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Kliman Online, Todd Kliman's Chog - Tuesdays 11-12 AM on Washingtonian.com


Meaghan

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From today's chat:

Clifton, VA:

A great chef is one who turns average or mediocre ingredients into something special. Any chef with some training can turn great ingredients into something special. Ewes usually lmab from January to about March in VA. As a result you get VA lamb from late March through maybe June. If you are going to call yourself a foodie you need to know this type of thing. Like tomatoes are best the end of Spetmeber and early October. Softshells are best in June rather May etc. Is it grass fed from weaning to slaughter or finished on corn. Makes a difference intaste and amount of Omega 3s. Food/restaurant critics should know these things. If you dont get out of the business hoss!

Todd Kliman:

Who says I don't know this type of thing?

(And what's with the "hoss"?)

______________________________________________

From the July 3, 2007 chat:

Apples and Oranges???? :

Not a true statement at all when comparing Cityzen with the tasting room at Eve.

Todd Kliman:

Settle down, Hoss.

_______________________________________________

We now return you to your regularly scheduled re-runs of Bonanza...

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Todd will have no choice but to laugh at this one!

His opening monologue today invites discussion - any thoughts?

At first when I just skimmed during lunch I got annoyed by yet another person decrying foodies and locally grown items because it divides us into haves vs. have nots and yadda yadda yadda

Upon closer inspection, I agree that using sourcing merely as a means to drum up buzz and add another facet to the diamond of exclusivity is a hindrance, both to the food world and the new movement designed to encourage the "have nots" to explore their local food market and spurn those processed items at the store.

However, I don't know if comparing restaurants such as Blue Duck Tavern (a sourcer) to Ravi Kabob (non sourcer) is fair. Restaurants like Blue Duck Tavern encompass a wide variety of experiences: celebrating your relationship with food, via plating, atmosphere, and yes, source. Look at it this way: if I'm buying a diamond I want to know the technical aspects of it - cut, color, etc. - and whether it's obtained ethically (source). Same for if I'm paying a ton for food and for the experience.

This isn't to say one can't celebrate food at a place like Ravi. But I have different expectations for the place and demand a different experience from it: I want it to be cheap. I want it to be fairly quick. I want it to taste good. If they tell me where my food comes, my god that would be fantastic. I'd love to know that they were buying locally or from farms that celebrated sustainable farming and organic produce, but if they aren't I'm not going to get my panties in a bunch. I don't go to Ravi Kabob any less because of it.

I've enjoyed both places equally, for what they provide to my dining experience and my life. Good food is just...good food. Isn't that the true goal of being a "foodie"?

Furthermore it's not like places CAN'T do it. I remember being 13 years old and reading the "Today's French Fries are from Gibbonsville, ID" in the original Five Guys, WAY before sourcing was even important. They wanted to show you that "hey, we don't have to buy frozen McDonald's fries to give you a good, cheap, fast meal." Saying the Mom & Pops can't do it only furthers the haves v. have nots mentality.

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Todd will have no choice but to laugh at this one!

His opening monologue today invites discussion - any thoughts?

Well, I added my $.02 during the chog, (and thanks Todd for your kind remarks). But I'd add something here re: the issue of fancy ingredients (sourced) vs. the plain old stuff. My example would be Philly cheesesteaks. There is hardly a more sublime dish than a well-made Philly steak sandwich, but here we have Cheez Whiz as a key ingredient (actually, most of the places use canned cheese glop that is actually inferior to genuine (dare I say authentic??) Cheez Whiz, sourced from Kraft Foods. Yet it works, and my apologies to those who insist on using Provolone (I admit, I ask for American myself, but the principle is the same).

Imagine a cheesesteak made with $11/lb. Gruyere, or Brie, or Emmenthaler (shades of John Kerry) or something like that. Ugh.

In short, some things are just great without hoity toity ingredients, and in fact would be spoiled with such ingredients.

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Well, I added my $.02 during the chog, (and thanks Todd for your kind remarks). But I'd add something here re: the issue of fancy ingredients (sourced) vs. the plain old stuff. My example would be Philly cheesesteaks. There is hardly a more sublime dish than a well-made Philly steak sandwich, but here we have Cheez Whiz as a key ingredient (actually, most of the places use canned cheese glop that is actually inferior to genuine (dare I say authentic??) Cheez Whiz, sourced from Kraft Foods. Yet it works, and my apologies to those who insist on using Provolone (I admit, I ask for American myself, but the principle is the same).

Imagine a cheesesteak made with $11/lb. Gruyere, or Brie, or Emmenthaler (shades of John Kerry) or something like that. Ugh.

In short, some things are just great without hoity toity ingredients, and in fact would be spoiled with such ingredients.

