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Eggs and Pasta


Pool Boy

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Roberto set the standard and maintains it today in his Laboratorio. Tosca IS excellent. But Roberto's is as good as the best in Italy. Maestro is also outstanding (especially their lobster ravioli) but I believe the various pastas are more a part of the daily menu in the Lab with several always represented.

I disagree with this statement. The eggs are better in Italy and that alone, in the hands of a good chef, will make a surprisingly supple pasta.

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I disagree with this statement. The eggs are better in Italy and that alone, in the hands of a good chef, will make a surprisingly supple pasta.

Maybe you're kidding but, if you just chat up a few of the egg vendors at local farmers markets, I think you'd find some are producing eggs the equal of anywhere. We've used a few local farms for eggs. Quality is largely dependent on the breed and handling of layers and, of course, their diets. We must have an egg thread somewhere so won't type a lot more here on it.

It's DR.com hyperbole and outlandish statements! It's part of the fun.

Absolutely true. That was my thought also on the above but wasn't sure. Good stuff all.

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In my albeit limited experience, yes. The don't do GMO and Round-up bathed food for chickens there for one.

Ah, you're talking INDUSTRIAL (e.g., Tyson) eggs like you'd buy in Giant or Safeway. True. But there are a ton of regional options that aren't that at all. Robert Carwithen (Gettysburg and sells at Bethesda Farmers Market) and Tom the egg seller at DuPont are just two in the District but there are many other great options around MD and VA.

Relevant thread here:

http://www.donrockwell.com/index.php?/topic/2894-pasteurized-or-irradiated-eggs/

Good posts from Zora and Anna Blume among others as true today as when posted.

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Ah, you're talking INDUSTRIAL (e.g., Tyson) eggs like you'd buy in Giant or Safeway.

In other words, the good eggs in Italy are possibly better than the bad eggs in the US, not that the good eggs in Italy are better than the good eggs in the US--an unexceptionable but remarkably pointless observation, and not actually what Pool Boy wrote, when he agreed that every egg in Italy is better than any egg in the US. Anyone is free to believe that, just as anyone is free to believe anything they like.

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My point was that, in a very broad sense, eggs in Italy, overall, are better than eggs in the USA.  Are there great eggs in the USA? Yes. Are there great eggs in Italy? Yes. Arguing which is the best of the best is pointless, but arguably fun, and ultimately personal.

I would suggest that it is easier to get really good eggs in Italy than it is in the USA, because, while people interested in good food, like most of the people on this site, are willing to search to find a solid source of great eggs, the masses get their eggs from the grocery store (as I most often do), and do not pay attention even to what kind of eggs they are buying. They grab the carton of eggs and move on their way.  I mean, I don't go to a farmers market with any real regularity. It is more of an event for me, because there isn't a good one within a 10 minute drive from my house. If I make the effort, or find myself in the situation (and remember to!) where it is easy for me to grab some great eggs, I do!!

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You're right, it's fun to discuss...

But the presumption that the modern day restauranteur paying $50/Sq ft rent, doing 500k buildouts, hiring celebrity chefs are going to skimp on eggs to save a few bucks, and ruining their fresh pasta seems a little pre-decent restaurant era DC (or choose your own urban area).

I would be very surprised if the reason Fiola doesn't hold a candle to any random diner in Italy is because they chose factory farmed eggs.

But, as a science based person, I'd be very interested in randomized controlled trials on a lot of this stuff. Curious to know what people would be able to ascertain if both the cooks and customers were blinded to ingredient quality, and the ambience remained the same. I wonder if 5% of people would be able to tell the difference, if completely otherwise blinded. Preparation, environment, temperatures, plating effect taste so drastically. There is a randomized trial on wine - where experts are placed in a dark room, the temps of the wines are brought to the same degree, and experts cannot even tell white vs red, much less vintages and grapes. The combination of senses and the neuroscience behind it is totally fascinating ...

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We've had a similar discussion before, but farmer's market-eggs have a much deeper-colored yolk than store-bought eggs do, and I think people concluded it was because of the feed, not because they were free-range chickens.

I remember the last time I had a tasting menu at CityZen, one of the courses was scrambled egg, served in shell, with truffles, and you could have made a case for that being the "course of the night." Food just does not get any better than that - it's the same with a perfect piece of bread with real butter, or even a ripe peach.

Since this thread was last active, we've had a *major* mid-to-upscale Italian renaissance in DC, and there are countless places that have good house-made pasta now (which is actually what this thread is about: which restaurants have good house-made pasta) - you could rattle off five without trying; a dozen with minimal effort; probably twenty if you researched.

