75 replies to this topic

[zoramargolis]

I'd been hearing hints about this from Bruce Saunders for the past few weeks, and this morning at the Dupont Market he told me: "It's a go!" Bruce will be taking over the butcher counter located inside the Westover Market, which has been unused for four years, since the new owners bought the place. He'll be selling primarily Eco-Friendly products, especially Bev Egg's pork and poultry, but is also talking with other local farmer/purveyors, like Virginia Lamb and Smith Meadow about selling their meat so that he can have a reliable supply and variety of products.

Bruce plans a soft opening in early-mid May, and a Grand Opening at the end of May, which will feature a whole pig bbq.

You heard it here first!

The only downside to this news is that Bruce won't be at the farmers markets anymore.

[Loire Lover]

The only downside to this news is that Bruce won't be at the farmers markets anymore.

Or working Garde Manger for me at Buck's on Tuesday nights anymore either. Still I'm really happy for him and for the meat lovers of Arlington.

[The Hersch]

I haven't been in the supermarket at Westover since the late 1970s. It's now a destination? It sure wasn't then. And when and why did they build that huge honking USPS facility next door? It's gargantuan. (I only know this from Google streetview and Bing maps. That part of Arlington is really far outside my orbit, and has been ever since I stopped carrying mail in, you guessed it, the late 1970s.)

[dcs]

And when and why did they build that huge honking USPS facility next door? It's gargantuan. (I only know this from Google streetview and Bing maps.

That must be a good 15 or so years old by now. I do not know when (or if) the Westover Market became a destination, but they are certainly trying hard with their Great Wall of Beer, beer and wine tastings, and their Beer Garden concert schedule. Hopefully this butcher shop will fill the void in Arlington that I have felt since we lost Mel at Pica Deli.

[The Hersch]

I find a Wikipedia article on the Westover neighborhood. Click on the picture of the commercial strip for a better view, circa 1975. This is pretty much as I remember it. Drug Fair! You can barely see the sign in this picture, but the supermarket was called Metro Market, and beyond that you can just make out the US flag at the then dinky little post office (then as now called Preston King station) and the sign for the Black Forest Inn on the near side of the P.O., which was a pretty good place to have lunch. Burgers and subs and a few German specialties, run by a German chap named Rolf Renschler. I think he had Dortmunder Union on tap. (If you remember the 1970s, you'll probably remember that bottled Heineken was about the best you could hope for at most places.) No idea when it closed, but the bloated new post office fills the space where it was.

[dcs]

<snip> and the sign for the Black Forest Inn on the near side of the P.O., which was a pretty good place to have lunch. Burgers and subs and a few German specialties, run by a German chap named Rolf Renschler. I think he had Dortmunder Union on tap. (If you remember the 1970s, you'll probably remember that bottled Heineken was about the best you could hope for at most places.) No idea when it closed, but the bloated new post office fills the space where it was.

It did not close, it is now buried inside the strip mall on the same block with a single door leading to the back by the parking lot where the main bar area is located. They moved it as part of the post office redevelopment effort. click

In an effort to satisfy the larger square footage requirements of the post office our challenge was to also reconfigure the Westover Shopping Center to accommodate the relocation of the popular Westover Bakery and The Forest Inn restaurant within the center.

[The Hersch]

It did not close, it is now buried inside the strip mall on the same block with a single door leading to the back by the parking lot where the main bar area is located. They moved it as part of the post office redevelopment effort. click

Well I never. They seemed to have dropped the "Black" from the name, along with the German food, and turned it into a really foul-sounding dive bar, from what I gather by googling. Are you saying it's not even visible from the street? Not even a sign?

[brucesaunders]

I'd like to follow up on Zora's post from earlier. Bruce Saunders here and yes, it's true, I am in the process of opening a new butcher shop in North Arlington. Actually it's an old butcher shop that I'm moving into. For those familiar with the area, it's in the Westover Market (www.westovermarket.com), located in the Westover community along Washington Blvd. I'm sure many of you are familiar with the store and the general area. It's home to some old and new Arlington classics; Ayer's Variety Store, Lost Dog Pizza Deli, Golden Valet, a real hometown community kind of place.