I chimed in as well, and I agree with your analogy. Yet, even the humble sandwich is prone to gourmet-ifying and sourcing. Take the panino on an Amoroso roll, which Tim Carman gushed about in his Young and Hungry colum recently.

Yes, the bread was sourced from Philly.

So there you go. There is some phenomenon (there has to be a neologism here) that makes food taste better when you know where it's from.

A taste sourcesation?

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I chimed in as well, and I agree with your analogy. Yet, even the humble sandwich is prone to gourmet-ifying and sourcing. Take the panino on an Amoroso roll, which Tim Carman gushed about in his Young and Hungry colum recently.

Yes, the bread was sourced from Philly.

So there you go. There is some phenomenon (there has to be a neologism here) that makes food taste better when you know where it's from.

A taste sourcesation?

Sourcegasm?

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Well, I added my $.02 during the chog, (and thanks Todd for your kind remarks). But I'd add something here re: the issue of fancy ingredients (sourced) vs. the plain old stuff. My example would be Philly cheesesteaks. There is hardly a more sublime dish than a well-made Philly steak sandwich, but here we have Cheez Whiz as a key ingredient (actually, most of the places use canned cheese glop that is actually inferior to genuine (dare I say authentic??) Cheez Whiz, sourced from Kraft Foods. Yet it works, and my apologies to those who insist on using Provolone (I admit, I ask for American myself, but the principle is the same).

Imagine a cheesesteak made with $11/lb. Gruyere, or Brie, or Emmenthaler (shades of John Kerry) or something like that. Ugh.

In short, some things are just great without hoity toity ingredients, and in fact would be spoiled with such ingredients.

Nothing points out the pretentiousness of the word "sourced" like pairing it with "Cheeze Whiz." ;)

I love a good cheesesteak -- though I think "sublime" would be the wrong word to describe them. Rather, "pretty fucking awsome, dude" captures the nature of cheap beef and Cheese Whiz better than an adjective more commonly applied to Shakespeare or Bach. But I will say that frying up the beef with a little cave-aged Gruyere (I rarely have Cheese Whiz around the house) is pretty awsome, as well. And Brie, too. Never let reverse snobbery (or snobbery) get in the way of a good meal.

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I chimed in as well, and I agree with your analogy. Yet, even the humble sandwich is prone to gourmet-ifying and sourcing. Take the panino on an Amoroso roll, which Tim Carman gushed about in his Young and Hungry colum recently.

Yes, the bread was sourced from Philly.

So there you go. There is some phenomenon (there has to be a neologism here) that makes food taste better when you know where it's from.

A taste sourcesation?

Gosh, Monavano, I hope you're not suggesting that I liked the sub because I knew the source of the rolls, rather than because, well, you know, the sammie tasted good. I mean, not even my shrink can psychoanalyze me that well.

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Gosh, Monavano, I hope you're not suggesting that I liked the sub because I knew the source of the rolls, rather than because, well, you know, the sammie tasted good. I mean, not even my shrink can psychoanalyze me that well.

No-but I think the sub became a bit dearer because you found that it was on an Amoroso roll. Hey-I'm from Philly and wish I could source them myself so I could make a decent cheesesteak at home.

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No-but I think the sub became a bit dearer because you found that it was on an Amoroso roll. Hey-I'm from Philly and wish I could source them myself so I could make a decent cheesesteak at home.

I am unfamiliar with this brand, but would it be more a question of fond memories and the "right" taste as opposed to these being a "gourmet" product? I crave the hot dog buns I used to get in Boston (and before that, at Howard Johnson's and Friendly's) but they are by no means a quality upgrade over the standard Safeway buns I'm stuck with now.

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I am unfamiliar with this brand, but would it be more a question of fond memories and the "right" taste as opposed to these being a "gourmet" product? I crave the hot dog buns I used to get in Boston (and before that, at Howard Johnson's and Friendly's) but they are by no means a quality upgrade over the standard Safeway buns I'm stuck with now.

I think that sums it up for me. Actually, Amoroso rolls remind me of WaWa hoagies, which Philadelphians cut their baby teeth on. Gourmet? No. But you just can't replicate that special something that Schuylkill punch imparts.

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I am unfamiliar with this brand, but would it be more a question of fond memories and the "right" taste as opposed to these being a "gourmet" product? I crave the hot dog buns I used to get in Boston (and before that, at Howard Johnson's and Friendly's) but they are by no means a quality upgrade over the standard Safeway buns I'm stuck with now.
In my experience taste can be heavily influenced by memory. My mom, a good cook, always put a lot of black pepper in her potato soup. I remember tasting a potato based soup at Corduroy a while back and my first thought was 'this needs pepper.' After, a couple more bites I realized the soup didn't need anything at all and there were all sorts of flavors I hadn't picked up on because I was looking for the pepper.
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How about sourcery?