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My point was that, in a very broad sense, eggs in Italy, overall, are better than eggs in the USA. Are there great eggs in the USA? Yes. Are there great eggs in Italy? Yes. Arguing which is the best of the best is pointless, but arguably fun, and ultimately personal.

I would suggest that it is easier to get really good eggs in Italy than it is in the USA, because, while people interested in good food, like most of the people on this site, are willing to search to find a solid source of great eggs, the masses get their eggs from the grocery store (as I most often do), and do not pay attention even to what kind of eggs they are buying. They grab the carton of eggs and move on their way. I mean, I don't go to a farmers market with any real regularity. It is more of an event for me, because there isn't a good one within a 10 minute drive from my house. If I make the effort, or find myself in the situation (and remember to!) where it is easy for me to grab some great eggs, I do!!

Totally agree. Also to a large extent with the few posts more recent than yours. Obvious point probably but, just as many on this site probably do tend to buy "better" eggs, produce and the rest than large-scale industrial, supermarket offerings, restaurants are the same. "Better" (and, yes, usually higher priced) places simply buy ingredients of higher quality from different sources. Rocks' CityZen example just above serves to illustrate that well.
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You're right, it's fun to discuss...

But the presumption that the modern day restauranteur paying $50/Sq ft rent, doing 500k buildouts, hiring celebrity chefs are going to skimp on eggs to save a few bucks, and ruining their fresh pasta seems a little pre-decent restaurant era DC (or choose your own urban area).

I would be very surprised if the reason Fiola doesn't hold a candle to any random diner in Italy is because they chose factory farmed eggs.

But, as a science based person, I'd be very interested in randomized controlled trials on a lot of this stuff. Curious to know what people would be able to ascertain if both the cooks and customers were blinded to ingredient quality, and the ambience remained the same. I wonder if 5% of people would be able to tell the difference, if completely otherwise blinded. Preparation, environment, temperatures, plating effect taste so drastically. There is a randomized trial on wine - where experts are placed in a dark room, the temps of the wines are brought to the same degree, and experts cannot even tell white vs red, much less vintages and grapes. The combination of senses and the neuroscience behind it is totally fascinating ...

Precisely!

One thing I'd love to know is if I could taste the difference between a generic factory farm egg versus a really quality egg. Ideally in similar circumstances - prepared the same way, where they are both the same freshness (again, that is not typically true of factory eggs versus quality eggs), especially when the yolk of one may be significantly more colorful (probably bordering on orange). I have no idea.

I would posit that fresh pasta, made with quality flour and quality eggs with no GMO crap or other carpool would taste, look and feel better than a fresh pasta made with lower quality versions. But I have no idea. Pasta made with great eggs with deep colored yolks make me happy and my brain makes me at least THINK it tastes better.

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We are not long on good Italian places in C'ville. I'd nominate two as worth considering. My favorite is Tavola http://tavolavino.com. Like Alley Light, it's another tiny spot, but it doesn't take reservations; go early or be prepared to hang at the bar, and enjoy the wine selection. The other good option is Bella's on W. Main, just across from the (Southern) train station. http://www.bellas-restaurant.com Bella's is in the family-style tradition: servings for two or four. Reservations are possible.

I *think* they may both make their own pasta in house. Many local places buy pasta from Jim Winecoff at Mona Lisa Pasta on Preston Avenue. Jim's place is s grocery with a kitchen. He serves soup, pizza, sandwiches, carry-out, and such. He caters. And he sells fresh pasta and sauce. If you need to blow into C'ville and make an instant Italian dinner for someone, you could get pasta cut to order, sauce, good local, bread, and wine all right there. We use his pasta at home several times s month.

We now return you to the DC channel....

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If you are really interested, you should read the "Pasta-Maker" chapter in Bill Buford's Heat. Eggs from free-range chickens fed a natural grain diet have less runny whites and, at least during the Italian spring and summer months, the yolk has a red cast to it. Burford learned pasta making from the same Italian woman who taught Mario Batali. She lived in the countryside and had access to fresh eggs from semi-feral chickens. Mario, to compensate for the poorer quality eggs he of necessity purchases for Babbo, compensates by adding extra yolks (3 eggs plus 4 yolks per pound of flour). He also adds salt and olive oil, which his former teacher never does because her eggs impart plenty of flavor on their own.

Alas, I don't believe the county would let me keep laying hens in my Silver Spring back yard.

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Precisely!

One thing I'd love to know is if I could taste the difference between a generic factory farm egg versus a really quality egg. Ideally in similar circumstances - prepared the same way, where they are both the same freshness (again, that is not typically true of factory eggs versus quality eggs), especially when the yolk of one may be significantly more colorful (probably bordering on orange). I have no idea.

