[DonRocks]

I can't say anything about other websites, but I'd be happy to simply cut-and-paste the statistics for this website for all to see. All I look at is "posts per day" (100-200 on weekdays) and "registrations per day" (2-3 on average)." In terms of web statistics, I don't even know which figure means what - I don't really understand what a "view" is versus a "hit" or a "visitor" or a "unique visit." I haven't looked at these statistics in months because quite honestly I've forgotten the password to access the control panel (Shogun?), and it doesn't matter to me what they are because I have no vision or plans for this website other than to keep winging it as we go. I've thought about splitting the Baltimore postings into a separate forum, but that's more for organization rather than any type of "expansion plan." (Is that a good idea or not? PM me and let me know. Cheers, Rocks.)

[KeithA]

I can't say anything about other websites, but I'd be happy to simply cut-and-paste the statistics for this website for all to see. All I look at is "posts per day" (100-200 on weekdays) and "registrations per day" (2-3 on average)." In terms of web statistics, I don't even know which figure means what - I don't really understand what a "view" is versus a "hit" or a "visitor" or a "unique visit." I haven't looked at these statistics in months because quite honestly I've forgotten the password to access the control panel (Shogun?), and it doesn't matter to me what they are because I have no vision or plans for this website other than to keep winging it as we go. I've thought about splitting the Baltimore postings into a separate forum, but that's more for organization rather than any type of "expansion plan." (Is that a good idea or not? PM me and let me know. Cheers, Rocks.)

The best indicator to see how many individuals are viewing the site each day (not including repeat visits) is unique visitors. To just see how many times anyone (including repeats) opens any page on the site is the views. That being said, I think you are right though that more important is posts per day because actual participation, not just reading posts is what fuels this board by constantly creating new content to read and comment upon. But like someone said earlier, most posts on this site seem to be disproportionately from a group of about 30-50 people.

[Jacques Gastreaux]

I don't visit Chowhound very often but I just went there to see if they had unveiled the new iterface yet (they have not). How long have they been using banner ads over there?

[cheezepowder]

Chowhound's new format is up. Large font.

[zoramargolis]

Chowhound's new format is up. Large font.

As a former Chowhounder, I have received e-mails from several friends who stayed at CH after I gave up on it for a variety of reasons. Most of my chow pals seem to dislike the new software intensely. While the old clunky, slow format was one of the big reasons I had for leaving CH, it's now very difficult to get an overview of recent past threads--one must bookmark a thread in order to see right away if a new response has been added. I didn't spend enough time looking at the new site to form a strong negative opinion. It is the content and the tight-assed forum hosting that are my biggest problem with CH.

[crackers]

Most of my chow pals seem to dislike the new software intensely.

For the life of me I can't understand how anybody could think the new format is much of an improvement. It keeps my main irritant: the lack of thread consolidation, and then makes it even more difficult to scroll through the huge number of threads that are generated by this lack of consolidation. Any given restaurant can have dozens of different threads, all saying the same thing. Other irritants: there is even less transparancy about who is moderating and how, no date/time stamps on posts, no links embedded in text, no photos, etc. They say it's a work in progress and some features will be added later. But they tried to re-invent the wheel on an old jalopy and ended up with a new corporate car with a full set of flat tires.

[perrik]

At least I can say one positive thing about the new Chowhound software. My secondary computer is a 7-year old iBook that I like to use for old games, and thus is usually booted into Mac OS 9. The old CH forums would take several minutes to load each page, or would simply freeze the elderly version of IE that I use. The new forum software loads quickly even on this antique laptop.

Otherwise I'm hard pressed to think of any favorable comments on the change.

(FYI, dr.com loads just fine in this configuration)

[bookluvingbabe]

That's what a cash infusion from CNET.COM bought??? Don, don't take the money if it ever comes around!

Shit.... The old stuff was bad but this is just as amaturish....

[Pool Boy]

Weird.

Is this the large print Reader's Digest version of a foodie board?

I am not sure this is much of an improvement over their old format, IMO.

What people want out of a forum boils down to a few things... Ease of navigability. Ability to see posts with new threads quickly. Ability to jump to new posts in a thread. Ability to quickly get to what your looking for, essentially. The new Chowhound software does not really seem to do that.

[Bob Wells]

Weird.

Is this the large print Reader's Digest version of a foodie board?

I am not sure this is much of an improvement over their old format, IMO.

What people want out of a forum boils down to a few things... Ease of navigability. Ability to see posts with new threads quickly. Ability to jump to new posts in a thread. Ability to quickly get to what your looking for, essentially. The new Chowhound software does not really seem to do that.

I just saw that they will have a Hot Posts feature. That's always how I have used Chowhound.

I did just try the Search feature and it worked well.

[oliveDC]

Read about the new site, which rolls out next week, here. Will be interesting to see what it turns into.

[bilrus]

Read about the new site, which rolls out next week, here. Will be interesting to see what it turns into.

I was a subscriber (for free I think) to Chow, which only published two or three issues and I found it amusing, as it offered a different attitude than most other food mags. It is a shame that they tied their bandwagon to such a stodgy, uninteresting food board like Chowhound.

It will be interesting to see if CHOW hips up Chowhound or vice versa.

[CrescentFresh]

I was a subscriber (for free I think) to Chow, which only published two or three issues and I found it amusing, as it offered a different attitude than most other food mags. It is a shame that they tied their bandwagon to such a stodgy, uninteresting food board like Chowhound.

It will be interesting to see if CHOW hips up Chowhound or vice versa.

It's probably because I'm stodgy and uninteresting, Bill, but I had the exact opposite reaction as you did about Chow. I had a few free issues and was completely turned off. Seemed to be more about what's best to wear while eating rather than anything to do with eating and cooking.