Not very euphonic, but best hints at the dangers addressed by Todd--supersource-ilious. Let's get Barbara Wallraff in on this one.

ETA: I do think Zoramargolis' sourcery is delightfully clever and near-perfect, but too approving--perhap's the dangers involved in amateurish overenthusiasm and overuse in inexpert hands could be conjoured by invoking The Sourceror's Apprentice?

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Amoroso can't compare to the bakeries that supply the White House in Atlantic City: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...753C1A960958260 I believe they bake the best sub rolls on this side of the Atlantic.

It's hard to beat the White House when it comes to subs, including the bread. But it's a shame the baker had to take out the coal ovens and put in gas. C'est la vie...............

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ETA: I do think Zoramargolis' sourcery is delightfully clever and near-perfect, but too approving--perhap's the dangers involved in amateurish overenthusiasm and overuse in inexpert hands could be conjoured by invoking The Sourceror's Apprentice?

This seems to be a source-ubject for a lot of people.

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regarding sourcing, with fruits and vegetables, i think it can make a difference in a restaurant like buck's that knows how to bring out the virtues of something that has been just recently harvested.

a few weeks ago i found broccoli at the farmers market that was really great steamed, seasoned and drizzled with butter and lemon. there's no way i would be able to find broccoli this good at safeway or giant, or even whole foods. (our local giant on newark, by the way, has been an atrocity for years and years even if you can find items like fiddlehead ferns there. it has been trying, i believe, to acquire the space next store that was abandoned by murphys, but ran into community oppositioin against converting a block that the neighbors believe is just like europe. to really make this case persuasively, most of the opponents of an expanded giant first would have to pretend they had never been to europe. but i haven't been following this story because it makes for extremely slow reading and i have given up buying just about anything at giant.)

palena's menu doesn't tell you where the baby beets or nettles come from, but i am just about 100% sure certain they didn't come from any grocery store in this area. (the nettle leaves in the spring consomme that todd wrote about a couple of weeks ago, by the way, are so well preserved that they are still rough, just past the stinging stage.) still, when the menu says that the rabbit is from pennsylvania, or wherever, it does allow your imagination to wander even while you focus on what's on your plate.

the steamed rockfish with ginger and scallions we ordered the other night at bob's shabu shabu comes straight out of the tank, and what could be fresher than that, although the actual source could be rock creek just after it flows past the national zoo for all you know. i would put the texture of the fish on the chewy side, especially when compared with something purchased from the grocery store, and it made me wonder if fish needs some time to rest after being despatched so that it doesn't tense up on the plate. i am sure there are people out there who know the answer. don't get me wrong, though, i would order bob's rockfish again and again, even if it isn't happy to be in a steamy chinese restaurant just a couple of blocks away from the old rockville drive in.

toast tights were one of the favorite things my mother used to make -- two pieces of white bread filled with genuine cheese whiz squeezed and crimped into a buttered round metal device that was held evenly on both sides over a flame until the bread was browned. the bread was formed into a sealed saucer when it came out, and biting into it released molten cheese. apple sauce could also be substituted for the filling. it came from the px (my father was into espionage), and you probably wouldn't have been able to get much better results even if toigo farms had made it.

but i guess todd was really talking about marketing. when you see local sources on a menu, at least it sounds promising. the main purpose of a menu, to my way of thinking, is to let the diner know what they're eating. for example, the last time my wife ordered lamb, she thought she was eating pork, until i reminded her of what it had said on the menu. don't ask me to name sources.

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the steamed rockfish with ginger and scallions we ordered the other night at bob's shabu shabu comes straight out of the tank, and what could be fresher than that, although the actual source could be rock creek just after it flows past the national zoo for all you know. i would put the texture of the fish on the chewy side, especially when compared with something purchased from the grocery store, and it made me wonder if fish needs some time to rest after being despatched so that it doesn't tense up on the plate. i am sure there are people out there who know the answer. don't get me wrong, though, i would order bob's rockfish again and again, even if it isn't happy to be in a steamy chinese restaurant just a couple of blocks away from the old rockville drive in.

Just because a fish comes right out of a tank and is dispatched moments before it comes to your table does not make it the choicest of ingredients. A couple of things that could impact the quality of the fish is whether it was farm raised or wild caught (still in the tank I would lean towards the former), and the amount of time and the treatment it received after leaving the place where it was raised/caught (was it fed, jostled, stressed, ...). For these reasons I tend to like my fin fish to be from the sea, already dead, and well chilled when they arrive at the restaurant.

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Glad to see that Ann Limpert tracked the winners of the James Beard awards in the Best Bites blog but I was surprised there wasn't a mention by Todd in today's chat about the local winners. Interesting considering that his chat used to contain this heading:

Todd Kliman is the Dining Editor of The Washingtonian and won a prestigious James Beard Award in 2005 for the country's best newspaper column.