I would posit that fresh pasta, made with quality flour and quality eggs with no GMO crap or other carpool would taste, look and feel better than a fresh pasta made with lower quality versions. But I have no idea. Pasta made with great eggs with deep colored yolks make me happy and my brain makes me at least THINK it tastes better.

When a given food item contains precisely two ingredients, as fresh pasta does, those two ingredients had better be good; I entirely agree there. But it's really not that difficult to find high-quality eggs in Washington; Whole Foods, whatever its drawbacks, carries some first-rate eggs. It's probably harder to find the best flour for pasta, which is "00" Italian flour. As to freshness, commercially packaged eggs are required to have a date stamp on the carton (or on the eggs). The date is expressed as a number representing the day of the year when the eggs were packaged, which I believe is generally two days or less after the eggs were laid. The date is a number from 001 (January 1) to 365 or 366 (December 31). I've had some obviously stale eggs from farmers' markets, for what that's worth.

As to the color of the yolk, I don't think it has much to do with the quality of the egg. In and around Lisbon, where I lived for a while, the eggs available in all the supermarkets had deep orange-colored yolks. I know nothing about Portuguese egg production practices, but I'd be very much surprised if those supermarket eggs weren't factory-farmed. They weren't particularly good, and the color of the yolks made for a really unappetizing home-made mayonnaise.

Fresh pasta is not difficult to make at home, and if you want it to be extra luscious and more deeply colored, add extra yolks to the whole eggs you use.

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But, as a science based person, I'd be very interested in randomized controlled trials on a lot of this stuff. 

Funny you should ask...Click

Spoiler alert: People can't tell the difference in taste between factory farmed and free-range organic. (Also, throwing around "GMO" as an indicator of quality or taste seems off.)

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When a given food item contains precisely two ingredients, as fresh pasta does, those two ingredients had better be good; I entirely agree there. But it's really not that difficult to find high-quality eggs in Washington; Whole Foods, whatever its drawbacks, carries some first-rate eggs. It's probably harder to find the best flour for pasta, which is "00" Italian flour. As to freshness, commercially packaged eggs are required to have a date stamp on the carton (or on the eggs). The date is expressed as a number representing the day of the year when the eggs were packaged, which I believe is generally two days or less after the eggs were laid. The date is a number from 001 (January 1) to 365 or 366 (December 31). I've had some obviously stale eggs from farmers' markets, for what that's worth.

As to the color of the yolk, I don't think it has much to do with the quality of the egg. In and around Lisbon, where I lived for a while, the eggs available in all the supermarkets had deep orange-colored yolks. I know nothing about Portuguese egg production practices, but I'd be very much surprised if those supermarket eggs weren't factory-farmed. They weren't particularly good, and the color of the yolks made for a really unappetizing home-made mayonnaise.

Fresh pasta is not difficult to make at home, and if you want it to be extra luscious and more deeply colored, add extra yolks to the whole eggs you use.

I believe yolk color is a function of the layer's diet. A more diverse and nutritious diet yields deeper, orange-colored yolks. No doubt if you compare them side by side, the difference is obvious. Besides the yolk color, the whites are firmer. And if you try frying, or even better poaching, a common supermarket egg and a high-quality, fresh farm egg, the appearance and taste difference is pretty apparent. We've actually done this.

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When a given food item contains precisely two ingredients, as fresh pasta does, those two ingredients had better be good; I entirely agree there. But it's really not that difficult to find high-quality eggs in Washington; Whole Foods, whatever its drawbacks, carries some first-rate eggs. It's probably harder to find the best flour for pasta, which is "00" Italian flour. As to freshness, commercially packaged eggs are required to have a date stamp on the carton (or on the eggs). The date is expressed as a number representing the day of the year when the eggs were packaged, which I believe is generally two days or less after the eggs were laid. The date is a number from 001 (January 1) to 365 or 366 (December 31). I've had some obviously stale eggs from farmers' markets, for what that's worth.

As to the color of the yolk, I don't think it has much to do with the quality of the egg. In and around Lisbon, where I lived for a while, the eggs available in all the supermarkets had deep orange-colored yolks. I know nothing about Portuguese egg production practices, but I'd be very much surprised if those supermarket eggs weren't factory-farmed. They weren't particularly good, and the color of the yolks made for a really unappetizing home-made mayonnaise.

Fresh pasta is not difficult to make at home, and if you want it to be extra luscious and more deeply colored, add extra yolks to the whole eggs you use.

I knew about the date stamp thing, thanks. Good tip!

