Jewish Deli

[DonRocks]

[Must. Resist. Organizational. Urge. To. Split. Noshville. Posts. Into. Intrepid. Traveler.]

Computer Scientist {appears in red devil's robe holding pitchfork, a la Animal House}: "Split 'em!"

Editor {appears standing next to a yellow puddle in a desert, dead man lying nearby}: "Don't you dare!"

[jasonc]

somebody wrote a book about this!

http://savethedeli.com/

From what I've gleaned so far, it seems a combination of it being a difficult business model that takes a lot of hard work (the sandwiches don't net much profit, you make most of it on soup and other stuff), and changing customs and migration among Jewish people.

[Bob Wells]

somebody wrote a book about this!

http://savethedeli.com/

From what I've gleaned so far, it seems a combination of it being a difficult business model that takes a lot of hard work (the sandwiches don't net much profit, you make most of it on soup and other stuff), and changing customs and migration among Jewish people.

I just read that book! It's very good. I grew up eating this stuff several times a week. Oh for some good kishka...

[Mark Slater]

I just read that book! It's very good. I grew up eating this stuff several times a week. Oh for some good kishka...

It would help to have a plentiful clientele base that wants this stuff. Washington doesn't have that, unfortunately.

[jasonc]

It would help to have a plentiful clientele base that wants this stuff. Washington doesn't have that, unfortunately.

I don't know. I feel like if you make good food, people will come around.

[DanielK]

Actually, I've had pizza in Florida that was better than this.

Since about half of South Florida is NY ex-pats, you should not be the least bit surprised to find that you can get better bagels and lox, deli, and pizza in Ft. Lauderdale than you can in DC.

[weinoo]

Since about half of South Florida is NY ex-pats, you should not be the least bit surprised to find that you can get better bagels and lox, deli, and pizza in Ft. Lauderdale than you can in DC.

I said nothing about lox or deli, as that is patently false.

[DanielK]

I said nothing about lox or deli, as that is patently false.

Well, I grew up in Philly and South Florida to NY-raised parents, and I can tell you that the deli and bagels & lox I used to get in Florida is far superior to anything I've ever had in nearly 20 years in DC.

[weinoo]

Well, I grew up in Philly and South Florida to NY-raised parents, and I can tell you that the deli and bagels & lox I used to get in Florida is far superior to anything I've ever had in nearly 20 years in DC.

Oh, sorry...I retract my statement. Thought you were referring to NY, not DC.

[Bob Wells]

Well, I grew up in Philly and South Florida to NY-raised parents, and I can tell you that the deli and bagels & lox I used to get in Florida is far superior to anything I've ever had in nearly 20 years in DC.

South Florida has terrible bagels -- way too soft. They are targeted to the dentally challenged clientele.

[DanielK]

South Florida has terrible bagels -- way too soft. They are targeted to the dentally challenged clientele.

NY has some terrible bagel places too.

But back when I lived in SoFla, in the 80s, there were places that had spectacular bagels.

[Bob Wells]

NY has some terrible bagel places too.

But back when I lived in SoFla, in the 80s, there were places that had spectacular bagels.

Agreed on NY, but my brothers live right near Ess-A-Bagel, Bagel Boss, and David's Bagels on First Ave, so I have no trouble avoiding lesser NY bagels.

I started going down to SoFla in '95, when my father finally moved to Boca. Never found a good bagel but interestingly there were plenty of excellent baked goods. Just not bagels.

Have you tried Bagel Buddies in Fair Lakes? The owner is an ex-NYer. Very good bagels.

[stockwatch_1999]

One new and promising place has opened in Potomac (Brooklyn Deli) and another is about to open in Bethesda (Uptown Deli). I have been to Brooklyn Deli and it is very promising (separate topic here). Much better than anything else that exists in D.C. Only complaint is the size of the restaurant(small so there can be a wait on a Sunday) but all the requisites are there (crusty rye; on the premised cooked meats; good slaw; half sours and new pickles).

I'm excited to try Uptown Deli. http://www.uptowndelibethesda.com/ Supposed to be open in about a week.

[darkstar965]

I'm really surprised Wagshals doesn't seem to have ever been mentioned in this thread? It's the best matzoh ball soup I've had in this area, the place has been around forever and served most every dignitary ever to come through DC and the sandwiches (corned beef, brisket, etc.) are all pretty damn good.

