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The Palena Chicken Project


Al Dente

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I get my star anise (and other goodies) at Da Hua (I think that's the name) in DC Chinatown. It's on H St. between 6th & 7th as I recall....

Unfortunately I'm pretty sure Da Hua closed some time back due to increasing rent prices. Not sure what has moved into that space.

Thanks to everyone's suggestions about star anise--I'm heading to Yes! Gourmet tonight after work.

One last question--regarding the brine time and air dry time for the chicken. The timing seems kind of awkward since 24 hours is recommended for the brine, and 6-8 hours for drying time--and really the only time to start the brine is in the evenings, meaning that if the chicken went into the brine one evening, it would come out the following evening, but then would likely rest for another 24 hours before being cooked. Which part should I sacrifice: a shorter brine of 12 hours overnight, or the longer air drying time in the fridge? I would imagine that a 36 hour brine would be too long and render the chicken salty.

thanks

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Reporting in on my entry to the Palena Chicken Project. I essentially followed Al Dente's revised brine but added more peppercorns, halved the vanilla and had to sub cardamom seeds instead of pods because they don't sell pods in these parts. Yeah, I know, Penzy's. I brined overnight and let dry in the fridge while I was at work. I added 2 smashed cloves of garlic to my mirepoix and some diced squash because I had it handy and why not. I took Chef Pangaud's advice and brushed the chicken with melted butter several times. Started it at 450 for 20 minutes and then dropped down to 425.

This is the best damn chicken I ever roasted. Very flavorful. Very moist. My cat was dancing around my feet begging for scraps.

Changes for next time. I definitely need to dry the chicken longer as the sides were a little soft. The part that did crisp was very crispy and definitely darker then my usual roasting. Even though I said this was the best damn chicken I ever roasted, I still think it is missing some flavor(s) but I haven't a clue what.

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Unfortunately I'm pretty sure Da Hua closed some time back due to increasing rent prices.  Not sure what has moved into that space.

Thanks to everyone's suggestions about star anise--I'm heading to Yes! Gourmet tonight after work.

One last question--regarding the brine time and air dry time for the chicken.  The timing seems kind of awkward since 24 hours is recommended for the brine, and 6-8 hours for drying time--and really the only time to start the brine is in the evenings, meaning that if the chicken went into the brine one evening, it would come out the following evening, but then would likely rest for another 24 hours before being cooked.  Which part should I sacrifice: a shorter brine of 12 hours overnight, or the longer air drying time in the fridge?  I would imagine that a 36 hour brine would be too long and render the chicken salty.

thanks

Not sure what to tell you Darth. I started my brine on a Sat morning, yanked it out Sun morning, and let it air dry all afternoon before roasting. I suppose I could have gotten away with less brining and I definitely could have used more drying time.
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Definately saw star anise at the Whole Foods on P St. last week as I shopped last week. Of course, my chicken was already brining by that point. I had gone to Yes Gourmet the previous morning but obviously didn't look in the right section. I only found half the needed spices so just omitted what I lacked.

I was serving 11 people so I ended up brining two 6 lbs birds overnight and drying in the fridge from morning to early evening.

The meat came out very moist but I didn't get the skin all that right. I am going to try again soon with a single smaller bird (probably cut in half) -- I won't be so overwhelmed trying to carve two big roasters.

I was definitely impressed with how the meat came out but want to try and get the skin right...

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Even though I said this was the best damn chicken I ever roasted, I still think it is missing some flavor(s) but I haven't a clue what.

Good work! You're adding to the collective wisdom. Any idea what kind of taste is missing? Earthiness? Sweetness? Spicyness?

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Good work! You're adding to the collective wisdom. Any idea what kind of taste is missing? Earthiness? Sweetness? Spicyness?

Earthiness for sure and maybe a touch of something spicy to tingle your tongue ever so slightly. Maybe some ginger for the tingle? Mustard seed? Marjaram?

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Okay my brine is cooling down at this moment. I added the rosemary back, in addtion to green cardamon, I added black cardamon also. I added mustard seeds back and candied ginger as I didn't have any regular ginger.

The only problem is I have no Palena chicken to compare it to, so I am going there next week to compare theirs to mine! :)

Edited to correct spelling and ponder, is it me or does everyone's spelling go down the drain as they get older? :o

Edited by RaisaB
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Earthiness for sure and maybe a touch of something spicy to tingle your tongue ever so slightly.  Maybe some ginger for the tingle?  Mustard seed? Marjaram?

I thought it needed something spicy too. Ginger could be worth a shot. Paprika of some kind maybe?

