Jump to content

Dining in Merrifield


Recommended Posts

On 10/8/2012 at 0:35 PM, RJ Cooper said:

Price point is not going to be Inox or Micheal. But it's also not going to be Matchbox or Cava.

Well, right now your competition is Four Sisters and Sea Pearl, both of which leave me shaking my head in amazement. I suppose Empire Oyster House and other newcomers will change that situation rather quickly; fairly sure you won't need to worry about Cyclone Anaya's.

---

The following posts were split into separate threads:

Four Sisters (Escoffier)

Uncle Liu's Hot Pot (lperry)

Raouche Cafe (ScotteeM)

Great Wall (goodeats)

Mario's Pizza House (hoosiereph)

Red Apron (MsDiPesto)

Open Road (Destruya)

Dining in Mosaic District and Halstead Market (Ericandblueboy)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dining in Merrifield...? Interesting topic to get into, like....

Is Sea Pearl still as disappointing as it has been in the past? Is Sabrina's Grill still dishing some of the better rotisserie chicken in our area? Is righteous kabob still to be found at Raouche Cafe? Is Uncle Liu's Hot Pot still worth a detour despite all the construction all over Merrifield?

Merrifield isn't entirely barren, nor is it teeming with dining pleasures. But there sure is plenty to talk about here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I sort of disagree with you, Kibbee--I think there are little gems and think Merrifield is a great place to go for simple cuisine. Mostly Asian, with folks forgetting Pho Cyclo and Elephant Jumps as nice contenders, in addition to Four Sisters and Sea Pearl. It's not going to "wow" but it's steady, comfort food, and pretty satisfying, especially for the food-to-price ratio.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I sort of disagree with you, Kibbee--I think there are little gems and think Merrifield is a great place to go for simple cuisine. Mostly Asian, with folks forgetting Pho Cyclo and Elephant Jumps as nice contenders, in addition to Four Sisters and Sea Pearl. It's not going to "wow" but it's steady, comfort food, and pretty satisfying, especially for the food-to-price ratio.

I actually agree with you, but I wasn't making my point clearly enough....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Been eating in the Merrifield area for the past twenty years and it's gone thru a lot of changes.

At the moment, Elephant Jumps, Uncle Liu's, Xpress Cafe, and the food courts of the Korean supermarkets are in the regular rotation if we're in the area. A long time ago would frequent Old Dominion Deli on a regular base for their sandwiches.

Use to go to Four Sisters back when it was in Eden Center, but found over the years since the move, something has been rather lacking. My memories at Eden Center recall so many small dishes, plates and bowls, it was always an unexpected taste or interesting favorites. Now in Merrifield, while it's solid food, it's not as inspiring in some respect.

Strangely, Lotus Garden in Vienna kind of reminds of me of the old Four Sisters/Eden Center vibe. Also, with the late night hours, something always ends up tasting good. Only people it's getting harder to convince the wife to drive to out to HKP and not getting enough of my peppercorn addiction!

I think Merrifield has a lot of potential for non chain restaurants in a reasonable price range which is great.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There have already been a few mentions of the new Mosaic District, developed by Edens, here on donrockwell.com. Jason let us know he'd opened up an outpost of his fantastic Clarendon Artisan Confections there*. And, of course RJ Cooper shared that his new Gypsy Soul would be an anchor. Even kirite let us know that a new Angelika Film Center was there.

I wanted to start this topic to make a place for some discussion about the development holistically. With all the very understandable hand-wringing about Reston Town Center that has gone on here on DR.com for about 5 years, Mosaic deserves a lot of credit if only for its thoughtfulness, its empathy, and for its ambition.

I had to be out that way yesterday and had a business lunch at Four Sisters, the wonderful Vietnamese spot I've been going to for 12 or so years dating back to when they were at the Eden Center. They moved to Merrifield a few years ago before Mosaic was fully announced. One of the sisters also owns Sea Pearl just across Strawberry Lane; that opened just over four years ago. And Pastry xPo has to be one of the better pastry spots in that area of VA. Those are all spots that have been operating 4-6 years.