If you've been in the Westover Market you may have noticed that there is in fact a butcher shop located along the back wall of the store, immediately behind the deli space. I moved into this area in 1987, so I recall when the butcher shop was an active part of the store and more utilized than it has been in recent years. Last fall I approached the family that currently owns the store to see if they were interested in breathing some new life into this aspect of their business. So last week we came to an agreement and very soon we'll be (re)opening 'The Butcher Shop at Westover Market'.

Many of already know me and have bought meat and poultry products from me. As a co-owner of EcoFriendly Foods (www.ecofriendly.com), I've been selling clean, humanely raised, pasture fed meats at the Arlington Courthouse Farmers Market and Dupont Circle Fresh Farm Market for many years. Bev and I have talked about a real butcher shop venue for our products for a long time. And we believe that Westover Market is a great place for us to start.

So here's the scoop... I'm looking towards a May 7th soft opening and a grand opening on May 22nd (please note that there's a whole lot to be done between now and then so these dates may have to shift slightly, I'll keep you posted). But the plan is to create a real butcher shop in the heart of north Arlington. We will primarily feature the fine meat and poultry products of EcoFriendly Foods, but I will be bringing in products from other local farms as needed. But regardless of the source, we will only sell foods that follow the EFF protocols for sustainable farming; the animals must be humanely raised outside on pasture (NO CAFOs), free of any medications or chemicals and all of the multi-gastric species (beef, lamb, goat) must be 100% grass-fed and grass-finished. So the high quality products you've enjoyed from our farmers market stand will now be available in a home style butcher shop, right here in the neighborhood.

So stayed tuned as all of the details come together and I look forward to serving our community with good healthy food products. See you at Westover!

brs

[chaofun]

Hey Bruce nice to see you on the board!! I was wondering would you consider bringing in Roseda Beef from Monkton, Md? I love their stuff but they only mail order or have you pick it up on site. Gunpowder Bison (also from Monkton, Md) would be cool too as in the winter they are only available in the Md markets.

By the way that shoulder I picked up this past weekend turned out money on the smoker, after I cut the leg off.

-Theo

[brucesaunders]

Hey Bruce nice to see you on the board!! I was wondering would you consider bringing in Roseda Beef from Monkton, Md? I love their stuff but they only mail order or have you pick it up on site. Gunpowder Bison (also from Monkton, Md) would be cool too as in the winter they are only available in the Md markets.

By the way that shoulder I picked up this past weekend turned out money on the smoker, after I cut the leg off.

-Theo

The short answer re: Roseda is yes, I want to talk to them, find out more about their growing standards. I know Nathan over at Red Apron is using them and his charcuterie kicks butt. Likewise Gunpowder. Glad the pork shoulder worked out. I hope you smoked that shank too. Great addition to your next bean pot or collard greens.
brs

[chaofun]

The short answer re: Roseda is yes, I want to talk to them, find out more about their growing standards. I know Nathan over at Red Apron is using them and his charcuterie kicks butt. Likewise Gunpowder. Glad the pork shoulder worked out. I hope you smoked that shank too. Great addition to your next bean pot or collard greens.
brs

Great! Looking forward to it. As far as the trotter and shank, Mom claimed it after I cut it off... Mom always get what she wants, she earned it

[The Hersch]

I'd like to follow up on Zora's post from earlier. Bruce Saunders here and yes, it's true, I am in the process of opening a new butcher shop in North Arlington.

Sorry if I diverted the thread into my trip down memory lane. Although Westover is WAAY out of my way, I'll be sure to buy some meat from you when you're open. Best of luck.

[zoramargolis]

Bruce is having a soft opening on Thursday, May 14th. I know that he will greatly appreciate well-wishers stopping by.

[brucesaunders]

Right date, wrong day of the week. We will open Friday the 14th at noon. Many thanks for everyone's support!

my bad...

No worries. You've been a great supporter for many years.

[chaofun]

Stopped by on my lunch break scored something I could never get at the farmers market from eco-friendly.... short ribs! Win! Maybe I can push my luck and ask for Pork back ribs next time.....

[SeanMike]

This is terrific news for Westover Market. Now I have more excuses to blow lots of cash in there...

[deangold]

Stopped by on my lunch break scored something I could never get at the farmers market from eco-friendly.... short ribs! Win! Maybe I can push my luck and ask for Pork back ribs next time.....