-Camille

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Arlington, VA:

I heard a rumor that there was some turnover in the kitchen at Tacklebox. Is this true?

Todd Kliman:

Yes: And it's peach, and it's DE-licious ...

[snip]

Re: Tacklebox:

Actually, I meant I had heard that one of the chefs had left the kitchen. Any word on that?

Todd Kliman:

Oh, I know what you meant. I was dodging it.

Last time I waded into these waters, I was shouted out at over the phone and embroiled in a string of weirdly angry emails.

Not worth it, especially when the stakes are not that high.

Anyone have insights? I was thinking about going there soon.

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Glad to see that Ann Limpert tracked the winners of the James Beard awards in the Best Bites blog but I was surprised there wasn't a mention by Todd in today's chat about the local winners. Interesting considering that his chat used to contain this heading:

is this a coda?

James Beard awards:

So, were you planning to send out any kudos to the local chefs who won at the JB awards last night?

Todd Kliman:

I'm remiss, aren't I?

Congratulations, Eric Ziebold, Terry Thiese, and the staff and management at Central!

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is this a coda?

James Beard awards:

So, were you planning to send out any kudos to the local chefs who won at the JB awards last night?

Todd Kliman:

I'm remiss, aren't I?

Congratulations, Eric Ziebold, Terry Thiese, and the staff and management at Central!

Glad to see it was tacked on to the chat after it ended the first time :lol: Thanks Todd. I think they deserve the mention

-Camille (aka Patricia)

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<tap, tap, tap>

Hey you, GM at Adour.

The guy on his Crackberry every third bite?

That's Todd Kliman. Make sure his duck breast is medium-rare, his napkin is extra-pressed, and his red wine is the right temperature.

I think it's probably safe to say Ramon knows who Todd is. :lol:

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Do they want people to read in real time? If so, why are they making it so difficult to figure out where the current end of the chat is by putting so much stuff at the end.
I love Todd's chats, but they are loaded with technical difficulties.
Of course. But he's clearly not going for any shred of anonymity.

So I guess every restaurateur who doesn't recognize Todd will be having a happy-hour drink there tonight?

I thought the same thing, but while it remains rude to blackberry or text at restaurants, I'm not sure it makes him stand out all that much - especially if he makes a modest effort to do so with a modicum of discretion.
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I love Todd's chats, but they are loaded with technical difficulties.

I thought the same thing, but while it remains rude to blackberry or text at restaurants, I'm not sure it makes him stand out all that much - especially if he makes a modest effort to do so with a modicum of discretion.

We're making an effort to improve some of the aspects of the chat. If there are particular technological issues or other problems you are having with Todd's chat, could you message me with the details? It'd be enormously helpful.

Thanks!

Catherine

washingtonian.com

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Yes, TK's chat seems to have some technical difficulties but lately it has put TS to shame especially today. Good work and maybe the main reason I still subscribe to the mag!

TK has been defining his style since he has been at the Washingtonian, and I like his voice. It's definitely the biggest reason I subscribe. The chat/chog may have challenges, but the Best Bites Blog etc. send to my email is very informative with up to the minute info.

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We're making an effort to improve some of the aspects of the chat. If there are particular technological issues or other problems you are having with Todd's chat, could you message me with the details? It'd be enormously helpful.

Thanks!

Catherine

washingtonian.com

I wouldl ove to see the "technological" improvement of left justifying the text. Graphic cuteness is a PITA to read.

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I wouldl ove to see the "technological" improvement of left justifying the text. Graphic cuteness is a PITA to read.
I would suggest that they have someone from washingtonian.com actually read the chat every once and a while and then the problems would be quite obvious. I can't imagine that anyone does that and doesn't know the problems. Soliciting complaints seems like it would be the second step, not the first.
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I would suggest that they have someone from washingtonian.com actually read the chat every once and a while and then the problems would be quite obvious. I can't imagine that anyone does that and doesn't know the problems. Soliciting complaints seems like it would be the second step, not the first.

My sense about the problem is that TK does not have a producer and/or food editor on hand during each chat. He does it all on his own and therefore, the chats are slower, and he seems to go well past the scheduled 11-noon time to make up for it(until 1pm many times).TS seems to have 2? people assisting with each chat.

Give more manpower to the man.

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I do in fact read the chat every Tuesday and try as much as possible to help Todd out behind the scenes. I've never had any tech problems when I read it, so I suspect that it depends on the computer/browser being used. That information is helpful to me to pass on to our developers to try to resolve the problem.

Catherine

washingtonian.com

I would suggest that they have someone from washingtonian.com actually read the chat every once and a while and then the problems would be quite obvious. I can't imagine that anyone does that and doesn't know the problems. Soliciting complaints seems like it would be the second step, not the first.
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