Red Light Cameras vs. Speed Cameras

[DonRocks]

I hope I'm reading this in reverse.

Are people really rejoicing over the ability to run red lights vs. getting off while driving 38 under Washington Circle?

If this is true, drivers have a really *wrong* perspective.

I'm all *for* the elimination of speeding cameras because they're often set up in the easiest places to speed.

On the other hand, there's almost *never* a good excuse to run a red light (rush-hour gridlock being a possible exception).

Why? Because it's a *deliberate act* almost every time.

"Red Light Cams Fade As Speed Cams Get Green Light" by David Porter on wtop.com

Okay, so, I'll start crawling along the streets of DC, and will floor it every time I come across a stale orange light. Much safer, right?

I've always been for *more* red-light cameras; less speed cameras, and I can't believe I just read this.

Not sure if the powers that be know this, but when you run a red light, that usually means, by definition, that the other light is green, and you're heading into an intersection with two cars moving towards each other, perpendicularly, sometimes with one having the pedal floored.

And it's the car that ran the red light who usually T-boned the other since it's the one with the pedal floored. What am I missing here?

Elizabeth? Dave?

[Josh]

How about slow down, follow the speed limit, and stop at red lights (and stop signs) when you're driving in the District?  Can that really be so hard to do?

[porcupine]

What am I missing here?

Elizabeth?

The fact that people are stupid and laws are often made to placate them rather than to actually accomplish anything.  I'm thinking of security lines at airports, too - really, the security checks they do are little more than theater designed to make people feel safe.

How about slow down, follow the speed limit, and stop at red lights (and stop signs) when you're driving in the District?  Can that really be so hard to do?

Well said.

...however, not realistic.  As Rocks said, some of those speed cameras are in ridiculous places.  Seriously, if your car gains 4 miles per hour because it's going downhill and you aren't riding the brakes, in a place where it's physically very difficult for a pedestrian to be and there are physical barriers between you and oncoming traffic, wtf does that matter?  [K St under Washington Circle]

How often have you seen a driver doing something truly stupid (dangerous) and not get caught, while a camera tags someone for an infraction that realistically makes no difference?  [rhetorical question]

[Josh]

...however, not realistic.  As Rocks said, some of those speed cameras are in ridiculous places.  Seriously, if your car gains 4 miles per hour because it's going downhill and you aren't riding the brakes, in a place where it's physically very difficult for a pedestrian to be and there are physical barriers between you and oncoming traffic, wtf does that matter?  [K St under Washington Circle]

I haven't heard of anyone getting a ticket for going less than 5 mph over the limit...

[lperry]

...however, not realistic.  As Rocks said, some of those speed cameras are in ridiculous places.  Seriously, if your car gains 4 miles per hour because it's going downhill and you aren't riding the brakes, in a place where it's physically very difficult for a pedestrian to be and there are physical barriers between you and oncoming traffic, wtf does that matter?  [K St under Washington Circle]

This argument is one that I have never really understood, although I am a fan of Mr. Weingarten's bureaucratic solution.  We know the cameras are there, there's a website that shows you exactly where you could be caught, and, IIRC, DC residents voted to keep them in place so it's the law.  It's like Waldo and Lawtey in Florida, or the big hill on Russell Road (where a dear friend has been ticketed three times.)  I know there's a speed trap, so I hit the brakes.  How is this anything other than a simple question of making one's life easier with minimal effort?  

[Al Dente]

If you don't have it already, I recommend the app Waze. It's a crowd-sourced GPS navigator that shows you where the cameras are.

I fully support the use of GTFO-of-the-left-lane cameras.

