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Meat Causes Cancer


RWBooneJr

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100% of people who ever lived also died.

This is actually false as worded (otherwise, we wouldn't be typing), but your point is well-taken.

I will also add that in the big picture of the universe, we're no more than a Planck length in size, and only .0000000000000000000000000000000016% care about our sub-atomic lives, or even if the sun explodes.

Now, what the hell am I going to have for dinner?

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I know this article quote is from an industry lobbyist:

The WHO panel "says you can enjoy your yoga class, but don't breathe air (Class I carcinogen), sit near a sun-filled window (Class I), apply aloe vera (Class 2B) if you get a sunburn, drink wine or coffee (Class I and Class 2B), or eat grilled food (Class 2A)," said Betsy Booren, vice president of scientific affairs for the group.

but she's not wrong!! It is literally impossible to avoid carcinogens if you want to stay alive. We are all going to die of something.

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Lame.. Everything does cause cancer. But, the really big one is smoking, which is responsible for most fatal cancers. And people still smoke regularly!

Sun related cancers .. Well, a lot of them may not even need to be treated. But, dermatologists do need to put their kids through private school :)

Sure, some foods may be associated with some malignancy, but the association isn't nearly as strong as tobacco, radon gas, and a few other thing that we are pretty sure cause cancer.

I don't think I've ever once had a discussion with a patient: "Yes, Mr. Wathen, it was the steaks that led you to where we are now." Just no way to prove that... Now, the nitrates in processed meats and pickled vegetables, we know that's really a thing, but it's more seen in Japan/Korea, and they have developed a strong upper endoscopy program to mitigate that. I just don't think we get that level of nitrates in the US. And the concern about meats.. they've been there for years, and we still don't have good studies to prove the association.

"Everything in moderation ... Including moderation!" - O.W.

S

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Lame.. Everything does cause cancer. But, the really big one is smoking, which is responsible for most fatal cancers. And people still smoke regularly!

I know I've said this before, but I'll say it again - my brother's a pediatrician, and he once mentioned that he tells his early-teen patients on their first visit, that the two things they can do to help themselves the most are: 1) never smoke 2) always wear a seatbelt. I would somehow work obesity and depression (and possibly sunscreen (*)) in there as well, but that's a whole lot more difficult to weave into a medical consult.

(*) People have been in the sun for millennia, and I'm not thoroughly convinced that being exposed to it is so terrible - lying out going for the deep-bronze tan, and going to tanning booths, yes. A lot of people my age have sun-damaged skin for sure, but I question whether applying total sunblock from an early age is such a great idea - that said, this merits a separate topic in the Science forum.

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"Never smoke" is great advice for young people who have never smoked, but appalling numbers of young people nowadays take up smoking. "Never smoke, or stop smoking if you do it" plus "always wear a seatbelt", are, I agree, the best health advice you can give. If people would follow those two bits of counsel a whole lot more of them would stay alive.

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"Never smoke" is great advice for young people who have never smoked, but appalling numbers of young people nowadays take up smoking. "Never smoke, or stop smoking if you do it" plus "always wear a seatbelt", are, I agree, the best health advice you can give. If people would follow those two bits of counsel a whole lot more of them would stay alive.

A little trick I used with Matt when he was young, and 25 cents meant something to him. I told him that every single time I got into a car, and didn't put on my seatbelt instantly - if he caught it, I'd owe him a quarter. He ran up over a $20 tab, and he was only about 5-6 years old! If I put that key in the ignition, and wasn't buckled up, coming from the back seat would instantly be, "Put your belt on, daddy! That will be ... $14.75."

I have used my seatbelt 100% of the time since, he got close to $25 out of the deal, and he wears *his* seatbelt every time he drives, because he always thinks about it. A triple win that I recommend to *all* parents of young children who forget to buckle up. I really did have a problem of not remembering, and this cured me (of course, those infernal off-key chimes they install now are pretty effective as well).

Honestly, even if you *don't* have a problem remembering to buckle up, you can pretend that you do - it engrains the notion into your child's head so it will be an automatic reflex by the time they start driving. They feel like they're helping you, and they also make a little walking-around money in the process. I, for one, truly *did* have a problem remembering; now, it's pure reflex, and I was wearing my belt during one potentially serious accident, escaping unharmed - all because of this little ritual I used to engage in with Matt.

Separate issue: When Matt approached driving age, I made him the promise that I would never again text while driving - his advancing age scared me straight. I've honored my promise to him except in extreme situations, and then it's only at stoplights (or talking to Siri). I think that for this, it's important to wait until they're nearing driving age because it isn't "reflex" so much as a "conscious choice." Texting and driving is deadly.

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This is one of the better analyses on the subject. They break it down very nicely.

