"I'm Gluten Intolerant...Intolerant" by Marc Vetri

[Pat]

Marc Vetri on customers ordering gluten-free.  I found the link to the article here, in a piece that provides some more background information on his interest in wheat.

He's been replying to some people in the comment thread on The Huffington Post piece.

[Ilaine]

The story about the woman sending back the risotto because of gluten was funny, but most people who avoid wheat and other sources of gluten are well-informed because they have to be.

Case in point, I wanted shrimp and grits from Mezzanine, a trendy "clean" restaurant in the Fan district in Richmond.  I asked the waitress whether it was gluten free, and she said yes, but it was readily apparent that, while the grits did not have any wheat, the sauce binding the shrimp was wheat based.  I was dumb to even try it, but she was negligent in not asking the chef.  The writer makes a good point, if you need to avoid wheat, say so, but he's also wrong, there are other grains that have gluten that people with celiac should not eat, including barley and rye.  An educated, intelligent chef ought to know that.

The writer is incorrect that people need to eat grains in order to be healthy.  Obviously wrong, people with celiac do NOT eat grains to be healthy.

Finally, the writer as chef makes an excellent point that if one is avoiding wheat, why eat fake wheaty food?  Well, it's true that most ersatz foods like gluten free pasta suck.  I have yet to eat one that wasn't an abomination.  But, sometimes you just gotta have a slice of gluten free bread, for example, in the summer time, for a fresh tomato sandwich.

For example, the Happy Tart on Mount Vernon makes some pretty decent gluten free brioche loaves that are great for sandwiches.  Their pie crusts are excellent, and they make a very fine quiche.  I wouldn't expect the same from a restaurant that serves the general public.

By the way, avoiding wheat is, as we all know, not at all the same thing as genuine celiac disease.  I don't have celiac but wheat causes me to have IBS.  I don't have an anaphylactic reaction, but pain in my gut.  Beer does not contain wheat unless it's wheat beer.

[DonRocks]

By the way, avoiding wheat is, as we all know, not at all the same thing as genuine celiac disease. 

Here is the best example of someone on a gluten-free diet who (I believe) doesn't have Celiac disease.

"Novak Djokovic: 'Going Gluten-Free Was A Real Game Changer" by Hannah Britt on www.express.co.uk

Lots of chefs are dismissive of people having gone gluten free, but how do you explain Djokovic? How do they know that gluten doesn't cause inflammation for some people? I think there are a *lot* of people out there who feel like hell 100% of the time, and going gluten free is one of the things they try on their path to feeling better. It might work, or it might not work, but I can understand them wanting to try because (not even considering Celiac disease) a diet of pizza, pasta, and bread is essentially like eating a bunch of sugar.

[Ilaine]

Lots of chefs are dismissive of people having gone gluten free

Which baffles me.  There are a lot of fad diets (gluten-free might be nothing but a fad for some) but this seems to be the only one that pisses people off.

Chefs don't get pissed off at vegans, vegetarians, Paleo, Atkins, why gluten-free?  The woman who set off Chef Vetri was ignorant, but ignorance isn't a cause for self-righteous anger.  Not a just cause, anyway.

[zoramargolis]

I heard from my BIL's daughter, before he was in town and coming here for dinner, that he had gone "gluten free." He's been vegetarian no alcohol for about 35 years. He is clearly someone who has been swept up in the fad because he heard that a lot of people were doing it in order to feel better. Clearly, he hadn't done much research or reading--he didn't realize that cous-cous had gluten in it, and had been eating a fair amount of it. Perhaps he confused it with quinoa. I've merely added that to the list of his anachronistic beliefs and practices that I have to remember not to react to with mockery. I've taken a "whatever floats your boat" attitude toward the multitude of dietary choices that are not prescribed due to illness: gluten freeism, along with paleo, low-fat, no carbs whatsoever, juice cleanses, et al. There is the phenomenon of the placebo effect, after all. If one truly believes that a diet can make them feel better subjectively, it might actually work. I do empathize with chefs who are descended upon by hordes of picky eaters expecting to be catered to with special menu creations. But I also understand that some people need to avoid certain foods that their bodies cannot tolerate. Boy, do I wish that I didn't have to say that I can't eat apples or walnuts. But the consequences of my body going haywire with allergic responses of various degrees over my lifetime, ranging from "itchy round the edges" to getting to the ER asap, make it necessary.