Here on DR.com, some of the above spots are titled as being in "Merrifield Town Center" while others just have their street address in the title (Strawberry Lane or Gallows Road mostly).

Four Sisters and xPo are really part of--or at least right next to--The Mosaic District, which sits immediately adjacent and west of the strip with Four Sisters and xPo. All easily walkable with plenty of parking all around. I didn't fully realize this myself until yesterday when I had some time after my lunch and headed into the huge new Target just across from Four Sisters to pick up a few things. Then, still with a bit of time, I ventured just a bit further and increasingly began to think "wow, this is really cool!, really interesting! very ambitious!"

Mosaic is still coming online. Of the new spots, Artisan, Sweet Green, Angelika and the beginnings of a new fresh fish market called MediterraFish are now open. Other spots like Gypsy Soul, Dolcezza and Red Apron will be opening this year.

Mosaic is a fascinating bet for NoVa. I think it'll do well. Here's my case for believing it'll succeed:

- While the developers are clearly going after the high disposable incomes in NoVa, there are plenty of more affordable but high-quality experiences here as well. See a movie at Angelika. Get a best-in-region gelato or coffee at Dolcezza. Pick up some interesting, quality but affordable goods at Target or at Mom's Organic.

- Mosaic is midway between DC and Reston Town Center (about 13 miles from each) and, cutting to the chase, Mosaic clearly learned from the RTC experience, seeing an opportunity we've all talked about here for years. It's everything RTC is not and doesn't take people, whatever their income, for granted as much imho.

- Lots of real thought and effort have gone into recruiting the right merchants. For example, Timothy Paul is one of the cooler and most interesting carpet and furniture shops on 14th St NW from long before 14th St became a trendy destination. They are open now in Mosaic. Expensive but gorgeous, creative, unique and high quality goods. The Mom's Organic Market here is unlike any other. Tim Carman shares that opinion and did a nice writeup in the Post this past October. One aspect of Mom's Mosaic Tim didn't mention: I was surprised to see Ayrshire Farm meats on the shelves. Ayrshire is a great, humane, smartly run farm and ranch in Upperville that also operates a wonderful butcher and gourmet store in Middleburg called the Home Farm Store. It's gotten a little attention here on the website but not recently. Angelika itself, of course, is the only real competitor to Landmark nationally emphasizing independent, foreign and less mass market movies since starting in Manhattan in the late 80s. Artisan Confections. Red Apron. Even Four Sisters and xPo. These are all unique, excellent and, yes, memorable places who care most about the quality of the products or experiences they're selling whether at higher or lower prices.

There will be many new Mosaic openings across this year. No doubt Gypsy Soul alone will bring many from the city out to Mosaic who'll love what RJ is doing but then be as wow'ed by all that surrounds it. But now is absolutely a great time to check it out before the huge crowds go when the weather warms.

There's no other development like this around the city. Not Bethesda. Certainly not RTC.

Long live and prosper, Mosaic District. Much overdue. Hugely welcome.

* Need to change the topic title for Artisan; still says just Clarendon

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We're already regulars at Mosaic... the recent trend at Angelika has disappointingly been towards bigger, mass-market movies, but that may be a function of the end-of-the-year releases by big studios.

A recent experience with MediterraFish yielded large, succulent, and delicious sea scallops and a creditable salmon. A great option for those occasions when the budget supports something better than the HMart across Gallows.

Another national merchant worth noting: the Neiman Marcus Last Call Studio. Like the one in Rockville, an interesting combo of outlet and boutique.

Tip for those coming from the south at rush hour: take the 495 Express Lanes to the Lee Highway (U.S. 29 exit) to put you very close to Mosaic. Way better than fighting with Gallows at a busy hour!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with a lot of what darkstar965 says above. We went there for the first time on Saturday night (movie at Angelika and some window shopping) and came away very impressed. While I am sure that there will be several hits and misses over the next couple years with stores and restaurants, I hope that they keep the momentum going. And, watching a movie at Angelika was great (good selection of snacks and drinks), but I have to say that I really hate having to pick your seat before walking into the theater. Yes, it may ensure that you have the seat that you want, but it also keeps you from moving around when a person that decides to not take a shower that day, or maybe for several days, decides to sit right next to you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...A recent experience with MediterraFish yielded large, succulent, and delicious sea scallops and a creditable salmon. A great option for those occasions when the budget supports something better than the HMart across Gallows...

