155 replies to this topic

[Heather]

We are going to be remodeling our kitchen within the next year or so and after doing two previous kitchens, I find that the only essential items are a good stove and a second oven. Secondary to the stove is a freezer big enough to hold a sheet pan, counter space, and an icemaker. All the rest, cabinets, countertops, etc. is window dressing.

So I'd like to hear from dr.com members...Have you ever redone you kitchen and what feature was most important to you? What did you do that in retrospect was a waste of money?


We're considering one of the Aga duel fuel ranges. The six-four is the model I'm looking at. (In purple.) Has anyone owned one or used one? This is not the radiant heat kind - it's too hot here.

[thistle]

That Aga is gorgeous-aubergine or heather?

I didn't remodel our kitchen, the previous owners did, I definitely would have done some things differently. First off, lighting-if possible, go for good natural light, as well as areas of task lighting. I also hate our floor, Italian ceramic tile that is just 'natural' & distressed enough to catch every bit of grime-we're going to rip it out (I hate to do it, it's just a couple of years old) & replace with oak floors. I realize there's a risk of water damage, but I can't live with the tile. I do like the granite counters, although the color wouldn't be my first choice. They installed a new fridge & left the old one in the garage, a few steps away-that has been great!-extra freezer space, chilling drinks for crowds. A bigger pantry would be nice, but at least I have one. You can find alot of useful tips on the kitchen forum of That Home Site-also, design it for you, not necessarily resale; if you're going to go through the stress of remodeling, it should be worth it...

[Heather]

I agree about tile. Our new house has ceramic tile and we'll be ripping it up and putting down something easier to stand on. And won't break everything dropped on it. We had an oak floor in our last house and it was fine.

The kitchen is huge, but the space is not used well. During our home inspection we found out that the previous owners had taken out a pantry. We might put it back in.

[porcupine]

Under cabinet lighting.

One gigantic unbroken workspace (I have a 4'x6' granite island - no sink, no range, no clutter, just four electrical outlets on the side and cabinets underneath- unbelievably useful to have that much contiguous space).

The most powerful fume hood... uh, range hood, you can get, directly vented to the outside (none of this namby-pamby pop-up nonsense).

A refrigerator that's wide (not a side-by-side freezer-refrigerator).

I love being able to park pans hot from the stove or oven on my granite counters.

Stove, ovens, and sink on the same stretch of counter.

I've done one kitchen from scratch and remodeled two others. I could show you two of these any time you want, if you just want ideas and/or an excuse to get together for lunch.

Waste of money: the grill feature on the Viking range. Useless and horrendous to clean. Would much rather have the two extra burners.

[JPW]

I think Elizabeth has it. I would kill for more counter space to work on. I would also love to have a second oven that isn't my Weber on the back deck.

[zoramargolis]

Lucky you! I've never had a "dream kitchen" even though for many years Jonathan designed and built custom kitchens for other (rich) people in Los Angeles--the shoemaker's children go barefoot syndrome at work. The one kitchen that he built for us ($2K total for materials and appliances, so no granite counters or Aga cooker) that came close was in a loft we renovated. One of my favorite features echoes one of Elizabeth's-- a big stretch of counter. Mine was 4' wide by about 10' long extending into the space where a wall might have been. We had drawers and cabinets underneath on the kitchen side and drawers underneath part of the "living room" side. The rest of that side of the counter had space for 4 stools, so it functioned as a breakfast bar, and a place where friends could hang out, drink and nibble and chat while I cooked. People always gather in the kitchen anyway--with a designated place to sit, they are a part of the action without getting underfoot. And with that much counter space, I was able to have the Kitchenaid mixer, Cuisinart, blender and bread machine out and convenient to use while still having room to lay out plates and platters or do major baking projects.

The other thing that I loved that I no longer have was that every shelf in every cabinet was a sliding basket, and there were turntables in the corners. Lack of counter, pantry and easily accessible cabinet space is my biggest gripe about my current kitchen.

[Heather]

If I get the stove it will be the most expensive thing in the kitchen by far. We'll probably get relatively inexpensive cabinets, and granite from a discount place we know in Springfield.

[MsDiPesto]

Some things we appreciate after designing our kitchen:

Plenty of electrical outlets (I guess this is a given under current codes).

Some place out of the way for the microwave so it doesn't take up valuable counter space.

Lots of task lighting, we found when building our dream kitchen that xenon is not quite as hot as halogen for under cabinet use.

Specific cabinetry where you want it (i.e., the pots and pans in a large drawer near the range, etc.)

Trash & recycling hidden in a cabinet so it doesn't take up a footprint on the floor.

[Pat]

We spent most of 2005 renovating our kitchen. One feature we got that, at the time I figured was going to end up being a waste of money but has been a really useful thing to have, is heat lamps and warming racks. That affected the range hood we had to get, so we ended up with a Wolf range and a Viking hood. We got a dual fuel range, which I really like. And it has convection, which has proved quite helpful when I run out of time.