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When roasting those half chickens, did you simply have them sitting on your bed of carrot, onion, celery chunks?  Or did you place them on a rack? 

I'm wondering what might happen if I put the rack in upside down and leaned each half of the chicken on each side of it.

I put it on a bed of mirepoix. You could definitely try your rack trick.

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I roasted my chickens last night. I also had uneven browning, probably due to the high sugar content. I used one recipe of brine for double the amount of chicken. I bought the organic free range chickens at Eastern Market! My family's opinion? Theythought it was moist, crispy and delicious! My opinion? YUCK! I like chicken to taste like chicken! This brine masked any chicken taste! Too much going on.

Unfortuantey since they all loved it, I will probably make it again.

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When roasting those half chickens, did you simply have them sitting on your bed of carrot, onion, celery chunks?  Or did you place them on a rack? 

I'm wondering what might happen if I put the rack in upside down and leaned each half of the chicken on each side of it.

Well? Please report!

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Well?  Please report!

Well, the report is not very conclusive for The Project as I wasn't trying to recreate Palena, but I did want to get my feet wet a little before I go all out and join this party. I simply brined overnight 2 half chickens from WF in the salt along with some sliced chiles, black peppercorns, bay leaves and a little sugar.

They then dried in the fridge for about 8 hours.

Preheated oven to 500 and roasted on an inverted V-rack over the mirepoix plus garlic cloves and parsley to which I added chicken broth and white wine. I lighly massaged the chicken with a softened butter and parsley mixture. After 20 minutes lowered the temp to 425 or so and continued cooking until my probe thermometer beeped at 158 internal temp.

The chicken was quite moist and flavorful, except for the thinner parts of the breast, which wasn't dry, but seemed to be less moist. The skin did not crisp/brown as I had hoped. That part was a failure and I'm unsure why. Possibly because of the butter. Possibly because I should have cooked the higher temp first. Perhaps steam from the wine/broth. I'm unsure.

Here's a question though. I was rather surprised at how fast my probe (pyrex brand digital) indicated the bird reached temperature. I double checked by inserting my instant read dial thermometer and that showed 10 degrees lower than the probe. I did take care to avoid all bone contact.

My inclination is to trust the digital rather than the dial. Am I right in presuming that the dial could potentially lose calibration?

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My inclination is to trust the digital rather than the dial.  Am I right in presuming that the dial could potentially lose calibration?

If the batteries are fresh, trust the digital one.

The ones with the dial can lose calibration rather easily if they get knocked around a bit. Just calibrate in some ice water (low end, probably not really necessary) and/or boiling water (high end). There is a nut below the dial that can be loosend/tightened for adjustment.

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Well, the report is not very conclusive for The Project as I wasn't trying to recreate Palena, but I did want to get my feet wet a little before I go all out and join this party.

I think the next step for us should be to get together and do this "America's Test Kitchen" style!

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Preheated oven to 500 and roasted on an inverted V-rack over the mirepoix plus garlic cloves and parsley to which I added chicken broth and white wine.  I lighly massaged the chicken with a softened butter and parsley mixture.  After 20 minutes lowered the temp to 425 or so and continued cooking until my probe thermometer beeped at 158 internal temp. 

The chicken was quite moist and flavorful, except for the thinner parts of the breast, which wasn't dry, but seemed to be less moist.  The skin did not crisp/brown as I had hoped.  That part was a failure and I'm unsure why.  Possibly because of the butter.  Possibly because I should have cooked the higher temp first.  Perhaps steam from the wine/broth.  I'm unsure. 

The whole point of roasting is to cook the meat surrounded by hot, dry air. The steam from the wine and broth created an environment of moist rather than dry heat, and thus you defeated the advance air-drying of the skin that you did. In addition, there is some water in the butter you used--olive oil would have been better. The wine-stock technique works well for meat in a barbeque, or for a very large bird like a turkey, where it is going to be cooked for a long time and the steam helps to prevent the meat from drying out. If you want crisp skin and the cooking time will be short (due to high oven temp), brown the skin in hot oil before putting in the oven or coat with oil and turn the bird around and over during the cooking, so that all sides will have equal exposure to the hottest air in the oven.

All year round, I like to roast chickens in my Weber Kettle with indirect heat. With hardwood charcoal, it gets so hot inside that the skin gets blackened even when it is not directly over the coals. I turn the bird around and over several times during the cook time (45 mins to 1 hour, depending on the size of the bird), and when it's done the skin crackles and the meat hopefully stays juicy by virtue of the advance brining.

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All year round, I like to roast chickens in my Weber Kettle with indirect heat.