[aaronsinger]

My problem with them is in the implementation of the cameras, not in having red-light cameras themselves. I remember reading an article about red-light cameras in Denver giving out more than half of their tickets to drivers who stopped over the white line, no matter if just a foot or an inch over. Even more disturbing are cases in Chicago and Florida where the timing of the lights was secretly changed in order to shorten yellow-light timing, which AIUI is illegal by federal DOT standards, not to mention making intersections more dangerous and accidents more likely. And even when the city of Chicago apologized for doing so, they refused to refund tickets issued under those false pretenses. Perhaps unsurprisingly in Chicago, the original contract doled out to the first company the city used for their cameras was a shady one. And the lobbyist from that company is now going prison on corruption charges.

When I lived in DC, I tried to avoid driving in the district I loathed it so much. I only drove out of necessity for errand-running, grocery shopping, etc. and on the weekends for pleasure if I wanted to take a ride somewhere. In general I much prefer to take public transit, when possible.

[ad.mich]

And it's the car that ran the red light who usually T-boned the other since it's the one with the pedal floored. What am I missing here?

Elizabeth? Dave?

That same Chicago Tribune study also found that while red light cameras decrease t-bone accidents, they cause such an increase in rear-ending accidents that the overal net is a small increase in total injury accidents.

Again, you can probably trace those shortened yellow light times to the rear-end collisions.

I'm with you in theory on red light cameras vs speed cameras, but the way they're operated is shady as hell and causes greater strain on a system that already needs an overhaul.  From DDOT directly via a 2013 GGW article:

The issue with the signal systems in DC is that there is typically insufficient in-house resources to update signal timing on a recurrent regular basis and it has been done through an outside contract city-wide every 4-6 years. ...

That issue is not unique to DDOT, rather it is a problem nationwide, there is money available for capital projects, but less resources available to operate and maintain the existing signals system (or even the new stuff once installed).

maybe they can take some of that sweet sweet speed camera money and address the change or two that might have occurred to traffic patterns in the last 6 years?

[DonRocks]

How about slow down, follow the speed limit, and stop at red lights (and stop signs) when you're driving in the District?  Can that really be so hard to do?

I would argue that it's humanly impossible to do (there isn't a driver in the world who can monitor their speed each-and-every second). And I'm willing to bet - without having searched - that I could find studies that show this.

Assuming this is true, deliberately putting speed cameras in places where drivers are most susceptible to speeding is immoral, and should be illegal. One possible solution is to put those radar warning signs up about 1/4 mile *before* the cameras - if the driver sees those, has the chance to correct their speed, and chooses not to slow down, then they deserve a ticket. I have *never* not slowed to speed when I've seen one of those incredibly useful reminder signs: I have absolutely no desire to "blitz through town" at 35 mph when the speed limit is 25.

This argument is one that I have never really understood, although I am a fan of Mr. Weingarten's bureaucratic solution.  We know the cameras are there, there's a website that shows you exactly where you could be caught, and, IIRC, DC residents voted to keep them in place so it's the law.  It's like Waldo and Lawtey in Florida, or the big hill on Russell Road (where a dear friend has been ticketed three times.)  I know there's a speed trap, so I hit the brakes.  How is this anything other than a simple question of making one's life easier with minimal effort?   

At the time of this writing, I know the location of exactly two speeding cameras in DC: K Street under Washington Circle, and MacArthur Blvd by the reservoir. Why? Because I've gotten one ticket at each place for precisely the reasons I state in this post. I was not trying to speed in either instance, and those places both "look and feel" like they should have a higher speed limit: a divided highway, and a wide-open four-lane road.. Where are the warning signs? And I'm not talking about standard speed limit signs which occur about every 15 seconds; I'm talking about "You're speed is [blink-blink-blink] 35 ... 33 ... 31 ... 28 ... 26 ... [/stops blinking] 25." I slow down every single time I see those within a matter of seconds, and would do so regardless of the potential for getting a ticket. These speed cameras are nothing more than speed traps and revenue producers, and they *know* it. As for monitoring a website that shows me where I could be caught, I have no desire to speed in DC the first place (there's no upside to it), and even less desire to drive around using a website to uncover locations of speed traps - why not just text while driving? But I am all for paintball enthusiasts practicing their skills - I first said that a few years ago as a joke; now I mean it, and I can't wait to hear the first story about it. I'm with Weingarten: If I thought there was a zero-percent chance of getting caught, I'd do it myself. And if you're blinking right now, not believing that Rockwell just said "he'd break the law if he could get away with it," my response is: You're absolutely correct - that's *exactly* what I just said: If I could wave a magic wand, and have every speed camera destroyed, I would do it right this second to prevent another unjust ticket from being issued. As for "breaking the law," Dred Scott was the law, and the law is an ass. Sometimes, you just have to abide by your own principles, and say, "By any means necessary."