Another thing I love that's very simple is the ice (including crushed ice!) and water on the outside door of the refrigerator. We got a Kitchen Aid superba, which was largest interior side-by-side we could find for the space we had. I loved the huge ancient harvest gold Kenmore we had (they'll never made standard refrigerators like that again, I fear), but it was on its last legs. To compensate for less refrigerator/freezer space, we have a basic one in the basement, which we had to have anyway so we had refrigerator space during the renovation.

We have lots of counter space and cabinets up to the ceiling for cold storage of appliances we use once a year. The microwave is in an open cabinet space. We spent money getting cabinets that are an architectural component rather than just for storage. I wavered on that, but I love them. The cabinets and floor are both maple. We also have a fairly large pantry. Since I'm very short, even with cabinets at a reasonable height, I frequently have trouble reaching things in cabinets. The pantry puts things I need right where I can get them. We got an appliance garage built in but it's not really deep enough or tall enough for what I need to put in there. That was one of the misfires.

Alos, there's under cabinet lighting, which is great, but it makes the bottom shelves of the lower cabinets hot enough to melt chocolate . We opened things up more (we also expanded onto a small porch) and now have a lot more natural light. We have a northern exposure, and it can be pretty dark.

There are lots of electrical outlets now and a hookup for a laptop. It's wonderful to be able to pull up recipes from the computer while I'm cooking. There are also bookshelves for immediate cookbook consultation. The corner of the kitchen counter has become my de facto home office. We spent a lot of money on this room and it's now the nicest, classiest-looking room in the house, so what better place to work?

We got a double sink, one bigger and one smaller. The smaller one has the garbage disposal in it. The lower cabinet next to the sink has a built in insert for trash and recycling, which is really handy and keeps stuff out of the way.

Friends of ours in Baltimore just redid their kitchen. They added an island, which is very useful and I would love to have, but we have a Capitol Hill townhouse galley kitchen. They have a couple of other things that are pretty cool, including a built in grooved metal drainboard that drains down into the sink, and stacked dishwashers, so there are two deep ones that sit on top of each other. (I forget the company. It's in New Zealand.) They positioned them so they are opposite the cabinets/drawers in which plates, cutlery, etc., are stored. They don't even have to move in order to put the clean dishes away from the dishwasher. They also got a pot filler attachment for over the stove, so you can pour the water into the pot right there on the stove. It's a heavy piece of hardware, and they're having trouble with it leaking. That may be one of their misfires, but the concept is pretty cool, though.

One other thing I just thought of is that we got a fairly dark granite countertop because we thought it was really beautiful and looked good with the cabinets. I agonized over whether it would darken the room too much. Visiting our friends who got a very beautiful but light color granite countertop and immediately stained it with oil, I realized that dark was a smart move. We try to be careful and keep it cleaned up, but I'm sure there are stains on it that just aren't very visible because of the color.

[TSE]

They have a couple of other things that are pretty cool, including a built in grooved metal drainboard that drains down into the sink, and stacked dishwashers, so there are two deep ones that sit on top of each other. (I forget the company. It's in New Zealand.)

Fisher & Paykel, most likely.

[Pat]

Fisher & Paykel, most likely.

That sounds right.

[Heather]

Other companies are starting to make dishwashers like that. We looked at a Kenmore elite yesterday.

[thistle]

Some more thoughts on kitchens (it's always easier to criticize, rather then do it yourself, although the PO, who is a realtor, did a pretty good job).

Pluses- Kitchenaid Superba appliances (no problems yet), tile back splash ( what I hate on the floor I like on the wall), utilitarian yet mostly functional cabinets, a small (36" x 48") granite topped (Kashmir gold, which looks like cinnamon raisin-bread toast & Kashmir also happens to be the name of our beloved yellow dog) island, w/ no insets (but unfortunately, no outlets, either)

Minuses-soffits over the cabinets instead of ceiling height, it's a small kitchen, but it's still the nicest kitchen I've cooked in so far, I have to say that some of the basic Army quarters, w/ 50-yr. old formica countertops & vintage linoleum floors, which have seen dozens of occupants, have held up amazingly well...

[Hannah]

I know you said you had a hookup for the granite already, but I absolutely love our Silestone counters(manufactured quartz composite). We have both counters and backsplash, and it's completely indestructible, doesn't stain or have to be refinished, you can put hot pans down on it with no problem, and it's (or was at the time we got ours) about $10/sq. ft cheaper than granite. I think Home Depot and Expo Design both carry it now (used to just be Expo). There's also the Dupont version, Zodiaq, but I remember it being significantly more expensive.

If I had our renovation to do over, I'd probably put hardwood on the floor rather than tile (our subfloor isn't rigid enough, and the grout keeps coming out) and put in a real range hood.

[MsDiPesto]

Another man-made quartz composite counter material is Legacy, which we discovered (and ended up using) when we found that Silestone wasn't making the color we wanted for our kitchen anymore (black with silver specks). It's a bit thicker than Silestone.

