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Criticizing the Critics


bilrus

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Not that anyone has asked me, but I feel that it would serve the membership here to have a more general discussion forum, for those topics that do not fit neatly into the existing forums.

I realize that Don really wants to avoid having any of the threads get "chatty", or seriously off-topic.

His house, his rules, but sometimes I wish the rules of the house were a bit more explicitly defined to avoid ones posts getting deleted or moved. Knowing ones limits on self-expression would be most helpful.

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Far be it for me or anybody else to tell Don what to do (especially since I'm an infrequent poster, but constant reader), but it strikes me that there's a rather easy solution to this:  set up a separate forum within this board for "DC Dining in Retrospect" or some such title.

After having written (and erased) a couple of replies to Joe H, I think hungry prof has hit the nail on the head. I will simply say that the restaurant scene in DC has never been better than it is today. For that, I am very grateful. And, I don't much care WHY this has come about. (Actually, I DO know, but who cares?)
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I have thought as of late that another section should be started so that off subjects can be placed there.

I think it may have blown Mr. Rockwell away that his website has becme as popular as it has. There are always growing pains, for us and for him. But until one of us wants to start up our own board, we may just have to bite the bullet and accept Mr. Rockwell's um...rules. But from what I hear, he really doesn't bite.

Joe, I think starting your own blog would be a wonderful idea. You could place a link at your signature and you would probably be astounded at how many of us would actually go on there.

So Don, are you sorry you placed your name on this board?

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[Okay, I just read through this thread, and here are my thoughts.

What I don't like is for people to think of this as "my playground," "my website," "my set of rules." I don't look at the people here as "my" members, and I don't look at this website as something that I lord over. I'm here to foster and nurture a community where all members are treated with equal respect, and no member is valued more than others.

There are rules here, although they haven't been formally codified. Basically, they are: stay on topic, and be respectful of other people. "On topic" in the Restaurants and Dining forum usually means one thread per restaurant, an occasional thread for a charitable or dr.com event that is open to all members here, "Best of" threads such as where to find a good cheeseburger, and occasionally geographical threads such as "Where to dine in Roanoke." But that's about it, and any new thread started in this particular forum is outside the scope of what I intend it to be.

Joe H posted about his "Blowout Dinner" at the Laboratorio without asking me first, and I decided to let it have its own thread rather than merging into the general "Laboratorio" thread. Why? Because I was cutting him some slack. But make no doubt about it: these types of events are not allowed to have their own threads unless every single member here is invited to them, and this was a closed, private event. Regardless, I made an exception and let it stand as a gesture of respect.

Then several days ago, this essay appeared on the forum, in its own thread, and I didn't have the heart to delete it, so I took no action. Several hours passed without a response, and it began dropping down on the page until Joe H replied to his own posting with something that had absolutely nothing to do with the DC dining scene, bumping it back up to the top of the page. At that point, I locked the thread until I had a chance to figure out what to do with it - probably move it into a "Press and Media" forum which I will be instituting sometime in the future. Once again, I made a special exception for Joe H, but I will do so no longer. Would I want anyone else here to write an essay and put it on a separate thread in the "Restaurants and Dining" section? No. For now, I have moved the essay here and people are free to discuss it.

It's also a good time to remind people about the "Report!" button down at the bottom of each page. If you feel a posting is out of line, click that button, write a short note, and it will be brought to my attention.

Finally, if anyone has any questions or concerns about the way I run this forum, or why I took administrative action against a certain posting, please send me a message and ask me privately rather than airing your grievances publicly.

Cheers,

Rocks.]

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I liked the essay, and I read it but didn't comment. I don't always agree with Joe H, but I enjoy reading his posts. Now I have a better understanding of where he is coming from and how he got here.

I'd love for there to be another forum or two for topics that just don't really fit into the ones we have now.

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I thought about this when Joe H posted this reply regarding a disappointing experience I had at a local restaurant.

Personally, I have never really paid a lot of attention to Sietsema's reviews. I have found that over the years we have very different tastes and I often disagree with his reviews. But I am someone, obviously, who is passionate about food. My guess is that the average Post reader doesn't put much thought into comparing their tastes to Sietsema's.

I am also hesitant to trust any restaurant review in a major publication. Most restaurants know who to keep an eye out for. And although I am fortunate enough to receive above and beyond service at local restaurants, I know it is not the same as when a reviewer dines in a restaurant.