[weezy]

I try to limit the amount of wheat I eat, but don't often make "fake" foods using gluten free substitutes (with the exception of my lemon or lime bars that I bring to the DR picnics, so that everyone can enjoy them).  I do have some sensitivity, but a slice or two of bread or some pie crust in one day doesn't trigger it.  But if I have pancakes or french toast for breakfast, a sandwich for lunch, some cookies for dessert after dinner, etc., for a couple of days, I develop awful cystic acne on my face and nasty pimples elsewhere.  I didn't realize that was the trigger until I went on the Atkins diets many years ago and my skin cleared up within the first week.  Right now I've got a third eye growing on my chin because I just could not resist a few too many things in too short a period of time.  So, it's time to dial back on the wheat flour for awhile. 

[Pat]

The story about the woman sending back the risotto because of gluten was funny, but most people who avoid wheat and other sources of gluten are well-informed because they have to be.

Case in point, I wanted shrimp and grits from Mezzanine, a trendy "clean" restaurant in the Fan district in Richmond.  I asked the waitress whether it was gluten free, and she said yes, but it was readily apparent that, while the grits did not have any wheat, the sauce binding the shrimp was wheat based.  I was dumb to even try it, but she was negligent in not asking the chef.  The writer makes a good point, if you need to avoid wheat, say so, but he's also wrong, there are other grains that have gluten that people with celiac should not eat, including barley and rye.  An educated, intelligent chef ought to know that.

The writer is incorrect that people need to eat grains in order to be healthy.  Obviously wrong, people with celiac do NOT eat grains to be healthy.

Finally, the writer as chef makes an excellent point that if one is avoiding wheat, why eat fake wheaty food?  Well, it's true that most ersatz foods like gluten free pasta suck.  I have yet to eat one that wasn't an abomination.  But, sometimes you just gotta have a slice of gluten free bread, for example, in the summer time, for a fresh tomato sandwich.

For example, the Happy Tart on Mount Vernon makes some pretty decent gluten free brioche loaves that are great for sandwiches.  Their pie crusts are excellent, and they make a very fine quiche.  I wouldn't expect the same from a restaurant that serves the general public.

By the way, avoiding wheat is, as we all know, not at all the same thing as genuine celiac disease.  I don't have celiac but wheat causes me to have IBS.  I don't have an anaphylactic reaction, but pain in my gut.  Beer does not contain wheat unless it's wheat beer.

Beer is made from barley and rye too.  That's why the chef was surprised that she was drinking beer.  Sometimes people can tolerate limited amounts of some beers when they cannot tolerate other forms of gluten, but the fact that she didn't understand that rice doesn't have gluten seems a real tip-off that she wasn't as well aware of the condition as one would expect a person who would become ill from gluten would have been.  In a restaurant of that caliber, when one has requested gluten-free, it would be shocking if they would include an ingredient in risotto that would contain gluten.  And, she didn't question that.  She didn't ask the server for confirmation that the risotto was gluten-free.  She refused to eat it because it contained rice.

And, Don, it's entirely possible that some people benefit from going gluten-free because eliminating gluten-containing foods also eliminates something else previously unidentified in their diet that is causing problems.

[Ilaine]

Yes, Pat, the lady was clueless.  Personally, if I were her chef, I would not have held her up to ridicule in a forum like Huffington Post.  I also won't willingly eat at a restaurant where the chef is irritated by dietary choices.  Just because you cook it, don't expect me to eat it.

I saw on teh internets that Jimmy Fallon ridiculed people who said they were gluten free but had no idea what gluten is.  Didn't actually watch the video, would have found it excruciating, probably.

Just because people who espouse an idea are stupid, doesn't mean the idea is stupid.

I can, and have, after swearing off wheat, eaten truly excellent wheat bread slathered with butter without dying from anaphylactic shock.  And spent embarassing hours on the toilet afterwards.  I may be a moron for that, but at least I knew what I was doing, and took the risk freely and of my own will.