Maybe someone else can start a MediterraFish thread in the Shopping Forum. When I went in yesterday, I was intrigued but not wow'ed. Saw those scallops; they did look excellent and very fresh. And, likewise on the credible salmon though I didn't ask the two key questions of whether farmed and whether previously frozen. There's no comparison between this market and a Blacksalt but it does have promise. Most of the other fish were of Turkish provenance, which I found interesting. Wondered if Ferhat (Fishnet) knows these guys since his outstanding College Park fish place is Turkey-inspired. The Turkish fish here at Mediterra looked fresh but, again, didn't ask and would guess less likely. Most of all, pretty clear from the limited selection that they're just getting started. Will be one to watch.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Am I the only one who thinks that Target, being on the 4th floor, is inconvenient? How can you design a Target for which there is no direct access, thus forcing you to use an elevator/escalator (as far as I know, neither via the garage which provides access on the 3rd level, nor the street which provides access on the 1st)? I might be picking a nit here, but I think it's a pain in the ass. Maybe cause i always have the kid/stroller in tow and am forced to wait for an elevator.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Any news on Phase 2 of Mosaic, or has it kind of fizzled?  I feel like Union Market, Mosaic still needs a few additions to make it more well rounded.  I like going there, but the shops aren't open very late and there isn't a good bar, really.  I think when Gypsy Soul opens that should help, but it still needs more sit downs though, it needs to be a bit more Bethesda Row/Old Town.  At least for me to go there more regularly.  I see this as being an alternative for suburbanites to have an urban experience without driving into DC and I think that includes, "going out" so to speak.  I don't really shop at MOM regularly.  I mainly go for Target and the restaurants.  Need to try out the movie theater.  If they don't keep developing, it will probably lose its draw for me pretty quickly.  I like some of the boutiques, but there aren't enough for me to go there over going to Old Town.  It just needs a bit more.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Any news on Phase 2 of Mosaic, or has it kind of fizzled?  I feel like Union Market, Mosaic still needs a few additions to make it more well rounded.  I like going there, but the shops aren't open very late and there isn't a good bar, really.  I think when Gypsy Soul opens that should help, but it still needs more sit downs though, it needs to be a bit more Bethesda Row/Old Town.  At least for me to go there more regularly.  I see this as being an alternative for suburbanites to have an urban experience without driving into DC and I think that includes, "going out" so to speak.  I don't really shop at MOM regularly.  I mainly go for Target and the restaurants.  Need to try out the movie theater.  If they don't keep developing, it will probably lose its draw for me pretty quickly.  I like some of the boutiques, but there aren't enough for me to go there over going to Old Town.  It just needs a bit more.  

What you see there now is just the beginning. I can attest to the fact that permitting through Fairfax County is a nightmare, and thus a lot of the restaurants have been behind in their build-outs due the permitting process. For my little 625 sq ft space it was a nightmare and many, many months to get a building permit (and I didn't even have a kitchen). I can't imagine what those large spaces are going through.. Be patient. The development plan for the entire Mosaic District is very impressive and the buildings that are there are only about 30% of the whole project, but just like Reston Town Center it is going to take some time to get going.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What you see there now is just the beginning. I can attest to the fact that permitting through Fairfax County is a nightmare, and thus a lot of the restaurants have been behind in their build-outs due the permitting process. For my little 625 sq ft space it was a nightmare and many, many months to get a building permit (and I didn't even have a kitchen). I can't imagine what those large spaces are going through.. Be patient. The development plan for the entire Mosaic District is very impressive and the buildings that are there are only about 30% of the whole project, but just like Reston Town Center it is going to take some time to get going.