If the restaurant is smart they put out their best, hopefully paying attention to the smallest detail. I don't blame them. I know my job performance improves when my principal is observing me. It's human nature.

But to what extent can we trust the average restaurant review? They receive a level of service and attention to their food that the average diner cannot expect.

I know, I know, they have disguises, use fake names, etc. But let's be realistic here, a majority of restaurants know whom to look for.

So how much faith should we, those who are supposed to know food, put into their words? What about the average diner? They base their dining decisions on a meal they cannot expect. Is that fair? Is there a solution?

Discuss...

For what's worth, I was lucky enough to grow up in the era of Ms. Richman. Reading her reviews over Saturday lunch is a ritual I miss. When I was in college my mother used to send them to me and the photos included dotted my freshman dorm. I only eat tomatoes for three months a year because Ms. Richman taught me to. I miss her prose and imagine I am not the only one.

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To a great extent you can trust the review only as much as the faith you place in the reviewer. This faith, as you noted, is often governed by the similarity of their taste to your's or mine. On this note: my taste far more often than not agrees with Sietsema. As my wife often disagrees with me I accept that you may, too or anyone else for that matter. Still, there are some professional reviewers who I seek out; these include Alan Richman, Jane and Michael Stern, Calvin Trilling and yes, of course, Phyllis Richman. (But she and I have had some disagreements, too, dating back to Gifford's ice cream in the early '80's when it first closed.) Still, I have a great deal of respect for her and the others. I still have her full page travelogues/food expediitons for Vancouver and Singapore. They may now be out of date but over the years I have now been to every one of the Vancouver restaurants that she wrote about. Her opinion meant far more to me than any other reviewer. She and I had the same reference point for here.

I do not discount the opinion of most critics. For me and I think for many, it is just finding the critic or one whose opinion most closely mirrors your or my own.

Edited by Joe H
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Joe, first I to know that I am not looking for a fight or to pick on your post. But what you said got me thinking, especially since you are such a fan of Tom. I guess I am amazed at your blind faith in Tom considering your level of food knowledge.

Most of the dining public decides where to eat based upon newspaper or magazine reviews. (Let's not forget Kliman in all of this <_< )

I guess what I am asking is how you put so much faith in a review knowing that your food will not receive the level of attention that a reviewers did? And should a number of less than stellar reviews on this board or a smiliar format carry the same weight, or even more, since it was a more realistic experience than what Tom, or Kliman, or any other reviewer had?

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I think one of the central points that we disagree on is our respective faith in the reviewer. I believe that Tom Sietsema has FAR MORE EXPERIENCE than Todd Kliman. But, then, he should. He's been doing this for over 20 years and he apprenticed with Phyllis while also doing stints in Milwaukee, Seattle and San Francisco (I believe). I've been to many of the restaurants he has written about in these and other cities because I travel so much. Not every time-but very, very often the experience I had mirrored his.

Now, trust me on this (and I wish Tom would post on this board for what I am about to say): there have been times I've written him and couldn't believe that he gave the "rating" or review to a restaurant that he did. I was really upset about his comments about Susan Wallace, the gifted (to me) pastry chef at Black Salt. He demoted Four and Twenty Blackbirds to two stars. I wrote him about both.

Well, apparently "two dozen crows" has genuinely fallen down a notch. And Susan Wallace? In my opinion she (next to Michel Richard) is turning out the best desserts in D. C.

Still, I trust his opinions; simply his taste seems to far more often than not be similar to mine.

I thnk for any board it is all about finding one or several people, just as it is about finding a reviewer whose taste is similar to your own and paying attention to this. There are many people who will strongly disagree with my favoring Guajillo over the Riverdale mom and pop places. There are also others, like myself, who respect them and like them but believe they are a step below the Arlington restaurant. If someone reading this has been to Gaujillo and Taqueria Poblano and liked them (as I have) then my comments will have value. But for those who much prefer the Riverdales places my opinions will fall short.

And yes, there are some people on this and other boards who, when they really like a restaurant, have a great deal of meaning to me and how soon I will eat there.

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Joe, I find that your taste agrees with mine most of the time as well. I always love to read your reviews. Just like you trust Tom most of the time, I feel the same about your reviews.