[Pat]

Just because people who espouse an idea are stupid, doesn't mean the idea is stupid.

He didn't say the idea of celiac or any other food allergy was stupid.  He made a point of emphasizing that he and his restaurant are accommodating of allergies and strong preferences. He wants people to be honest about it.

I've had the experience of eating out with people who insist they absolutely cannot have a certain food because of some health condition and who then proceed to eat something else also prohibited but that they really want to have.  That drives me crazy.  You just ran the waitress through a several minute interrogation of what you couldn't eat and then go on to violate the strict diet with something else.  That must drive chefs absolutely nuts.

[deangold]

I worked with someone who had a severe shrimp allergy.  He ate something apparently cross contaminated and died.

This Wikipedia entry shows that the question is not as simple as Mr Vetri makes it seem.  There is a spectrum of sensitivity.

If a guest wants something cooked a particular way, and we can do it, we do.  It's that simple.  It's called hospitality.  I don't think you should hold up a guest for scorn because they are lacking in knowledge, or are inconsistent.  I mean according to Goiedel's theorem, even number theory is incomplete or inconsistent.  So asking messy humans {in the neuron/emerging consciousness sense, not hygiene} to be consistent is something we don't ask of maths.

[johnb]

There is a spectrum of sensitivity.  

It is indeed very complex.  Janet is a diagnosed celiac.  Even so, some things with wheat seem to be OK.  For example, I believe it was here on DR that I first saw some indication that soy sauce is actually OK.  We tried it and sure enough she has no problem with normal soy sauce.  More startlingly, some research I came across suggests that bread made with true levain (true sour dough) is OK.  We have a guy in the small town where we live who bakes such bread, and she can eat it with no problem (at least in measured quantities).  Recently we have gotten into the cocktail at 5pm habit, and I forgot and mixed up some for her using vodka (almost all of which is made from wheat these days) and there was no problem.  I'm not suggesting anyone with celiac should try these things with abandon, but for her they work.

The thread that ties these things together appears to be fermentation.  There seems to be some evidence that, at least for some folks in some cases, if wheat (rye, barley?) is fermented that neutralizes whatever is causing the auto immune response in celiacs.  So perhaps we'll continue experimenting.  Next up -- beer.

[Poivrot Farci]

  Recently we have gotten into the cocktail at 5pm habit, and I forgot and mixed up some for her using vodka (almost all of which is made from wheat these days) and there was no problem.  I'm not suggesting anyone with celiac should try these things with abandon, but for her they work.

Distilled spirits have never, and will never ever contain gluten.  Gluten is not volatile.

Advantage Vetri, and placebos.

[kwhitney]

Your idea of testing for allergies at the ER door, is not very bright. There are doctors who can do this testing under proper conditions.

[johnb]

Distilled spirits have never, and will never ever contain gluten.  Gluten is not volatile.

Advantage Vetri, and placebos.

You're correct.  Nevertheless, I have seen commentary that distilled spirits made with wheat should/must be avoided.  The "theory" being, I suppose, that some aspect of whatever causes the reaction does get through.

And yes, the placebo effect lives and is strong.  I have more than once been excoriated on these pages, including by the founder, for pointing that out; some things just ain't worth it no mo.

[DonRocks]

Your idea of testing for allergies at the ER door, is not very bright. There are doctors who can do this testing under proper conditions.

I deleted that post because I'm writing for masses of strangers who will interpret my writing God-knows-how.

You have a much higher opinion of doctors than I do.

[lperry]

It is indeed very complex.  Janet is a diagnosed celiac.  Even so, some things with wheat seem to be OK.  For example, I believe it was here on DR that I first saw some indication that soy sauce is actually OK.  We tried it and sure enough she has no problem with normal soy sauce.  More startlingly, some research I came across suggests that bread made with true levain (true sour dough) is OK.  We have a guy in the small town where we live who bakes such bread, and she can eat it with no problem (at least in measured quantities).  Recently we have gotten into the cocktail at 5pm habit, and I forgot and mixed up some for her using vodka (almost all of which is made from wheat these days) and there was no problem.  I'm not suggesting anyone with celiac should try these things with abandon, but for her they work.