Please don't let it become the Reston Town Center! Thankfully, with Four Sisters and Red Apron and Blackfinn and a few others, including the upcoming Gypsy Soul from RJ Cooper, it would appear that the larger chains are not likely to overtake Merrifield as they have done in Reston. And that's a very good thing for Merrifield.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What you see there now is just the beginning. I can attest to the fact that permitting through Fairfax County is a nightmare, and thus a lot of the restaurants have been behind in their build-outs due the permitting process. For my little 625 sq ft space it was a nightmare and many, many months to get a building permit (and I didn't even have a kitchen). I can't imagine what those large spaces are going through.. Be patient. The development plan for the entire Mosaic District is very impressive and the buildings that are there are only about 30% of the whole project, but just like Reston Town Center it is going to take some time to get going.

That's good.  Thanks for the info.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's a question that is Merrifield based, but not Mosaic (so feel free to move this, Don/mods).

Does anyone have any information on the Italian Market and Trio Grill and Open Road Grill that seems ready to open soon next to the garden center? I was driving by today after giving blood thinking I hadn't heard much. It seems to be part of the restaurant group that does the Circa restaurants...which I've also never been to.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's a question that is Merrifield based, but not Mosaic (so feel free to move this, Don/mods).

Does anyone have any information on the Italian Market and Trio Grill and Open Road Grill that seems ready to open soon next to the garden center? I was driving by today after giving blood thinking I hadn't heard much. It seems to be part of the restaurant group that does the Circa restaurants...which I've also never been to.

They've been planning this for a *long* time - perhaps even years. I know someone who has current information - I'll write and let you know when I hear something.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A sign out front has the Open Road Grill opening on September 3, and it is possible that Trio is already open.  I have driven past there a couple of times this week in the early evening, and there were a large number of vehicles in the parking lot--so either some big soft openings or already open.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Open Road has a soft opening tonight (Friday) and tomorrow. They officially open on the 3rd. I haven't seen anything about opening times for the Italian Market or Trio.

Will the Italian Market be to Italian markets like Red Apron Butchery is to yesteryear's butcheries? I'd love to have a stinky, food-odor Italian market near my house, but I have a feeling it'll be subs and prepared salads.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I live in Fairfax, not Merrifield, but using EZPass it take about 10-15 minutes to travel to and from Mosaic, and its by far the most promising destination near me. I shop at Moms every week, make excursions to Red Apron and olive oil store less often. Red Apron is a disappointment compared to McLean butcher, a real full service butcher with no doubt much smaller rents. I'm not young, lots of discretionary income, it's just hard to spend in Fairfax. One of the richest places in the country, but unless you want to eat ethnic, not many nice places to eat. But my fellow well heeled Fairfax geezers might just be cheap. No expense accounts, maybe. I am prepared to spend up, but I want value for money.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The loss of Gypsy Soul was a stomach punch to what was becoming the best little pocket of eating in the northern Virginia suburbs. Let's hope something interesting and not a chain finds that space and does it justice.

That's interesting - I see it as the opposite, and view Mosaic as having the potential to follow Rockville Town Center by a few years. Ovvio Osteria is on their third chef, then we lose Gypsy Soul - will Brine be able to retain John Critchley? I'm sorry to say that I place the burden of proof on the land barons, and they very rarely come through in the long term.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's interesting - I see it as the opposite, and view Mosaic as having the potential to follow Rockville Town Center by a few years. Ovvio Osteria is on their third chef, then we lose Gypsy Soul - will Brine be able to retain John Critchley? I'm sorry to say that I place the burden of proof on the land barons, and they very rarely come through in the long term.

And you hit on one of the glaring realities of the restaurant business that all too few of us appreciate. The landlord is the boss, and the money to be made is in the real estate business, not the restaurant business.

That's why mom-and-pops can't make it downtown. Instead, we have food trucks. If you want ethnic holes in the wall, you have to go to the suburbs, where they can afford to exist, but maybe only barely.

In Town Centers and other high-priced non-neighborhoods, the landlords rule, so we get national (or local) chains that can afford the lease arrangement, and we get closures of places we liked and now miss, like Gypsy Soul or Colvin Run Tavern.