Funny you should ask...Click

Spoiler alert: People can't tell the difference in taste between factory farmed and free-range organic. (Also, throwing around "GMO" as an indicator of quality or taste seems off.)

I disagree - getting an egg from a chicken raised on feed that includes corn or other genetically modified BS is a serious negative in my book. I do not want an egg raised on roundup resistant corn in my diet if I can help it.

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I believe yolk color is a function of the layer's diet. A more diverse and nutritious diet yields deeper, orange-colored yolks. No doubt if you compare them side by side, the difference is obvious. Besides the yolk color, the whites are firmer. And if you try frying, or even better poaching, a common supermarket egg and a high-quality, fresh farm egg, the appearance and taste difference is pretty apparent. We've actually done this.

This article, and others Mr. Google can uncover, makes it pretty clear that yolk color is deliberately manipulated by egg farmers for almost entirely cosmetic purposes, and is not an indicator of how diverse and nutritious a hen's diet is. Here is another interesting piece.

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This article, and others Mr. Google can uncover, makes it pretty clear that yolk color is deliberately manipulated by egg farmers for almost entirely cosmetic purposes, and is not an indicator of how diverse and nutritious a hen's diet is. Here is another interesting piece.

Of course true that yolk color can be manipulated. At the same time, honest farmers who do feed chickens a varied diet of different vegetables and grains tend to end up with more deeply colored yolks by default from the beta carotene and other substances in such foods, flax seed to boost omega3s and the like.

At the end of the day, I think it an issue of the two Ts: Taste and Trust.

On Trust, the best way (for whatever minority who care as I know most won't go to such lengths and of course that's fine) to determine how egg laying hens are raised is to talk to farmers, get to know them and visit their farms. It is increasingly becoming a virtual ante that to sell animal products, producers are expected to be transparent in answering questions and welcoming visits. Sure, some are dishonest as is always the case but generally very possible to suss out in choosing producers.

On Taste, the bottom line has to be if you like it, it's the right answer for you. We've had some fun (sad, I know) doing taste tests of eggs from a couple of different supermarkets and several different farms. I think many who have or would do this might agree that better quality farm practices lead to better-tasting eggs which are also more nutritious.

FWIW, I think both of the articles you've cited support this view. The Modern Farmer (a good magazine btw) is more substantive but both make clear it's not black and white...or yellow and orange. :-)

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This article, and others Mr. Google can uncover, makes it pretty clear that yolk color is deliberately manipulated by egg farmers for almost entirely cosmetic purposes, and is not an indicator of how diverse and nutritious a hen's diet is. Here is another interesting piece.

Good reference articles especially like the yolk color fans.

Poly face Farms eggs are still my local favorite, usually available March to November. Otherwise have tried many places during the off season which are definitely a cut above the regularly distributed eggs at chain supermarkets. These days get eggs from Maple Avenue Market who have a small farm.

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It doesn't matter to me about the taste of eggs at all. Any egg prepared without salt is going to taste pretty bland. Eggs have many other uses in cooking, other than taste, so Kenji's test is irrelevant to me. It's funny how the talk is all about the yolk. It should be more about the whites. I avoid industrially-produced eggs sold at the supermarket at all costs--just as I don't buy meat at the supermarket, either.  I buy eggs from a farmer in Pennsylvania (who travels down here every other week during the winter).

The color of yolks can be manipulated, I will grant that. But, how one can manipulate whites is another matter, and farmers market eggs have whites that are completely superior to supermarket eggs. You just have to look at them. It may well be the age factor. Nonetheless, organically, humanely grown eggs have whites that are much less "watery" and are much easier to whip. Plus, I don't have to worry about the welfare of the chicken who laid them in the first place.

Yes, there is a cost factor. I pay anywhere from $4.50 to $5/dozen for these eggs. But, I look at it in the same way I look at whole chicken sales at Mr. Safeway--I am well aware of just where those 39-cent/lb. chickens come from and I will not patronize Mr. Perdue or Mr. Tyson. And, yes, I am well aware that I can afford to make such a choice when others can't.

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I disagree - getting an egg from a chicken raised on feed that includes corn or other genetically modified BS is a serious negative in my book. I do not want an egg raised on roundup resistant corn in my diet if I can help it.

I ask this sincerely: Why?  Is it the corporate association?  If a local farmer raised free-range birds in the most humane way possible, but included GMO corn in the feed, would you avoid his eggs?

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You're right, it's fun to discuss...

But the presumption that the modern day restauranteur paying $50/Sq ft rent, doing 500k buildouts, hiring celebrity chefs are going to skimp on eggs to save a few bucks, and ruining their fresh pasta seems a little pre-decent restaurant era DC (or choose your own urban area).

