Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Laaaaaaaaaadiiiiiiiieeeeeees and Geeennntttlllemmmmeeeennnn ... ... ...

I am honored to introduce one of the greatest and most important members of Washington, DC's mega-thriving coffee community, the legendary RoastMonkey himself: Joel Finklestein, Owner and Head Roaster of the absurdly outstanding Qualia Coffee on Georgia Avenue in Petworth.

Hosting this chat will be the formidable darkstar965, who we're very lucky to have as our new Forum Host in our new Coffee Shops and Roasters Forum. I "hand-poured" darkstar to be host of this chat because of his obvious knowledge, passion, expertise, and enthusiasm for all things in the endlessly rewarding, yet surprisingly affordable, world of world-class coffee and coffee houses.

Darkstar will be "formally" introducing Joel, and will be our honored emcee - I can't think of a better scenario than an expert hosting an expert, while my dysfunctional grinding machine gets to sit back, sipping a cup of Ethiopian Yirgacheffe, and enjoying it all from the confines of my Barcalounger.

Please welcome Joel, a valued, long-standing community member, as our friend who also happens to be a world-class expert in coffee sourcing and roasting, and Darkstar, who knows as much about our area's coffee houses as anyone I've ever met. I once took a tour of the State Opera House in Vienna, Austria. Our tour guide told us that the patrons whom the singers feared the most were the ones standing in the back row. 'These people,' he said, 'love opera enough to stand there for many hours and watch it from a distance, sometimes coming multiple times per week, and these are the greatest experts we have that aren't musicians.' There was a genuine respect coming from this man's voice, and that is precisely the respect I have for Darkstar - he is an amateur with a professional's knowledge of many things, and the perfect person to host this chat.

Thank you in advance to both Joel and Darkstar, and with that, I present to you our emcee and host, who will be telling you more about Joel.

Cheers!

Rocks

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks, Don! Both for suggesting this chat and for my honor to serve as humble moderator,  which I'll interpret to mean 'staying out of the way as much as possible.'  ;)

 

As we kick this off, I'd really like to thank Joel for agreeing to share some time and thoughts with us over the next week. I'm pretty sure this will be the first ever donrockwell.com chat with a coffee professional so very exciting for that reason"¦and several others, as I'll explain here.

 

Joel Finklestein is, most notably, the owner and head roaster of Qualia Coffee, located on Georgia Ave NW in Petworth. Qualia produces and serves some truly wonderful joe and is surely in the conversation for best roaster/retailer in the area.

 

Joel grew up here in DC. He attended the Maret School in NW before heading off to college at Washington University in St. Louis, where he had a double major in physics and English, with a math minor. Those study foci are key to understanding his later approach to coffee. A rare food/bev entrepreneur who can write! And, one who brings real analysis to the sourcing, and craft of roasting, great coffee beans.

 

After spending around a decade in journalism (covering healthcare and health policy for a number of different organizations around town), Joel first began tinkering with coffee roasting at home as many do: with a popcorn popper! He then moved on to the "dog bowl" method (heat gun--feel free to ask; I hadn't heard of that before either) before feeling frustrated that he just couldn't get the flavor profiles he thought possible with those methods.

 

Having the math and physics background, Joel then built his first roaster from...a BBQ Grill...and began selling beans at local farmers' markets. It was during this time that he finally realized why so much coffee, even roasted locally, just wasn't that good: single-origin sourcing and freshness weren't really others' priorities. So, Joel first named his farmers market business "Fresh Off the Roast." Later convinced he had to let people somehow taste the coffee at the point of sale (versus just selling beans), he became the first in DC to fresh-brew coffee to order at a farmers market. Thus the idea for Qualia first germinated.

 

Petworth was and is Joel's neighborhood and, when the for-rent sign went up on the space in which Qualia Coffee now sits, he signed on and was able to get open unusually quickly and cost-effectively. On May 1st, Qualia will celebrate it's 6-year anniversary!

 

In Joel, we have a local entrepreneur who has very deep expertise in sourcing coffee, coffee roasting and everything to do with running a local coffee business. Beyond that, he can also speak to local business more generally, trends in coffee, and running an independent coffee house. Joel is also a bit of a local media personality, having been a regular on NPR's Kojo Nnamdi show, in WaPo, City Paper and others. 

 

Toward the end of our week together, Joel will even be chatting with us from the 27th Annual Expo put on by the Specialty Coffee Association of America in Seattle.

 

It may be a day or so before Joel joins us but please feel free to begin asking questions now
Link to comment
Share on other sites

And, at Don's suggestion, I'll just start this off with a first question. Please feel free to post at will with your own and Joel will address them all as he checks in.

Joel,

Can you unpack these core beliefs of single-origin sourcing and freshness that are so foundational to your philosophy?

On single-origin coffees, anyone who has been to Qualia Coffee knows you always have 7-10 coffees available from which to choose. They come from all over the world; Africa, Latin America, SE Asia, all the equatorial-coffee growing areas.  Why is "single-origin" so important to you and how do you go about even deciding on regions, countries and farms from which to buy your beans?

And, on freshness.  in addition to first naming your business "Fresh Off the Roast," I know your beans in the shop are always just a few days off the roast. This is very different from what most shops and wholesale roasters do.  Why so important and how do you handle beans not sold once past your own "sell by" dates?

Thanks again, Joel. Really cool to have you doing this with us.

darkstar965

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Before answering those questions, I would like to thank darkstar for moderating this chat and for being such an ardent supporter of the local coffee scene. I also want to extend a heartfelt thank you to Don for hosting this chat and, of course, for creating this forum where food industry and the folks who support us can meet and interact. I'm very excited to be a part of this community and look forward to answering any questions DR.com members have about coffee, the coffee business or my collection of satirical coffee-themed t-shirts.

Darkstar, to your question about our focus on single-origin coffee (in contrast to blends which mix coffee beans from multiple countries), from the very beginning of my obsession with coffee, I was fascinated with the natural variety of flavors that beans from different countries exhibit. An expertly cultivated coffee bean has more than 400 flavor compounds, making for enormous potential complexity. For me, as a budding coffee snob, that was what made coffee worth exploring beyond just finding a satisfying cup of joe. It wasn't a deep intellectual conviction as much as simple curiosity that drove me to seek out the best single-origin coffees I could find.

When I launched Qualia, which grew out of my home roasting/farmers market experience, I focused on single-origin coffee beans more out of practicality than principle. Roasting in such small batches, offering such a wide variety of coffees and rotating our inventory seasonally makes it logistically very difficult to sustain anything like a consistent blend. But over time, as I have shifted an increasing amount of my attention to how we purchase our coffee, the impetus to maintain the integrity of each bean has evolved into a core philosophy, which I describe in greater detail on my secret blog here. To summarize very briefly, there is a story behind every coffee, about where it came from, who cared for it and how it got to me, and that story is important because it explains why each coffee has a distinctive flavor.

In terms of freshness, which is also, I think an important aspect of what makes Qualia unique, we sell all of our beans within three days of roast and all the coffee we use for brewing in house is within a week. That policy is not about selling our coffee while it is still good or fresh enough, but rather ensuring that our customers get to experience the coffee when it is at it's best, the short window of peak freshness. But from a purely selfish perspective, this means that I get to roast the coffee the way I want to, the way I think will bring out the most flavor, without worrying about shelf life.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When I launched Qualia, which grew out of my home roasting/farmers market experience, I focused on single-origin coffee beans more out of practicality than principle. Roasting in such small batches, offering such a wide variety of coffees and rotating our inventory seasonally makes it logistically very difficult to sustain anything like a consistent blend. But over time, as I have shifted an increasing amount of my attention to how we purchase our coffee, the impetus to maintain the integrity of each bean has evolved into a core philosophy, which I describe in greater detail on my secret blog here. To summarize very briefly, there is a story behind every coffee, about where it came from, who cared for it and how it got to me, and that story is important because it explains why each coffee has a distinctive flavor.

Joel,

Thank you in advance for being here. There's a reason I wanted you to do this chat - as opposed to any other culinary figure in the city - which should become very obvious over the next week or so.

I can't ask the question I want to ask until I read your brief blog entry closely. I read the first few sentences, then realized, whoa, this is not going to be something I can just browse casually, because it appears to have direct relevance to my first question to you.

While I'm doing my homework, you (and everyone else) should do yours by reading "A Chat with Terry Theise," which is directly related to what I want to ask you first, and appears to also be closely related to your blog entry.

(In addition, people should feel encouraged to read all of our chats in their entirety. Here is the oeuvre - note the irony of our very first chat on eGullet, which took place almost eleven years ago. Cycle of Life.)

I encourage everyone to make reading these their weekend projects, and I'll be back this afternoon with my question.

Thank you again, and thanks also to Darkstar for all he's doing here to promote our city's remarkable coffee naissance which involves quality (Qualia), not quantity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I encourage everyone to make reading these their weekend projects, and I'll be back this afternoon with my question.

Okay, I've done my homework.

Other than a passing comment by Joel when we were arranging the details of this chat (he wrote me something about needing to compose a response to Washingtonian before we started), I had no knowledge of either Washingtonian's article, or Joel's response to it. This chat is quite literally co-incidental.

My question to Joel was kind-of, sort-of answered in his blog entry: Do you think coffee beans are affected by their terroir, like grapes are for making wine? (And now you know why I brought up Terry Theise, who is arguably our country's most passionate terroir-ist.)