[squidsdc]

Caught the H&G channel piece on the 2006 KBIS show, and they showcased a Silestone with some kind of anti-microbic mixed in? Forgive the memory, or lack thereof, but suffice it to say that the counter cleans up after itself! (so to speak )

Hardwood floors-a definite. Keeping clean is not really a problem, but it does show the kitty hair!

2 ovens

slide out drawers--we had these put into our last kitchen, and did them in our current one as well. However, for some reason that I cannot recall right now, we did not put them in ALL the bottom cabinets this time. This I would definitely do differently in the future!

Gotta say, I love the Bluestar stove. We had a Viking previously, and I 2nd the comment about the grill--it is better to have the extra burners. We actually went from a 36" Viking to the 30" Bluestar, and don't miss the extra space. Now if we could afford the space for the 36" we definitely would have gotten the extra burners! We like our Vent-a Hood so far as well. We needed a good vent with the 22K burners on the stovetop!

[treznor]

Caught the H&G channel piece on the 2006 KBIS show, and they showcased a Silestone with some kind of anti-microbic mixed in? Forgive the memory, or lack thereof, but suffice it to say that the counter cleans up after itself! (so to speak )

I'd be very leary if that's what's being advertised. A smooth non-porous surface should have better microbial resistance to start with as there are less nooks and crannies for the microbes to rest and fester in. However, anything that actively fights microbes would have to have some sort of antimicrobial agent that leeches out of the surface to counteract the microbes sitting there. This could lead to mcroscopic pitting which could end up trapping more microbes than the smooth surface to start with. If the surface is porous, the anti-microbial would probably be laced throughout the surface and would work more than likely by biding to the microbe and trapping it inside the surface, also something that doesn't sound wonderful to me.

All of this is based on generic engineering knowledge, I know nothing about the material you were referencing. Maybe they found a way to get rid of all the downsides and still keep the upside.

[squidsdc]

I'd be very leary if that's what's being advertised. A smooth non-porous surface should have better microbial resistance to start with as there are less nooks and crannies for the microbes to rest and fester in. However, anything that actively fights microbes would have to have some sort of antimicrobial agent that leeches out of the surface to counteract the microbes sitting there. This could lead to mcroscopic pitting which could end up trapping more microbes than the smooth surface to start with. If the surface is porous, the anti-microbial would probably be laced throughout the surface and would work more than likely by biding to the microbe and trapping it inside the surface, also something that doesn't sound wonderful to me.

All of this is based on generic engineering knowledge, I know nothing about the material you were referencing. Maybe they found a way to get rid of all the downsides and still keep the upside.

click here for the link from the HGTV website

"Silestone's quartz countertops are beautiful and durable, but it also has something that no other countertop does—Microban protection. The protection fights germs 24/7, so even while you're sleeping your countertop is getting clean. The protection is built into the product and will last throughout its lifetime. There are seven colors from the new River series shown here, inspired by water flowing over river rock"

the Silestone website FAQ addresses some questions on the bottom half of the page. click here

Is this purely marketing then, or does it really have the downsides that you mentioned?

[treznor]

Again, take anything I say about it with a grain of salt in that I know little about kitchen countertops and nothing about that specific product. Looking at the pictures it looks like it's a non-smooth synthetic anyway, so microscopic pitting wouldn't change the properties of the countertop too much. Most granite (which is just a combination of quartz and feldspar basically) countertops are polished smooth which would give "gunk" less of a place to build up.

Granite naturally has a very low absorption rate which is why it is difficult to stain. Quartz is easier to stain, though the quartz used in countertops is only marginally easier to stain. This is mainly because "quartz" used for building material is really mineral quartz with a binder and it's the binder you have to worry about staining. Since Silestone is "synthetic" quartz, meaning in it's case that it's actually made with real quartz but with a different binder than you'd see naturally occuring, manufacturers can make certain that stainability in Silestone approaches natural or synthetic granite.

All this means is that it looks like Silestone is a quality countertop material. If you like it, go with it. I wouldn't let the MicroBan sway you too much though. From the descriptions I've found it certainly doesn't look like it would degrade the surface over time, but I don't see how it could do too much to fight microbes either though. As they point out on their website, since Silestone is non-porous (as are most/all synthetic or natural granite or quartz countertops) it inherently helps fight off microbes as they don't have a place to collect in the surface itself.

From the MicroBan website (www.microban.com), it appears that they claim it works by puncturing the cell wall of the microbe as it comes in contact with the surface. That seems kind of iffy to me as that's just not as easy to do as it is to say. Basically it's kind of like a stone fence that is always there protecting a piece of property, the act of protection doesn't wear away the fence (okay in real life it does because of erosion, but let's skip that in order to complete the analogy). It seems to be used in a number of applications, though most of the information I found about the product was based on information from the maker, with a couple independant studies thrown in that back up it's claims.

It looks like MicroBan -may- do some good at fighting microbes, and at the worst will do no harm to the countertop. I think it comes down to if you like the surface, get it. But don't factor the MicroBan protection into the equation too heavily. It's more than likely just being used as a differentiator for Silestone to set themselves apart from the competition (since they are the only countertop to use it).