[bilrus]

It's probably because I'm stodgy and uninteresting, Bill, but I had the exact opposite reaction as you did about Chow. I had a few free issues and was completely turned off. Seemed to be more about what's best to wear while eating rather than anything to do with eating and cooking.

It was definitely trying too hard and the ratio of crap to interesting was pretty high. But there were normally a few things I found that interested me.

[oliveDC]

I thought the photos in Chow were a turn-off. I know they were trying to be "different" but I like my food porn air brushed...

[Lydia R]

Sadly, it seems that "the team" is still on duty. The LA Police Detective with the show on Food Network posted this note yesterday about his recent experience...

I answered some mean postings on a web site (not e-gullet) defending my appearence and my show. I also answered a ton of really nice posts concerning the show and gave posters some insight as to the production of the show, choices made etc..

We all my posts were deleted by Mgt of the site and I was asked not to respond to any more postings on the subject. I told them I wanted to respond to defend myself against any flat out slanderish posts from trolls and the like. They responded, that people had a right to critisize me, my apperance or anything else, to which I agree. They also informed me that I did not have a right to respond to the postings and defend anny comments made.....hhmm...

What a dissapointment at the managment of the site (CNET) and a blow to free speech....people wonder why celebs and public persona never come to post on public message forums...maybe its just, they are not allowed too!

Posted here because I think it's more about their Board than Chris Cognac's show.

[Joe H]

Sadly, it seems that "the team" is still on duty. The LA Police Detective with the show on Food Network posted this note yesterday about his recent experience...Posted here because I think it's more about their Board than Chris Cognac's show.

ALL of my posts on the D. C. board are deleted. ALL of my posts on the international boards are allowed to stand. Regardless, I have lost almost all interest in Chowhound. For five+ years I was a part of a community and a kind of family there where Leff allowed/nurtered/shared in its growth. Those who posted on his boards grew the community that he promoted. Today it is different. He's lost most of them. Although he did make a great deal of money from the thousands of posts they contributed to his boards. It is fascinating to look back at Chowhound from the late '90's and follow the family that was growing there. At some point, around the summer of '04, everything changed. Leff seemed to have decided that some local "cells" were gaining too much notoriety and independence. He decided to rein them in. Especially Chicago and D. C. For me it is unacceptibly different today with a cadre of sycophants spouting out answers to occasionally nebulous questions about best this or that in Hyattsville, Odenton and elsewhere. It's personality, it's soul, it's family is gone.

So be it.

There is a new one which is encouraged and newly nurtered here.

Edited October 23, 2006 by Joe H

[Stretch]

Leff seemed to have decided that some local "cells" were gaining too much notoriety and independence. He decided to rein them in. Especially ... D.C.

Just what is it about the D.C. crowd that summons the Stalin in food site supremos' souls? If Don actually existed, someone should ask him.

[Sthitch]

Just what is it about the D.C. crowd that summons the Stalin in food site supremos' souls? If Don actually existed, someone should ask him.

I know that there were far more reasons than just a single post that caused Joe to leave, but the final incident caused me to leave as well. There was a new poster named Reese (or something like that), who came on and wrote about how he or she just moved to Washington and how miserable the food was, and there was nothing worth eating, and New York and San Francisco were such better food towns... gee like it takes a fucking rocket scientist to figure that out. But when some of us tried to defend our fair city, the Chowhound OGPU deleted all responses to this idiot's post, but left the original baseless message. Most of the responses were impassioned but not crude and some of the best posts that I ever saw on that site, but to no avail, they were gone, and so was I as it became clear to me that Chowhound was NYHound, and frankly that is not what I was looking for.

[Joe H]

Steve, Chowhound/Leff really is a New York centric forum which views itself, literally, as the center of the known universe. In Reece's posts Leff rationalized that he was contributing "chowworthy" news and let his disreptuable slam of D. C. remain on the boards. I think he also wanted to rein in the D. C. board since, like Chicago several months before this, we had been asserting too much autonomy. Anyway, Don seems to allow us and many others, the opportunity to form a community and I sincerely appreciate and thank him for that.

Leff didn't share the same vision.

[Jacques Gastreaux]

Steve, Chowhound/Leff really is a New York centric forum which views itself, literally, as the center of the known universe. In Reece's posts Leff rationalized that he was contributing "chowworthy" news and let his disreptuable slam of D. C. remain on the boards. I think he also wanted to rein in the D. C. board since, like Chicago several months before this, we had been asserting too much autonomy. Anyway, Don seems to allow us and many others, the opportunity to form a community and I sincerely appreciate and thank him for that.

Leff didn't share the same vision.

Don't forget where donrockwell.com came from.

[Al Dente]

Don't forget where donrockwell.com came from.

mrsrockwell.com?

[ScotteeM]

Don't forget where donrockwell.com came from.

mrsrockwell.com?

Based on my senior high school hygiene class, which was some three-plus decades ago, therefore challenging my memory, I think it should be mr&mrsrockwell.com. Of course, my hygiene teacher at Girls' High might have been wrong about that.

[Sthitch]

Leff didn't share the same vision.

That is the main reason that I love this board, hell half the people on here piss me off more than the idiots I deal with in traffic, but I still return because when it comes to discussions on food, wine and great restaurants there is not another group I have found that are as honest or forthright as the DR members. Don lets us go, and when he deletes something, he does so with good cause (he has deleted plenty of mine and I have yet to be able to bitch that any of them have been unjustified), and lets people know why. I have yet to see him do it simply because it became too passionate, and I highly doubt that he could delete a thread because it does not comply with his world-view.

mrsrockwell.com?

Thank you, that is one of the funniest things I read today.