Joel, my guess is that you've pretty much answered, "Yes," but I'm going to let you speak for yourself. Does terroir have anything to do with how our cup of coffee tastes (*)? By terroir, I mean a specific plot of land, where the beans are grown, the characteristics of which include soil components, ambient temperature, rainfall, natural yeasts, climate patterns, slope, drainage - basically everything *Nature* assigns to a given plot of land. Terroir does *not* include anything manmade, such as harvesting procedures, roasting techniques, aging, etc., with obvious exceptions such as constructed slopes, or drainage systems that have been permanently installed (essentially, these things, despite being man-made, become part and parcel of the plot of land, and thus part of its terroir.

Terroir is quite literally everywhere, down to the spot in your backyard you've chosen to plant your tomatoes. (Yes, that tomato vine would have produced different tomatoes if you had planted it on the other side of your house, and I suspect the homeowner would be able to tell a difference due to slope, drainage, shade, etc.)

Coffee beans grown in Kenya have different characteristics than ones grown in Ethiopia (or, for a more extreme counterexample, Brazil). How much of this is due to terroir, and how much of this is due to traditional man-made techniques for growing and harvesting the beans? This is the classic nature vs. nurture question, reframed.

(*) In case anyone thinks I've lobbed a softball at Joel, there are certain things for which terroir matters little - does it *really* matter where potatoes are grown when you're going to distill them into vodka? There might be a difference in a lab test, but for all practical purposes, no, it really doesn't matter - I defy anyone in the world to tell me whether the potatoes for their vodka were grown in Russia or Poland. When I was researching this article on Sake (iron-ically, for Washingtonian), I was at Kaz Sushi Bistro, chatting with Kaz about his opinions, and something I brought up was serving temperature. 'Don't you think serving temperature has a huge effect on masking characteristics of terroir?' I asked him. He laughed dismissively, and said, "Are you going to ask me about the temperature of this tea next?" (He was holding and drinking a cup of hot tea, and drinking it entirely uncritically, mostly because of habit, a little jolt of caffeine, and undoubtedly a passing enjoyment from the ritual.) You should have seen the look on his face when I thought for a moment, and said, "Yes, absolutely." I think there is a "range" of serving temperatures that is a sweet-spot for tasting things, and that coffee often falls outside of that range - just as there are only about seven or eight octaves-worth of meaningful musical notes to the human ear, there are only a certain number of degrees at which our taste buds can function - there's a very good reason that wine is served at 50-65 degrees, instead of 180 degrees, and the reason is so human beings can perceive the nuances in taste. Hot sake, for example, is generally an inferior grade - serving a Junmai Daiginjo in a hot stone cup is an absolute waste, completely neutralizing and nullifying all the trouble the producer went to in order to make it. Why isn't it the same with coffee ... or is it? Why isn't coffee served like wine if it's such a nuanced drink? Do you think the way coffee is so often served - steaming hot, in a paper cup with a plastic lid on it - is in accord with it being nothing more than a "caffeine delivery system?"

There's so much I want to ask you because I am something of a layman when it comes to coffee, and I'm really looking forward to your take on things. (Feel free to address this post in stages, as there are several points in it, each of which can be addressed as a separate issue.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

..."Are you going to ask me about the temperature of this tea next?" (He was holding and drinking a cup of hot tea, and drinking it entirely uncritically, mostly because of habit, a little jolt of caffeine, and undoubtedly a passing enjoyment from the ritual.) You should have seen the look on his face when I thought for a moment, and said, "Yes, absolutely." I think there is a "range" of serving temperatures that is a sweet-spot for tasting things, and that coffee often falls outside of that range - just as there are only about seven or eight octaves-worth of meaningful musical notes to the human ear, there are only a certain number of degrees at which our taste buds can function - there's a very good reason that wine is served at 50-65 degrees, instead of 180 degrees, and the reason is so human beings can perceive the nuances in taste. Hot sake, for example, is generally an inferior grade - serving a Junmai Daiginjo in a hot stone cup is an absolute waste, completely neutralizing and nullifying all the trouble the producer went to in order to make it. Why isn't it the same with coffee ... or is it? Why isn't coffee served like wine if it's such a nuanced drink? Do you think the way coffee is so often served - steaming hot, in a paper cup with a plastic lid on it - is in accord with it being nothing more than a "caffeine delivery system?"

...

I'll be interested to get Joel's take on the terroir questions but just wanted to share a thought on the temperature and wine thoughts excerpted above. Not sure if Joel will agree with me here but:

1. I think temperature very important for exactly the reasons about which you (Don) speculate. Even to the point of that importance being similar with coffee and wine.

2. Coffee is served with care and treated properly (temperature and many other factors) by the best independent shops. In addition to Qualia, you might try some joe at places like Slipstream, Mockingbird Hill and even Filter. Watch how they brew your coffee. Ask them about temperature. I'd imagine the beliefs there would be consistent with how Joel might see things but we'll see.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey Don,

Yes, I would definitely agree that each coffee has a unique terroir due to soil content and other environmental factors. There is also the issue of varietal or cultivar. Although the specialty coffee market deals almost exclusively with arabica beans, within the species arabica there are dozens of different varietals including global ones such as bourbon and typica and regionally specific ones such as castillo or mokka. Certainly the nature part of the equation can't be overlooked, but there are several other factors that contribute to the final cup profile including, how much rain and sunlight the plants get, how the coffee cherries are harvested, how the beans are removed from the cherry and finally how the coffee beans are sorted for defects. These can actually alter compounds in the coffee bean and impact the final flavor profile. All of these things play off each other and there are arguably too many variables to reasonably take them into account for an individual lot of coffee.

Since you've already brought up sake, it reminds me of the story behind how the sake brewmasters figured out that the type of yeasts that were living in the different brewing houses was determining whether the sake made there was good or not. Recently coffee growers have started to look more critically at the fermentation process that is necessary to remove the bean from the fruit. Apparently different fermentation times can have a noticeable impact on the flavor of the end product. And this is only looking at wet processed coffee in which the cherries are soaked in water for just a few hours in order to make the beans easier to remove. Dry processed coffee in which the cherries are left on the beans for weeks while they sun dry create a completely different flavor profile and will require separate exploration.

And that is all factors that affect the flavor profile before it ever gets to me, the roaster, much less the barista or whomever is brewing it into a cup.

But, to diverge for a moment, the response from Terry Theise's chat (Don, I am so glad you posted that link; it's a great read) that really spoke to me was this one:

"I don't tend to think in lofty concepts like 'the future of wine', but like anyone who loves the stuff I ponder what's happening to it. Somewhere in one of my catalogs I muse that there'll always be a small loyal audience for the very finest, most mystically intricate wines, and also a very large audience for fake-boobs lap-dance wines, but I wonder about the many wines in between: the lovely, useful, not-great but infinitely good...not wines of moderate virtue but rather wines wherein moderation IS a virtue. Who will buy them? Lately I have come to feel we place insufficient emphasis on the simple desires of the body, on the wines that make us sensually HAPPY, that deliver us joy. It isn't always "fun" to drink great wines, you know. And I doubt many people would select a great wine to answer the question 'What am I thirsty for?'"

I feel like I could apply this almost word-for-word to coffee. There is a lot of dreck out there, but there is also a lot of really good, enjoyable beans being produced right now that sometimes gets overshadowed by rare and over-priced and over-hyped coffees, like geisha or kopi luwak. The difference in price between the good-to-great coffee and the dreck is relatively modest while the difference in price between the latter and the high-profile coffees is enormous and rarely, if ever justified.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Joel,

Another sourcing question (with some different parts) building on the great terroir exchange above. This one is more tactical and please feel free to punt if this one is too direct or difficult to really address. As much as you're comfortable doing, can you pull back the curtain some on how smaller independents like yourself actually forge relationships with overseas farmers to procure great beans? I've come across many, higher-quality independents around the US who promote their personal relationships with coffee producers in Latin America especially, or Africa and Asia occasionally. This has always made me wonder about a few things having to do with coffee supply chains.

- How does a new but serious independent first identify preferred sources? Word of mouth? Trade press? Google? How did you do it and now, six years later, do you buy your beans from a small number of producers or a much greater mix of them?

- What role should and do wholesale distributors play? Will a more serious purveyor here in the US, in your view, buy direct from individual farmers ("direct trade") or is that infeasible or cost prohibitive so distributors are more the norm? And, with thousands of independent shops now in the US and other developed economies, isn't it just unreaiistic for the huge majority to descend upon the more prized regions and farms to "build relationships" or for photo ops?

- How high is your confidence in supply chain integrity? By this, I mean to ask how much coffee purveyors can fall victim to misrepresentations or other questionable practices overseas that can be so tough to verify even for much bigger businesses in many unrelated industries? I think many, many Americans who are increasingly alert to issues surrounding foods like farmed or endangered fish, hormone-ridden beef or pesticide-laden produce are absolutely in the dark about where their Dunkin', gas station, Maxwell House, or even Starbucks coffee really comes from and with what impact.

- What are your thoughts on the seemingly-admirable but now-controversial concept of "Fair Trade Coffee?" Counter-Culture famously left Fair Trade USA some years ago as detailed at length here by a Stanford researcher. If not Fair Trade USA, then how do you and others who care about doing the right thing ensure that you are?