And don't they have the wall of beer so you can pick out a rich ale to slow braise the short ribs in?

Or get them cross cut fairly thin and grill them Galbi LA Style after a light soak in sweetened soy with ginger & black pepper.

[chaofun]

And don't they have the wall of beer so you can pick out a rich ale to slow braise the short ribs in?

Or get them cross cut fairly thin and grill them Galbi LA Style after a light soak in sweetened soy with ginger & black pepper.

Both are wonderful ideas!

[gastronaut]

I couldn't make the soft opening, but my girlfriend tells me she was your first customer :-)

She picked up a beautiful bone-in leg of lamb. We smeared it with a paste of garlic and herbs from the garden and olive oil, vacuum sealed it, and let it sit in the fridge for the day. In the evening, we cooked it sous vide for 3 hours at 135F, then finished it by browning briefly under the broiler. It came out tender, pink, and flavorful.

I'd definitely try this again but maybe sous vide at 130F to get a bit richer pink.

I look forward to visiting you myself!

[LauraB]

It's a long trek from Rockville, but I'd like to pay a visit to EcoFriendly at the Westover Market. Can anyone tell me if the butcher shop is open all of the hours of the Market (M-Sat 8-10, Sun 10-10), or does it have limited hours? I'd not like to drive all that way only to find EcoFriendly closed.

[monavano]

It's a long trek from Rockville, but I'd like to pay a visit to EcoFriendly at the Westover Market. Can anyone tell me if the butcher shop is open all of the hours of the Market (M-Sat 8-10, Sun 10-10), or does it have limited hours? I'd not like to drive all that way only to find EcoFriendly closed.

Here's the hours from the website, or go to the Arlington Courthouse market on Sat morn. , or Dupont on Sun. morn. You never know what you might find. Why, just this morning, i purchased a ribeye (the only one) from Courthouse.

[chaofun]

Here's the hours from the website, or go to the Arlington Courthouse market on Sat morn. , or Dupont on Sun. morn. You never know what you might find. Why, just this morning, i purchased a ribeye (the only one) from Courthouse.

One thing to add, Sunday is no longer being staffed due to low foot traffic. http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/westoverbutchershop/posts/130148200342354

[LauraB]

Here's the hours from the website, or go to the Arlington Courthouse market on Sat morn. , or Dupont on Sun. morn. You never know what you might find. Why, just this morning, i purchased a ribeye (the only one) from Courthouse.

So they're still selling at Dupont and Courthouse markets? I was under the impression that they had stopped selling at farmers markets since opening at the Westover Market.

[brucesaunders]

It's a long trek from Rockville, but I'd like to pay a visit to EcoFriendly at the Westover Market. Can anyone tell me if the butcher shop is open all of the hours of the Market (M-Sat 8-10, Sun 10-10), or does it have limited hours? I'd not like to drive all that way only to find EcoFriendly closed.

We're open Wednesday thru Saturday, noon until 7:oo PM. On Sunday's I stock the reach-in case immediately to the left of our butcher display case with some self-serve products in vacuum sealed packages. Tomorrow for example there will be top sirloin steaks, ground beef, a couple of exceptional thick cut beef rib steaks, pork loin chops, breakfast sausage, boneless skinless chicken breasts, whole chicken legs, pork blade steaks and probably a few other things I'm not remembering. Like brat burgers. These are really good and are quickly becoming a bestseller at the shop. We're seasoning fresh ground pork with bratwurst seasoning and forming it into patties which you prepare and serve just like a hamburger. Also we're beginning to offer some prepared products along side the other self serve items. There's some lard, pork cracklins and my Homemade BBQ sauce. Thanks to everyone for your wonderful support!

[mdt]

So they're still selling at Dupont and Courthouse markets? I was under the impression that they had stopped selling at farmers markets since opening at the Westover Market.

Not true. As Bruce can detail EcoFriendly meats are just one supplier to the Westover Market.

[SeanMike]

So I went by today to pick up a ton of beer, and wandered by the butcher shop. Well, to be honest, someone was talking at the counter, so I went to the self-serve, and saw a couple of gorgeous ribeyes, like none I'd ever seen before. Giddy, I bought the biggest one - nearly an inch thick, probably, and I think weighing around 1.2 pounds (hard to read) though it cost only $12.68.