[washingtony]

I'm really surprised Wagshals doesn't seem to have ever been mentioned in this thread? It's the best matzoh ball soup I've had in this area, the place has been around forever and served most every dignitary ever to come through DC and the sandwiches (corned beef, brisket, etc.) are all pretty damn good.

It's not exactly what comes to mind when people think "Jewish deli"--besides a few outdoor tables, there's not even a place to sit. And the sandwiches are fine but certainly not worth the hassle of going to Spring Valley.

[DonRocks]

If I [Todd Kliman] had any say in the matter, we would get a couple of legitimate Jewish delis first.

We're up to our eyeballs in lobster rolls, and yet you have to really, really hunt to find a corned beef or pastrami sandwich.

Well, there's always that upcoming Jewish deli in South Dupont that Barry Kos ... oops, damned internet connection ...

[weinoo]

So, there's no place to get this?

[The Hersch]

By the way, note that Jamie Stachowski's wonderful deli is now thriving in an area of Washington where the buildings are all two to three storeys tall. Miraculously, lifting the height limit was not necessary for this development. (For reference, see here.)

[DonRocks]

By the way, note that Jamie Stachowski's wonderful deli is now thriving in an area of Washington where the buildings are all two to three storeys tall. Miraculously, lifting the height limit was not necessary for this development. (For reference, see here.)

I'll give you that it's a good counter-example to the argument. However, seeing as though there's virtually no competition (DGS in South Dupont, Deli City in Langdon Park), it is, by definition and default, a crosstown destination. Heather came from Takoma Park. I recently came from Arlington. Unless there's great population density, that's the way it's going to have to be - a very tenuous way to support a business, and I'll bet mail order is part of their survival plan.

[The Hersch]

I'll give you that it's a good counter-example to the argument. However, seeing as though there's virtually no competition (DGS in South Dupont, Deli City in Langdon Park), it is, by definition and default, a crosstown destination. Heather came from Takoma Park. I recently came from Arlington. Unless there's great population density, that's the way it's going to have to be - a very tenuous way to support a business, and I'll bet mail order is part of their survival plan.

But again, it's not like there's a terrific deli on every other corner in Manhattan or Brooklyn nowadays, notwithstanding the enormous density of population in those places. But hell, for me, living in Kalorama Triangle, I don't have to travel to another part of town just to find a deli, I have to travel to another part of town for a decent supermarket. And I live in Ward 1, the most densely populated part of Washington, an area that approaches Paris's density level. None of this has anything to do with the Height of Buildings Act.

I'll just add that I picked up some pastrami at Stachowski's yesterday, and it continues to be the best pastrami I have ever had. I assume Jamie is not Jewish, so maybe this is in the wrong thread.

[brian]

But again, it's not like there's a terrific deli on every other corner in Manhattan or Brooklyn nowadays, notwithstanding the enormous density of population in those places. But hell, for me, living in Kalorama Triangle, I don't have to travel to another part of town just to find a deli, I have to travel to another part of town for a decent supermarket. And I live in Ward 1, the most densely populated part of Washington, an area that approaches Paris's density level. None of this has anything to do with the Height of Buildings Act.

You're right, residential density isn't the critical factor - although Brooklyn has nearly 60% more residents than Manhattan, it has far fewer Jewish delis. The lion's share of a deli's sales happen around lunchtime, and mapping the delis in NY finds a close correlation to the daytime population density of the city rather than the residential density. While DC's Ward 1 has about the same residential population density as Brooklyn, DC's downtown doesn't come anywhere near Manhattan's daytime density.

I think Stachowski's Market's fantastic success is due to the fact that it's not as limited as a Jewish deli - they're a butcher/grocer/charcutier with wholesale and retail operations and they serve as a deli on the side.

[DaveO]

Boy I'd love to hear from a restaurateur who has a bottom line perspective on this. Do deli sandwiches end up having significantly lower margins....and really don't do justice to the bottom line? Don't know.

Meanwhile, Mel Krupin's up in Tenleytown back in the 90's had a chicken in the pot dish that was the equivalent I had anywhere, and incidentally had the equivalent medicinal/recovery impact of a two week stay at Hopkins Hospital.

One time I brought that soup to a friend who was Peruvian and severely under the weather. He called it "grandmother's soup". It seemed to help him. Maybe chicken soup is a universal folk medicinal cure that transcends ethnicity and national borders.