I would be very surprised if the reason Fiola doesn't hold a candle to any random diner in Italy is because they chose factory farmed eggs.

But, as a science based person, I'd be very interested in randomized controlled trials on a lot of this stuff. Curious to know what people would be able to ascertain if both the cooks and customers were blinded to ingredient quality, and the ambience remained the same. I wonder if 5% of people would be able to tell the difference, if completely otherwise blinded. Preparation, environment, temperatures, plating effect taste so drastically. There is a randomized trial on wine - where experts are placed in a dark room, the temps of the wines are brought to the same degree, and experts cannot even tell white vs red, much less vintages and grapes. The combination of senses and the neuroscience behind it is totally fascinating ...

please post a link to this study

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I ask this sincerely: Why?  Is it the corporate association?  If a local farmer raised free-range birds in the most humane way possible, but included GMO corn in the feed, would you avoid his eggs?

No, it is not the corporate association. And I would absolutely avoid eggs from that farmers chickens. I prefer to avoid GMO stuff in my diet if I can help it. That is my choice. You can make your own choice.

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I, of course, speak only for myself and don't even know Pool Boy. And, I imagine we have a GMO topic somewhere but not sure.

From everything I've read and learned, any health-related harm or benefits of GMO foods are still somewhat unknown. Or, at least, there isn't yet enough research or scientific consensus though there are studies and articles supporting pro and con views.

I strongly support much stronger labeling laws believing all people should simply have the right to be informed and make their own choices based on accurate information. This includes GMO since we don't yet fully understand the science behind it.

And, I also don't know Simul Parikh but don't think his post referenced a specific study so much as an interest in what a rigorous one might show.

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No, it is not the corporate association. And I would absolutely avoid eggs from that farmers chickens. I prefer to avoid GMO stuff in my diet if I can help it. That is my choice. You can make your own choice.

Of course.  I am just curious as to the reasons people choose to avoid/support certain products.

I, of course, speak only for myself and don't even know Pool Boy. And, I imagine we have a GMO topic somewhere but not sure.

From everything I've read and learned, any health-related harm or benefits of GMO foods are still somewhat unknown. Or, at least, there isn't yet enough research or scientific consensus though there are studies and articles supporting pro and con views.

I strongly support much stronger labeling laws believing all people should simply have the right to be informed and make their own choices based on accurate information. This includes GMO since we don't yet fully understand the science behind it.

And, I also don't know Simul Parikh but don't think his post referenced a specific study so much as an interest in what a rigorous one might show.

As another "science-based person"  (medicine really), I strongly disagree that we don't fully understand the science behind genetic modification.  The science is actually very much understood, and used in all manner of ways outside of food and agriculture.  Most of the new wonder drugs that are being produced are in one way or the other products of genetic modification.

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As another "science-based person" (medicine really), I strongly disagree that we don't fully understand the science behind genetic modification. The science is actually very much understood, and used in all manner of ways outside of food and agriculture. Most of the new wonder drugs that are being produced are in one way or the other products of genetic modification.

Without engaging in a battle of backgrounds since not my intent and probably not productive, would just say the following.

Your view is, of course, very valid. Many others agree, from scientific researchers to lay people.

My point is simply that the other side of whichever coin (simplifying, the GMO-good or GMO-bad divide) is very much out there as well, also supported by substantive research and less supported opinion.

I think fair to say a consensus on GMO foods as related to health is not as locked down as say, the health dangers of chain smoking. You may disagree there also and, if so, of course fine.

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No, it is not the corporate association. And I would absolutely avoid eggs from that farmers chickens. I prefer to avoid GMO stuff in my diet if I can help it. That is my choice. You can make your own choice.

Good luck with that.  It's estimated that about 90% of food crops in the U.S. are GMOs.

Without engaging in a battle of backgrounds since not my intent and probably not productive, would just say the following.

Your view is, of course, very valid. Many others agree, from scientific researchers to lay people.

My point is simply that the other side of whicever coin (simplifying, the GMO-good or GMO-bad divide) is very much out there as well, also supported by substantive research and less supported opinion.

I think fair to say a consensus on GMO foods as related to health is not as locked down as say, the health dangers of chain smoking. You may disagree there also and, if so, of course fine.

Not true, and the biggest study thus far indicating problems has been rescinded.  Part of it was bad science, part of it was a problem with the review process, and part of it was more than a bit of bias on the part of the major research scientist.  That's a lot of parts to a perfect storm fueled by public fears, not unlike the anti-vacccine "debate." You can also link to a number of solid studies in the same article if you would like to read more.