Took it home, put in the broiler with only Worcestershire Sauce and Montreal steak seasoning on it, cooked it for 8 minutes the first side, 6 the second, then let it sit for five minutes.

O.
M.
F.
G.

Perfect.

Wonderful.

Delicious.

Now I'm on my second Founder's KBS and wishing I was sober enough to drive back and buy another.

[NolaCaine]

I am SO HAPPY RIGHT NOW!!! How did I not know this?

I go to Westover all the time. It's a neighborhood tradition to go to Ayres or the Great Wall of beer twice a day on both Sat and Sun...after circling the neighborhood and asking "do you need anything" like we're going to mars or something.

I will visit you b/c I still can't believe that I didn't notice! I blame my PP status. I"m fuzzy brained often which is why I'm paying 40% more at westover...I digress.

[NolaCaine]

Got a bird yesterday. Did a simple roast so I could determine quality. Wasn't frozen before cooking. Had friend over so slightly overcooked it and yet still it was perfect! Love, love, love the bird. Husband very impressed with breast in particular. Juicy. chicken-y. Much prefer to Falls Church Farmer's for the simple fact that it wasn't frozen.

I have questions: If there is lamb shoulder in the case, does that mean there are other lamb parts to be had for the asking?
How are the parts? Do you butcher at request or do you have other lamb parts/cow pig whatever, in the back, pre-butchered?

The pork chops were HUGE...had I asked, could I have gotten smaller chops?

Do you sell bones for broth?

Finally, while we were de-meating the carcass, a neighbor came over. We told her about the chicken and she didn't know there was an organic butcher in westover market. She buys organic at whole foods. Again, these are people who (a) shop at westover ( shop at whole foods and © are not vegetarians. I'm not sure how to get your word out but if you would like for me to host a bbq, let me know.

(We are in waycroft-woodlawn)

[brucesaunders]

I have questions: If there is lamb shoulder in the case, does that mean there are other lamb parts to be had for the asking?
How are the parts? Do you butcher at request or do you have other lamb parts/cow pig whatever, in the back, pre-butchered?

The pork chops were HUGE...had I asked, could I have gotten smaller chops?

Do you sell bones for broth?

The short answer to all of these is, yes, always ask. We sometimes have things in the back that are not on display. Being a small shop and a new business, I'm always looking for a balance between getting a good representative sample of the products in the display and keeping things as fresh as possible by holding them wrapped and in the walk-in cooler. And yes, if you want a thinner pork chop, ask. We can often accommodate. I do have some bones that are available for stock making but mostly I use them for making stock myself. Historically that has gone into other products like the BBQ sauce or soups, but starting this week, you'll be able to purchase our ready made chicken stock to take home.

With re: to getting the word out, just tell everyone you know and send them over. We're open Wednesday through Saturday, noon until 7:00 PM. I try to have a limited selection of self serve product packaged and available in the case immediately to the left of our regular display case. I've had troubles with our vacuum seal machine recently and that has hindered that effort a couple of times. Hosting a BBQ would be something to consider as a promotional event. We did a whole pig roast in early June at the store and may do more of those. Thanks for your support and interest in our products!

[chaofun]

Hey all,

I've been assisting Bruce when I can in my free time. This past week we started experimenting with making bacon in house. We made a bunch of traditional maple cured bacon, and some cracked pepper cured bacon. Just smoked them over apple wood last night. I expect them to be displayed soon if anybody wants to try. I have made bacon many many times at home with good results so if you stop by the market sometime check it out.

-Theo

[brucesaunders]

We made a bunch of traditional maple cured bacon, and some cracked pepper cured bacon. Just smoked them over apple wood last night.

I just talked to Cody at the shop and he had made himself a BLT with the new bacon. He says SOOOOO - WEEEEEE!

[goodeats]

I just talked to Cody at the shop and he had made himself a BLT with the new bacon. He says SOOOOO - WEEEEEE!

Seconded. Bacon used in the corn with tomato side salad was delish!

ETA: For those unfamiliar with the market, the deli/sandwich counter is separate from the butcher counter. The butcher counter is next to the packaged deli meats, near the great wall o' beer.