But you're wrong on TP and Guajillo. <_<;):)

I live in MoCo, so I'm about equidistant to Alexandria and Riverdale. And I would drive to Riverdale ten times before I'd go to Alexandria. The service isn't as good, the atmosphere isn't as pleasant, but to me, the food is much superior. I find the sauces on the tacos at TP to be jarring - they just get in the way of the meat. And I don't see what makes Guajillo any better than the rest of the Salvadorean/Tex-Mex places in the metro area.

I don't think this is any different than finding wine reviewers, or movie reviewers, or for us tech geeks out there, electronic equipment reviewers. You find a source whose opinion seems to match yours most of the time, and you give that source greater weight than others. I find that I mostly agree with Joe and Sietsema, but only about half the time with Kliman. So if they all review the same place, I know which review I'm going to lend more credence to.

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For what's worth, I was lucky enough to grow up in the era of Ms. Richman.  Reading her reviews over Saturday lunch is a ritual I miss.  When I was in college my mother used to send them to me and the photos included dotted my freshman dorm.  I only eat tomatoes for three months a year because Ms. Richman taught me to.  I miss her prose and imagine I am not the only one.

Mme. Richman's prose was indeed eloquent, but if folks think that Tom Sietsema has unrealistic expectations of service based on his experiences...

To me it was evident from her reviews that while she was theoretically supposed to be anonymous, if the restaurant didn't actually recognize her and treat her accordingly (i.e. like the Queen of Sheba, of course, while coyly pretending they had no idea who she was), they got slammed. I certainly don't expect a celebutante's reception when I go out to a restaurant, and in her latter days Phyllis R. really seemed to lose touch with the average diner's experience.

To be fair, one of my favourite restaurants on the planet is The Vortex in Atlanta. They are not rude - they are just very, very specific about what crap they won't tolerate being foisted on their staff.

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OMG.  This is my first experience of being jumped on for pointing out that I did not particularly care or have a good experience at a sacred cow of the DR world.

It's not pretty, is it? :) Fortunately, your opinion counts just as much as theirs - actually I am more interested in mixed reviews that unabashed raves. Why should a diner have to be familiar with the restaurant, "its food, its layout and its comparative price points", to get good service, or perceive the value to them? Their personal experience will always trump the collective wisdom of the group.

I didn't think the original poster wasn't clear or informed as to their experience.

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It's not pretty, is it?   :)    Fortunately, your opinion counts just as much as theirs - actually I am more interested in mixed reviews that unabashed raves.  Why should a diner have to be familiar with the restaurant, "its food, its layout and its comparative price points", to get good service, or perceive the value to them?  Their personal experience will always trump the collective wisdom of the group. 

I didn't think the original poster wasn't clear or informed as to their experience.

Heather is right - mixed or negative reviews are interesting and welcome. My point was only that those for whom a restaurant is more frequently patronized and thought highly of will be interested in more precise criticism and more information about the complaint when it is a generalized "the service sucked" kind of criticism (not that NCPinDC said any such thing - infact, she had high praise for the service after the initial delay in getting her dinner order taken at the bar.) NCPinDC's original post started by admitting she was not informed about the fact that the bar was a bar ("I was unaware that the bar at Eve was not the same as the front room of Palena") which, had she known, as she herself said, would have better informed her experience, and will guide her approach to eating there in the future. That is what I meant by "informed" - not that her criticism was not valid or valued, which, of course, it is.
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So NCPinDC had a mixed experience at Restaurant Eve.

We've all had mixed experiences at different restaurants and most of us have posted about them here at one time or another. What makes this one different? Why the assumption that NCPinDC has ulterior motives or unrealistic expectations or not enough sense to understand the difference between a bar that serves some food and one that serves dinner.

What is it about some places where a complete tirade about everything from the valet stand through dessert goes unremarked or with simple nodding agreement, but other places demand full on, widespread, late night rebuttal to posts that only mention a few little issues?

Sometimes I just don't get it and it makes me less likely to trust the what I read from some when it sometimes seems to be driven by such a herd mentality.

I like this community best when we all have our opinions. Not just one collective one.

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Sometimes I just don't get it and it makes me less likely to trust the what I read from some when it sometimes seems to be driven by such a herd mentality. 