BTW, as Don wrote in his question about terroir, please feel free to address this in stages as I know I've opened a Pandora's box with several related issues here. Thank you, Joel.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Joel makes some important points in the "Professional Coffee Roasting" thread in our Coffee Shops and Roasters Forum. That entire thread is worth reading, and I may base some questions on some of Joel's comments there.

For example:

This is going to make me seem pretentious, but the vast majority of people, including most of the people on this forum, have never experienced a truly great coffee. You really can't appreciate what your missing if all you have ever had access to was just good-to-mediocre brews. That's not to say we are either the sole arbiter or purveyors of great coffee, but when you have that first transcendent cup of coffee, you will know the difference.

Putting pretense aside, would you say that everything served at Qualia is something you would consider a "truly great coffee?" Or are some (as Terry Theise mentioned) coffees whose biggest virtue is not trying to be great?

Also, on a recent visit to Qualia Coffee, I had a Hand Pour Ethiopia Yirgasheffe, no sugar or cream, followed by an Hand Pour Ethiopia Sidamo, no sugar or cream.

I absolutely *loved* the Yirgacheffe, while merely liking the Sidamo. This is reasonable, right? Not every wine is a great wine.

However, I loved not only the Yirgacheffe (which I bought a bag of (btw, does it freeze?)), but the *difference* between the Yirgacheffe and the Sidamo - they were two entirely difference creatures, and anyone - even a raw beginner - could tell them apart blind once they tasted them for the first time. To me, that is reflective, or touching on being reflective, of terroir. While it might have been a human factor that was responsible for the obvious difference between the two, it seemed like both of these Ethiopian coffees had a "sense of place." And assuming that each had what the French call typicité regarding a wine reflecting its grape, or place of origin, I have to think I would successfully be able to discern a Yirgacheffe from a Sidamo in any future tastings (cuppings?). I see so much overlap between the concepts between coffee and wine (and tea, for that matter, and cheese, too), that its just ... obvious. It takes no special talent to tell them apart, any more than it takes a special talent to tell the difference between red and blue, or a high note and a low note, and I see absolutely nothing snobbish or elitist about it. Regarding snobbery or elitism, coffee, like beer, is something where you can have the best this world has to offer for only a few dollars; wine, art, yachts - don't even bother.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Guys - nice to be cited so often and so kindly, and thanks to Rocks for the tip-off. Joel makes me wish I drank coffee, because he's my kinda guy. But I think the curious sensibility conduces to any number of things where variations on a theme are present, and especially where those variations are based on things both unprovable and inexplicable. Whether the matrix is tea, cheese, wine, coffee, chocolate (among others) we first are intrigued and delighted by the complexities in play, and then we become intensely curious about how they arise. We can cloak ourselves in a high-minded moniker like "The artisan sensibility" but really we're just a wondering sort of humanoid thinking "HTF???"

The nice part is that it colors our view of the world with vitality and multiplicity. We even learn that white asparagus grown in a small set of soils in certain parts of Europe is especially sweet and "elegant," or that the Door County cherry of Wisconsin is markedly more complex than other cherries, and so our world becomes a most wonderful place, and we are wonderfully alert to it. So to me a man like Joel is more than just a coffee Lama; he's an agent of appreciation.

Thanks again to all who remembered me.

TT

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Darkstar for your questions on sourcing and traceability. It's a complicated issue that can be really difficult to summarize given the many different levels in which we maintain relationships.

Without going back to the beginning, once I opened Qualia, I was in a position to buy coffee by the sack, the vast majority of which ship directly from the country of origin and weigh between 60 and 70 kilograms. While then as now, I order the bulk of our coffee from US-based importers (mostly warehousing in NJ) who have purchased the coffee directly from growers or mills at origin. Just to be clear, we work with specialty coffee importers, who focus on high quality beans and make up only a small fraction of worldwide coffee sales.

However, from the very start of Qualia, we have also been in the fortunate position of being able to work with small, single-origin importers. Many of the relationships we developed early on have flourished and grown together over the past six years. For example, we have worked very closely for several years with a group of Nicaraguan farmers who were just starting to organize as I was in the process of opening the storefront. In fact, the DC-based founder of the group, came to me weeks before we were ready to open our doors and asked me to roast several batches of beans he had just brought in from Matagalpa in his carry-on luggage. Now his group represents dozens of small farms throughout Matagalpa and Jinotega, all of whom are fetching much higher prices for their coffee than they ever imagined. The advantage of being a small-scale roaster is that I can work with an individual farm, one that may only produce a few hundred pounds of coffee beans annually and maintain the integrity and distinction of that lot, while a larger roaster requires ten times as much of any particular coffee to make it practical for them to buy it.

Over the years, we have also worked with single-origin and in some case single-estate importers from Guatemala, Brazil, Honduras, Colombia and even Ethiopia and our results have been mixed. Just as there are many farmers/importers who are looking to build a quality brand, there are others who just want to turn a quick buck. I have had to be a little cautious when approached by potential vendors. We, of course, roast and cup everything in house before we buy, but there have been a few times when the samples we were supplied didn't match the coffee we were sold. Traceability is also essential in this process, especially as we start to work a larger variety of small vendors. Coffee is a high value crop in many countries and it is not unheard of for shipments to be stolen at gun point.

However, the financial value of coffee cuts the other way as well. Over the past couple of years we have been able to purchase coffee lots from places like Rwanda and Uganda, where coffee revenue has played a key role in helping war-torn regions rebuild and promote stability. Over past year, we have worked with a group of Christian missionaries who have been helping farmers in Colombia's Valle de Cauca region make the transition from growing coca to cultivating coffee.

Access to smart phones and the Internet has made the world a smaller place and allowed us more direct access to the people growing the coffee we drink. Coffee may be a huge industry, but the majority of it still grows on farms that are only a few hectares of land. To me, this gives us small-scale roasters the advantage of being able to highlight these well-managed coffees and bring attention to the farmers who do so much of the hard work of bringing them to us.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Darkstar: I want to address your question about fair-trade coffee separately, because in a sense certification whether Fair Trade, Organic, Rainforest Alliance or UTZ serves a different purpose then tracing coffee to its origins. Speaking from a highly cynical perspective, all they do is make you feel good about you purchase without having to think too deeply about what you are buying. What they don't do is actually ensure that farmers are paid a living wage, the environment is protected or that you receive a pure, unadulterated product. The reason they fail to deliver on their promise is not out of an effort to deceive consumers, but because they are reducing the complexities of an international traded commodity into a 15-second sales pitch.

More informed experts than myself have written extensively about how the Fair-Trade certification process fails in many places to capture the real and often desperate conditions in which farmers are really living.  Ultimately, specialty coffee roasters have moved away from relying on (not abandoning them) because they don't provide as much information as we need to make our purchasing decisions.

To your question about how we know that the coffee we are buying are sustainable, both economically for the growers and environmentally for the land, short of visiting the farms and sitting down with the farmers, we can't really have that kind of first-hand knowledge. What we can do is pay well above market price for our coffee. I'm not rah-rah capitalist, but there is some very straightforward math here. We pay more for better quality, importers pay farmers more, farmers have an incentive to grow better coffee. This is a feedback loop that benefits everyone along the supply chain. Incidentally, the same growing practices that produce better coffee are more environmentally sustainable as well. For example, shade grown coffee develops slower, giving the fruit more time to absorb nutrients, leading to a better tasting bean.

So by simply demanding higher quality and more information, and being willing to pay for it, specialty roasters help farmers not only make a living wage, but give them an incentive to grow better, more sustainable coffee.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Darkstar: I want to address your question about fair-trade coffee separately, because in a sense certification whether Fair Trade, Organic, Rainforest Alliance or UTZ serves a different purpose then tracing coffee to its origins. Speaking from a highly cynical perspective, all they do is make you feel good about you purchase without having to think too deeply about what you are buying. What they don't do is actually ensure that farmers are paid a living wage, the environment is protected or that you receive a pure, unadulterated product. The reason they fail to deliver on their promise is not out of an effort to deceive consumers, but because they are reducing the complexities of an international traded commodity into a 15-second sales pitch.

More informed experts than myself have written extensively about how the Fair-Trade certification process fails in many places to capture the real and often desperate conditions in which farmers are really living.  Ultimately, specialty coffee roasters have moved away from relying on (not abandoning them) because they don't provide as much information as we need to make our purchasing decisions.

To your question about how we know that the coffee we are buying are sustainable, both economically for the growers and environmentally for the land, short of visiting the farms and sitting down with the farmers, we can't really have that kind of first-hand knowledge. What we can do is pay well above market price for our coffee. I'm not rah-rah capitalist, but there is some very straightforward math here. We pay more for better quality, importers pay farmers more, farmers have an incentive to grow better coffee. This is a feedback loop that benefits everyone along the supply chain. Incidentally, the same growing practices that produce better coffee are more environmentally sustainable as well. For example, shade grown coffee develops slower, giving the fruit more time to absorb nutrients, leading to a better tasting bean.

So by simply demanding higher quality and more information, and being willing to pay for it, specialty roasters help farmers not only make a living wage, but give them an incentive to grow better, more sustainable coffee.

Joel, I don't normally include the entire body of a post when I'm only referring to a small part of it, but I don't want readers to miss what you wrote just because I picked out a small section.

I did have a question pop into my mind about this one tiny point you made:

"For example, shade grown coffee develops slower, giving the fruit more time to absorb nutrients, leading to a better tasting bean."