Edited by goodeats, 02 August 2010 - 11:03 AM.

[chaofun]

Finally getting some free time to make another round of bacon. The bellies are curing now, I expect to smoke them Friday evening (27th) and have them ready for sale at the market that Saturday. Bruce wanted the maple pepper cure so that's what we made!

-Theo

[chaofun]

This round of bacon was smoked yesterday in the smoker and I have to admit it's some of the finest looking bacon yet. We were thinking of doing a special bacon every batch in addition to the standard maple cracked pepper. Today we are going to try a curing a round batch of Chipotle honey bacon as well. All to be smoked next Friday. Till then the standard is there if you want it!

-Theo

[KMango]

Not nearly enough time to write a worthy post, but I wanted to add another quick shout out to the Butcher Shop at Westover Market. Popped into the deli counter to snag a couple of BBQ sandwiches to go. $8 each, these delivered incredible flavor, a large portion, and outstanding renditions of baked beans (with the BACON) and cole slaw. This is BBQ done right, damn right. With a better bun, this would be unstoppable perfect.

On the way out, popped over to the butcher counter and grabbed two Brat burgers for a friend who plans to grill them tomorrow. The burgers, along with all other butcher shop selections such as whole turkey breast, ground beef, gorgeous chicken liver, turkey sausage, and other pristine selections, looked amazing.

The BBQ party happening every Friday evening out back sounded like a beer-toasting good time, but with a dog in tow, could not join the crowd. If you've not made it to Westover yet, aim for a Friday night. Enjoy BBQ on the patio with the lively setting for dinner, and then hit the butcher counter on the way out. Bring a cooler, because you'll want to take everything home with you.

And the sign on the patio may also catch your eye: "Food & WiFi". Those words together form the world's strongest Mango Magnet.

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[SeanMike]

This round of bacon was smoked yesterday in the smoker and I have to admit it's some of the finest looking bacon yet. We were thinking of doing a special bacon every batch in addition to the standard maple cracked pepper. Today we are going to try a curing a round batch of Chipotle honey bacon as well. All to be smoked next Friday. Till then the standard is there if you want it!

I am so excited about that batch (which I was told about last time I was there). Unfortunately, I'm in NC, so I'm hoping a kind soul who I asked will hook me up.

[chaofun]

I am so excited about that batch (which I was told about last time I was there). Unfortunately, I'm in NC, so I'm hoping a kind soul who I asked will hook me up.

We are making it every week now so we should be stocked for a while, as long as there are bellies to cure. FYI we did a very small amount of the chipotle honey bacon (for testing purposes) and it's pretty freakin good. There's not too much of it but if you ask Bruce you might be able to score some. Well prob be doing more next week.

PS - Nice to see you last night kmango!

[chaofun]

Some new things are brewing!

We've gone full swing into the sausages, we are trying a spicy Mexican chorizo today and have some Italian sausage links as well. Additionally next week we should have some awesome stuff from Roseda Beef, as we start showcasing other regional meats from the best farms in the area. Also we got plenty of bacon, chipotle honey and maple ground pepper.

Tomorrow there will be a tasting in the afternoon of some of our stuff, drop by and say hi to Bruce and Cody!

Update: I just tried the chorizo.... it's pretty damn good.

[brucesaunders]

Good Morning Everyone. As Chaofun mentioned The Butcher Shop at Westover Market will be offering beef from Roseda Farm (www.rosedabeef.com) starting this week. Many of you may be familiar with Roseda already. They have a great reputation for their angus beef raised at their Monktown, MD farm and at other affiliated farms in the Mid-Atlantic region. It is a bit of a departure for us to carry grain finished beef, but after research and conversations with Roseda, I feel like their overall farming practices warrant offering their products to our customers. If the response is good then we'll carry their products on a regular basis. This week I have rib eyes, NY strips and a nice sirloin. Also I got a GORGEOUS brisket, untrimmed, heavily marbled and weighing in at 22+ pounds (I'll cut you a smaller piece) it's looking for a good smoker to call home for the weekend! So come by and taste a great piece of beef from a local producer.