I like this community best when we all have our opinions.  Not just one collective one.

Well said!!!
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It's not pretty, is it?   :)    Fortunately, your opinion counts just as much as theirs - actually I am more interested in mixed reviews that unabashed raves.  Why should a diner have to be familiar with the restaurant, "its food, its layout and its comparative price points", to get good service, or perceive the value to them?  Their personal experience will always trump the collective wisdom of the group. 

I didn't think the original poster wasn't clear or informed as to their experience.

It's really not. Disagreement is dandy--even fun! But stalking and frothing, personal responses have led me, for one, to curtail my time responding here. If I wanted to be harangued by wierdos I'd hang out with my family.

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The moment you approached me and informed me you were a ‘Don Rockwell’ poster <snip>

There being two sides to every story, I don't want to get into too much of a snit on this, but using participation on this or any other foodie web site as a dangling blade to get better service is something that I find utterly classless. Not the least because it creates a bad image in the restaurateurs' minds about the group and, by extension, its members.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't have complained about what you felt was poor service, every diner should stand up for themselves and I applaud you for doing so, but only about the veiled threat.

This isn't a membership card society designed to get better experiences out of restaurants because we've paid some sort of dues. This is a place for food and beverage lovers to seek out the best and share their experiences.

I've had things and service at Eve that I loved and other things and service that I found just so-so, but I've never expected special treatment from them because I post here. I don't expect special treatment from them at all seeing as how I've only been in a handful of times since they opened.

Do I get special treatment from certain places? Certainly. But they're places where I go often, spend a lot of money, tip well, develop friendships with the staff, and don't demand special treatment.

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There being two sides to every story, I don't want to get into too much of a snit on this, but using participation on this or any other foodie web site as a dangling blade to get better service is something that I find utterly classless. Not the least because it creates a bad image in the restaurateurs' minds about the group and, by extension, its members.

To play the DR.com card, get better service because of it (and free stuff to boot) and then to go ahead and write a negative post about it would leave many speechless. (I smell a thread split coming on here.)

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There being two sides to every story, I don't want to get into too much of a snit on this, but using participation on this or any other foodie web site as a dangling blade to get better service is something that I find utterly classless. Not the least because it creates a bad image in the restaurateurs' minds about the group and, by extension, its members.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't have complained about what you felt was poor service, every diner should stand up for themselves and I applaud you for doing so, but only about the veiled threat.

This isn't a membership card society designed to get better experiences out of restaurants because we've paid some sort of dues. This is a place for food and beverage lovers to seek out the best and share their experiences.

I've had things and service at Eve that I loved and other things and service that I found just so-so, but I've never expected special treatment from them because I post here. I don't expect special treatment from them at all seeing as how I've only been in a handful of times since they opened.

Do I get special treatment from certain places? Certainly. But they're places where I go often, spend a lot of money, tip well, develop friendships with the staff, and don't demand special treatment.

Thank you for stating what I was thinking in a much more rational manner.

I certainly hope that her reference to this site was only that she had heard good things about Eve and nothing else. If not, well...

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To play the DR.com card, get better service because of it (and free stuff to boot) and then to go ahead and write a negative post about it would leave many speechless.  (I smell a thread split coming on here.)

I did not play the DR.com card at all. I mentioned to them that I was on DR.com as I do at any restaurant I hear about on this site. As a lawyer in private practice I valued referrals. I liked to know where people had heard about me, it helped me know a little about them as well as about me.

Ask the staff at Eve, when they apologized initially about the delay, I asked my friends if they wanted to stay. Once we chose to stay the clock started over. We made the choice to stay, we did not choose to stay to get a free appetizer or any other special treatement. We stayed because we wanted to try the food.

I did not write a negative piece. Read my initial post. I took responsibility for the confusion over the bar, I acknowledged that we chose to stay after the initial problem and that we liked the food. All I did was point out that the bar is not the bistro and that I was not aware of the distinction prior to eating at Eve. I also acknowledged that we had gone as a whim and I didn't check DR.com before trying the restaurant.

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I did not play the DR.com card at all.  I mentioned to them that I was on DR.com as I do at any restaurant I hear about on this site. 

If you do it as you're leaving, fine, great to inform them about the site.

If you do it up front or, as it appears in this case, in the middle as part of a dispute or complaint, not fine.

