478 replies to this topic

[Meaghan]

Today at 11 a.m.

This should be uncensored and entertaining. Type fast!

[brendanc]

Today at 11 a.m.

This should be uncensored and entertaining.  Type fast!

It is moving pretty slow
edited:
wait it was my computer

Edited by brendanc, 11 October 2005 - 11:08 AM.

[JLK]

Oh, great...more ways to goof off at work!

[The Hersch]

Is it me, or do others find that the way the posts and responses are organized was not designed for human readers?

[MelGold]

Is it me, or do others find that the way the posts and responses are organized was not designed for human readers?

It's a bit confusing when the chat thread lists the most recent submission first. The chat peeked my curiosity about the November issue...can't wait to see what he does to the food & wine section!

[Meaghan]

Is it me, or do others find that the way the posts and responses are organized was not designed for human readers?

I agree. Kliman, if you're reading tell the honchos you need better software. It will pay for itself.

Edited by Meaghan, 11 October 2005 - 04:45 PM.

[Lydia R]

Thankfully the chat archive isn't in "last in, first up" order.

http://www.washingto...ing/051011.html

Agree with anticipation of November issue...

[Joe H]

This is an especially interesting link which speaks volumes about the Post, City Paper, Washingtonian and other forms of print media:

http://www.startribu...35/5661998.html

This also represents a topic that this board should explore some time: the impact of blogs/message boards/websites on traditional forms of criticism, i.e. print media.

Online "chats" such as which Kliman and Sietsema are in the forefront of are efforts to counter the impact and influence of boards like this, CH, Roadfood, OA and eG along with individual blogs such as "The List" and "Metrocurean" among others. All of the internet represents a kind of threat to the enduring popularity of print media. As outrageous as this may sound the link above lends credence to the statement.

Even though "traditional" food critics may be our "icons" we may be very real threats to their continued existence and popularity. Certainly declining readership translates into declining revenue from circulation and advertising.

One day, with Mr. Rockwell's approval, we should have a lengthy discussion about the impact of what I am suggesting. If what I am suggesting is true then this board-among others-is ground zero for the kind of change I am suggesting.

[squidsdc]

Belated link to Oct 18 chat

I find it odd that there is no summation or close...like "see you next week" etc. etc. Am I missing something? Maybe my PC is messed up, but I didn't see one on last week's chat either.

While it is definitely nice to have another person's opinion, the chat seems short on length and substance--maybe not enough publicity and therefore not many questions submitted? I'm not really sure how I found out about the chat myself ( stumbled across it somewhere) but I certainly haven't heard or seen the Washingtonian publicizing it.

[jm chen]

Ooh, that grilled whole pineapple sounds like a fun dessert, though.

[monavano]

Belated link to Oct 18 chat

I find it odd that there is no summation or close...like "see you next week" etc. etc. Am I missing something? Maybe my PC is messed up, but I didn't see one on last week's chat either.

While it is definitely nice to have another person's opinion, the chat seems short on length and substance--maybe not enough publicity and therefore not many questions submitted? I'm not really sure how I found out about the chat myself ( stumbled across it somewhere) but I certainly haven't heard or seen the Washingtonian publicizing it.

I think if you take out all the onerous kvetch filled rants that always seems to penetrate their way to the screen in Tom's chats, and distill the remainder down, you'd probably get about the same amount of straight info.
So far, this problem hasn't plagued Todd's chats and I like the different style and point of view. I think it's a great compliment to the Wednesday chats.

[Sthitch]

My advice would be to seek out what this city excels at, and not try to replicate your time in NYC. In other words, go for Ethiopian, Vietnamese, and Thai on the lower end of things, instead of pining after delis, Italian mom-and-pops and bagel shops. As far as the more expensive places, D.C. holds its own with any city in the country. What it lacks, for now, is interesting, personal mid-range spots -- the kind of places New York has in abundance. But can I say it? What New York also has in abundance is mediocrity. And New Yorkers are notorious for overhyping their often middling restaurants.

This was from the Oct. 11 chat. I am sure that this sort of attitude (which I commend) will make Joe H. happy, and those New Yorkers who exhibit such a pompous attitude he was responding to seethe.

[shogun]

Come on, let's pick up the pace here.