[Anna Blume]

Good Morning Everyone. As Chaofun mentioned The Butcher Shop at Westover Market will be offering beef from Roseda Farm (www.rosedabeef.com) starting this week. Many of you may be familiar with Roseda already. They have a great reputation for their angus beef raised at their Monktown, MD farm and at other affiliated farms in the Mid-Atlantic region. It is a bit of a departure for us to carry grain finished beef, but after research and conversations with Roseda, I feel like their overall farming practices warrant offering their products to our customers.

Certainly one has to distinguish a local farm raising its own animals until the bitter end from ranches that ship their cows off to feed lots, but I wonder if you're able to share more information about what persuaded you to offer grain-finished beef. From what I understand, cows cannot digest those grains without antibiotics. While many home cooks and restauranteurs swear that they--and their diners--prefer the taste of grain-finished beef, I thought the post-WWII practice of switching bovine diets from grazing pastures to harvested grains was originally a matter of expediency.

[zoramargolis]

Certainly one has to distinguish a local farm raising its own animals until the bitter end from ranches that ship their cows off to feed lots, but I wonder if you're able to share more information about what persuaded you to offer grain-finished beef. From what I understand, cows cannot digest those grains without antibiotics. While many home cooks and restauranteurs swear that they--and their diners--prefer the taste of grain-finished beef, I thought the post-WWII practice of switching bovine diets from grazing pastures to harvested grains was originally a matter of expediency.

Not sure about the origins, but it is true that many people prefer the flavor/texture of corn-finished beef vs. 100% grass-fed. I recall the controversy at the Dupont Circle market a number of years ago, when the previous owners of The Farm at Sunnyside (then called Sunnyside Organics) were selling their amazingly delicious local grass-fed beef. The problem was that the cows were shipped to the Midwest for a month or so of corn-finishing, and processed there, then the meat was sent back to VA for sale. Eventually, they withdrew the product from the market, sold it only to restaurants, and then stopped raising cattle prior to selling the farm to the current owners. It was by far the most delicious beef I can recall eating.

There are a few local farms now experimenting with grass-feeding beef cattle and finishing them with locally-raised corn. The cows are then processed locally. This obviates the need to ship the animals, with all attendant issues of carbon footprint, etc. My understanding is that Roseda Farms is one of these farms.

[Anna Blume]

There are a few local farms now experimenting with grass-feeding beef cattle and finishing them with locally-raised corn. The cows are then processed locally. This obviates the need to ship the animals, with all attendant issues of carbon footprint, etc. My understanding is that Roseda Farms is one of these farms.

Right. This I knew--see my post above. What about the antibiotics?

(Briefly re origins of practice: federal subsidies for grain plus quicker rate of fattening at feed lots lowered cost. What do you do w all those empty munitions factories? Process food. But that's only tangentially related and not particularly relevant to local scene of grain-finishing cattle before they complete.)

[chaofun]

Right. This I knew--see my post above. What about the antibiotics?

(Briefly re origins of practice: federal subsidies for grain plus quicker rate of fattening at feed lots lowered cost. What do you do w all those empty munitions factories? Process food. But that's only tangentially related and not particularly relevant to local scene of grain-finishing cattle before they complete.)

As far as I understand they only give antibiotics to animals that are sick. Never otherwise. The animals are healthy though and this happens very rarely. For those that are interested here is what Roseda says on their own site:

http://www.rosedabee...m/knowbeef.html

I've met the folks that run the farm and toured it myself and I can say without hesitation they genuinely care about their animals, how they are treated, and the overall effect they have on the environment. They are strong believers that the way they are raising their animals is what is healthiest for the animal and the right way to do it.

That said of course there are many opinions on this. In general I'll stand with any local farmer that really cares about his or her animals. Not everyone will agree with their practices. Bruce though for sure will make sure the customer is aware of the differences in the beef, so you all can make your own informed decisions.

In the area I feel most fit to judge, taste, Roseda I believe is second to none. It was me who suggested them to Bruce (which you can see upthread), so clearly I am a fan. But if anybody is interested enough, Slow Food DC is doing a tour of their farm, and you can see for yourself how they operate and ask any sort of questions you may have. (Disclaimer, I am a Slow Food DC board member and my wife (jchao) is running the event. Sorry for the plug, but Roseda doesn't do regular tours so it seemed reasonable to mention.)