Absolutely. I've tried many different techniques, including the classical French method(s) for roasting chicken, and I have never found a better way to a tender, crispy, juicy bird than the Weber grill. I don't even brine or turn the chicken, and it still comes out perfect. The only drawback, as for most grilling, is that you cannot make a pan suace.

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Perhaps there's something else that still needs to be added to the brine?

Interesting. I do think the chicken has a tea like flavor. Perhaps it might be the missing element.

Chef Ruta, if you're reading... I'll be at the bar in about an hour or so wearing black pants and a green fleece jacket. Any clues, however cryptic, would be much appreciated!!!

Edited by Al Dente
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I used Al Dente's revised recipe with some additions and the results were wonderful. I think this is pretty damn close to what I had earlier in the week. I think the brine needs a bit more salt and a touch more tarragon. Of course Frank keeps changing the brine recipe so YMMV. I increased the cinnamon and that added the earthy spice that Al Dente mentioned was missing. This was the best damn chicken that I have roasted.

post-37-1137903943_thumb.jpg

Bought 2 chickens from Whole Foods and brined them overnight. Removed from the brine and rinsed and patted dry before putting them on rack to dry in the fridge for about 24 hours. The skin was definitely dried and I had no doubt that the skin was going to be nice and crispy.

Before cooking I removed them from the fridge and split them before placing them on the counter for about 30 minutes. I lightly brushed the skin with olive oil before placing them in my oven. I have a convection oven and set it to 450F in roasting mode (top element generates the heat). After 15 minutes I changed it over to convection bake (bottom element and small portion of the top generate the heat) mode until they were done cooking. The kitchen smells wonderful when this is in the oven.

Brine recipe that I used:

3/4 c kosher salt (I would up this to 1 c)

1 c sugar

1 c honey

1/2 T dried thyme

1 T fennel seed

1 cinnamon stick

3 large bay leaves

7 cloves (I increased the amount)

11 cardamom posts -- cracked (I increased the amount)

2 T black peppercorns

1/2 T whole allspice

1/2 T vanilla extract

2 T chopped parsley

1 T dried tarragon

zest and juice of 1 lemon

3 star anise

1 gallong H20

As it was heating up I tasted the brine and thought it needed something and ended up adding the following items:

6 cloves of garlic

1/2 T corriander seeds

1/2 T garam masala (Penzey's mix)

1 t fresh ground nutmeg

1 T ground cinnamon (the stick was not doing much)

Sorry about not doing a picture with the hat and such, but we were hungry.

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I made my second entry this weekend. No whole chickens at the store so I went with a package of 3 breasts for a mini-batch. I started with half the basic Al Dente recipe and added 2 cloves garlic, some chunks of ginger, and 1 tsp mustard seed. I forgot tarragon. I used lime instead of lemon since I forgot to pick up a lemon.

Brined for 4 hours and dried in the fridge overnight and brought to room temp before cooking. Two breasts were lightly rubbed with grapeseed oil and place on a bed of mirepoix in a 475 degree oven for 20 minutes and then reduced to 425 degrees. The third breast was seared with a little grapeseed oil and then into the 425 degree oven to finish.

Verdict -- The ginger and garlic were nice additions but not noticeable enough. I'm thinking of infusing the oil with the ginger and garlic next time. The additional time drying in the fridge made a world of difference in the oven cooked skin. The oven roasted chicken was far superior to the stove top both in terms of evenly browned, crispy skin without dark spots and for the pan sauce that benefited from the mirepoix flavor. The breasts cooked very quickly and I probably should have turned the temp down sooner. The shorter brining yielded a milder flavor that was still quite noticeable for the plain chicken and will be more flexible as I turn the chicken into various lunches this week.

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So, I'm brining...

do y'all rinse the brine off the chicken before you let it air-dry? I thought I saw a "rinse" in mdt's instructions but didn't pick up on a general rinse/norinse recommendation. The chicken's still whole, so rinsing's a hassle, but will the skin be too salty without the washing?

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So, I'm brining...

do y'all rinse the brine off the chicken before you let it air-dry? I thought I saw a "rinse" in mdt's instructions but didn't pick up on a general rinse/norinse recommendation. The chicken's still whole, so rinsing's a hassle, but will the skin be too salty without the washing?

I always rinse after brining so I cannot say if it makes a difference. A hassle to rinse? You can always cut the chicken first then rinse.

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So, I'm brining...

do y'all rinse the brine off the chicken before you let it air-dry? I thought I saw a "rinse" in mdt's instructions but didn't pick up on a general rinse/norinse recommendation. The chicken's still whole, so rinsing's a hassle, but will the skin be too salty without the washing?

So, how did it turn out?