[monavano]

Ok, ...Should the waiter apologize for the chance, if not fortuitous gropeing incident? How painful was it? Did it require hospitalization , or perhaps ongoing psychiatric counseling? Is this a mere ESL misunderstanding? Should we all have genuflected at the mere mention of the husband's military rank?
There are so many more questions I have regarding the layers of conspiracy here, so let's all loosend our ties and settle in for a lengthy discussion of "When Waiters Grope. To Sue or Not To Sue. To Demand An Apology, or a Duel"
This is, to say the least, a sticky wicket.

Edited by monavano, 25 October 2005 - 11:09 AM.

[Spiral Stairs]

Ok, ...Should the waiter apologize for the chance, if not fortuitous gropeing incident? How painful was it? Did it require hospitalization , or perhaps ongoing psychiatric counseling? Is this a mere ESL misunderstanding? Should we all have genuflected at the mere mention of the husband's military rank?
There are so many more questions I have regarding the layers of conspiracy here, so let's all loosend our ties and settle in for a lengthy discussion of  "When Waiters Grope. To Sue or Not To Sue. To Demand An Apology, or a Duel"
This is, to say the least, a sticky wicket.

It is, no doubt, the kind of story to which there are two sides. For instance, the Colonel says he "politely" asked for an apology. One man's politeness is another man's raving lunacy. Also, the Colonel says the waiter did ask whether she was okay. I would be curious about the words and tone he used -- they may, in fact, have been apologetic without using whatever talismanic words the Colonel was seeking.

That said, I can't understand why any waiter would (i) issue anything less than a clear apology, and (ii) refuse to issue a further apology when requested. Nothing in the story suggests any fault on the part of the woman who was smote.

[crackers]

This is going to bring down the wrath of somebody, no doubt, but right now....yawn, this chat is a virtual rip-off of Sietsema's weekly chat.

And another thing, since I already ranting, if people are going to write in to complain about service mishaps, can't they be required to submit far enough in advance so Todd and/or Tom can do a little investigating and get the response from all sides before going live with it? That would make a much more interesting read - from complaint to full story to resolution. Sietsema's "Ask Tom" box in the weekly Post magazine already does this sometimes, so it will be another rip-off, but why stop now?

[Jacques Gastreaux]

Is it my imagination, or is this chat less than half the length of Sietsema's? He must not have much of an audience yet. And, I agree with crackers, the types of questions he's getting and the responses sure seem familiar. I won't go so far as to characterize it as a "rip off," because Kliman has no control over the questions that come over the transom.

[crackers]

I won't go so far as to characterize it as a "rip off," because Kliman has no control over the questions that come over the transom.

Weekly - check. On-line - check. Mid-week - check. Mid-day - check. Publication's restaurant critic answering questions - check. Questions can be submitted ahead - check. Questions can be submitted live - check. Restaurant critic throws questions out to the audience for response - check. Rants allowed without fact checking - check. Ubiquitous "Where can I find" questions - check. DR forum host screwball questions slipped in for comic relief - check. OK, maybe rip-off was too harsh; let's call it a a liberal borrowing of a successful existing format.

Edited by crackers, 25 October 2005 - 12:26 PM.

[Jacques Gastreaux]

Weekly - check.  On-line - check.  Mid-week - check.  Mid-day - check.  Publication's restaurnt critic answering questions - check.  Questions can be submitted ahead - check. Questions can be submitted live - check.    Restaurant critic throws questions out to the audience for response - check. Rants allowed without fact checking - check.  Ubiquitous "Where can I find" questions - check.  DR forum host screwball questions slipped in for comic relief - check.  OK, maybe  rip-off was too harsh; let's call it a a liberal borrowing of a successful existing format. 

Well, when you put it that way, its fair to say that it is a wholesale rip off (as opposed to a retail rip off).

[Jason]

It was interesting that during Todd's first chat someone alluded to fact checking. A lot of amusing little things slip through cracks in his reviews & in this chat. In last week's chat he advocated making anniversary reservations in Palena's front room (is that possible?), in today's he was talking about ordering a frosty mug of Singh Thai (would that include the roaches?), in a past CP write-up he called Cheesecake Factory a local chain, to name a few. I usually take his ingredient descriptions with a grain of salt, since I've come across a few inaccuracies based on dishes I'm familiar with.