ETA: Since it's a kitchen application any microbes are potential problems. So you're going to have to clean it just as often anyway to make sure there are no microbes floating around... I guess it's just a way to hope that the levels of microbes between cleanings stay a bit lower.

[Free Wilma]

We've had Silestone countertops for years and, honestly, they look as good as the day we got them. the downside is they have a slightly more manufactured look than the natural graining of granite. But they're EASY and indestructable.

[ol_ironstomach]

Despite the manufacturer's assurances that Microban (™ for embedded triclosan) protection is valid for the "useful lifetime of the product", it needs to be absorbed into the microorganism to be effective, and will eventually wear out. Maybe the protection is adequate for children's toys and potscrubbers, but how long is the useful lifetime of a countertop?

Their claim that it cannot be washed off or worn through simply reflects the fact that it is not an applied surface treatment, but is mixed throughout the product polymer, and therefore the surface layer is self-renewing as it migrates through the plastic, until it is no longer present in an effective concentration.

There is also growing concern that the overuse of triclosan is contributing to the natural selection of cross-resistant strains that are able to resist a spectrum of antibiotics, and not just triclosan.

[treznor]

So it appears my hunch may have been right, considering the above information. Mainly a marketing thing. Doesn't mean you shouldn't get it though as it won't damage the countertop, just don't factor the MicroBan into the decision heavily.

I have long been of the opinion that we have too much antibacterial soaps and sprays and what-have-you. To my mind the proliferation of antibacterial products is going to end up escalating the arms race that goes on in the household. We already are seeing resistant bacterial infections in people due to the overuse of antibiotics There's a natural cycle that's gone on for decades where the product that worked last year probably won't work as well this year because the bacteria has built up a protection against it. However, some other antibiotic would work against it just fine. This is one of the reasons why there are so many antibiotics on the market. However, now we are starting to see bacteria where we have to ratchet up the dose higher or it's just resistant to all existing antibiotics. Sooner or later I feel this is going to start happening in the household and then we won't be able to contain them. For those reasons I leave antibacterial products out of my household wherever I can except where they are needed.

That having been said though, the kitchen is the primary place that I would consider them needed. The bacteria in the kitchen are just too nasty and too dangerous to not try and kill off every bit of them.

[dmwine]

We redid our kitchen (entire house, actually) three years ago after a fire. It's amazing what smoke will do to the plastic LEDs on kitchen appliances! Anyway, we used the insurance and the near tragedy to install some major upgrades. My thoughts, 2.5 years later, about my dream kitchen:

We bought a 6-burner DCS cooktop and double wall ovens. The cooktop is great, 17,500 BTU per burner, heats fast and recovers temp fast after adding food to pot or pan. However, I do have some caveats that might lead me to make another choice if I were doing this today. The physical size of the burners is bigger than most of my pots (remember how they say the flame should not go up the side of the pan? Ha!). Also, as the gas element is round, it really heats the edge of the pan, but the middle weirdly enough is a (relative) cool spot. The Thermador star-shaped burners would avoid that problem.

The wall ovens are great - rolling oven racks make moving food around really easy. The ovens are also cast iron, which gave the contractors fits, but retains heat. The cooling fan runs forever after turning it off, though. The convection roast feature is great for crisping skin on a chicken. The broiler is merely so-so - hotter than most electric broilers, but still smokes up the joint. I don't use it for cooking much, just quick browning.

Flooring - we have a linoleum that looks so much like our flagstone patio that everyone visiting for the first time is floored to learn it isn't tile. Much more comfortable, and easy to clean, with 2 dogs and a kid. There are also wood type laminates that are made of hardwood, cheaper and easier to clean, but I hear they can scuff easily if you have pets or kids.

Cabinets - if you skimp on cheaper ones, you'll likely regret it. We did. Design wise, my wife insisted the wall cabs go all the way to the ceiling, 'cause she didn't want to climb up and dust soffits. But the ceiling is uneven, so the doors are slightly uneven. I stopped obsessing about this after a year or so, but at least have some crown molding or something that can mask that. All houses settle - no walls, ceilings or floors are ever perfectly level.

Granite - ditto on the comments about dark granite above. We have "verde butterfly," similar to the too-popular uba tuba but more elegant, with flecks of something adding visual interest. We love it.

Lighting - good idea above on task lighting. Xenon is indeed "not as hot" as halogen, though it still is hot. But it adds a lot to the kitchen from an aesthetic and even a task point of view.

Hood - With my cooktop, I should have bought a larger hood (Mine is 600 f3 per minute - they go up to about 900 or even 1200 I think. Been awhile since I shopped). Even so, it's pretty effective on full blast, though with really smoky items we may need to open a window.

Dishwashers - we hate our Bosch. Wish we'd stayed with Maytag or KitchenAid.

Fridge: KitchenAid, bottom freezer. Really nice, though our 6 year old daughter has easy access to the ice cream! We also have another fridge and a stand-alone freezer in the basement, and a pantry in the laundry room, which is full despite pretty good storage in the kitchen. And despite a lot of counter space, we still clutter it up, 'cause that's who we are ...