[mbucher]

Ok. IMO great deli is one of the hardest things to do consistently well . The yield is highly inconsistant (almost impossoble to manage costs) handling is critical and quality of the meats is solely dependent on doing high volumes so it moves quickly and doesn't dry out . Add to this's many of delis established customers have unfortunately passed on and the younger generation has not taken to delis as their parents or grandparents did. There is a great resurgence happening , mainly due to oversize sandwiches being "in" again and people willing to pay $12-20 for such. Corning beef, etc hopefully will not succumb to the mass merchants of supermarket deli! The new wave of DGS and Jamie S's, while not the "family's deli" revitalize the art . Let us not forget our local institution like attmans (and pay homage , they are the oldest family run deli in the united states. True ! )And they are in our backyard! Bring your friends , bring your kids to anyone doing deli and support this cuisine. Otherwise it will disappear. I promise you it will simply go the way of the neighborhood butcher. Deli is an art and a passion. It's a way of life.

[Sableberg]

I recall there being a fairly detailed discussion about the tight margins associated with the deli business in David Sax's book Save the Deli. Toward the end he talks about Mile End and similar "new" delis being a model for continuing the tradition, albeit in a somewhat updated form. That's where DGS comes in...

I enjoyed the book so much that after reading I sent it to my grandmother in South Florida (transplanted NY Jew, of course) along with Mimi Sheraton's The Bialy Eaters.

[Bob Wells]

I recall there being a fairly detailed discussion about the tight margins associated with the deli business in David Sax's book Save the Deli. Toward the end he talks about Mile End and similar "new" delis being a model for continuing the tradition, albeit in a somewhat updated form. That's where DGS comes in...

I enjoyed the book so much that after reading I sent it to my grandmother in South Florida (transplanted NY Jew, of course) along with Mimi Sheraton's The Bialy Eaters.

I second the rec for the Sax book. Have not read Mimi's yet.

[DonRocks]

"Jewish Delis in a Pickle" by Tiffany Hsu, LA Times.

[ktmoomau]

Ok, for my uncle, what is the best in the DC area right now?  AND if he wants a pastrami or corned beef sandwich, should I send him somewhere else, and where to?  

[dcs]

I sometimes pick up a fried egg and pastrami sandwich on a twist roll for breakfast from Brooklyn's Deli in Potomac Woods.  I find it to be a great way to start a day.  I usually ask them to add some tomatoes.

On a related note, I recently read a book review of "˜Pastrami on Rye,' by Ted Merwin in the New York Times (review written by Max Watman).  It looks like it may be a good read, if anyone is interested in such things.

[DaveO]

Ok, for my uncle, what is the best in the DC area right now?  AND if he wants a pastrami or corned beef sandwich, should I send him somewhere else, and where to?  

I've eaten at DGS Dupont a number of times since Barry Koslow has left.  I don't think there is anything different at all with the pastrami as when he was there.  (I'm a pastrami fan over corned beef-I've never had the corned beef at DGS).   Its very good.  The rye is definitely on the plus side...a better rye than most.  Its an excellent pastrami.

As to the Pastrami on Rye book review as referenced by dcs above I do have a vast cultural experience with those places and foods.  My dad's family had a business on the lower East Side that existed from the earlier 1900's to the late 1970's.  I was there eating the foods and dining at the deli's, also dined at the less famous but similarly good deli's in Brooklyn where much of my dad's family resided and dined throughout excellent deli's in Northern NJ where I grew up (my dad claiming that some were the equivalent of NY's famed deli's.).  I've had my share of deli food throughout the NYC region and its Jewish bakeries.   The DGS pastrami is excellent in my book and built on a good quality rye.  For this food as long as DGS maintains its standards from its earliest days I don't see any difference in the quality of this dish.

Strangely over the last few years I haven't spent time at other deli's in the region other than Stachowski's in Georgetown a while back.  Absolutely great meats there also.

For a great food day, hit up DGS Dupont on Sunday and go to the Dupont Market first.  Food is king.

As to the "attitudes" described in the Pastrami on Rye book exhibited by the staff at Deli's I was probably mostly oblivious to it while eating at these various establishments.   Alternatively I have one memory of working as a "scab" for a couple of days in the earlier '60's in the family business on the lower East Side.   The NY textile workers union  went on strike.  By that time the business was mostly staffed by non family members rather than all family when it first started and was completely staffed by immigrant extended family members.