Yes, it's the land barons, and they rule the restaurant industry.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The land barons rule?  Do you have any idea how much money it takes to build restaurant space in what is referred to as virgin space?  Core drilling!  Floor drains!  Rest rooms!  Kitchen equipment!  Whether the landlord or the tenant pays for it, the cost has to be recouped over the base term of the lease, normally ten years. Years ago, I spent nine months of my life helping a few friends open a fine dining restaurant.  They kept wanting to spend more money, and I kept trying to stop them.  They did what they wanted to do, and now they are out of business.  I am not a big fan of their landlord, but he did what he said he would do.  A lease is a mutually agreed contract.  If the chefs do not like the terms, don't sign it.  In this day of chef shortages, go work at the Four Seasons.  Jose Andres seems to do fine, as does Marcels.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 I'm sorry to say that I place the burden of proof on the land barons, and they very rarely come through in the long term.

I beg to differ.

In Town Centers and other high-priced non-neighborhoods, the landlords rule, so we get national (or local) chains that can afford the lease arrangement, and we get closures of places we liked and now miss, like Gypsy Soul or Colvin Run Tavern.

Yes, it's the land barons, and they rule the restaurant industry.

and I beg to differ again.

Rents are very high.  I know.  I used to know rents down cold.  I leased space.  I represented tenants and landlords.  I leased space to restaurants and retail for a period of some years.  I was in the market on a daily basis.     And the rents are crazy and dramatically higher now then they were when I was doing it.  Crazy high.  But not everywhere.

A couple of years ago in this forum Mark Bucher gave an operator some advice concerning markets and rents and associated qualities of the locations that might help.  (I haven't found the source).  But the advice was spot on.  He described neighborhoods and markets, parking access, basic rents.  It was priceless.  Very spot on.  Mark must have been working the markets all the time looking for locations.  It was terrific spot on advice.  It was also the advice of an operator, so it went deeper than that of pure real estate.

Most of the time the operators don't opine in these type threads.  They are the one's who know better than anyone, but their experience is often individual to their circumstances.   I think downtown and then spreading into the high volume suburban markets retail rents really soared post 2000.   It was after I stopped working the markets.  So I'm not up to date.  But I do know they skyrocketed.     Now just as an aside in the earlier '80's I know I rented a small space to a food provider that at the time was the highest per square foot rate in the region.   It was a chain.   For the first 4-5 years (while we were in touch) the space (one of hundreds of locations) was one of their top 5 nationwide for per square foot profitability.  And they were in all sorts of locations with rents way way way below what was being paid in DC.  So it is more than just high rents.

Quite some time ago restaurateurs discovered ways to deal with high rents.  Its been in existence for well over a decade.  So it isn't just rents.

Restaurants have to figure out the "magic" of drawing big crowds.  its ultimately volume that overcomes high rents.   Therein is the trick.  ....and it is a trick or magic, or detail or hard work, or great great food and customer service or combinations of all the above.

Two examples of "making it" stick out in my mind.

First time I visited Pizzeria Orso I was struck by what an absolutely horrendous location.  A butt ugly street.  No traffic.  No walk around traffic.  Off main road(s). No high volume high destination neighbors as in a shopping center.  One of the most hidden out of the mainstream locations one can find.  Now on seeing that location my first impression (sort of often thinking from the real estate side) is that the landlord should have paid Orso to go into that location.  Not given them free rent or tons of cash concessions.  They should pay the restaurant, not the other way around.  That was a severe impression.

Orso has done great, at least from the outside perspective.  Its hugely busy.  It meets the market.  It not only offers great pizza, but it offers other excellent meals, attractive drink alternatives.....and it is hugely kid friendly.   REALLY KID FRIENDLY.   So...while the street location is horrible...it is so absolutely accessible to that huge population that is reasonably nearby with kids.   It reaches out to the market, that is actually very accessible and nearby...though hardly anyone would find it, or drive by it, or never walk by it at first glance.

A second alternative:  Unnamed large restaurant downtown.   Doesn't get mentioned here very often...in fact doesn't get good mention here when it is mentioned.  It is rather large, pays a hefty hefty rent, and does HUGE VOLUME.   I've been aware of that for some time through different ways and sources.