Why do we need shade-grown at all when a cooler climate can do the same thing? Is this not indicative that the region isn't optimal?

Come to think of it, I have *no idea* where coffee beans come from, other than what I've seen in pictures hanging on the wall at Starbucks, invariably of grizzled, toothless, dark-skinned, octogenarians (who look like an older version of N!xau) casting a serious glance into the camera somewhere in bright sunlight and blue skies, sometimes with red-budding shrubs nearby, sometimes sorting through beans scattered atop a giant, circular object.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Don,

To address your last questions first, if you grow coffee at higher altitude/cooler temperature, you still need shade to ensure quality. The reason this is even an issue is that a decade ago, some farmers were cutting down shade trees on their farms so that their coffee trees would get more sunlight and therefore grow faster. This was famously bad for the bird population, but also people quickly realized that this was bad for the quality of the coffee.

In terms of where coffee comes from, that is a pretty general question, so I am just going to give you some more homework: this web site created by our friends from Nicaragua has a comprehensive description of how coffee is grown and processed at origin.

Now, back to your questions/observations about good versus great coffee. You are, of course, correct that not every coffee that Qualia offers should be considered a great coffee.  To put my answer in a personal context, a great coffee has both a delicate balance of flavors AND deep complexity while a good coffee should still have good balance, but may only have one or two layers to it. Like wine, a great coffee is best appreciated on it's own, while a good coffee is good for drinking along with food or maybe for adding milk and sugar.

I wonder how other people define the difference between good and great coffee.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

...

I wonder how other people define the difference between good and great coffee.

Joel,

This is an interesting question I have to confess I hadn't really considered before. Of course, as a coffee fan who travels and tries to imitate a sponge in terms of asking questions, trying many coffees and learning whatever I can, I can discern really good (great?) coffee without really articulating why or defending the view. Know it when I taste it, etc. But, as someone who has created topics and written posts here about my own differences between good and great coffee shops, had never considered that frame for the coffees themselves.

So, my initial answer isn't as informed as yours but I'd define the difference for myself this way:

Good: Basically, not bad. Or, more specifically not stale, burnt, weak or with off flavors. I usually think the coffee at better independent shops is good but most coffee in the US tastes bad to me so I tend to avoid it.

Great: What you call "complexity" maybe? I tend to really love coffees where I can pick out a few different tastes/notes and characteristics that can change as the coffee cools in the cup. So, as example, I enjoy Ethiopian coffees when I can discern the floral and citrusy notes for which they're often known but, flavors beyond those or, maybe, what you call "layers" would move it into "great" territory.

I never put milk or sweetener in coffee. If the coffee isn't at least "good" as defined above, I gladly order tea.

Given you're a writer, as well as an experienced and passionate roaster, can you explain more what you mean by "layers" and "complexity" as applied to coffee? Is one more or less the same as "notes" that you and other roasters publish like "citrus," "caramel", "baking chocolate," "jasmine tea," "strawberry" and the like?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is all very interesting, but somewhat esoteric.   What's frustrating for me is that I've become addicted to freshness.  After about 7 days, I start detecting off-flavors.  And it's a good half hour drive during the day to get to Qualia or one of the other shops where I can buy beans that are less than a week old.

What if I just want to brew a great cup of coffee at home?  I have a burr grinder and usually I use a press pot.  Any advice?  What do you think are the best home-brewing methods?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is all very interesting, but somewhat esoteric.   What's frustrating for me is that I've become addicted to freshness.  After about 7 days, I start detecting off-flavors.  And it's a good half hour drive during the day to get to Qualia or one of the other shops where I can buy beans that are less than a week old.

What if I just want to brew a great cup of coffee at home?  I have a burr grinder and usually I use a press pot.  Any advice?  What do you think are the best home-brewing methods?

I bought some Ethiopia Yirgacheffe at Qualia that was roasted that morning, and noticed a difference after 3 days.

How do coffee beans perform in the freezer?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey porcupine,

I feel you. I got so addicted to fresh coffee, I opened my own damn coffee shop.

I think you have a couple of options. If getting to Qualia is inconvenient, we do ship. Actually, we get a surprising number of mail orders from folks who live in DC. There are also an increasing number of by-mail subscription or other on-line retailers who sell coffee from multiple roasters nationally. My second thought is home roasting. The green coffee is much more durable. You can buy several months worth of coffee and only roast it when you need it. However, this does take some planning. As a general rule, coffee actually improves a couple days after it is roasted. This has to do with the fact that just-roasted coffee slowly releases CO2 gas and some of that off-gassing needs to occur before you can get proper extraction. Again, just a general rule, coffee is best three-to-five days from roast (results may vary, Don). I often see a big drop off in flavor around eight-to-nine days off of roast, but I have had coffees that have actually peaked that far out, as well, so really treat these as very general rules. The key for me is that while the coffee is changing, when it is at it's best is an entirely subjective experience. So, one person might really like the coffee at day five and another prefer day three. For me, I enjoy seeing how the coffee changes over time. Actually, that is really one of the most interesting things to me about fresh coffee is how it is a little different every day.

But, I'm getting off track. There is one other option (and no, Don, it isn't freezing the beans). Keeping your coffee in an air-tight container will keep the delicate volatile compounds from breaking down as quickly. If you want to be really fussy about it, which I totally encourage, weigh out as much coffee as you need for each day and store each daily batch in it's own sealed container.

There a couple brewing methods I don't like, namely percolators (extracts too much) and Chemex (extracts too little), but otherwise, I think you should use whatever method fits your routine. I personally use manual drip because it suits my ritual in the morning: put on the hot water, feed the animals, do the dishes, then spend four minutes listening to the crazy on C-SPAN while I brew a pot of coffee. I like French press, but don't use them at home because inevitably one of our four cats will knock it off the counter. So, like I said, whatever fits your lifestyle you should use. More important is developing the recipe you use to get a consistent and satisfactory result.

Again to point to my secret blog, I have guidelines for several brewing methods there.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Darkstar, Thanks for the thoughtful interrogatory (oh, I guess I am still a writer). Standard cupping procedure requires us to assess several factors, five to be precises: fragrance/aroma, acidity, body, flavor and aftertaste. While the smell of the coffee is important, it isn't the core of taste, so I will set that aside for now. To me body and acidity are two sides of the same coin. These really constitute the mouthfeel of the coffee and are what I think most people notice immediately about any particular coffee they drink. These will really be apparent on some level whether you are drinking the coffee black or with cream and/or sugar. If these elements in balance, you have what I would describe as a good cup of coffee. So the flavor is really where a great cup of coffee distinguishes itself from a good cup of coffee. Some coffee, taking Don's experience for example, are balanced and have distinctive notes, in the case of Sidamo, distinct chocolate and cherry. On the other hand, a great coffee has a chorus of flavors that tantalize the tongue. With a great coffee, it make be difficult or impossible to really place the flavors as they seem to change and morph, which is where I start to describe them as layers, because they don't reveal themselves all in one sip.

The more complex coffee, the harder it is to describe what specific flavors you are tasting and the more imaginative often the notes become.

Speaking of great coffee, I will jetting off to Seattle in a few hours to attend the 2015 SCAA conference. I hope to be experiencing some great coffee while I am there. I will be checking in with the chat as I can and maybe even posting a mini-travelogue, if folks are interested.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

But, I'm getting off track. There is one other option (and no, Don, it isn't freezing the beans). Keeping your coffee in an air-tight container will keep the delicate volatile compounds from breaking down as quickly. If you want to be really fussy about it, which I totally encourage, weigh out as much coffee as you need for each day and store each daily batch in it's own sealed container.

At my local Harris-Teeter yesterday, there was one, lone, 12-ounce bag of Counter Culture "La Golondrina" with a roast date of 2/5 (for $14.99).

I bought it just because I was interested about this discussion, but I have a feeling it's going to be like buying a really high-quality baguette that has been sitting around for a week on a grocer's shelf. (There's a reason the French used to buy baguettes every single morning - notice how I sadly voice this in the past tense.)

---

Black, it was pretty bad; with a little sugar and cream, it's really not bad at all, and quite frankly, better than the vast majority of the rubbish you get at the supermarket. But the lack of freshness eliminates the possibility of drinking it black. Maybe more than anything, this shows how low our standards are - we're willing to sacrifice old-world quality for new-world convenience.

Well, dammit, I'm not.

I also can't say "how low our standards have fallen," because forty years ago, we were drinking Dunkin' Donuts and Chock Full O' Nuts (guess who their pitchman was, btw?) Click --> here <-- for the answer (NB - in Arnold Rampersad's excellent biography, there's a fairly significant portion towards the end of the book devoted to this).

I'm wondering aloud if the U.S., colonial or not, has ever had a palate for good coffee.

Sorry to hijack your chat with my ramblings, Joel - here's another question for you: are you willing to lower your standards to sink to the level of the masses, or do you insist that the masses raise their standards up to your level? I have struggled mightily with this question, incidentally, so it is of great personal interest to me. Is there anything you can do to gain mass acceptance? Do you even care about mass acceptance?

I can cite so many examples in the restaurant world who have sold out to the masses, and the irony is that because they have the masses behind them (which includes all (yes, 100%) of the mainstream media), they can get away with their false portrayal of expertise; it's those who would challenge them who are castigated as being "jealous" or "wannabes," which is the exact opposite of the truth: I *don't* wannabe - in fact, I'm a refusetobe.