Good luck - it's a frustrating but rewarding experience. At least you're doing it on your own terms.

[Heather]

Flooring - we have a linoleum that looks so much like our flagstone patio that everyone visiting for the first time is floored to learn it isn't tile. Much more comfortable, and easy to clean, with 2 dogs and a kid.

I actually really like linoleum. Like you said, it's comfortable to stand on and easy to clean.

[PollyG]

We replaced the sink in our kitchen shortly after moving into the house. The original owners were pretty obviously not cooks; the double sink did not have a sprayer arm. We special ordered a single sink in a double-sink size and will neversettle for anything less than a double-wide again. The double-wide sink is large enough to soak all of our big pans. I heartily recommend a big sink.

We have a Silestone countertop that is in its second year now and I'm still very happy with it.

What I really want is to remove our existing closet-style pantry and replace it with a pull-out style. But that will be some time in the future.

[DameEdna]

I actually really like linoleum. Like you said, it's comfortable to stand on and easy to clean.

Linoleum does come in many different patterns, more interesting than the 'looks like brick"
pattern often seen. (Yes, I do have a book on the subject).
Years ago my brother had some beautifu blue Italian tile installed for the kitchen floor: it was slippery,
hard to stand on and very easy to chip. He should have just pulled the tile out and started over, but it was
so darned expensive!

[ol_ironstomach]

My floor had multiple layers of nasty, worn vinyl, now happily replaced with Tarkett laminate flooring that imitates large tiles. The trick, they say, is first to make sure the subfloor is absolutely sound, and not to skimp on using a quality underlayment.

Some of my friends have adopted the stratagem "never buy a faucet that you can't stick your head under".

K-A and Asko make nice dishwashers (alas, most of the Bosch line here is cost-engineered just for the US market and has little in common with their European products) but I'd choose a Miele dishwasher again over any of them. The cavity is enormous, the racks adjust and reconfigure easily, and there's no comparison between their flatware drawer and the garden-variety basket. Having a good "crystal" cycle is also handy.

What porcupine said about adequate ventilation. A chemistry prof friend in Houston installed a proper laboratory fume hood remote fan. The grease filter panels jump a half-inch when you switch it on, and it aggressively evacuates the fumes from over his 48" Viking. Those stylish pop-up toys don't work...they suck the heat unevenly off of nearby pans, and can't get enough airflow to reach the distant row of pots anyway. Big hoods require some attention to make-up air however, especially if there are other combustion exhausts (fireplace, gas water heater, furnace) nearby. He also ran GFCI outlet strips down each of his walls like a laboratory. However, the counters are granite, and not laboratory FireSlate.

[JPW]

This thread has continually raised the following question in my head: Hey Larry, did you get your refridgerator fixed yet?

[mdt]

K-A and Asko make nice dishwashers (alas, most of the Bosch line here is cost-engineered just for the US market and has little in common with their European products) but I'd choose a Miele dishwasher again over any of them. The cavity is enormous, the racks adjust and reconfigure easily, and there's no comparison between their flatware drawer and the garden-variety basket. Having a good "crystal" cycle is also handy.

Hmmm, I need to purchase a new dishwasher. What line of Miele do you recommend?

[Pat]

Hmmm, I need to purchase a new dishwasher. What line of Miele do you recommend?

We like the Miele we got. The writing on the front of it tells me it is a G892 SC Touchtronic. It's got a cool notched rack on the top for putting in flatware individually so it's not all banging together.

[smokey]

Funny, we recently (3 months ago?) bought a Bosch and we love it. Maybe it is 'cost engineered for the U.S. market' and it might not now how to speak German if it met one of its cousins on the streets of Munich, but it's quiet as a church mouse and gets dishes clean even if they go into the dishwaster dirty. Neither of these things could be said for my former piece of **** dishwasher.

I'll admit that I didn't even look at the Mieles. That said, we used to have a Miele washer in a previous home and it was by far the best washer I've ever owned. Nothing has ever come close to getting my clothes as clean (not sure if that carries over to their dishwashers, but...).

[Pete]

The previous owners of our house spent a lot of money remodeling the kitchen, which included knocking down a couple of walls to open the kitchen up to the living room/dining room, double oven, stainless appliances, granite, etc. However, there are 2 things that really bother us about the kitchen:

1. Flooring - they put in white ceramic tiles, which show lots of dirt, and are incredibly slippery. I have almost whacked my head on the countertops several times in the 7 weeks we have been in the house. In addition, the flooring was probably put directly on top of the previous flooring. As a result, there is a large threshold that separates the flooring from the kitchen with the flooring in the living room/dining room. Therefore, when you sit at the island in the kitchen, you cannot move the bar stool without bumping into the flooring threshold. We are eventually going to rip out the flooring in the kitchen/living room/dining room and put in hardwood.