If you want to be upset about GMOs, knock yourself out, but consider worrying about something we know is an issue, like environmental impacts. You won't be able to get around eating them.

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Good luck with that.  It's estimated that about 90% of food crops in the U.S. are GMOs.

Not true, and the biggest study thus far indicating problems has been rescinded.  Part of it was bad science, part of it was a problem with the review process, and part of it was more than a bit of bias on the part of the major research scientist.  That's a lot of parts to a perfect storm fueled by public fears, not unlike the anti-vacccine "debate." You can also link to a number of solid studies in the same article if you would like to read more.

If you want to be upset about GMOs, knock yourself out, but consider worrying about something we know is an issue, like environmental impacts. You won't be able to get around eating them.

  

Thanks for these. Hadn't seen either before and much more interested in learning (and evolving) than any pre-conceived agenda.

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Having grown up eating fresh eggs from the farm I was raised on, I will honestly say I don't notice much difference between that and what I buy, I do buy organic cage free eggs only because it is a little more humane, not that chickens are that smart, but none the less.

I do notice a huge difference in fruits, vegetables, and DAIRY products, some meats, but never really tasted the difference in eggs, but it could be just me.

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Good luck with that. It's estimated that about 90% of food crops in the U.S.

...

If you want to be upset about GMOs, knock yourself out, but consider worrying about something we know is an issue, like environmental impacts. You won't be able to get around eating them.

Just on the 90% figure, and this is an honest question versus an unchangeable view...it's tough to really ascertain what that means, at least for me. The article didn't say "90% of food crops." Rather, it says this:

"About 90 percent of commodity crops used in the nation's food supply, including soybeans, sugar beets, and feed corn, are genetically engineered. They are known as genetically modified organisms, or GMOs."

We don't know (from the article) the source for that number. Nor how "commodity crops," ostensibly a subset of all "food crops" are defined.

I have read quite a bit about the US soybean industry and how it is virtually impossible to find non-GMO because patents for the modified seed have been granted to Monsanto. But, in thinking about local farms, I'm not sure the "commodity crops" to which that figure refers are relevant? Surely, locally grown corn isn't the same as "feed corn" (farm dependent, of course). My sense, and I'm no expert here, is that much of this debate, in all of its forms beyond GMO, is about industrial agriculture versus smaller scale, regional farming.

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This is more consistent with what I know secondarily. Detailed and won't be so surprising to people who favor Michael Pollan and the bevy of food films targeting "BigAg" in recent years.

This strikes me as a key paragraph as related to current food policy issues (not just GMO):

"The history of food processing is littered with ingredients that were initially presented as safer and more desirable, yet subsequently outed as the opposite. Hydrogenated vegetable oils, or margarine, were actively promoted as healthier than the natural saturated fats in butter. High fructose corn syrup, once marketed as preferable to sugar, has now been identified as a key driver of the obesity epidemic in the US."

Also the definition of terms at the end which basically support the view that current labeling is more or less useless for consumers.

Will spend some time reading the lperry citations later.

FWIW, this is all great stuff in my book--this discussion that is. Interesting and educational as well as important.

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Just on the 90% figure, and this is an honest question versus an unchangeable view...it's tough to really ascertain what that means, at least for me. The article didn't say "90% of food crops." Rather, it says this:

"About 90 percent of commodity crops used in the nation's food supply, including soybeans, sugar beets, and feed corn, are genetically engineered. They are known as genetically modified organisms, or GMOs."

We don't know (from the article) the source for that number. Nor how "commodity crops," ostensibly a subset of all "food crops" are defined.

I have read quite a bit about the US soybean industry and how it is virtually impossible to find non-GMO because patents for the modified seed have been granted to Monsanto. But, in thinking about local farms, I'm not sure the "commodity crops" to which that figure refers are relevant? Surely, locally grown corn isn't the same as "feed corn" (farm dependent, of course). My sense, and I'm no expert here, is that much of this debate, in all of its forms beyond GMO, is about industrial agriculture versus smaller scale, regional farming

Perhaps not.   Assumptions that all small-scale, local farming is somehow "better" than large-scale operations may not be entirely accurate and/or fair.  If you want to know where your food comes from, ask the person who grew it about the source of the seeds, and then follow up to find out if those came from Monsanto, Seminis, or another subsidiary.

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Perhaps not. Assumptions that all small-scale, local farming is somehow "better" than large-scale operations may not be entirely accurate and/or fair. If you want to know where your food comes from, ask the person who grew it about the source of the seeds, and then follow up to find out if those came from Monsanto, Seminis, or another subsidiary.