I honestly see this problem in your future, if you aren't already experiencing the yin-yang, push-pull of it. I'm afraid that uncompromised expertise naturally gravitates towards a niche following - the question is, what can be done about it other than essentially changing the world? This is why I'm actively taking an interest in posts such as this and this - I am not going to be part of the auto-rejection problem because my mind's default switch is set to "off." I honestly believe that once people "get" where you're coming from with your obsessive attention to detail in coffee, they'll be in a beautiful place, and there won't be any turning back for them. They don't need to be experts themselves; they simply need to appreciate *your* expertise. Going back to your blog entry, I believe this is precisely where Washingtonian fell short - they're locked into a default setting of "off."

"This Is Water" by David Foster Wallace:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I want to encourage our readers here to ask questions - this is, after all, a chat, not an interview.

Joel is well-equipped to answer pretty much anything you want to know about both Qualia, and coffee in general, and we're having this chat both as an opportunity for Joel to take the spotlight he so richly deserves, and also for you to be able to interact with him.

Your active participation will give this chat more liveliness and vibrancy, so please DO chime in!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Darkstar, Thanks for the thoughtful interrogatory (oh, I guess I am still a writer). Standard cupping procedure requires us to assess several factors, five to be precises: fragrance/aroma, acidity, body, flavor and aftertaste. While the smell of the coffee is important, it isn't the core of taste, so I will set that aside for now. To me body and acidity are two sides of the same coin. These really constitute the mouthfeel of the coffee and are what I think most people notice immediately about any particular coffee they drink. These will really be apparent on some level whether you are drinking the coffee black or with cream and/or sugar. If these elements in balance, you have what I would describe as a good cup of coffee. So the flavor is really where a great cup of coffee distinguishes itself from a good cup of coffee. Some coffee, taking Don's experience for example, are balanced and have distinctive notes, in the case of Sidamo, distinct chocolate and cherry. On the other hand, a great coffee has a chorus of flavors that tantalize the tongue. With a great coffee, it make be difficult or impossible to really place the flavors as they seem to change and morph, which is where I start to describe them as layers, because they don't reveal themselves all in one sip.

The more complex coffee, the harder it is to describe what specific flavors you are tasting and the more imaginative often the notes become.

Speaking of great coffee, I will jetting off to Seattle in a few hours to attend the 2015 SCAA conference. I hope to be experiencing some great coffee while I am there. I will be checking in with the chat as I can and maybe even posting a mini-travelogue, if folks are interested.

Joel,

Really love this post...thank you. It helps me frame my own amateurish way of thinking about the flavor profiles of great coffee. Likewise, I'm betting your response to Porcupine about ensuring freshness at home and home brewing will help many readers here now and in the future.

BTW, when you do next check here in, the question about the deleterious impact of freezing coffee is probably a good one to address. I have many friends who do that and also complain about the taste of their coffee. Go figure! What is it about freezing that kills flavor in coffee beans?

Have a blast at the SCAA Expo! I'd love to do that one day to learn even more. If you will be travel blogging about it on your own blog, I'd love a link here once you start posting. Of course, as time permits but know you're an enthusiastic blogger/writer along with coffee expert and professional.

Finally, really want to underscore what Don wrote just above. Any and all questions about coffee or Qualia would be great here. No question too basic. We all learn from each other so please ask away.

Thanks so much, Joel. Really appreciate the insights you're sharing with us.

darkstar

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I love Qualia, it is perhaps one of my favorite places in the city, and I think the Rwandan coffee you have is truly amazing.  I work in international development and have visited several small family coffee growers all over Latin America.  Which leads me to one question --  I have done several projects to help small producers adapt to the scourge of coffee rust "roya" which seems to be getting worse with climate change.  Have you detected any impacts from increased rust?  Smaller supplies, higher prices (mainly thinking Central America here)?

We have worked to map the coffee genome, and to help farmers plant resistant varieties, improve ventilation, etc, but the problem still seems to be getting worse and the producers I speak to are worried.

Also, I love your horchata.  What made you add it to your product line?  Do many people buy it?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

More important is developing the recipe you use to get a consistent and satisfactory result. 

Oh good, so I'm not alone in being a geek...  Would you believe I weigh the beans (g, accurate to 5/100) immediately before grinding, and that I measure the water?  Of course you would.

A different topic: talk to us about home grinders.  I hate my Rancilio Rocky, because the only way I've found to calibrate it is by trial and error, which wastes a lot of coffee.  So whenever I want a different grind (say for drip, which I do several times a year when I have a lot of guests), it's out-of-whack for my press pot.  I can't simply rotate it to get it back where it was.  Also, I'd love to be able to make a Turkish coffee in the afternoon, but it doesn't seem to grind fine enough for that.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey porcupine,

I feel you. I got so addicted to fresh coffee, I opened my own damn coffee shop.

I think you have a couple of options. If getting to Qualia is inconvenient, we do ship. Actually, we get a surprising number of mail orders from folks who live in DC. There are also an increasing number of by-mail subscription or other on-line retailers who sell coffee from multiple roasters nationally.

Well hell, if you ship, you've got yourself a new customer, brother. Can you please either write about, or point to, the details, and I'll tweet about it, and you'll get all sorts of new customers.

I like French press, but don't use them at home because inevitably one of our four cats will knock it off the counter. So, like I said, whatever fits your lifestyle you should use. More important is developing the recipe you use to get a consistent and satisfactory result.

Again to point to my secret blog, I have guidelines for several brewing methods there.

I haven't looked at your blog yet (which might contain the answer to this), but since you like French Press, could you guide me as a potential new customer?

I need to know:

1) Where to buy a good French Press - this has traditionally been my favorite way to make and enjoy coffee (*)

2) Where to buy a good grinder - I know this is important, and my ignorance is something approaching total.

3) How to grind the beans for a French Press - coarse, right?

4) Anything else a relative novice likes me needs to know in order to make good home-brewed coffee.

(*) Since you're answering this for everyone, and not just me, you may wish to include other methods.

Joel, I realize these questions may seem basic to you, but the unfortunate truth is that when I was a computer expert, with an M.S. in Computer Science who was something of a wizard in complex function theory and retrieval optimization dealing with massive amounts of data, the #1 question I got, by far, was, "Do you know how to help me connect my home computer?" As a restaurant maggot, with a deep and broad knowledge of area restaurants and wine that is second-to-none, false modesty be damned, and an instant recall of restaurant geography and a freakish palate memory, the #1 question I get, by far, is, "I have [x] coming into town. What's good?" I've learned to roll with it, realizing that this is what helps people the most and makes them happy.

So please consider this your version of "that" question - answering it here will help a tremendous number of people over time, and hopefully if you give an easy-to-follow, cookbook approach that includes subscribing to Qualia's Bean-Of-The-Month-Club (or whatever it is that you call it), it will help you a great deal. I will certainly use it, and if it's any good at all, I'll be more than happy to endorse it strongly. Again, please write it in an easy-to-follow, spoon-feeding format, and I will tweet about your answer - everyone please retweet my tweet, and we'll be giving Joel our indirect support and direct thanks for doing this chat.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow, out of radio contact for 12 hours and all kinds of questions to respond to now. Well, it's good I am on my second cup of coffee of the morning (it's still morning here in Seattle).

So, I want to come back to Don's rather deep inquiry; it is something I have thought about quite a lot, both willingly and through sleepless nights, but I just haven't had enough coffee or, maybe whiskey would be better, to confront it right now.

So, to darkstar's question about freezing coffee, at the very least, as your friends have discovered, it really doesn't noticeably preserve the coffee. Freezing is a good way to slow down biological activity, but coffee degradation is virtually all physics, the breakdown of volatile compounds which is only slight delayed by cold. On the other hand, freeze exposes the coffee to extreme changes in temperature which can actually hasten the breakdown of flavor-enhancing compounds, so net, this probably has an overall negative impact on coffee quality.

When freshly roasted, coffee does a really good job of preserving itself Kept at room temperature out of sunlight, no special measures are needed. Packaging can help, but even airtight containers don't arrest all forms of degradation.

Hands down, the best way to experience coffee is to buy it fresh and grind it right before you use it. A good grinder (we carry Baratza burr mills) will make a noticeable difference in the coffee you make at home, but the difference between grinding at home and preground coffee is so significant, that I encourage customers to buy whatever home grinder is in their budget. Buying good quality, fresh roasted coffee preground is like buying a nice wine then serving it warm in a dixie cup.

I like Baratza grinders because they are a good value, ranging in price from $129 up to $900, they tend to offer a lot of bang for the buck compared with competing products (i.e. Rancilio Rocky, which I can confirm porcupine I have also had a rocky relationship with, pardon the pun). But generally, I don't suffer brand loyalty. However, I generally discourage my customers from buying any burr grinder that costs less then 100 bucks. Why? Because there are a lot of burr grinders out there for half the price of a good one that both don't work very well and don't last very long.

We also carry French press from a Canadian glass manufacturer called Grosche (they can be found on Amazon). I have a hard time distinguishing any significant difference between presses from different companies, but we do find the Grosche products to be particularly attractive. They also supply relatively inexpensive replacement glass for the units we carry.