Many of the "kids" of the partners and some other related kids were "drafted" to work during the strike.  It was more of a "this is the way business is done here" than antagonistic. As a younger scab one of my tasks was to feed the striking workers with coffee, tea, and cookies while they were picketing.  Both wholesale and retail customers were entering the store while bantering and kibitzing with the strikers.

My recollection was that while feeding the strikers one regular customer came in and was bs'ing with the strikers while going through the lines.

He took a "faked" antagonistic approach and demanded to know why they were striking.  The response from the worker who was easily the most religious and wore a hat and talit across his shoulders  under his shirt was something like "We demand longer hours and less pay...what do you think, schlemiel??"

Always "insulting" always entertaining.  The strike was quickly settled.  Picketers on Grand and Eldridge Streets on the lower East Side quickly returned to work, and my first job as a food server all ended.

[DanielK]

I'm with dcs. Very fine pastrami/corned beef at Brooklyn's in Potomac, and the best rye bread anywhere. And the best corned beef hash I've ever eaten.

[DaveO]

I'm with dcs. Very fine pastrami/corned beef at Brooklyn's in Potomac, and the best rye bread anywhere. And the best corned beef hash I've ever eaten.

Two foodies for Brooklyn deli in Potomac. I guess I'll have to get over there with some noshers.  Haven't given it a try.

 I still give DGS kudo's for putting out great quality pastrami.  The rye is good, though I know there is better.  DGS chopped liver is still excellent.

[MarkS]

A few years ago my son received an award from the JCC in Rockville, Perlman award for sports.  Very big annual event with several recipients and a few 100 attendees.  The crowd was ecstatic then they had it catered by Bens from New York.  Literally I thought I overdosed on deli by the end of the evening.  A year before they had used on of the local delis in Montgomery county and said they would never do that mistake again. 

[monkeyrotica]

I just read that book! It's very good. I grew up eating this stuff several times a week. Oh for some good kishka...

Now a major motion picture. 

[jdc]

My parents live close to Brooklyn Deli and have been consistently happy with it over the years. They are highly disappointed with Attman's, whose original Baltimore location catered my Bar Mitzvah many years back and remains a gem.

[jasonc]

In the vein of the dim sum smackdown, the xiaolongbaodown and of course, the phodown, is it possible a grand DC deli-down is in order?

[Adam23]

I stopped by the Corned Beef King truck a few weekends ago in Potomac.  Was quite satisfying.  Prefer it to DGS and others.  But it is super thin sliced pastrami and corned beef.

[KeithA]

As for good deli in the area, I wholeheartedly agree that DGS is great. I've eaten a lot of deli and DGS's pastrami is one of the best anywhere and their rye bread is great too. DGS makes great chopped liver too (and I'm usually not a fan). I liked their corned beef less than the pastrami, but it is still good. I recently went to DGS for dinner and managed to hold off on getting either and instead had a great "family style" meal where you get a pickle plate (pretty good), matzo ball soup (pretty good), big platter of braised brisket topped with a bit of horseradish (excellent), your choice of two of their great sides and apple filled donut holes.  You can't beat this for a deli-style tasting menu. I think it is a minimum of 2 people per table but probably enough for 3 or 4.  I haven't been to Potomac Deli, but my Dad is a big fan (although he doesn't eat red meat so I can't vouch for the meats).

[DonRocks]

I'm still shaking my head at Don's ... combo as sacrilegious - but hey if it tastes good, it tastes good - enjoy!

I've been getting progressively more perplexed as to why more and more people have chimed in, saying the same thing. Finally, I checked:

"Kashrut: Jewish Dietary Laws" on jewfaq.org

And I'm just now realizing that what I said is *literally* sacrilegious - I had absolutely no idea! I thought that people here had been using the term "sacrilegious" in a lighthearted context, and I apologize if anyone took offense to my ignorance - I promise it was not my intent to disrespect the Kashrut.

Out of respect, I'm moving my post out of this thread and into Shopping and Cooking, and I'm also going to make a rare exception by editing the content of Keith's post, removing the excerpt, and placing the other posts on this topic in the Shopping and Cooking forum - I think this thread is best left kosher.