[JPW]

From the intro

I'm reprising my call here. I don't mean just bad experiences. I don't just mean meals that failed to live up to the hype or disappointments that put a damper on what was meant to be a special occasion. I mean epically disastrous stories -- spectacular failures. You know -- curtains going up in flames, marriages dissolving before your eyes, or, my favorite, a waitress being dressed down by a fascistic manager and crumbling in tears by the bar.

Gee, what a swell guy.

[Banco]

These chats so far have been disappointing: not very substantive, and coyly skirting interesting issues when they arise. Perhaps that's just the "Washingtonian" way of doing things, but as long as TS is around, I don't really see the gap that TK's chats might fill.

[Stretch]

From the intro

I'm reprising my call here. I don't mean just bad experiences. I don't just mean meals that failed to live up to the hype or disappointments that put a damper on what was meant to be a special occasion. I mean epically disastrous stories -- spectacular failures. You know -- curtains going up in flames, marriages dissolving before your eyes, or, my favorite, a waitress being dressed down by a fascistic manager and crumbling in tears by the bar.

Gee, what a swell guy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

SS MD (Hmmm? ): "my favorite, a waitress being dressed down by a fascistic manager and crumbling in tears by the bar."

Nice to see that you take pleasure in others' misery, Todd.

Todd Kliman: I didn't take pleasure in it at all. It happened to be a friend of mine.

When I said "favorite," I meant my favorite restaurant fiasco story.

The friend, it turns out, is fine. The manager, I have no idea. And truthfully, I don't care what becomes of him.

Edited by Stretch, 01 November 2005 - 12:56 PM.

[JPW]

[tastedc]

The chate was very short too, wonder if that was technical snafus?
Really like the physical magazine's change in layout and coverage for November,
I think Washingtonian is actually getting to be a bit cutting edge!
Referencing the website on the Thanksgiving article in order to get the recipes
is a smart way to merge the 2 concepts. The question will be, will people
continue to pay for the Magazine if all the information is online? That's
a real Big Deal over there...

[DonRocks]

The November 8th chat.

[JLK]

This takes the cake for me. Flavor = belly dancing or breaking plates?

Along with other questions (such as the vague one about Penn Quarter) makes me think that on the whole, this crew is less knowledgable about dining out than the crew that tunes in for Tom's chat. Do you agree?

11:25 AM Arlington, VA: My boyfriend's parents are coming to town this weekend. I would like to take them to a very unique DC restaurant, one with a lot of flavor.  I was thinking belly dancers or a greek restaurant that breaks plates...

Any suggestions?

Edited by JLK, 08 November 2005 - 11:44 AM.

[Sthitch]

I am wondering if the inelegantly named "Don Corlione's" is as good as the person who asked the question, or if he just wishes to have some confirmation that it is better than Pizza Slut, or Porta John’s.

[Sthitch]

This takes the cake for me.  Flavor = belly dancing or breaking plates? 

Along with other questions (such as the vague one about Penn Quarter) makes me think that on the whole, this crew is less knowledgable about dining out than the crew that tunes in for Tom's chat.  Do you agree?

Well, it depends what the belly dancer looks like...

Taverna Cretekou, in Clarendon

Clarendon? I know it is a popular neighborhood, but have they already renamed Old Town to reflect this popularity?

[Banco]

Interesting (and debatable) Q&A on sommelier etiquette, otherwise very fluffy.

[starfish]

Todd Kliman: My biggest pet peeve -- or make it latest pet peeve, because I've seen the offense committed three times, now, in the past couple of weeks:

When the sommelier or wine steward takes it upon himself (or herself) to pour the bottle of wine for the entire table.

In a superlative restaurant, OK.

Anywhere else, especially at a place that aims for an appealing sort of looseness, it's a huge no-no in my book.

The restaurant will tell you otherwise. It'll tell you that this is an example of the degree of attention it is willing to lavish on its customers.

Uh, no.

It's pushiness masquerading as service. They want to drain the bottle. They want to have you order another. And who knows if the person sitting across from me even WANTS more wine? All drinkers are not created equal.

Last time this happened, I cut it off at the pass. I hid the bottle of wine under the table, refilling glasses for my guests per their instructions on how much to pour.

that is crap. i cringe everytime i see a guest pouring thier own wine in my restaurant or any other for that matter. that to me reflects inattentive service. if one does not wish for wine to be poured, then open your piehole and say so. to presume that a restaurant or server is simply trying to push another bottle (yes i know that it happens in some places) is unfair and cynical. most good restauranteurs and servers know that guest experience is far more important than how high the check can get.