I especially like how they explained that it wasn't risk assessment, but rather, hazard identification. I.e. - banana skins definitely do cause accidents. Not often, and not catastrophic, but they definitely do cause accidents. Thus, based on the IARC's classification, both bananas and cars would be in the same class. Thus, processed meats and cigarettes are in the same IARC class (1), but that doesn't give the whole story. They are "confident that it causes cancer," not saying how much cancer it causes. But, yes they are actually saying that they are confident that "bacon causes cancer". They are labeling it as a Group 1 carcinogen - they believe they have sufficient evidence to say that it is carcinogenic to humans. Not probably. They are saying it does. And that's uncharted waters.

Now, red meat "probably causing" cancer is in the same group as shift work (2A). That's kind of weird. Shift work?? So, if red meat and shift work are in the same group, than you know the data for either is sketchy as hell. Yet, we have had many observational studies showing the link. It's not great data, but it has existed for decades. GI docs have been saying for years that people should increase their fiber, and decrease their red meat intake. It's not new. It was in my (really old) edition of Robbins' Pathology.

Also, discusses that it's a relative risk increase of 17%, not absolute risk. So, about 61 / 1000 people get colorectal cancer in the UK. The people that eat the most meat have a risk of 66 / 1000. The people that eat no meat have a risk of about 56 / 1000. So, 10 additional people per 1000 get colon cancer if they eat a lot of meat vs no meat at all. That's increased risk, but it is going from 5.6% to 6.6%. Is a 1% increased risk of getting colon cancer enough to make you change your diet? I think most people will say no. But, some people want to reduce their risks and they will make some changes.

50g of processed meat per day is associated with a 17% increased relative risk of colorectal cancer. One slice of bacon is 28 grams. 50g a day would be 12.5 slices of bacon a week, or 9.4 hot dogs a week. Okay, I can see maybe eating 3 slices of bacon twice a week, or 2 hot dogs a week, but this amount is a lot of processed meat! This tells what a headline in Daily Beast said yesterday: "Eating Bad Things Bad For You".

For the red meat, it's 100g a day associated with a 16% increased relative risk. It's a little over a 24 oz steak a week, or 6 quarter lb burgers a week. There are people that certainly eat that much, but it's kind of a lot (I think). Overall, the general population has concerns about saturated fats, and have eaten less meat anyway (due to concerns about coronary artery disease) and increased the proportion of turkey and chicken into their diets.

Another thought I have is the type of people that eat 9 hot dogs a week .. I would wager these folks aren't great about running 3-4 times a week, going to yoga, and regularly seeing their doctor. I'd say people that eat >9 hot dogs a week probably smoke more and drink more, are poorer, and lesser educated. So, that's going to skew things.

Another thought I have is what would it take for "Big Meat" to admit that they are making a product that is potentially harmful to humans? Would it take even more population based studies? I bet that wouldn't be enough. A randomized trial? Yeah, right, like that would ever happen. It's in the interest of "Big Meat" (like "Big Tobacco", "Big Energy", etc.) to always deny, deny, deny. Why would any business interest act any other way? What are they going to do? "Oh, shit, guys.. all the meats are killing people. Let's close down the factories and go into wearable tech!" So, anything they say should probably be just ignored.

After reviewing the data, I think the evidence is strong and convincing - we've known for years that this is the case. This is just the first time that a national or international organization has made a vocal statement about it, and have classified it as a carcinogen. Whether or not it is clinically meaningful, whether or not people need to make wholesale changes to their diet, whether or not warnings have to be on the packages ... This is what will be the next big decisions for clinicians, public health officials, and policy makers. Big fights ahead!

In the meantime, you can have a hot dog or two, and wrap it in a slice of bacon, but don't eat 9 of them!

-S

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I know I've said this before, but I'll say it again - my brother's a pediatrician, and he once mentioned that he tells his early-teen patients on their first visit, that the two things they can do to help themselves the most are: 1) never smoke 2) always wear a seatbelt. I would somehow work obesity and depression (and possibly sunscreen (*)) in there as well, but that's a whole lot more difficult to weave into a medical consult.

(*) People have been in the sun for millennia, and I'm not thoroughly convinced that being exposed to it is so terrible - lying out going for the deep-bronze tan, and going to tanning booths, yes. A lot of people my age have sun-damaged skin for sure, but I question whether applying total sunblock from an early age is such a great idea - that said, this merits a separate topic in the Science forum.

Going completely off topic now... New studies are showing that sunscreen with oxybenzone is killing our coral reefs, fyi.  That is also the most dangerous chemical as rated by the EWG report that came out.  My doctor has actually advised me that he doesn't think SPF on a daily use is a good idea for me.  He told me to only wear sunscreen when I couldn't avoid exposure for prolonged periods via other methods such as wearing more clothing and a hat and would get burned.  But he told me he would rather see me just end my sun exposure early than put on sunscreen when I was outside.  I did use it at the beach this summer.   He also said that the sunscreen I was using was bad, and if I was going to use it to switch to a new brand and referred me to the EWG site.  Anyway who knows, but I like that my doctor is into whole health as it has worked for me.

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