The thread that ties these things together appears to be fermentation.  There seems to be some evidence that, at least for some folks in some cases, if wheat (rye, barley?) is fermented that neutralizes whatever is causing the auto immune response in celiacs.  So perhaps we'll continue experimenting.  Next up -- beer.

That was me.  I did a great deal of research when Mr. lperry was diagnosed with celiac -  here's one article.  He's gotten sick at a couple of Chinese restaurants, so now avoids soy sauce unless it's at home where I have rice-based soy sauce products.  The bread is an interesting one.  I used to buy the sourdough from a couple of local bakeries before diagnosis, and he had less "issue" with it than other breads.  I would be very careful and make certain she has been tested by her doctor for the antibodies, though.  One friend with celiac is asymptomatic, and she only found out about her disease after her son was diagnosed.  She had terrible intestinal damage, and her brother had lymphoma before they got it all figured out.

I've tried to convince Mr. lperry to tell servers that he has celiac and not a "wheat allergy" or "I need gluten-free" simply because of the increasing occurrence of restaurant employees and chefs who believe their customers are mentally deficient and aren't as qualified as the restaurant to understand what they should eat.  He's had both TTP and lymphoma from the untreated celiac, and damage is cumulative, so we could face those diseases again or colon cancer in the future if he is not careful.  He's already lost an estimated 8 years of life from the chemo treatments.  It's not a joke.

[johnb]

That was me.  I did a great deal of research when Mr. lperry was diagnosed with celiac -  here's one article.  He's gotten sick at a couple of Chinese restaurants, so now avoids soy unless it's at home where I have rice-based products.  The bread is an interesting one.  I used to buy the sourdough from a couple of local bakeries before diagnosis, and he had less "issue" with it than other breads.  I would be very careful and make certain she has been tested by her doctor for the antibodies, though.  One friend with celiac is asymptomatic, and she only found out about her disease after her son was diagnosed.  She had terrible intestinal damage, and her brother had lymphoma before they got it all figured out.

I've tried to convince Mr. lperry to tell servers that he has celiac and not a "wheat allergy" or "I need gluten-free" simply because of the increasing occurrence of restaurant employees and chefs who believe their customers are mentally deficient and aren't as qualified as the restaurant to understand what they should eat.  He's had both TTP and lymphoma from the untreated celiac, and damage is cumulative, so we could face those diseases again or colon cancer in the future if he is not careful.  He's already lost an estimated 8 years of life from the chemo treatments.  It's not a joke.

Yes I do recall it was you who posted that, and I'm grateful for the information.

The case of soy sauce is interesting, since it generally contains both wheat and soy, and each of those has its cohort of avoiders.  In the case of strictly celiac,  the soy isn't an issue AFAIK, but of course the wheat does raise concern.

Oddly, I'm the one in our household who has has lymphoma, not her.

I totally agree with you about the restaurant problem, which is also what triggered this thread.  When one has celiac and actually MUST avoid gluten, it is sometimes difficult and a little embarrassing dealing with the skepticism of restaurant folks who have experience dealing with (forgive me) air heads coming in and making a show of insisting on no gluten, not having much idea about what that means or why it might actually matter but simply following the latest fad.

[lperry]

Yes I do recall it was you who posted that, and I'm grateful for the information.

The case of soy sauce is interesting, since it generally contains both wheat and soy, and each of those has its cohort of avoiders.  In the case of strictly celiac,  the soy isn't an issue AFAIK, but of course the wheat does raise concern.

Oddly, I'm the one in our household who has has lymphoma, not her.

I totally agree with you about the restaurant problem, which is also what triggered this thread.  When one has celiac and actually MUST avoid gluten, it is sometimes difficult and a little embarrassing dealing with the skepticism of restaurant folks who have experience dealing with (forgive me) air heads coming in and making a show of insisting on no gluten, not having much idea about what that means or why it might actually matter but simply following the latest fad.

Vietnamese soy sauce contains rice instead of wheat, so that's what I have at home.  And terribly sorry to hear about the lymphoma.  Mr. lperry is five years clear which is considered cured, and I wish you the same.