Whether or not you intend to do it as a way to get better service or not is unimportant, the inference by the restaurant staff will be that you DID mention it with the intent to get better service.

It's an entirely different context than referrals for business.

PS - JG and DLB -- You can knock it off now. Take your personal squabbles to PMs. If you don't like what someone says and view it as an ad hominem attack report the post to Don and he'll delete as he sees fit.

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The way NCPinDC was attacked is pretty lame.

while i might not be as articulate as some; i feel that this is a forum to talk about food and restaurants. and thee difference of opinions is what makes it great.

and what makes restaurants great is when a customer does EXACTLY what NCPinDC did, which was discuss his/her problems with the people AT the restaurant DURING the meal. and allowing the restaurant to deal with the problem/issue accordingly.

leave NCPinDC alone for the love of god. so what, NCPinDC mentions DR.com to Meshelle. Most people here are guilty of the same freakin thing....i just cant believe the intolerance.

TSK. TSK. TSK.

PS. In my life I am guilty of comparing things to one another. it is not because we are unable to recognize the uniqueness in something; but i believe it is to articulate what one cannot put in words, or provide a frame of reference.

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The way  NCPinDC was attacked is pretty lame.

while i might not be as articulate as some; i feel that this is a forum to talk about food and restaurants. and thee difference of opinions is what makes it great.

and what makes restaurants great is when a customer does EXACTLY what NCPinDC did, which was discuss his/her problems with the people AT the restaurant DURING the meal. and allowing the restaurant to deal with the problem/issue accordingly.

leave NCPinDC alone for the love of god. so what, NCPinDC mentions DR.com to Meshelle. Most people here are guilty of the same freakin thing....i just cant believe the intolerance.

TSK. TSK. TSK.

PS. In my life I am guilty of comparing things to one another. it is not because we are unable to recognize the uniqueness in something; but i believe it is to articulate what one cannot put in words, or provide a frame of reference.

Well put Jonathan. You would think someone's puppy got run over by some of the reactions.
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The way  NCPinDC was attacked is pretty lame.

while i might not be as articulate as some; i feel that this is a forum to talk about food and restaurants. and thee difference of opinions is what makes it great.

and what makes restaurants great is when a customer does EXACTLY what NCPinDC did, which was discuss his/her problems with the people AT the restaurant DURING the meal. and allowing the restaurant to deal with the problem/issue accordingly.

leave NCPinDC alone for the love of god. so what, NCPinDC mentions DR.com to Meshelle. Most people here are guilty of the same freakin thing....i just cant believe the intolerance.

TSK. TSK. TSK.

PS. In my life I am guilty of comparing things to one another. it is not because we are unable to recognize the uniqueness in something; but i believe it is to articulate what one cannot put in words, or provide a frame of reference.

Intolerance?! Hmmm, I guess we are not allowed our opinion. If you look back at some of the posts we did not agree with her using a reference to this site in the way she did. It sure looks like she was using it as leverage. While some responses were snarky that she even complained, which is not the issue, why mention this site at all?

And I really hope that many people are not using references to this site as an vieled threat when there are service or food issues.

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This came up on E-gullet a few years back. The thought of mentioning DR.com in any manner seems rather icky to me. Having taken 10's of thousands of reservations while managing restaurants, generally the only people who told me how or why they were in my establishment were looking for special treatment.

"We're friends with the owner"

"Mr. (insert regular customer name here) sent us"

etc. etc. And more often than not, the person referenced couldn't have cared less that they were in my establishment.

The internet is a different ball game, and I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that implicit in a statement like "I post on Don Rockwell" is "so if you screw something up I'm going to tell the world"

That being said, NCPinDC comments regarding her visit to Eve shouldn't have gotten anyones hackles up. She caght a great restaurant at an off moment. That happens.

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Intolerance?!  Hmmm, I guess we are not allowed our opinion.  If you look back at some of the posts we did not agree with her using a reference to this site in the way she did.  It sure looks like she was using it as leverage.  While some responses were snarky that she even complained, which is not the issue, why mention this site at all?

And I really hope that many people are not using references to this site as an vieled threat when there are service or food issues.

At the risk of prolonging the agony, I don't think that was the issue. At issue was that they felt they had waited a long time for service and hadn't gotten it.