Finally, we carry Hario glassware, very simple cones that you put on top of a carafe or cup to brew your coffee by pouring water through a filter. Again, no particular reason for carrying this particular brand of filter holder versus any other. We have nylon filters manufactured to fit these cones and I think they make a big difference. Compared with paper or cloth filters, nylon is a single layer and absorbs less of the coffee oils which enhance the flavor of your brew. This is similar to the benefit of a French press without having small particles of coffee continuing to steep in your cup.

Gulp, looks like it is time for my next cup of coffee.

This post was written at Victrola Coffee Roasters on Pike Street in Seattle.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Joel,

Two questions; one fun and one more tactical.

First, the tactical one. Following up on your grinder answer, I like your guidance to not go for lowest price on this. Precision matters and, because most get such a daily workout, durability is important. Cheap now is expensive over time. I'm wondering about the Baratza's though. No doubt here that they are great and good values but I notice, in better independent shops all around the US, that Mazzer is by far the most common for commercial grinders and they have home versions as well. Any thoughts on those? Did you consider them before going with Baratzas for Qualia?

And, the fun one. I won't show my cards despite having been there but what did you think of Victrola, one of the better known shops in a city full of them. I'd love to get your view of the newly-opened Starbucks specialty "Reserve" facility they've opened if you have a chance to check it out.

Thanks again, Joel and, no worries on missing any great weather. It's cold, rainy and crappy here, just like Seattle. :-)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, I want to come back to Don's question about brewing...by cheating: Here is my blog post of French press. I also have detailed descriptions for making your own hand-pour coffee and for cold brewing.

Darkstar, I think that Baratza and Jura-Capresso both make good home grinders, while there are a lot of home-products companies that make burr grinders (in contrast to blade grinders) that are of middling quality or straight-up junk. Mazzer makes some very fine grinders, but they only make espresso grinders while the Baratza and Capresso's are good for grinding everything from home espresso to French press.

Our mail order web-site is here: freshofftheroast.com.  It is functional, if barely (any merchant site designers on this forum who work for coffee?) and lists all our current coffee offerings (when I update it in a timely fashion). You can order two bags and shipping is $5.70. Ordering more doesn't make shipping cheaper. We also have a subscription service if you want us to just send you two bags of coffee every two weeks. We get mail orders from all of the country (and from some military bases internationally), but I would say at least half our orders are from people in and around DC.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Rieux, Thanks for the Qualia love and thanks for asking about the impact of coffee rust. As I might have mentioned once or twice before, what I do as a roasters is entirely dependent on the hard work and diligence of farmers. So just a quick primer on coffee rust or what is also sometimes referred to coffee leaf disease. This has had a direct impact on farmers we work with as well as the industry in general. In the past decade, it has spread to through out the Americas and even to the Dominican Republic and Haiti. And as the earth warms up, it has begun to thrive at higher elevations where it used to be too cold for it to grow.

I have two specific examples of how it has impacted farmers we work with directly.

Three years ago we bought the entire crop (450 lbs) of coffee from a very small coffee farm in Nicaragua. The next year they produced three times as much coffee (we still bought 450 lbs and it was excellent). Last year, they had to destroy every coffee plant on the farm due to rust. While the farm was small, it was home to a dozen varietals of coffee. Most farms have just one, two or three varietals. They are replanting, but it's unlikely with the same diversity of plants.

For the past couple of years we have been getting beans from a small group of growers in Haiti's Artibonite regions. They grow two varietals in equal balance, Blue Moutain (it came to Haiti before making it's way to Jamaica, BTW) and Typica. While Blue Mountain is an interesting varietal, it doesn't really stand on its own self and really needs the typica to add some complexity. Unfortunately, last year coffee rust moved in and hit the typica plants hard. The good news was the Blue Mountain was much less effected. However, it threw off the delicate balance of the coffee we had the first year.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Darkstar, I like Victrola, aesthetically, but I am always a little underwhelmed by the cups of coffee I have had there. My rule for trying any place is that they offer single-origin coffee brewed by the cup and I generally don't get espresso, so I can't speak to their espresso program (I feel like espresso is well covered though). I would say the bulk of indie coffee shops, even those roasting their own tend to produce what I would describe as a inoffensive cup of coffee (I am working on a rating system). Victrola falls in that category. But I feel like the biggest issue I have with Victrola and other shops like it is a lack of freshness transparency, essentially not having it clearly stated what their freshness policy, how long from roast do they serve their coffee. Ironically, the Starbuck's Reserve Roastery does have a very clear policy on roast freshness, it is a really stupid one, but they do have one, more on that later.

When coffee was roasted is so important to how flavorful it is that I am really surprised that more independent coffee shops and roasters don't make more of an effort to make this information apparent to the customer or for that matter their staff. Often when I ask, the barista seem really confused by the question.

Ultimately, I find myself trying to guess how old the coffee is so that I can assess whether it is lacking in flavor from being old or poorly roasted.

Anyway, that is really my frustration and I have been to half a dozen or so shops since Victrola, only finding a couple that were noticeably different. Actually the cup I had at Stumptown roasters was indistinguishable from the one I had at Victrola.

After Victrola and a bite of lunch, we headed to the Starbucks Reserve Roastery, which located less than a block away. The place is kind of a circus crammed full of tourists (I posted a picture to instragram and couldn't manage to get a shot that didn't have a couple of other phototakers in the frame). They had four single-origin offerings to choose from, two they recommend brewed and two they recommend for espresso. I order an Ethiopia Yirgacheffe (brewed in a vacpot) and Brazil Mogiana (brewed in a Clover).

So, to their freshness policy: they let all of their beans rest for 7 days after roast before brewing them. While the barista was able to answer an impressive number of questions I had for him, he could not explain the logic of letting the coffee sit for so long before brewing, especially given that they still tend to roast the coffee on the dark side, which will also make the beans off-gas relatively quickly. It has been awhile since I have had a traditional cup of Starbucks coffee, but I would suspect that these were roasted a shade lighter, but still darker than would generally be considered optimal for highlighting the unique character of a single-origin lot.

My tab was over $20, so if Starbuck has learned anything from the indie coffee shops, it is how to overcharge. However, what I found particularly inexplicable about their pricing was that it was based on brewing method and not the bean. This seems like the antithesis of the specialty community's effort to highlight origin and the importance of paying farmers a living wage.

While it is clear they are still working out the kinks of that set up, I don't see it ever really supplanting indie coffee shops. The place still has a very corporate and out-of-touch feel to it and the barista, while friendly, did seem all that excited about the coffee they were serving.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Really, really interesting, Joel. FWIW, I entirely agree with your view on Victrola and your notion of the generally "inoffensive" cups available at most indies around the US. And, really interesting your take on the new SBUX Reserve Roastery. I don't imagine the national rollout of 150 or so differently-branded shops will be exact copies on the one you visited. Think they're using that as a bit of a test bed. Agree the tiered pricing by brewing method is a bit unusual relative to bean though a couple spots in DC (Chinatown being one) do that.

Anyway, this all prompts another question I'm hopeful others may also find interesting. I've thought for a few years that shops which roast on site and retail drinks tend to produce worse coffee than those who are more focused. By that I mean, I almost rather an indie shop choose a good roaster (or 3) with whom to partner and just ensure the beans are fresh and dated. Then they can focus on barista/brewer training. To me, Qualia is a huge exception in this regard that your coffees are so delicious, always fresh and interesting. Do you agree or disagree with this? Namely, that most independent shops would probably have better product if they weren't also trying to roast since so many muck it up?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks to Don, Darkstar, and Joel. This is a fascinating discussion; I drink coffee regularly, and one of the points that I commonly make to non-coffee drinkers is that coffee means something different to practically everybody. From the time I can remember until today, my parents, both now in their 70s, have drank either instant (if it was just the two of them) or preground drip coffee (for larger dinners/gatherings). They always, unfailingly, take milk in their coffee. For them, that is coffee, to the extent that when they come to visit us, we buy a small jar of Maxwell House. They won't drink what I make for myself--it's too fancy, too strong, or something. I've drank their coffee, and it has no connection to what I consider coffee.

Coffee for me is primarily three things: I use a Gaggia MDF grinder in the mornings to make coffee with my Aeropress; at work we have an Illy pod machine that I drink espressos from; and I have an old Solis espresso machine (I think that they called it an automatic, but its really more of a tempermental semiautomatic) that I use from time-to-time (or more appropriately said, for a few weeks until I get frustrated with it, and then it sits until I descale and start again). I buy beans in 12 oz aliquots, and do my best to preserve their freshness, but definitely end up using them up to 2-3 weeks after they have been roasted. The coffee definitely evolves.

That is all, I suppose, a long-winded way of asking my core questions:

1. You mentioned earlier, or on your blog, or somewhere, that you would apportion coffee into grindable servings, so as to preserve the quality as long as possible. Would you vacuum seal the portions, such as with a food saver bag? Or does the vacuum suck out too many volatiles and degrade the quality?

2. I love the aeropress for its speed and convenience; some mornings I have less than 5 minutes to heat water, grind beans and brew before I have to get out the door, or help my wife with our toddler, or something. I think that the aeropress makes a good cup under those circumstances. Is there another alternative that I should investigate, in your opinion?

3. One more question-sorry for bombarding you! It's about the terroir question, though, which I'm struggling a bit with. Are some varietals better produced in some parts of the world than others? Are some roast types (light, medium, dark) better with beans from South America, or Africa, etc.? I'm sure that I'm oversimplifying, but while I think that I could assume that California wine has its strengths with certain varietals, I've struggled to understand whether different coffee-growing regions also have core strengths.