2. Sink placement - the sink is placed in the corner, which is, in theory, a good idea. However, THEY DID NOT PUT IN A CORNER SINK!!! They bought a regular sink and installed it on an angle. The sink sits too far back from the edge of the counter. As a result, you have to lean over quite a bit to wash dishes, which puts a tremendous strain on your back. Unfortunately, I don't think there is much we could do about this without destroying the granite countertops.

[mdt]

The previous owners of our house spent a lot of money remodeling the kitchen, which included knocking down a couple of walls to open the kitchen up to the living room/dining room, double oven, stainless appliances, granite, etc. However, there are 2 things that really bother us about the kitchen:

1. Flooring - they put in white ceramic tiles, which show lots of dirt, and are incredibly slippery. I have almost whacked my head on the countertops several times in the 7 weeks we have been in the house. In addition, the flooring was probably put directly on top of the previous flooring. As a result, there is a large threshold that separates the flooring from the kitchen with the flooring in the living room/dining room. Therefore, when you sit at the island in the kitchen, you cannot move the bar stool without bumping into the flooring threshold. We are eventually going to rip out the flooring in the kitchen/living room/dining room and put in hardwood.

I have white ceramic tiles in my kitchen and I feel the same way. I left them in when I put new cabinets in as I did not want the expense and hassle of replacing the floor. Almost 2 years later, I kind of wish I did replace the floors.

[squidsdc]

Hmmm, I need to purchase a new dishwasher. What line of Miele do you recommend?

We purchased our Touchtronic I think about 3 or more yrs ago, and there certainly weren't as many options as they have now! (I just took a gander at their website...I can't believe how many models they have now--Way too confusing) I highly recommend them--but it's also not necessary to get the "top" of the line model to have a good machine. My boss was sick of spending $400 every few years to replace a small-size dishwasher for work. So, she bought the Novotronic (basic model--air dry, no heat) for around $800, and it has been working wonderfully for over 5 years. It's already paid for itself by not having to replace it!

I realize that does not help you out at all. Hopefully this does...both the model purchased for work, and the one I have at home, were bought from Candey Hardware at 18th/Conn Ave. Eric is very knowledgable and very nice to work with. (As are the others) I highly recommend them; I'm sure they can help you wade through the multiple options that Miele is currently offering.

(When we were researching our dishwasher purchase, I cancelled out the Bosch as I had heard too many stories of problems and need for repairs)

[Saycheese]

We redid our kitchen about a year ago. Among other things, we chose to use drawers instead of wall cabinets for most of our storage and love them. Everything is so much more accessible and visible in drawers. The drawers are full extension, so they open all the way out. We got a 6-burner Dacor cooktop -- the grates are all flush (no gaps in between) so it's easy to slide a pot from one burner to another and also easy to put a roasting pan across two burners. We had a hard time finding a hood wide enough for the 48 inch cooktop, so we got one custom made by Rangecraft (in NJ) using a Thermador motor -- 1200 cfm -- with an external blower. Interestingly, the cost of the custom made hood was the same or slightly less than a Viking hood of the same size. Rangecraft even built the hood based on our own design, although they have a number of really interesting and beautiful ones on their website. We have 2 sinks -- one is a double sink with one large, deep bowl and one smaller shallower bowl (we use one of these to chill wine when we have parties), and the other sink is an extra deep, extra huge rectangular sink -- it's big enough to put our largest roasting pan in completely flat with room to spare, and it's great for washing out large stockpots (our 22 qt pot fits fine). After it was installed, we were concerned that it would be too deep for my tall husband to use it comfortably because he'd have to bend over to reach the bottom of the sink, but actually he hasn't complained. We put stainless steel counters next to the cooktop and granite on the islands. We did that for a couple of reasons -- first, we liked the contrast between the steel and the granite, and second, stainless is completely impervious to both heat and stains.
The kitchen designer kept urging us to put the microwave in a cabinet with a door, but we resisted because we knew the door would never be closed -- the same goes for an appliance garage -- we knew we'd never put things away properly. Everyone also kept saying we should get a warming drawer -- we didn't and maybe that's the only thing we might actually use that we didn't get.
We did get a set of Sub-Zero refrigerator drawers and absolutely love them. We use them a lot for parties, and they are great when you need to store something large like a cake or a turkey.

By the way, when you shop for your cooktop or ovens, take some pans with you to see how they fit and how you would feel actually using the stove -- like, do the burners feel tippy, is the oven big enough, is the door awkward, etc.

[Ilaine]

Cork floors. Love them. Warm, resilient, spill resistant, well-nigh impossible to stain. So far we've got cork down in the kitchen, laundry room, powder room, finished basement, and upstairs hall, and eventually will put cork in the bedrooms, too.

[DC in DC]

We are also currently at the beginning of a kitchen renovation. We'd like to do double wall ovens, and eliminate the microwave, but my brain cannot handle all the different varieties of speedcook ovens, convection/microwave ovens, etc. All we want is one regular oven and one oven that doubles as a microwave. If it also has a convection feature (with the ability to convert times from conventional recipes), all the better. Has anyone here actually bought and used the GE Advantium, Kitchen Aid Ultima, or Miele Speedcook (or whatever else is out there)? Also, I'm wary that this "speedcook" stuff is a fad that won't last. Thanks for your help.