If mentioning dr.com is a cardinal sin, then I guess I'm as guilty as anyone. I will tell a waitperson or staff member "I read about this restaurant on DR.com, and it's just as I expected." I don't say that a place is good or bad, I just say I read about it. I generally do that at the end of a meal so I don't want/need/expect anything gratis. I'm just saying that I came with a set of expectations and they were met. If they're not met, I say something to the manager/owner/waitperson/whomever and don't mention DR at all. There have been times when I've been disappointed and said so. There have also been a lot more where I was overwhelmed with the food and the service (a good example was the Passage to India dinner...the food and service were outstanding and I said so to both Monica and to the chef).

There are times here where people act as if someone has gored their own personal ox and the reaction can be a bit over the top. (I'm hardly one to complain, my own reactions are a bit extreme at times and I know it), but I think a lot of people need to count to 10 and then take a deep breath and relax. The world (nor Restaurant Eve) are going to end in 30 minutes. Life goes on...(insert favorite cliche here)...

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This came up on E-gullet a few years back. The thought of mentioning DR.com in any manner seems rather icky to me. Having taken 10's of thousands of reservations while managing restaurants, generally the only people who told me how or why they were in my establishment were looking for special treatment.

"We're friends with the owner"

"Mr. (insert regular customer name here) sent us"

etc. etc. And more often than not, the person referenced couldn't have cared less that they were in my establishment.

The internet is a different ball game, and I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that implicit in a statement like "I post on Don Rockwell" is "so if you screw something up I'm going to tell the world"

That being said, NCPinDC comments regarding her visit to Eve shouldn't have gotten anyones hackles up. She caght a great restaurant at an off moment. That happens.

My sentiments exactly.
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The whole Eve thing reminds me of the classic Washington tactic of trying to discredit a larger point by seizing on a smaller point to discredit the messenger.

To wit:

Someone has a substandard meal at Eve and posts about it. Eve defenders spring into action, asserting that the person with the bad experience clearly didn't know what they were doing, violated protocal, were unreasonable in their expectations etc. When this approach failed in the face of the facts, people then seized on a sub-bullet -- whether or nor one is allowed to mention their affiliation with DR -- in a further attempt to discredit the victim's original criticism.

It's neither fair nor pretty, but focusing on that minor point effectively shifts the debate away from Eve onto the poster. Unfortunately, it brings a bad sandbox mentality to DR; makes the accusers look whiny; and drags out a debate that I'm sure Eve would like to see go away.

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Okay, I've tried to keep my mouth shut about this, and I realize Don is going to hate me even more after this post, and probably even suspend me, not to mention this post will probably only exist for a few minutes but...

Isn't this exactly what the less senior member was criticized for doing in the Eve thread and what all that debate is about?  Letting on that one is a dr.com poster and expecting better service (not that that was her intention)?  How is PMing (i.e., letting it be known you are a dr.com poster) and having strings pulled (getting better service) then not just as wrong?  Because Mark Slater is now endorsing it?

Yes, because he's endorsing it. A representative of the restaurant is encouraging people to identify themselves in advance. What is wrong with this? He isn't singling out people; he's offering it to everyone.

This seems vastly different to me than when someone brings up dr.com out of the blue expecting something. Am I missing something here?

Cheers,

Rocks.

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This seems vastly different to me than when someone brings up dr.com out of the blue expecting something.  Am I missing something here?

Cheers,

Rocks.

Not really. But I think that for some reason, there's a presumption building here that mentioning dr.com=I want gimmes or I deserve better. And, for some, that might be true. But I think it needs to be recognized that there are quite a number of people, myself included, who mention dr.com with that being the furthest thing from their mind.

When I mention dr.com, it's never for gimmes. But I do mention it because I find it's an opportunity to immediately establish some level of common ground and common interest between myself and the staff. To me, it's nothing more than an entry point into such things as "hey, tell me where the chef sources his fish" or "what's cool about working here" or "everyone is raving about your tasting menu, tell me more about it."

Can these things be asked without mentioning dr.com? Sure. But I think that by mentioning it you're perhaps showing that you take their work, their artistry, their efforts, perhaps more seriously than the average bear. And at the same time have a greater appreciation for their work.