The fad aspect of GF goes both ways.  It makes it both much easier to find GF products in the grocery stores, but also much more difficult to be certain your needs are being met in a restaurant.  We have places we trust in town, and I'm going to get Mr. lperry some of these cards for when he travels.  Twice on the last trip he had servers assure him the meal was gluten-free only to have them come back with a plate covered with wheat, followed by an admission that they didn't really understand what GF is.  Poor training and disrespectful dismissal of the customer's request.

[Ilaine]

If a guest wants something cooked a particular way, and we can do it, we do.  It's that simple.  It's called hospitality.  I don't think you should hold up a guest for scorn because they are lacking in knowledge, or are inconsistent.  I mean according to Goiedel's theorem, even number theory is incomplete or inconsistent.  So asking messy humans {in the neuron/emerging consciousness sense, not hygiene} to be consistent is something we don't ask of maths.  

Well said.  Dean, I have posted before but it bears repeating, I really appreciate the fact that you indicate on your menus which items containe gluten and which items can be prepared without gluten.  Similar for vegan and vegetarian.  I find it very respectful.

[johnb]

Vietnamese soy sauce contains rice instead of wheat, so that's what I have at home.  And terribly sorry to hear about the lymphoma.  Mr. lperry is five years clear which is considered cured, and I wish you the same.

Thai soy sauce too.  I guess most any soy sauce made in the south where wheat is rare and rice is common.  I believe it's generically referred to as "white" soy sauce.  But it's hard to find, and IMO doesn't pack as much punch.

I'm 20 years clear.  My oncologist said at the time that very likely it wouldn't ever come back.  I used to return for annual checkups, mostly because I enjoyed joking around with him, but he finally said stop coming already.  Hope your guy has a similar experience.

[ktmoomau]

I am really trying to not get on my soapbox here.  I will just say some simple things that I have personally experienced through my life or close personal friends and family.  There are many medical problems that you can have that make you sick eating different foods.  Lyme Disease, Auto Immune Diseases, IBS and a host of others, it's not just allergies.  The tests to diagnose these diseases are not very accurate and there is very little research done on many of them. The tests to diagnose celiac are not very accurate.  The number of people getting lyme disease and other auto immune diseases are rising rapidly.  We aren't devoting much money into studying them.  I hate to frown on the medical community, but given my story I think I am allowed to.  Doctors aren't paid these days to look at your complete medical history and try to figure out what is wrong with you.  They are paid to treat symptoms, send you for tests and treat your symptom at that moment.  It's how the insurance industry pays them to work.  Doctors are not very good at catching and treating Lyme and other auto immune diseases.  And many doctors brush off symptoms especially in women as stress.  There are many women not receiving great medical care because many of the diseases out there manifest in different ways in women, especially fatigue and digestive issues.  People trying to not be sick on a daily basis often have a lot of trial and error.  Dairy and gluten seem to be the most common.  I have struggled with varying degrees of sensitivity or intolerance in both dairy and gluten.  Under treatment I have been feeling much better, but there are days my stomach is really sensitive and I am back to it.  I would prefer for chefs not to speculate on why I am eating bread one day and the next I say I cannot.  So I tend to go to places that I know I can eat.  I wish all these people bashing people would recognize there are many people for whom this is a medical condition and it's a bigger group than you suspect.  When I wasn't being treated for Lyme, if I ate gluten or dairy I was in pain, real pain, so severe it could keep me up all night.  Anyway, I wish we would judge others less and feel a little more empathy.  Yes, there are always bad apples.  But there are many more people than just celiacs for whom this is real.  And maybe with more medical research we will figure out if it really is fructose, or this or that, but we just don't have that much information yet.  Wouldn't it be grand if we researched how to make people feel better and not what was profitable.  Anyway my two cents.

[Ilaine]

Ktmoomau, excellent post and I agree with everything you say, especially the part about trial and error as you try to figure out your triggers.

I thought I had basically healed my gut with an intensive regiment of probiotics and prebiotics so I've kept pushing the envelope on what I can tolerate but sometimes -- often -- the envelope pushes back.

Ain't nobody's business but mine.