[porcupine]

I know there's a speed trap, so I hit the brakes.  How is this anything other than a simple question of making one's life easier with minimal effort?  

In practice I agree with you.  In principal I am appalled by the whole thing.  That people believe this makes them safer?  Appalling.  That a government can profit off trapping its citizens?  Appalling.  That a citizen can be presumed guilty until proven innocent?  Beyond appalling.

Don't get me wrong, I am not defending breaking the law; nor am I making an argument that people should be allowed to drive as they will.

[lperry]

I understand the point of view that the cameras are neither fair nor effective, however, it is not going to change any time soon, and the bottom line is that it is a preventable problem.  I am reminded of a friend who got fired from a retail job for repeatedly checking for the strip in a $100 bill instead of using the marking pen, which was required by store policy.  She told me, "it's a stupid rule."  But it was the rule, and the consequence was preventable.  Why not prevent the consequence and stress, and if it is that important an issue to you, work through proper channels to get things changed?     

[Josh]

I just can't muster much sympathy on this topic.  Slowing traffic in urban settings saves lives.  The evidence suggests a big difference in pedestrian injury severity when the car is going 25 vs. 30 or 35 mph. Click.

And actually, there are warnings...DC mandated that zones with speed cameras post a yellow warning sign on the speed limit signs before you get to the camera.

[lovehockey]

On I-295 at the Naval Research Lab, drivers have been pretty much trained to slow down (northbound just before the exit, southbound after the exit), because of the presence of cameras for the past couple years.  Unless things have changed since I last drove on 295 before I went on vacation, northbound's camera isn't even there anymore and people still slow down.  The southbound camera is there.

Otherwise, I-295 is a motor speedway unless you get a speed-limit aficionado driving in the left lane.

[DonRocks]

And actually, there are warnings...DC mandated that zones with speed cameras post a yellow warning sign on the speed limit signs before you get to the camera.

This is new information to me, and good to hear.

Because it means that if I don't see the warnings, I can drive like a bat out of hell!

[Destruya]

Fun fact: running a red light in Virginia gives you no points on your license.  None.

Speeding 0-9 (which in itself is a way for a cop to just harass you if they feel like it), however, is three points.  And *any* speeding ticket stays on your record for five years, even if other infractions are struck in three or less.

There's a reason I call the VA State Police the VAStaPo, and the Vienna Police simply 'assholes.' =/

[DonRocks]

Paintball, anyone? 

Take a look at the map in that article, and tell me the cameras aren't skewed to Northeast and Southeast. Make a fist with your right hand, then extend your thumb and index finger, making a right angle between the two, then rotate your wrist internally (*) so that your index finger mimics the Northeast border, and your thumb mimics the Southeast border. That's where the cameras are clustered (**)

(*) Not responsible for any rotator cuff injuries.

(**) By any means necessary.

[lovehockey]

On I-295 at the Naval Research Lab, drivers have been pretty much trained to slow down (northbound just before the exit, southbound after the exit), because of the presence of cameras for the past couple years.  Unless things have changed since I last drove on 295 before I went on vacation, northbound's camera isn't even there anymore and people still slow down.  The southbound camera is there.

Otherwise, I-295 is a motor speedway unless you get a speed-limit aficionado driving in the left lane.

The northbound camera is back to temporarily slow drivers down.

[B.A.R.]

Isn't it about safety?

[DonRocks]

One man's vandal is another man's hero.