Most recently on an anecdotal basis a server from that restaurant was at our bar school.  We spoke a bit over time.  She has been there for over 5 years.  The bartenders have NOT turned over in that period of time.  That is very rare.  So freaking rare.  There are examples all around the region in MD, VA, and DC...but it only happens when the bartenders are making bank....very big incomes...and consistently.  That means the place is always busy.  Over a couple of days she referenced in different discussions how much the lead longest term bartender is probably earning.  She referenced it in different ways as I kept bringing her back there.  Lets just say that he earns something akin to members of congress.

Hey not as good as high volume, well established/  attorneys in town not even close...but this bartender and his colleagues are pouring beer, wine and drinks.  (and that makes it a long physical day).   Their tip volume and her tip volume  (danged high for a server)....are a  reflection of the volume of business the restaurant does.

Now restaurants fail in Buffalo, NY, Erie, Pa, and downtown Milwaukee, Wisconsin.   I can't imagine the rents have gone up in any of those areas in decades.  D.E.C.A.D.E.S.   Maybe a wee bit.  Not a lot.  As different in real estate markets from DC as night and day.

There are a lot of reasons why restaurants and other businesses fail in high rent areas.  Its not just the rent.

Now I will say, these mini made suburban downtowns such as Mosaic and Rockville Center might well be a mirage to potential tenants, .   The core buildout in residential and commercial properties nearby are not that great that they will sustain several restaurants in their retail centers.  They may look good.  But they aren't large enough on their own.  These developments will be expensive.  They are probably expensive to build.

I think I'd skip them.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Restaurants trying to figure out the "magic" of drawing big crowds might find themselves offering fried chicken skins at $9 per serving for a product whose food cost is possibly (I am not in the business) 25 cents, when faced with the kind of rents that the so-called "land barons" are commanding.  That this offering was unique (in my world) at the time made it palatable to pay that kind of money on occasion.  In the long term, I am guessing that it is difficult to draw the necessary consistent big crowds with that as a starting point appetizer, in an area like Mosaic.

On the other hand, Matchbox has seemed to find the "magic" that works in several diverse areas, including Mosaic.  Although some of their offerings are not bad, that is the level of food at that particular price point that works in Merrifield.  Not too unlike the chains at Reston Town Center, for example.

It just does not seem like the demographics of the frequent diner in the Mosaic area (and Northern Virginia in genera)  fits with what the "land barons" at Mosaic are apparently charging for rent, at least in terms of really innovative cooking.

I agree with you, though, about Pizzeria Orso apparently doing well in a really obscure setting.  Maybe more  of the people looking to open new places can take a page out of the Orso book, and open up shop away from the glitter.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

In Town Centers and other high-priced non-neighborhoods, the landlords rule, so we get national (or local) chains that can afford the lease arrangement

FWIW, shortly after places in Mosaic District opened for business, I was chatting with one of the store owners with whom I'm acquainted (not Andelman), who told me that the developers had made a big effort to fill the stores with small, local businesses rather than chains.  For many of the stores, Mosaic is only the second or third location.  This one particular owner was grateful for the opportunity to expand his business.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

it's the land barons, and they rule the restaurant industry.

Some more about rents

I had a chance to speak with an old real estate colleague.  He still does some restaurant deals and he made a few over the last xxxx months or longer (not sure of time frame).  Different types of restaurants.  All 3 inside the beltway.  Enormous range in rents---over $50/foot between the high rent and the low rent/foot.     Of course a "fair rent" in some submarkets can vary by a tremendous amount. Theoretically for instance in the downtownish areas a rent at the most walked around central points should be dramatically higher than one at a location at the edge of that area.  The same with suburban areas and/or outlying areas outside of the core downtowns.

So many different things to consider.  As he was describing them he referenced the one with the highest per sqr foot range.  He and the operators think it will "kill".

Who knows????   So many different variables.   Making it or not making is dependent on so many varying factors.   I wouldn't put the onus on just the landlords, nor would I put the onus on just a great chef.   Its simply that there are an enormous variety of factors to consider and that play out.