On a separate note, if you get to the market and are a fan of brisket get some. The brisket is like the size of my torso and the marbling is gorgeous (it is a Roseda brisket). We are going to be doing some bacon testing over the weekend as well, lots of flavors coming up.

[Anna Blume]

As far as I understand they only give antibiotics to animals that are sick. Never otherwise. The animals are healthy though and this happens very rarely. For those that are interested here is what Roseda says on their own site:

http://www.rosedabee...m/knowbeef.html

Thanks for the link! They say they don't give the cows antibiotics "unless medically necessary"--so is Michael Pollan wrong or does it become medically necessary for most cows sooner or later?

At least, it's from reading and listening to Michael Pollan that I have been led to believe cows simply cannot digest corn readily and that, well, from not the greatest source, but it's late and I'm too lazy to find something more authoritatively reliable:

The problem with them digesting corn is, in the cow's 4 digestive 'tract' system, the corn can end up being partially or incompletely digested, which typically allows the corn to ferment in one of the 'stomachs' & allows for collection of bacteria unfriendly to a cow's digestive system. Typically this is E. coli, usually a strain that is not native to that cow, and then it tends to infect their stomach, become an abscess, or worse starts spreading throughout their system. Infected cows can get what we would call septicemia, a blood infection, or worse peritonitis, which is a general abdominal infection with the bacteria from the E. coli infections. To combat these possible deadly outcomes for the cow, the beef industry routinely give their cattle antibiotics to keep these bacterial infections at bay.

( Source; my googling key words also got me an MP interview w Terri Gross and lots of propaganda against factory-farmed animals which I will say again, I know is not what is going on here and I know someone as knowledgeable and caring as Bruce Saunders would not condone.) I genuinely am interested in knowing whether or not local grain-finished cows can lead normal, healthy lives unto death without being given antibiotics or other stuff like that.

[chaofun]

Thanks for the link! They say they don't give the cows antibiotics "unless medically necessary"--so is Michael Pollan wrong or does it become medically necessary for most cows sooner or later?

At least, it's from reading and listening to Michael Pollan that I have been led to believe cows simply cannot digest corn readily and that, well, from not the greatest source, but it's late and I'm too lazy to find something more authoritatively reliable:
( Source; my googling key words also got me an MP interview w Terri Gross and lots of propaganda against factory-farmed animals which I will say again, I know is not what is going on here and I know someone as knowledgeable and caring as Bruce Saunders would not condone.) I genuinely am interested in knowing whether or not local grain-finished cows can lead normal, healthy lives unto death without being given antibiotics or other stuff like that.

From my little research, it seems like folks like Roseda follows the original Bill Niman script (not what Niman Ranch has become post Niman's exit) while the good folks at Ecofriendly follow Joel Salatin's practices. That doesn't really answer your question, but at least now, cause I would like to know too, I know where to do more research.

[brucesaunders]

Sorry for the delay in getting back to this conversation. I'll try to cover as many of these questions and comments as possible.

First of all the feed/finishing. According to Roseda, their primary finishing feeds are sileage and spent grains from two local breweries, Troegs and Clipper City. The grains from the breweries will primarily be barley and maybe a fewer other grains in lesser quantities (think wheat beer). These grains go through a process called malting whereby the grains are moistened and then gently warmed so that they begin to sprout. This sprouting process converts starches to sugars that can be digested by the beer yeasts. Once the sugars are extracted (a process called sparging) you're left with a waste product of whole grains minus most of the sugar. Sileage is a corn based feed produced by mowing down the whole corn plant (stalk, leaves, ears and all) and chopping them into small pieces. A single machine does this in the field, spewing the chopped plants into a dump truck which is taken to a location to be stockpiled (usually just long piles on the ground, covered with plastic). The sileage begins to ferment almost immediately . I worked on an angus farm when I was a kid and when we would go to the sileage piles in the winter, a big plume of steam would rise up as you dug into it from the bacterial activity (not unlike your mulch pile). According to Roseda they feed very little corn (beyond the corn kernels in the sileage) because a) corn has become very expensive and they have this source of feed from the breweries that is nutritious and available at little cost other than hauling. And while I have no scientific proof to back this theory up, I suspect that the malting process in the beer grains and the natural fermentation of the sileage makes both of these feeds more readily digestible to the animals than straight, dried grains which is the norm for grain based animal feeds (think lactofermentation, see cover story in the Post Food Section a couple of weeks ago). The finishing takes place at a local feedlot in PA so as Zora pointed out, this negates the need for long distance shipping to the midwest feedlots, thus minimizinging the carbon footprint in that process.