Coffee is incredibly complex--there are the endless permutations of coffee flavor profiles depending upon the different flavor chemicals that are developed by the bean and during roasting, but in my view it's much more than that. With wine, you presumably have a winery that has experts overseeing the process from first budding, through growth, harvest, juicing, fermentation, aging, bottling, etc. With coffee, you have farms doing the growing, roasters doing the roasting, and then, for many of us, we are trying to figure out how to take these roasted beans and make the best cup of coffee from them given the equipment that we have. Sometimes I think that by the time I've figured out the right grind and extraction time my beans have started to decline in freshness. It's all a bit overwhelming, but loads of fun to experiment.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for another incisive observation. Going to as many coffee shops as you do, you probably have a wider breadth of knowledge than me in terms of real-world trends. So let me pose this to you. How many coffee shops do you go into that have an espresso machine, but don't really know how to use it. I mean they can make brown liquid come out from it, but it doesn't taste like anything that would generally recognized as true espresso. I'd wager there are far more places (not even including restaurants here) that own an espresso machine without not really knowing how to use it properly.

The number of coffee shops that have a roasting machine in house are far fewer, but the same principle applies. You can own a roaster and you can get brown beans to come out of it, but that is not the same thing as knowing how to use it to produce a proper roast. So it wouldn't be surprising to me on balance that the average coffee shop with roaster you walk into is producing bad coffee.

The second part of my answer is that there is a distinct advantage to not roasting in house so that you can focus attention on doing one thing, brewing great coffee. Trying to juggle the demands of a roasting operation and a storefront coffee house, which in many ways are at odds, is something I constantly struggle with. The only reason I chose this model was that I am, at heart, a roaster, but wanted to have better control over how my coffee was presented. Owning the coffee house also lets me focus my roast style on flavor and not shelf life.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Although I am working on a comprehensive travelogue of coffee shops I've visited on this trip, I do have a top four list I can share with you in response to Porcupine's requests.

Tougo Coffee, a multi roaster operation with two locations, one in the convention center (which I actually didn't get coffee from) and one on 18th Ave near Capitol Hill

Slate Coffee Roasters, a nationally ranked coffee company with a precious storefront in Ballard. Although their roast style doesn't appeal to my tastes, what they do they do really well.

Neptune Coffee in Greenwood is a multi roaster shop. It is spacious and nicely appointed with a quality selection of coffees.

Victrola Coffee on East Pike near downtown is worth the visit as a bedrock third wave roaster.

Mistead & Co is a more pretentious, less grounded alternative to Neptune Coffee, but it is a lot closer to central Seattle, so I will add that to the list as well.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for another incisive observation. Going to as many coffee shops as you do, you probably have a wider breadth of knowledge than me in terms of real-world trends. So let me pose this to you. How many coffee shops do you go into that have an espresso machine, but don't really know how to use it. I mean they can make brown liquid come out from it, but it doesn't taste like anything that would generally recognized as true espresso. I'd wager there are far more places (not even including restaurants here) that own an espresso machine without not really knowing how to use it properly.

The number of coffee shops that have a roasting machine in house are far fewer, but the same principle applies. You can own a roaster and you can get brown beans to come out of it, but that is not the same thing as knowing how to use it to produce a proper roast. So it wouldn't be surprising to me on balance that the average coffee shop with roaster you walk into is producing bad coffee.

The second part of my answer is that there is a distinct advantage to not roasting in house so that you can focus attention on doing one thing, brewing great coffee. Trying to juggle the demands of a roasting operation and a storefront coffee house, which in many ways are at odds, is something I constantly struggle with. The only reason I chose this model was that I am, at heart, a roaster, but wanted to have better control over how my coffee was presented. Owning the coffee house also lets me focus my roast style on flavor and not shelf life.

If Don's platform allowed me to "like" the same post multiple times, this one would be multi-liked, er, loved. As to your question about how many shops with espresso machines seem to produce a fairly vile brown liquid, my answer would be "tons," "way too many" and others more profane. It's very frustrating. In a small New England university town today, we chose the "best" of four shops in town. The only one that even brews to order. A roaster/retailer known in these parts and very popular. Ordered a Costa Rican and a Yirgachaffe by pourover. Watched them brew them. More or less right! Carefully ground and weighed. Pre infused. And, undrinkably bitter and flat at the same time. They also tasted too similar. I think very old beans, over roasted (supposedly medium roast) or both. Sigh.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Don's platform allowed me to "like" the same post multiple times, this one would be multi-liked, er, loved. 

Agreed, and I also want to thank Joel for writing his thoughtful answers while being jostled to-and-fro, rattling around between Washington, DC and Washington, Seattle.

Joel, I hope you're enjoying this, and are treating it as a relaxed-casual thing (which it's supposed to be). I'll be leaving this chat up for awhile after we finish, and we can go on for as long as you'd like - I am *so* glad we got Darkstar to host this, as his knowledge of and passion for coffee and coffee houses leaves mine in the dust, although in terms of "passion for," you two are revving me up like two shots of espresso.

Did you know that in France, they call it "expresso?" I suspect that's why you sometimes see it written like that.

Is the "paper cup situation" a problem, or is it just a given nuisance that we must accept?

How important is water in the roasting and brewing process? In case anyone is rolling their eyes right now, let me at least present this blog piece: "The biggest problem in the coffee trade ... is water" on caffecultureshow.com.

What is the biggest problem facing Qualia? Does it have to do with coffee, or does it have to do with business? I suspect it may be "getting your coffee in front of people," but I'm not going to answer for you.

Thank you again, Joel, for this wonderful and engaging chat - I know there hasn't been much participation, or even viewership, but I don't care, because it's going to be here forever as an invaluable learning tool and source of entertainment. The chief end of literature is "to instruct and delight," and you're doing a splendid job at both.

Readers, listen up! The best way you can thank Joel for the time he's spending with us would be to go into Qualia and try his product. The second-best way would be to ask a question on this chat - surely there's a coffee-related question you've always wanted to know the answer to; if not, then think about it for 15 seconds, and it won't be difficult to formulate one <--- that was actually a lame attempt at a pun on Formula One.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Welcome to the chat SVT and thanks for you questions and clear passion for coffee, in all forms. Just to clarify a point from you set up for any readers, a manual espresso machine uses a hand operated pump to force water through a tightly packed puck of coffee at high pressure, a semiautomatic machine uses an electric pump to do so at nine bars of atmospheric pressure, an automatic machine uses a volumetric pump that measures the amount of water to use for you and a superautomatic does all that plus grinds and tamps the puck for you.

Now to your questions.

  1. Vacuum storage for coffee beans is generally discouraged because as you note, placing the beans in a vacuum coaxes volatile compounds out of the beans where they are potentially more susceptible to oxidization. But it's worth noting, that if you put fresh roasted coffee into an air tight container, CO2 gas will build up in the container. Unless the coffee was just roasted, it's unlikely to break open your container, but you should hear a little pop as the gas release when you open it.

  2. The Aeropress is a really great option for traveling and for convenience and it would not be a big leap from how you are brewing with that to brewing manual drip in the morning. You would still be heating up your water, grinding fresh beans and then brewing, but drip coffee takes closer to 4 minutes of brewing time, so maybe some days when you have more like ten minutes to get out the door. While I have generally discouraged the use of autodrip machines, seeing them as a relatively expensive option that rarely work well, touring the SCAA expo floor this past few days, I can safely say there are a number of new, coffee-geek approved, automatic brewers, that while still pricey, actually make a very good cup of coffee.

  3. In terms of struggling with the concept of terrior in coffee, you are in good company, we all do. While the science explaining the interplay between varietal and environment has evolved greatly, there is still so much that we don't know. In that sense, we are very reliant on the experience and experimentation of growers. To give an example, the Colombian government has widely promoted the use of a coffee tree varietal called castillo. However, after a couple years of distributing castillo widely, it became evident that while the trees thrive in Colombia, the beans they produce are less flavorful than some of the less productive trees that grow beside them. Another thing that the growers are learning about and experimenting with is fermentation times, how long coffee cherries are left to sit in water and ferment before the beans are removed and sun dried. So while terrior and choice of varietal are obviously very important, they are only part of the equation.

Which really segues into your final comment, because all things being equal in the growing and milling process, we still have ample opportunity to succeed or fail in the roasting and brewing process. But, I firmly believe that what makes coffee really fascinating (interesting enough to dedicate a career to, at least) is the way it constantly changes, potentially morphing into something even more interesting and tantalizing. Instead of worrying about whether I have made the best cup of coffee, I much prefer to enjoy the coffee as it is in my cup that day. If it tastes different, not better or worse, just different the next day, I will enjoy the new flavors I am experiencing.

I see this as the tragedy of Starbucks and other large-scale roasters for whom consistency is more important than revealing the changing nature of coffee, which is more like fresh produce than most people realize.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Darkstar, your last question could not come at a better time. One of the great things for me about traveling is getting to try coffee I didn't roast and to see things from the customers' side of counter. We went to a lot of coffee shops this past week (see travelogue) and drank a lot of different coffee from a lot of different roasters. And I have come away with a new perspective and perhaps even some new understanding.