Let's at least quote sources and each other fairly? I didn't write anything judgmental or conclusive about "all small-scale, local farming." Actually, I wrote no conclusion and purposefully qualified what I did write with "farm dependent, of course"

Your link is to the Monsanto site. No problem with that and good to at least consider that view. At the same time, I've posted here in the past about visiting farms and asking direct questions as you rightly advise. Unless there is new data or information of which I'm not aware, the unavoidability of GMO for soybeans is in a special class, different from most other produce, due to legislation. I may be wrong--always possible and happens regularly :-)--but that NatGeo piece doesn't do a great job of supporting the point I think you're making.

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Perhaps not.   Assumptions that all small-scale, local farming is somehow "better" than large-scale operations may not be entirely accurate and/or fair.  If you want to know where your food comes from, ask the person who grew it about the source of the seeds, and then follow up to find out if those came from Monsanto, Seminis, or another subsidiary.

Let's at least quote sources and each other fairly? I didn't write anything judgmental or conclusive about "all small-scale, local farming." Actually, I wrote no conclusion and purposefully qualified what I did write with "farm dependent, of course"

Awesome! Two heavyweights in a potential slugfest!

<popping corn>

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Let's at least quote sources and each other fairly? I didn't write anything judgmental or conclusive about "all small-scale, local farming." Actually, I wrote no conclusion and purposefully qualified what I did write with "farm dependent, of course"

Your link is to the Monsanto site. No problem with that and good to at least consider that view. At the same time, I've posted here in the past about visiting farms and asking direct questions as you rightly advise. Unless there is new data or information of which I'm not aware, the unavoidability of GMO for soybeans is in a special class, different from most other produce, due to legislation. I may be wrong--always possible and happens regularly :-)--but that NatGeo piece doesn't do a great job of supporting the point I think you're making.

I seem to have hit a nerve, but, as usual, I don't understand why.  I was responding to the ideas in bold, and the link applies to the assumption about locally grown corn, while my comment beyond the link applies to the concept of big ag vs. small farming.  Take it as you will.  Sorry Don, nothing to slug.  Make sure you know the source of that popcorn.

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Hey, what happened to the eggs and pasta?

My scientific knowledge wouldn't half fill a thimble, but haven't we been doing genetic engineering for a really long time? Hybridization and selective breeding are slower methods than modern direct modification of genes, but still result in genetic changes. Since selective breeding resulted in my beautiful Irish terrier, I have to say I'm for it.

Which reminds me of a joke I heard on NPR a few years ago. What was the biggest biology experiment of all time? It was when Luther Burbank crossed the Rocky Mountains with his wife.

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I seem to have hit a nerve, but, as usual, I don't understand why.  I was responding to the ideas in bold, and the link applies to the assumption about locally grown corn, while my comment beyond the link applies to the concept of big ag vs. small farming.  Take it as you will.  Sorry Don, nothing to slug.  Make sure you know the source of that popcorn.

Agree no "slugfest" from my POV. And, no "nerve" hit here. Just a discussion/debate. I won't characterize motivation or temperament since I can't know that. Just what's written.

Your comment about big Ag v. small farming had "all" as an inserted modifier. That obviously changed the meaning so just wanted to correct that.

As for corn versus all foods, absolutely agree on the Monsanto link. But, through the last several posts, you've commented on GMO as applied to all foods so was simply reacting to that. The NatGeo article which had a "90%" figure in it was about something more narrow than what you had interpreted and was without any sourcing.

Maybe that clears up my view? Honestly not entirely sure about GMO foods so very open to any and all well-supported views. That's all. Those different views, so long as civil and supported, are what make any discussion interesting and useful in my humblest of opinions. Don't assume I'm hitting any nerves with you and quite honestly don't at all mean to.

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Hey, what happened to the eggs and pasta?

My scientific knowledge wouldn't half fill a thimble, but haven't we been doing genetic engineering for a really long time? Hybridization and selective breeding are slower methods than modern direct modification of genes, but still result in genetic changes. Since selective breeding resulted in my beautiful Irish terrier, I have to say I'm for it.

Which reminds me of a joke I heard on NPR a few years ago. What was the biggest biology experiment of all time? It was when Luther Burbank crossed the Rocky Mountains with his wife.

Eggs and pasta! That is what thus thread WAS about. :-). Seriously though, I'm all for separating this stuff into a GMO thread where probably better categorized.

As for your Irish Setter (gorgeous dogs btw--I'm a big fan), I think the food angle on GMO is a bit different and more complicated than that for a bunch if reasons including some off-color jokes that could be made but won't come from my keyboard.