Now, is this defined as special treatment? I hope not. And I, for one, appreciate having that level of common ground with restaurant staff. It's opened up a whole new level of social interaction and friendships for me with people in the industry I probably would not have become friendly with because we didn't know we each shared that common passion. dr.com is almost like being able to say/show, to some silly extent, that "hey, we're schooled in similar crafts." There's camaraderie in that. But nothing that decent people should take advantage of.

I just think this is a viewpoint that hasn't been explored on this obviously contentious subject. If this isn't making sense, of if there is something I've written here that can be construed in a way I didn't mean, please forgive me. It's late. I'm tired. And I'll correct it tomorrow.

ETA: this has nothing to do with Citronelle and probably belongs in a different thread.

Edited by CrescentFresh
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The funniest or most blatant or most appalling scene happened last year in a very small restaurant in Manhattan. The customer had a gripe. When the argument with the restaurant hadn't tilted in his favor to his liking he shouted at the restaurant mangager in full ear-shot of all the other guests "I'm a blogger! I'll write about this!!". His website is called Opinionated About. He sure wrote about it, but didn't get much sympathy.

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How timely - in light of the maelstrom going on (in the Agraria thread) about what we should/shouldn't say about a restaurant and how much detail, interpretation, opinion to offer, perhaps we should be ranked according to our expertise and allowed to discuss only restaurants within categories matching our expertise.

So says a Washington Post cartoon today:

http://news.yahoo.com/comics/theflyingmccoys

Now, when is the geoduck dinner? and to those who we will have the pleasure of meeting on Friday, all I can say is "Aux armes, citoyens!" It was probably easier to get into the Bastille than into RTS, though I hear the food wasn't much to write home about. :unsure:

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On foodie blogs and websites, the ability to eat and type is the only qualification necessary to become a Restaurant Critic.

David Hagedorn

David,

This was my favorite line from your post. Your fatal error in responding to Chica Grace's report was not plastering your missive with smiley faces. :unsure:

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David,

This was my favorite line from your post. Your fatal error in responding to Chica Grace's report was not plastering your missive with smiley faces. :unsure:

I hope I'm typing my response correctly, Mark. If I get it wrong, I will apparently meet with bodily harm.

I felt the love here, indeed. ;) I see now that I went the wrong way down a one way street here. B) I understand now that negative reviews are nothing more than mere harmless remarks :D , it was unprofessional of me raise the issue of accountability :P , and that I type like an ass*ole :D .

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I hope I'm typing my response correctly, Mark. If I get it wrong, I will apparently meet with bodily harm.

I felt the love here, indeed. :unsure: I see now that I went the wrong way down a one way street here. :P I understand now that negative reviews are nothing more than mere harmless remarks :D , it was unprofessional of me raise the issue of accountability ;) , and that I type like an ass*ole B) .

Wimp.

I'm starting a new thread: Criticizing the Critics of the Critc.

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Shogun, that was cute, but David Hagedorn isn't just "some guy" who "write(s) pretty well." I think the dude has earned his right to address these issues without a pat on the head from us. :unsure:

And you're a young man with too much time on his hands.

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Meh. We're all 'some guy'. Beauty of the Internet.

Unfiltered expression is bad for the ruling class. Formal hierarchies are the only guarantee of truth and insight. When we take the Internet back from the masses, radicals like you will be shot.

Signed,

Time-Warner-AOL-Disney-Google-Microsft-Apple

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Unfiltered expression is bad for the ruling class. Formal hierarchies are the only guarantee of truth and insight. When we take the Internet back from the masses, radicals like you will be shot.

Signed,

Time-Warner-AOL-Disney-Google-Microsft-Apple

You just want his beat...

Unfiltered expression is fab. Saying it has consequences, not so fab?

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Unfiltered expression is bad for the ruling class. Formal hierarchies are the only guarantee of truth and insight. When we take the Internet back from the masses, radicals like you will be shot.

There's some site of which this reminds me.

If only I could recall what it was.....

:unsure:

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David:

My problem with your response was that Ms. Grace DID give specifics -- she didn't just say "the food sucks, don't go" but, instead, gave precise reasons for her negative response to her meal.

I don't happen to have shared her negative experience, but I can see it happening. As mentioned ad nauseum, this is a new restaurant that has been beset with difficulties and that has not had a chance yet to recover.

In short, I thought that Ms. Grace's post was polite and to the point, if not enthusiastic.

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