Edit added a few hours later.  I was just introduced to a person doing retail leasing in the city and suburbs for a major player.   BAM.   He mentioned a restaurant deal downtown that sounded a LOT lower than the one's I heard about earlier in the day.  He also referenced some leases in a submarket that based on comments here..were surprising for the high rents.  Heck they surprised me.

It turns out he's been leasing space at a place that was the one I cut my teeth on over 30 years ago.  Jeez.  Lot of retail turnover there.  Over many decades.  And we discussed a property in the core downtown with a long running restaurant.  Per the guy who sees the "numbers".  Its not doing what it once was.  A number of "reasons" were discussed...but heck none of us are inside and running the business.  So what do we know.

But based on this discussion, my comment to restaurateurs is LOOK a LOT.   There are a lot of different "deals" out there...and in many cases the rents are really all over the place!!!!!   Look a lot.  Survey a lot.  Get a lot of choices.  Negotiate a lot.   Just on the rent side those were the things that worked long ago.  It seems the same principles and practices still hold.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

FWIW, shortly after places in Mosaic District opened for business, I was chatting with one of the store owners with whom I'm acquainted (not Andelman), who told me that the developers had made a big effort to fill the stores with small, local businesses rather than chains.  For many of the stores, Mosaic is only the second or third location.  This one particular owner was grateful for the opportunity to expand his business.

That sounds like something I might have said. :) Yes, Edens did initially pursue small, local businesses for Mosaic. I think that trend is changing, as more nationals have opened and I assume will continue to open.  I will readily admit, it has been a struggle out there. No fault of the developer (yes, my rent is high, but nobody put a gun to my head and made me sign a lease, it was a calculated risk). I could write ad nauseam about my Mosaic experience, both the good and the bad, but I don't really see the point in doing it in an online forum. I'd be happy to share in person if anyone is interested. :)

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Walking by on an early in the week night, a lot of the restaurants are operating at 25% capacity. Of course on the weekends, these same places are slammed. I really wonder how places deal with the huge fluctuations. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Walking by on an early in the week night, a lot of the restaurants are operating at 25% capacity. Of course on the weekends, these same places are slammed. I really wonder how places deal with the huge fluctuations. 

Lion:   If you consider some of the retail "mapping" facets that have been part of the digital mapping discussion here and specifically search in google for a restaurant such as Cava in Merrifield on either a desktop or a mobile google is going to give you an estimate for how busy that restaurant is on any particular day and at what hours.   Look at the "knowledge box"  (I'd call it the google steal info box-- ;)  )   and google is going to give you estimates of how busy the restaurant is on any particular day and time.   You could search in every restaurant in Mosaic to get a "sense" of business.

Now speak to most restaurateurs here and around the country and probably a majority will tell you they'll be busier on Fridays and Saturdays   (okay possibly not Mickey D's or Wendy's--but others with a generally considered higher value menu-- ;)  ).   Weekends are when restaurants are busiest, in general.   Now are they busy ENOUGH during the week???   Well you'll have to speak to each restaurateur for those answers.

Meanwhile the google graphs most probably come from androids with their "location data" setting on.  (I think the default setting is that location data is turned on--is it not?)   So big google is aggregating the data of millions of android owners traveling around the country and identifying data that is attached to restaurant locations and then aggregating that data to create those graphs.

Pretty big brotherish, is it not???   Some may find it helpful or interesting, but it spooks me out.    Anyway that is what the graphs represent and since google is taking the location data and connecting it to its POI (point of interest) data (POI roughly equals businesses and other "things").   It is creating these graphs that speak to "busyness".

If android owners turn off the location data  (I did) and/or the people traveling to these restaurants are primarily Apple owners....then the data is going to be off.  (Likewise smaller restaurants don't seem to show this data)  Of course we as readers won't know that...and frankly the google algo's creating these graphs won't know it either.