[Pat]

One comment I will add--and this is something that has caught me by surprise--is to have some kind of toaster oven. When we renovated, I decided I wanted an old-fashioned toaster, which is great when I make actual toasted bread products. It turns out that's pretty infrequent. There are many more times when I wish I could heat something in a toaster oven (especially in summer), and I haven't got one. The last toaster oven we had was DeLonghi, but I never liked it. (That was one of the reasons I decided we didn't need one at all. Bad decision.)

So, I have no suggestion for what to get, but find room for a toaster oven if you aren't planning on it.

[thistle]

A toaster oven is a must in my kitchen, I still have an older Black & Decker that doesn't look too great, but works just fine. It's good for cooking small items w/out heating up the oven, & melting cheese.

I have a Kitchenaid Ultima speedcook oven (combo microwave/convection) & though I feel like I haven't utilized its full capabilities, I love it. The grill was missing when we bought the house, but I use the browning pan all the time. The regular oven is also is conventional/convection.

[Pool Boy]

My wife and I went through a kitchen and two bath renovation almost two years ago.

Things that I like about what we did --

Significantly increased counterspace, especially a large area of contiguous counter space.

Went with granite countertops, a splurge, but worth it for making pastry, not worrying about hot pots on it and it looks really good.

Went with a double oven by Miele -- convection in both and with four racks per oven. Primarily for baking, but it comes in very handy when we're cooking/roasting and more for bigger parties

Drastically increased (useful) cabinet and storage space

Using an entire cabinet for a spice rack door and converting the rest of the space to other spice like items

Ditching our microwave. It's been almost two years and we've NEVER needed it. Ever. We're never getting another one.

Getting a higher end cooktop with 5 burners. We wanted to go for a 6 burner, but there wasn''t enough space for where we wanted it placed in the kitchen. We also converted from an electric cooktop to a natural gas burner cooktop. We also opted for the seamless grates so you can slide pots around easily from burner to burner without lifting them. It's a Thermador.

Getting a bottom corner unit for trash, paper and glass/plastic/tin recycling bins

Getting a wide flat drawer for all of the cooking utensils. You won't store more things, but you will store them so you can see more of them at once making it easier to find what you're looking for.

Installing a bookcase for cookbooks right in the kitchen cabinetry.



Now, I'd have loved to figure out how to get an island in the kitchen or blow out a wall to have a counter where people could chat and kibbitz with you while you're cooking, but it was not to be. In the end, my kitchen is for cooking and my dining room is for hanging out and kibbitzing.

[kturkey88]

We are looking to "improve" our newly acquired kitchen. Has anyone had a better than average experience with a Contractor in the DC area during their renovations. This is a crowd with pretty high standards when it comes to their food. We are doing a tear it all out and rebuild so the more work you put em through the better.

thanks,
Jackie

[thistle]

Poolboy,
It sounds like your kitchen reno worked out wonderfully!-the things I envy the most are the drawers (my Mom redid her kitchen recently, I was down for a family reunion, & I loved those drawers!) & the cookbook bookshelves (mine are up in the tiny library). The only thing I'd question is the no more microwave-ever!? Do the double ovens really sub for a micro? I use mine for so many small things-heating water, melting beutter, defrosting, reheating leftovers-the kids can even heat up/cook things unassisted-I think I'd be lost without mine...

[Pool Boy]

Poolboy,
It sounds like your kitchen reno worked out wonderfully!-the things I envy the most are the drawers (my Mom redid her kitchen recently, I was down for a family reunion, & I loved those drawers!) & the cookbook bookshelves (mine are up in the tiny library). The only thing I'd question is the no more microwave-ever!? Do the double ovens really sub for a micro? I use mine for so many small things-heating water, melting beutter, defrosting, reheating leftovers-the kids can even heat up/cook things unassisted-I think I'd be lost without mine...

No microwave...EVER! I say good-day!

No seriously, we only used it for very few things we realized. Basically making lousy popcorn, softening butter and......that's about it. I prefer to defrost either in the refrigerator if I have time, on the counter if I have a bit less, in the sink in water if I have less, OR, and here's the best thing, in the Miele oven! It has a defrost setting that works well. But we re-heat leftovers on the cooktop or in the oven. Heating water is done on the cooktop. We don't have kids, so there's no worry there about kids hurting themselves or messing anything up. My wife and I agreed that if we really thought we needed one, we could always go back later and get a tiny under the cabinet mounted variety to install. But it's been almost two years and we've never looked back.

[JPW]

No microwave...EVER! I say good-day!