[goldenticket]

Pentagon City: Hi Todd! During a previous chat I asked for your recommendations on where to eat in Pentagon City. Unfortunately, I am not a fan of kebabs...any other suggestions?

Todd Kliman: Urban Thai gets kind words from a number of people I know. Take that for what it's worth -- I haven't been yet to corroborate that judgment.
The two splashy places are Jaleo and Oyamel. But I prefer the Jaleo downtown -- both its cooking and its vibe. Oyamel is a ride, in every sense of the word. The simplest stuff on the menu is tasty, and the desserts are terrific, but a lot of the menu promises a kind of lusty soulfulness and complexity that it doesn't quite deliver on. The tacos, especially.

He does seem to be geographically challenged! Granted, Crystal City is a lot closer to Pentagon City than Alexandria is to Clarendon, but I certainly get the impression he doesn't cross the river very often...

[Banco]

that is crap.  i cringe everytime i see a guest pouring thier own wine in my restaurant or any other for that matter.  that to me reflects inattentive service.  if one does not wish for wine to be poured, then open your piehole and say so.  to presume that a restaurant or server is simply trying to push another bottle (yes i know that it happens in some places) is unfair and cynical.  most good restauranteurs and servers know that guest experience is far more important than how high the check can get.

Well said!

Edited to add quote by TK: "But otherwise, I'd like to have some degree of control over my meal."

Then open the proverbial pie hole! Sheesh!

Edited by Banco, 08 November 2005 - 12:21 PM.

[DonRocks]

He does seem to be geographically challenged!  Granted, Crystal City is a lot closer to Pentagon City than Alexandria is to Clarendon, but I certainly get the impression he doesn't cross the river very often...

Todd simply got Taverna Cretekou (Alexandria) crossed up with Aegean Taverna (Clarendon), both of which are crummy.

[Banco]

TK: "At a casual place, the pace of the meal is not determined by the staff -- as it has to be at the highest levels of dining. "

WHAT!!??

[Spiral Stairs]

I don't understand why Kliman "wouldn't even think" of asking at a "top" restaurant that the server not pour more wine. Would it be humiliating to say, "No thank you, I'm fine"? Or, "No, thank you, I justed wanted a glass"? Or, "No, thank you, and I really don't need to tell you a reason"?

It sounds like he clams up at nice restaurants, like it's not his place to rock the boat. I feel freer to make specific service-related requests at "top" restaurants generally. I figure I'm paying for it.

[lackadaisi]

Is there some way to actually read the chat as it is happening? Everytime I start to read it, it refreshes itself and goes back to the first question. I find this really frustrating, but there must be some way to fix it.

[giant shrimp]

even dining in the lower depths, wherever that might be, isn't hiding the wine bottle under the table a bit precarious? and what if cockroaches climb on it? wouldn't it be easier for everyone to just order cokes and then sneak a flask of rum around the table when the server isn't looking? at the coffee houses in amsterdam they let you pace the whole thing and you can order a meal backwards, starting off with the brownies. at the places around here where we go for the highest levels of dining i do kind of mind when other people at the table start slugging down their wine so they get more of the bottle when the server comes over for the next round of pours, but i realize that's really my problem and i try to get an understanding with everyone ahead of time not to try to hog the bottle.

[dmwine]

that is crap.  i cringe everytime i see a guest pouring thier own wine in my restaurant or any other for that matter.  that to me reflects inattentive service.  if one does not wish for wine to be poured, then open your piehole and say so.  to presume that a restaurant or server is simply trying to push another bottle (yes i know that it happens in some places) is unfair and cynical.  most good restauranteurs and servers know that guest experience is far more important than how high the check can get.

I agree with the "speak up" admonition, but I also agree with Todd - too many wait staff appear too eager to empty the bottle before the food arrives, creating the need for another bottle. In a group setting, where people might be splitting the bill, it also rewards people who drink a lot and "punishes" moderation.

I think his reference to high-end places implies that this is not so much of a problem there, not that he's too timid to speak up.

Anyway, my 2 cents' worth ...