So...you can walk around Mosaic on a weekday and/or rely on google's production of data with its digital mapping and android (spying apps)  and possibly come up with the same assumption.     ;)

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Great post! One thought is that the boxes suck in residents with low interest rates on high priced townhouses and rents that are above their real means=HOUSE POOR

My concern, exactly! As the owner of a business in the general area, I've been concerned about this issue since Mosaic opened.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Great post! One thought is that the boxes suck in residents with low interest rates on high priced townhouses and rents that are above their real means=HOUSE POOR

Property values seem to have retained their values for condo owners so far. Just a case of what will happen in ten years when automation takes over white collar jobs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Property values seem to have retained their values for condo owners so far. Just a case of what will happen in ten years when automation takes over white collar jobs.

The issues isn't whether the condo retains value, it's that the people buying are possibly using more of their income than they should be to be able to afford meals out and occasional extravagances, which seem to be what most stores in Mosaic are selling.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is maybe (actually, is) swerving off top topic, but who are we to judge whether people are sinking "too much" of their income into their living quarters and not enough into going out for meals, i.e.,  "more of their income than they should be to be able to afford meals out and occasional extravagances".  Possibly these people don't care about eating out or having whatever "occasional extravagances" that you might be conjuring.  The stores in Mosaic should not be "betting on the come", they should be figuring out the real demographic.

I actually hope that the one-off restaurants (no love for Ted's, little love for Matchbox) are able to make it, even though I have been and will likely be a relatively infrequent customer.  I used to enjoy going to Gypsy Soul and it has been too long since I have been to B Side!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 The stores in Mosaic should not be "betting on the come", they should be figuring out the real demographic.

This is really what it comes down to. The Mosaic demographic certainly has disposable income, I just think they choose to spend it in different ways. I don't think it has anything to do with real estate prices or being 'house poor'. I grew up in Fairfax County (and own a store at Mosaic), so I have a pretty good idea of the type of shopper that we are seeing over there. Places like Matchbox, Ted's, maybe True Foods Kitchen are the right fit. I mean, look at Sweetwater Tavern (yes, technically not Mosaic, but close enough). Packed every night.

Someone should do a study on this. It is quite amazing the difference in buying habits between Fairfax County and Arlington. On paper, the demographics are pretty similar.

Of course, I am generalizing and not saying ALL customers in Fairfax County and ALL customers in Arlington, etc. etc... Just an observation. :)

PS: please feel free to move this post into another thread, as it really has nothing to do with Brine (well, maybe a little..)

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The issues isn't whether the condo retains value, it's that the people buying are possibly using more of their income than they should be to be able to afford meals out and occasional extravagances, which seem to be what most stores in Mosaic are selling.

I think that's not an issue indicative of the Mosaic model but rather a factor of living in any suburb near a major metropolitan city in the US. The Mosaic model is the culmination of decades of retail and housing developers work to create a 'city block' out of nothing.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fern St Bistro! Blast from the past. I grew up near Burke Lake Park/Fairfax Station. My buddy used to work as a server at Fern St. (he now owns a restaurant and wine shop in PW County). Yeah, it's a shame that area can't support more restaurants like that.

Four Sisters was super popular before they moved, so they had that going for them. Also, like you said, ethnic food thrives in FFX County.

I think the problem at Mosaic (and I agree on the lack of a cohesive community there) is that the lunch time customers are looking for quick, inexpensive bite to eat. The Cava Grill is always packed at lunch. Sweetgreen and Taylor seem to pretty much rely on weekday lunch business. I seriously doubt the majority of the lunch crowd is looking for a sit-down meal with drinks, 3 courses, etc... It's the same here in Clarendon. Lunch business seems to be strictly the less expensive-type joints.  Not enough expense account/offices for the 3 martini lunch. :)

+1 for the Fern St mention! IIRC, that place was good.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I still believe that part of the issue with Mosaic is where it is located. Growing up in Arlington County we always seemed to have an 'identity' of location. Mosaic to me doesn't seem to have a sense of community whereas places like Clarendon, Rosslyn and even Fairfax City have a sense of community. People grew up there, people came back or moved close by and still haunt their old neighborhoods.

That's a bit unfair since Mosaic is a brand-new development, just like Reston was 45 years ago. Give it time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...