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I was holding off on my report until I could transfer the photos off my camera, but I can add those in later. Then y'all can see my hat. And, of course, the chicken.

It was delicious, but saltier than I expected. The wings were like potato chips. And that with only a cup of salt in the brine! And unfortunately I can't report on whether the skin was crisp, since I got too involved in taking pictures and by the time I got around to tasting the skin, it was soggy. Let that be a lesson, I guess.

(But I didn't rinse, and the skin I sampled wasn't salty, so that answers that question.)

When we ate it it tasted like salt was the predominant flavor, but after brining another chicken (without skin -- an experiment I'm not likely to repeat) with only salt and sugar, my +1 remarked maybe we just didn't realize how much of the flavor from the first chicken was due to the brine spices. I didn't put vanilla or honey in the brine, but it did include salt, sugar, star anise, allspice berries, tarragon, peppercorns, coriander, and fresh rosemary. And it sure made the house smell nice while it roasted.

Oh, and I don't have a metal roasting rack, but I did have some leftover shoots and fronds from a bulb of anise, so I laid those down in the pan and placed the chicken on top. Highly recommended, it seemed to help the fat and moisture drain down while the meat cooked.

Pix to come.

Edited by jm chen
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The chicken I had at Palena tonight had three notes: star anise, salt and clove. I know it had clove because I bit into one that had gotten stuck in a bend in the wing. Whooo-eeee - clove can be pretty strong when you bite into a whole one. I didn't catch so much as a whiff of cardamom - a spice I can usually detect in minute amounts.

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I'm going again tonight and may have the chicken again. I'm curious to see if it tastes different than last time-- perhaps the Chef changes the brine every now and then. I could swear I tasted cardamom last time.

I am pretty sure I was told that the brine does change from time to time. I think they key is brine (if you like) with a good selection of spice, dry overnight, and roast on high heat for a crispy skin.

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If the brine changes, then trying to reproduce the Palena roast chicken would be a fruitless exercise, would it not?

Reproducing it exactly? Yes. But if it helps to roast a better bird does it really matter? I don't think it is the spice that everyone is going ga-ga over its overall flavor, crispy skin, and moist meat.

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I made a chicken very similar to Al Dente's original recipe, without the fresh herbs. But I added about a quarter cup of loose leaf Earl Grey tea, and about 10 Juniper Berries. I brined it for about 20 hours, and then let it air dry for another 24. I roasted it at 425 for 40 minutes and then another couple minutes under the broiler to further crisp the skin.

While it was roasting it almost smelled like bread baking. The meat was juicy, and very flavorful. The tea added a very Asian flavor to the chicken. Next time I am thinking of using Lapsong Susong tea instead, I am hoping that this will provide a nice smoky component to the chicken.

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Last time I was there, I heard the waiter mention that they pan roast it before they put it in the oven.  I think that that makes sense.  I'm going to try it that way next time.

Funny you mention this article. I tried the Cook's Illustrated pan roasting method just last night on some leg quarters and breasts. While I didn't use a Palena-inspired brine or anything, the crispiness and texture seemed very nearly Ruta-esque. The pan sauce recipes in that article work great, btw. And the oven fry recipe ain't bad either.

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Funny you mention this article. I tried the Cook's Illustrated pan roasting method just last night on some leg quarters and breasts. While I didn't use a Palena-inspired brine or anything, the crispiness and texture seemed very nearly Ruta-esque. The pan sauce recipes in that article work great, btw. And the oven fry recipe ain't bad either.

This is my default weeknight roast chicken method. Excellent for eating at the time and wonderful in salads and sandwiches for lunch. I strongly prefer white meat for roasting and tend to either just get parts or save the thighs and legs for braising.

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Funny you mention this article. I tried the Cook's Illustrated pan roasting method just last night on some leg quarters and breasts. While I didn't use a Palena-inspired brine or anything, the crispiness and texture seemed very nearly Ruta-esque. The pan sauce recipes in that article work great, btw. And the oven fry recipe ain't bad either.

What kind of oil did you use and how much did that contribute to the flavor of the skin?

I think I'm ready to give this another try

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New information, at least to me: I'm told that the pan-roasting step is performed on the cut side of the chicken half, not the skin side. So the crispy skin is from the high heat roasting, and the pan-roasting step is intended to sear/seal for juiciness.

Interest in recreating Palena chicken in the chen household has skyrocketed given a recent taste of the original. We were also told vanilla generally shows up in the brine in fall or winter--primary flavors this time around were star anise, clove, and tarragon. And now that I have a mean-looking set of poultry shears, I'm ready to try halving the bird, and getting yet closer to Palena-style.

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