[Sthitch]

I also find that the quick pour inevitably leads to over pours. I have had waiters refill my glass, and then add the same amount to my wife's untouched glass.

[dmwine]

I also find that the quick pour inevitably leads to over pours.  I have had waiters refill my glass, and then add the same amount to my wife's untouched glass.

I've had wine poured in my water glass! Or was that water in my wine glass?

[tripewriter]

"A diner is free to ask."

That's the nut of the problem right there.

I wouldn't even THINK of asking at a serious, big-time restaurant.

But a casual place is a different thing. At a casual place, the pace of the meal is not determined by the staff -- as it has to be at the highest levels of dining. The pace is determined to some degree by the table. That's why you go to places like that. To relax and unwind and talk, without the constant, conspicuous intrusions of a server or servers.

Free to ask? The diner in that setting should absolutely not be made to feel as though he or she is seeking permission or coloring outside the lines.

I'm surprised that Kliman seems so uncomfortable with the whole fine dining experience. To me there are few things more relaxing than a great meal with great service. I'm never uptight about speaking my mind, nor do I view service as an intrusion.

Better to give readers information about what goes into good service and the pleasures of experiencing good hospitality.

Yes, I'd like fries with that. Now please leave me alone.

[tastedc]

It's pushiness masquerading as service. They want to drain the bottle. They want to have you order another. And who knows if the person sitting across from me even WANTS more wine? All drinkers are not created equal.

Last time this happened, I cut it off at the pass. I hid the bottle of wine under the table, refilling glasses for my guests per their instructions on how much to pour.

I'm totally confused by what he's trying to say even after reading it several times...I think he's trying to say that less expensive restaurants push sales on wine by pouring more even if people at the table don't want more wine - sort of like when waiters push dessert at the end of the meal? Hiding the wine is an etiquette No-No, I mean if a restaurant won't obey your wishes about not pouring wine in certain glasses, then go to the manager or don't go back to the restaurant! It seems that when you go to seated restaurant that you should NOT pour your own water, replace your own cutlery or linens, etc.. and you should ask for service...

Of course, I have a similar pet peeve - I hate when I'm served white wine in an ice bucket with freezing water and ice, and the waiter pours some and then puts the wine back in the freezing water - that ruins the wine experience, you can't taste a white wine when it's too cold!

[Meaghan]

Nooooooooooooooooooo!

[shogun]

He does seem to be geographically challenged!  Granted, Crystal City is a lot closer to Pentagon City than Alexandria is to Clarendon, but I certainly get the impression he doesn't cross the river very often...

You're right, but on the other hand where is he going to send people in Crystal City? Granted I haven't eaten much around Pentagon Row, so I couldn't tell you how the food at say, Sine, or that Vietnamese place is, but other than that, it's a bunch of midclass chains for the mall crowd. Guess he could have sent them to Lebanese Taverna (Hey, another Taverna!) or Woo Lae Oak.

[tastedc]

Didn't Woo Lae Oak move to the old Sam and Harry's in Tyson's Corner, the old Inkwell space?

[starfish]

He does seem to be geographically challenged!  Granted, Crystal City is a lot closer to Pentagon City than Alexandria is to Clarendon, but I certainly get the impression he doesn't cross the river very often...

in TK's defense, his previous gig focused on restaurants within the city due to a readership that was overwhelmingly dc-based.

[shogun]

Didn't Woo Lae Oak move to the old Sam and Harry's in Tyson's Corner, the old Inkwell space?

No, pretty sure it's still there, unless that was very recently.

[goldenticket]

Todd simply got Taverna Cretekou (Alexandria) crossed up with Aegean Taverna (Clarendon), both of which are crummy.

Understood AND Agreed!
I couldn't remember the name of that Greek place in Clarendon, but figured that was where the confusion came from. Don't know about plates being smashed there, but I have seen lambs roasting out front (not too from from the lovely traffic fumes of Clarendon Blvd) around Greek Easter...
I do like that little garden area behind Cretekou...too bad the food doesn't do the setting justice.

[johnb]

in TK's defense, his previous gig focused on restaurants within the city due to a readership that was overwhelmingly dc-based.

That may be true, but he sure did a lot of suburban restaurant reviews in odd places, like Greenbelt, White Oak, Wheaton, etc. Hardly the DC crowd. I think he lives out somewhere around Takoma Park, which if accurate probably explains why those spots.