But first I need to explain my perspective on roasting. There are definitely wrong ways to roast coffee, but there isn't one right way. Each roaster has their own signature that defines the broad strokes, like acidity and body, of their coffee and within that signature, each of us is trying to bring out as much of the subtle complexity and distinction of that particular bean.

The classic "strong coffee" signature is defined by dark roasting with lots of toasty roast flavor often with some underlying chocolate notes and maybe a full bodied mouth feel.

The new wave "floral coffee" signature is defined by tons of acidity, very light body and generally citrus and tea-like undertones.

There is a third type of roast signature, one which I strive to exemplify with Qualia, which finds a balance between these to extremes. Our signature is marked by a mild acidity, medium bodied with both chocolate and floral notes in evidence.

So, why are the two extremes so dominate in the market, while the middle path is so rare? This is a question I still struggle with after all these years in the business. I believe that the first roast signature represents the limitations of large-scale roasting and the fact that dark roasted coffee has a much, much longer shelf life than lighter roasts. But the second signature seems more like a knee-jerk reaction to the first, an effort to distinguish the new wave from the old guard, than a comprehensive, unified theory of roasting.

In all honesty, I chose the middle path, not out of some grand principle, but because the other two roast styles simply don't appeal to my sense of taste. So to paraphrase SVT: good is in the taste buds of the drinker.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Vacuum storage for coffee beans is generally discouraged because as you note, placing the beans in a vacuum coaxes volatile compounds out of the beans where they are potentially more susceptible to oxidization

Joel, if volatile compounds have been sucked from the the beans, what difference does it make if they oxidize? Are they still hanging around the space in-between? Also, how can they oxidize if they're in a vacuum and hence not in the presence of oxygen.

Okay, okay! So I'm a nuisance! But at least I'm paying attention! :)

My question also extends and extrapolates to freezing beans which you addressed here. I suspect your answer is based on experience, and not any sort of rigorous testing or tasting, is this correct? If so, then how confident are you with your answer? Freezing is actually a shockingly effective way to preserve (inexpensive) wine (and yes, you can even microwave it). This is obviously not something you want to play around with when it comes to expensive bottles, however.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...

In terms of struggling with the concept of terrior in coffee, you are in good company, we all do. While the science explaining the interplay between varietal and environment has evolved greatly, there is still so much that we don't know. In that sense, we are very reliant on the experience and experimentation of growers. To give an example, the Colombian government has widely promoted the use of a coffee tree varietal called castillo. However, after a couple years of distributing castillo widely, it became evident that while the trees thrive in Colombia, the beans they produce are less flavorful than some of the less productive trees that grow beside them. Another thing that the growers are learning about and experimenting with is fermentation times, how long coffee cherries are left to sit in water and ferment before the beans are removed and sun dried. So while terrior and choice of varietal are obviously very important, they are only part of the equation.

Which really segues into your final comment, because all things being equal in the growing and milling process, we still have ample opportunity to succeed or fail in the roasting and brewing process. But, I firmly believe that what makes coffee really fascinating (interesting enough to dedicate a career to, at least) is the way it constantly changes, potentially morphing into something even more interesting and tantalizing. Instead of worrying about whether I have made the best cup of coffee, I much prefer to enjoy the coffee as it is in my cup that day. If it tastes different, not better or worse, just different the next day, I will enjoy the new flavors I am experiencing.

I see this as the tragedy of Starbucks and other large-scale roasters for whom consistency is more important than revealing the changing nature of coffee, which is more like fresh produce than most people realize.

Thanks so much for the reply. I hadn't even considered the fermentation time of the whole bean prior to drying as another factor--good gracious is this complex! I suppose to some extent, chocolate could be an analog, in that both are agricultural products with several post-harvest processing steps that play a huge role in the final flavor and quality. I'm sure that there are other examples, as well.

Your point about coffee being closer to fresh produce than most would consider is a good one, as well; the freshly picked vine-ripened tomato is (for me) enough to eat on its own, perhaps with a little salt. After a few days, it still is fantastic but blends nicely with mozzarella, basil and balsamic in a caprese. After a week or longer, it can still make a fantastic quick sauce, a gazpacho, or a salsa. All great, but all showing the change in flavor and other characteristics as the chemistry changes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks so much for the reply. I hadn't even considered the fermentation time of the whole bean prior to drying as another factor--good gracious is this complex! I suppose to some extent, chocolate could be an analog, in that both are agricultural products with several post-harvest processing steps that play a huge role in the final flavor and quality. I'm sure that there are other examples, as well.

Your point about coffee being closer to fresh produce than most would consider is a good one, as well; the freshly picked vine-ripened tomato is (for me) enough to eat on its own, perhaps with a little salt. After a few days, it still is fantastic but blends nicely with mozzarella, basil and balsamic in a caprese. After a week or longer, it can still make a fantastic quick sauce, a gazpacho, or a salsa. All great, but all showing the change in flavor and other characteristics as the chemistry changes.

Comment and question for Joel prompted by your interesting exchange, SVT. It's about the analogues since I think them critical for communicating and understanding a still very much evolving drink.

Joel, you liken coffee's characteristics and challenges to produce. I understand that of course since a coffee cherry/bean is, itself, a fruit. But, I've always liked the wine analogy better since, like coffee, it isn't fruit but, rather, a complex drink made from a fruit (grapes). Unlike say, bananas, bell peppers or lettuce, coffee requires real skill, equipment, knowledge and experience to convert fruit to a delicious but multifaceted beverage. From marketing and consumer education standpoints, wine is better understood as dependent on harvest-time weather, terroir, storage and numerous winemaker decisions before it goes into the bottle. With wine, there is boxed, mass-market stuff as there is for coffee in grocery and other mass market channels. Great wines benefit from great writing and interpretation like Don or Jerry Dawes can do. Coffee, which may be still developing its own Robert Parker type guides, benefits from expert interpretation and education as we see you can do here on this very thread.

Maybe the upstream stuff (farming, harvesting, processing and even roasting) is more easily compared to general produce but downstream (brewing, serving, pricing, cupping, packaging, distributing) is more analagous to wine? What do you think, Joel? Maybe it depends on what one is trying to explain or teach or sell?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh, no, Don! Now you have invoked my inner science nerd. It's true the water used to brew your coffee is vital. We tend to get focused on the new coffee gadget and sometimes forget about the fundamentals. We have a pretty sophisticated water filtration system at Qualia and I would never dream of brewing coffee without filtered water or spring water, but I'm sure lots of our customers are out there using tap water (boiling fixes it, right?) or even distilled water and wondering why their coffee doesn't taste like it did at the shop. DC tap water especially is high in lead and just yields a very poor extraction.

In terms of freezing, again Don is correct that the science isn't in on this, although a number of people have done formal and informal studies which offer something of a consensus, not necessarily that freezing in inherently harmful, but that it just doesn't seem to help. One fairly rigorous examination suggested that freezing coffee immediately after roasting did help preserve the coffee a couple extra weeks. My personal philosophy is that fresh roasted coffee does a really good job of preserving itself and it seems easier to enjoy it within that window of time than to resort to questionable gimmicks to add a few days to its shelf life.

Many of the volatile compounds are held in fats, coffee oils that in a light roast remain inside the bean and with a dark roast leak out on to the surface. Theoretically, the vacuum would pull these oils from inside the bean where they are protected toward the outside where they can potentially be exposed to oxygen. Even if kept in an airless environment, once you open that package, the volatile compounds will very quickly oxidize. It seems like a lot of the packaging methods designed to preserve coffee, also make it more susceptible once you open them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 It seems like a lot of the packaging methods designed to preserve coffee, also make it more susceptible once you open them.  

Boy isn't this the truth. I *hate* those damned bags you have to saw open with a steak knife because then there's a hole in them. What do they expect us to do? They're like that clam-shell hard-plastic packaging CDs used to have.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey Darkstar, I'm not sure there is really any perfect analogy for coffee. There are so many variables in each step along the way from growing to harvesting to processing to shipping to roasting to brewing, that is sometimes almost seems overwhelming. I guess that is really where human intellect and experience come into play. I mean I have made plenty mistakes over the past eight years. I've bought coffee from the wrong people, stored coffee improperly, roasted through half a bag of coffee before finding the right profile, and other boneheaded moves. But hopefully I have learned from those mistakes and now know many of the warning signs to avoid them.

In a sense it is true there is any number of things that can get messed up in the brewing process, but my experience has been that when roasted reasonable well and used when still relatively fresh, brewing doesn't have to be super precise, the coffee will still shine through. True you may be able to brew it better, but it can still be good without a whole lot of fuss.

One of the reasons that I have adopted the fresh produce analogy for roasted coffee is that for so long roasters have promoted the idea that coffee was a bulk good that had unlimited shelf life. In that sense, it is analogous to spinach or tomatoes in that it's possible to extend their shelf life by sacrificing their natural complexity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One of the reasons that I have adopted the fresh produce analogy for roasted coffee is that for so long roasters have promoted the idea that coffee was a bulk good that had unlimited shelf life. In that sense, it is analogous to spinach or tomatoes in that it's possible to extend their shelf life by sacrificing their natural complexity. 

To continue the wine analogy, there was (is) a related, but different problem: distributors treat wine like liquor. Some wine, the really "fine" wines, do indeed have a long, long shelf life - years if not decades, *but* you can't subject it to 80-degree temperatures, or you'll ruin it. In other words, it's fermented and alive; not distilled and dead.

Sorry for the plug for my pet drink!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...