No seriously, we only used it for very few things we realized. Basically making lousy popcorn, softening butter and......that's about it. I prefer to defrost either in the refrigerator if I have time, on the counter if I have a bit less, in the sink in water if I have less, OR, and here's the best thing, in the Miele oven! It has a defrost setting that works well. But we re-heat leftovers on the cooktop or in the oven. Heating water is done on the cooktop. We don't have kids, so there's no worry there about kids hurting themselves or messing anything up. My wife and I agreed that if we really thought we needed one, we could always go back later and get a tiny under the cabinet mounted variety to install. But it's been almost two years and we've never looked back.

Exactly the same here. No microwave after renovation.

[squidsdc]

Sad news. Candey Hardware is closing. Since they were sellers of Miele, anyone looking to purchase an appliance might want to check if they will be having a sale to clear out stock before they close their doors.

[Barbara]

Sad news. Candey Hardware is closing. Since they were sellers of Miele, anyone looking to purchase an appliance might want to check if they will be having a sale to clear out stock before they close their doors.

This rather shocked me. There used to be three (count 'em THREE) hardware stores in Adams Morgan. Then there were NONE. Now, there is a little, bitty one at the end of my block. When this place didn't have what I needed, I would walk down CT Ave to Candeys. If worse came to worst, I would get on the Metro and go to Home Depot ( ). There is something to be said about urban hardware stores that one can get to on foot. You suburbanites have no idea what I'm talking about.

[johnb]

This rather shocked me. There used to be three (count 'em THREE) hardware stores in Adams Morgan. Then there were NONE. Now, there is a little, bitty one at the end of my block. When this place didn't have what I needed, I would walk down CT Ave to Candeys. If worse came to worst, I would get on the Metro and go to Home Depot ( ). There is something to be said about urban hardware stores that one can get to on foot. You suburbanites have no idea what I'm talking about.

In a way you're right, but the root of the problem is us. We aren't willing to pay the difference in price that such small businesses must charge to stay in business. We want to get it cheaper, so we go to suburban superstores instead, and the little neighborhood guys who charge too much disappear. Whether on balance that is a good or bad thing I will leave to you.

BTW, one of the main reasons the costs of such urban businesses is high is that the rents are so high, because other types of businesses, most notably cute, trendy, restaurants such as are often discussed in reverential tones here, compete for the space and drive the rents up. So those such as us who post here, and thus are instrumental in promoting the food trend, are particularly intertwined with the very development we decry. One more example of not being able to have it both ways.

[Heather]

In a way you're right, but the root of the problem is us. We aren't willing to pay the difference in price that such small businesses must charge to stay in business. We want to get it cheaper, so we go to suburban superstores instead, and the little neighborhood guys who charge too much disappear. Whether on balance that is a good or bad thing I will leave to you.

I assume you're speaking for some mythical "we" here. We (Scott and I) are willing to pay more to patronize local businesses, and I suspect that many of the people here who care about local food and restaurants extend that concern to local independent hardware stores, booksellers, etc.

BTW, one of the main reasons the costs of such urban businesses is high is that the rents are so high, because other types of businesses, most notably cute, trendy, restaurants such as are often discussed in reverential tones here, compete for the space and drive the rents up. So those such as us who post here, and thus are instrumental in promoting the food trend, are particularly intertwined with the very development we decry. One more example of not being able to have it both ways.

Somehow I doubt that the cute, trendy restaurants have a profit margin that allows for exorbitant rent escalations, unlike huge chains. If they did we would have cute, trendy places everywhere instead of Potbelly/Chipotle/McDonalds/etc..

[johnb]

Somehow I doubt that the cute, trendy restaurants have a profit margin that allows for exorbitant rent escalations, unlike huge chains. If they did we would have cute, trendy places everywhere instead of Potbelly/Chipotle/McDonalds/etc..

Any new restaurant, or any other new business, whether a cutsie trendy place, McD, the dry cleaner, bank branch, Trader Joe, whatever, is paying those increasingly high rents. Ipso facto, they can indeed afford the rents. I read about new independent restaurants on this board and elsewhere all the time, many of them being established in upscaling areas such as Columbia Heights and Adams Morgan and many others. They are paying the higher rents or they wouldn't be there.

Those who patronize those businesses, including restaurants, are as such instrumental in driving out the older businesses who can't afford the rents. My point, which I stand by, was that there has been an increasing foodie culture in this country in recent years, powered in part by those such as us, and this has led to more and more mid-scale (cute trendy) and other restaurants being established which, along with other businesses, are driving up rents thus creating the "problem." This of course assumes it is in fact a problem--some people would rather have the restaurant than the hardware store.

[lackadaisi]

BTW, one of the main reasons the costs of such urban businesses is high is that the rents are so high, because other types of businesses, most notably cute, trendy, restaurants such as are often discussed in reverential tones here, compete for the space and drive the rents up.

Actually, the bigger problem is property taxes. There is currently no limit on the increase of property taxes for commercial properties within DC, which forces out many small businesses; chains can afford the increases. This affects both the cute, trendy restaurants that are far too rare and the local stores that most city-dwellers want to keep. Thus, instead of blaming other victims of the problem, maybe the emphasis should be on how to fix it for all the small businesses that give life to city neighborhoods.