Cheers. And, betting your dog loves (er, loved) this snow. :-)

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Eggs and pasta! That is what thus thread WAS about. :-). Seriously though, I'm all for separating this stuff into a GMO thread where probably better categorized.

As for your Irish Setter (gorgeous dogs btw--I'm a big fan), I think the food angle on GMO is a bit different and more complicated than that for a bunch if reasons including some off-color jokes that could be made but won't come from my keyboard.

Cheers. And, betting your dog loves (er, loved) this snow. :-)

Please, please don't confuse Irish terriers with Irish setters. My dog is an Irish terrier. (My avatar is a picture of her.) Irish setters have their qualities, but they all seem to be remarkably weak-minded. (There is, however, much to be said for stupidity in dogs. Sometimes I wish Kiko didn't understand quite so much.) And yes, she loves the snow.

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Of course.  I am just curious as to the reasons people choose to avoid/support certain products.

As another "science-based person"  (medicine really), I strongly disagree that we don't fully understand the science behind genetic modification.  The science is actually very much understood, and used in all manner of ways outside of food and agriculture.  Most of the new wonder drugs that are being produced are in one way or the other products of genetic modification.

There is a distinct difference, to me anyway, of genetically modifying corn, say, taking one kind of corn, and cross breeding it with another kind of corn and say, taking non-corn genetic material and inserting it in to a strain of corn to make bizarro corn that does not mind being bathed in RoundUp 24/7.  How did all plants change over time? Evolution and obviously cross breeding with other plants, very much likely with other plants or even other genetic material. I get that. But something just strikes me as.....wrong, when you make a plant that can be bathed in (supposedly just fine for human consumption) Round-Up. I personally do not find it not coincidental that our main pollinators, bees, bats and butterflies, are having populations fall off a cliff. But this is just me. I fully plan on reading some of the links posted on this thread to inform myself even more. This place is a great resource, and an even better place to discuss differing points of view in a calm manner. :)

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Please, please don't confuse Irish terriers with Irish setters. My dog is an Irish terrier. (My avatar is a picture of her.) Irish setters have their qualities, but they all seem to be remarkably weak-minded. (There is, however, much to be said for stupidity in dogs. Sometimes I wish Kiko didn't understand quite so much.) And yes, she loves the snow.

My apologies, TH. Was so focused on the tangential topic of GMO, didn't make the avatar connection at all. While not as familiar with Irish Terriers, pretty clear the photo isn't a setter.

All said, will stand pat on the dog compliment and assumptions about snow and selective dog breeding not being so analogous to GMOs as related to food. :-)

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 I get that. But something just strikes me as.....wrong, when you make a plant that can be bathed in (supposedly just fine for human consumption) Round-Up.

In the late 1980s I worked for a company that performed irradiation services - mostly for things like medical equipment, cosmetics, etc., but also for certain foodstuffs.  I remember a number of news articles on the subject.  People didn't like the idea.  They were afraid of the word "irradiation", and there were many who would never be convinced that it wasn't dangerous in some way, like making the foodstuffs radioactive (poppycock), or changing its chemical structure in some way.

My objection was that the food was processed in such a way that irradiation was deemed necessary to make it safe for human consumption.  A more subtle point, perhaps.  I feel the same about GMOs.  It's not so much about the food, it's about the broader ecological and socioeconomic impacts.  Also, "GMO" is way too broad a term to be meaningful.  Dogs are GMOs, too.

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Alas, I don't believe the county would let me keep laying hens in my Silver Spring back yard.

Au contraire. From Chapter 59 Montgomery County Zoning Ordinance:

Section 3.2.9. Urban Farming

A.   Defined
Urban Farming means the cultivation of fruits, vegetables, flowers, and ornamental plants, as well as the limited keeping and raising of fowl or bees and the practice of aquaculture.
B.   Use Standards
Where Urban Farming is allowed as a limited use, it must satisfy the following standards:
1.   The minimum area for an urban farm is 2,500 square feet. This standard does not apply to the keeping of bees.
2.   One fowl may be kept for every 1,000 square feet of lot or parcel area; roosters are prohibited.
3.   Aquaculture is permitted in tanks or pools.
4.   The maximum gross floor area of all structures, including aquaculture tanks or pools but excluding greenhouses, is 10% of the lot or parcel on any urban farm.
5.   The minimum setback for accessory structures from any lot line is 15 feet.
6.   The maximum height for any accessory structure, including any pitched roof, is 14 feet.
7.   Only manual or walk-behind mechanical equipment and practices commonly used in residential gardening may be used.
 
:)
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