With regard to medications, as you noted from Roseda's literature, they administer meds only on an as needed basis. This differentiates them from the industry in that the industry practice in commercial feedlots is to administer meds prophylactily with medicated feeds. Consequently it's a given that every animal passing throught that system is dosed with probiotics throughout their entire time at the feedlot. In my conversation with Roseda, they indicate that approximately 3 out of every 10 animals actually ever require meds.

As Chaofun has pointed out, I believe that Roseda has a genuine concern for their animal's welfare and for stewardship of the land. And I also agree that there is a customer base that prefers the taste and other qualities of the grain finished product. As a business person trying to operate a small business, I have to take that into account along with other practical matters of product price and availability. I have had grass finished beef from several different sources and I can agree that if not properly aged, the meat can have some negative attributes. Fresh, it can be somewhat tart in character and more often than not, just downright tough. And most people are not willing to take the time and incur the expense it takes to properly dry age an all-grass-fed beef (think 60-80 days of hanging/aging time) I personally think the best piece of beef available in this area is EcoFriendly Food's grass finished, dry aged beef (disclosure: for those of you who don't know me, I am a long time associate of Bev's and a co-owner of EFF). But I also know that there have been times when that product is unavailable and the price point is very difficult for me to offer it at a reasonable price to my customers. So as a small business I have to consider price and availability in my equation to try to make this business work. Believe me it has not been a quick or easy decision to go outside the grass finished model that I have supported for so long. But I've come to believe that Roseda's practice is sound enough and the needs and desires of my customers warrant offering their product.

[NolaCaine]

Not to change the subject or anything but the maple-bacon and the...chili-something bacon were FANTASTIC Bruce. Husband asked for more the next day and was sad when I told him it was all in the soup. I made potato-cabbage soup and the only seasoning was homemade chicken broth and Bruce's bacon (1/4 lb to a huge cabbage).

[chaofun]

Not to change the subject or anything but the maple-bacon and the...chili-something bacon were FANTASTIC Bruce. Husband asked for more the next day and was sad when I told him it was all in the soup. I made potato-cabbage soup and the only seasoning was homemade chicken broth and Bruce's bacon (1/4 lb to a huge cabbage).

Chipotle-honey is the bacon you are thinking of. Thx so much we have been working really hard on the product. We are testing out a bunch of flavors now so new ones are coming in the near future.

[Anna Blume]

Sorry for the delay in getting back to this conversation. I'll try to cover as many of these questions and comments as possible.

Thanks!!! Since it's already tomorrow, I am going to go back and read this more thoroughly some time after breakfast. For now, I'd like to report that a chef and I spoke to a farmer today whose beef is 100% grass fed. Before I had access to your very thorough comments, I briefly outlined some of the questions asked here without mentioning names. She thought any small, local operation wouldn't subject their cows to the kind of monotonous diet one finds on commercial feed lots and that the cows would most likely have access to grass, wouldn't be consuming big quantities of any one grain, etc. If this were the case, the animals wouldn't be all that susceptible to the problems that plague those requiring antibiotics.

[brucesaunders]

the maple-bacon and the...chili-something bacon were FANTASTIC Bruce..

Glad you liked the bacon. Much more of that to come. We're trying on a lot of new and creative flavors for the bacon, several made with beers from the Great Wall of Beer in the store. Also I want to let everyone know that I have a nice batch of beef short ribs from Roseda so speaking of cooking with beer, short ribs marinated and braised in beer is REALLY DELISH! One of my personal faves is Scottish Ale but any beer with a nice malty body would work. Also for the first time I have some of Bill Jones' Forest Fed, Babes in the Woods (www.forestfed.com) pork at the shop this week. I'm excited to offer this product. I talked to Bill last week and his fine swine is feeding heavily on a bumper crop of fall mast including acorns, hickory nuts, even wild mushrooms as they pop up. So come by a try some forest finished pork. It's a great fall treat!