European Countries, Asian Countries, the Caucasus, and Get Off My Lawn

[Ericandblueboy]

On 4/13/2016 at 9:32 PM, JoshNE said:

I guess the small plates journey didn't go well.

I haven't done that but I've had his food At Union Mkt, Maketto pop-up and Toki. His "genius" continues to intrigue me but leave me confounded. My point though is that we all sometimes have no basis to judge a foreign cuisine. And I've admitted as much in my own write-ups.

Rest assured, your input will be put to good use.

Let me share a recent example. David Chang introduced the pork belly bun to New York. It was greeted enthusiastically by many non-Chinese/Taiwanese Manhattanites but the Chinese/Taiwanese knew that he had just introduced traditional Chinese/Taiwanses food to a new audience. He didn't create it or perfect it, he just presented it to a new audience, like he introduced ramen. Now ramen and buns are everywhere. Are Chang's ramen and buns still world class? In my opinion, no and never were. And Bruner-Yang isn't iron chef Taiwan. He's just another opportunist. Good for him but don't mistake him for anything more than that.

And I've heard from many Chinese that they wouldn't eat at Peter Chang's because they think he's making American Chinese food. Misinformation obviously goes both ways.

[bettyjoan]

On 4/13/2016 at 9:26 PM, Ericandblueboy said:

The fried donut stick and soy milk aren't desserts. What they're doing on the dessert menu is beyond me. Mr. Bruner-Yang is peddling Taiwanese cooking at fine dining prices to uninitiated diners. Sadly, there are Taiwanese restaurants in the DC area but not in hipster neighborhoods. So I'd discount somewhat anything said about anything done by Mr. Bruner-Yang.

EDITED to clarify my post.

I'll certainly cop to being uninitiated (to Taiwanese cooking, not to food in general), but I don't really understand why you would automatically discount others' opinions in the way you indicate above.  Sure, if someone makes a statement about authenticity and you have expertise/knowledge to argue the point, go right on ahead - I feel like that would at least be an interesting, productive conversation.  But I was just saying that I thought just about everything was delicious.

Or, in other words:

[Josh]

On 4/13/2016 at 9:34 PM, Ericandblueboy said:

I haven't done that but I've had his food At Union Mkt, Maketto pop-up and Toki. His genius continues to intrigue me but leave me confounded. My point though is that we all sometimes have no basis to judge a foreign cuisine. And I've admitted as much in my own write-ups.

Rest assured, your input will be put to good use.

Let me share a recent example. David Chang introduced the pork belly bun to New York. It was greeted enthusiastically by many non-Chinese/Taiwanese Manhattanites but the Chinese/Taiwanese knew that he had just introduced traditional Chinese/Taiwanses food to a new audience. He didn't create it or perfect it, he just presented it to a new audience, like he introduced ramen. Now ramen and buns are everywhere. Are Chang's ramen and buns still world class? In my opinion, no and never was. And Bruner-Yang isn't iron chef Taiwan. He's just another opportunist. Good for him but don't mistake him for anything more than that.

Damn those opportunist chefs, cooking and selling food that people find delicious! What are they trying to do - open businesses and make profit? 

[Ericandblueboy]

On 4/13/2016 at 10:22 PM, JoshNE said:

Damn those opportunist chefs, cooking and selling food that people find delicious! What are they trying to do - open businesses and make profit?

My point is there are restaurants making that delicious food already in the DC market but you don't eat there because they're not hip and not In your hood. In the mean time, people sing the praises of Bruner-Yang to my chagrin.

Sadly this forum doesn't reach deep enough to ethnic communities. I'd love to hear opinions from Thais, Laos,Ethiopians, etc. so we can put a proper perspective on the local restaurants.

[Josh]

On 4/13/2016 at 10:27 PM, Ericandblueboy said:

My point is there are restaurants making that delicious food already in the DC market but you don't eat there because they're not hip and not In your hood. In the mean time, people sing the praises of Bruner-Yang to my chagrin.

Don't I?  Are you sure?

Could it be that there is room for more than one level of restaurant for a given category of cuisine?

[Ericandblueboy]

On 4/13/2016 at 10:33 PM, JoshNE said:

Don't I? Are you sure?

Could it be that there is room for more than one level of restaurant for a given category of cuisine?

I'm not sure about you personally. How many dishes have you had at Bob's in Rockville? Their menu is like 3 single spaced pages and there're more on the wall. Chinese cooking exists at all levels. I've had 3 Michelin star Chinese food. But Bruner-Yang's cooking isn't better than Bob's, that much I'm certain off. Both are delicious, but one does not warrant more praise than the other.

Some Chinese people think McDonald's is awesome. So is McDonald's awesome? Bruner-Yang to Bob is like Burger King to McDonald's. Actually, on a good day, Bob is like Minetta Tavern to Bruner-Yang's Big Mac.

[Josh]

On 4/13/2016 at 10:40 PM, Ericandblueboy said:

I'm not sure about you personally. How many dishes have you had at Bob's in Rockville? Their menu is like 3 single spaced pages and there're more on the wall. Chinese cooking exists at all levels. I've had 3 Michelin star Chinese food. But Bruner-Yang's cooking isn't better than Bob's, that much I'm certain off. Both are delicious, but one does not warrant more praise than the other.

I've eaten at Bob's probably half a dozen times in the past 2 years.  I've eaten dinner at Maketto 3 times.  Take a look at the first time I went to Bob's...I posted about it. Great food, but really shitty service.  The food was good though, so I've been back again and again.  There is no ambiance to speak of, and I can't get a cocktail or interesting beer.

They are not aiming for the same thing, and that's great.  One needn't diminish one to praise the other.

[Ericandblueboy]

On 4/13/2016 at 10:50 PM, JoshNE said:

I've eaten at Bob's probably half a dozen times in the past 2 years. I've eaten dinner at Maketto 3 times. Take a look at the first time I went to Bob's...I posted about it. Great food, but really shitty service. The food was good though, so I've been back again and again. There is no ambiance to speak of, and I can't get a cocktail or interesting beer.

They are not aiming for the same thing, and that's great. One needn't diminish one to praise the other.

I was only talking about the food. Why does Bob's service suck? Because there aren't enough hipsters praising their food! Think about it, Peter Chang has an English speaking staff because of publicity in the English speaking press. Peter Chang may soon hire a mixologist if he realizes how much more praise he'd get for having one! I wasn't praising Bob over Bruner-Yang initially, just saying the latter doesn't deserve more praise than Bob's. But now that I've thought it over, Bob's foods is better.

I've enjoyed this discussion.

[lion]

On 4/13/2016 at 10:27 PM, Ericandblueboy said:

My point is there are restaurants making that delicious food already in the DC market but you don't eat there because they're not hip and not In your hood. In the mean time, people sing the praises of Bruner-Yang to my chagrin.

Sadly this forum doesn't reach deep enough to ethnic communities. I'd love to hear opinions from Thais, Laos,Ethiopians, etc. so we can put a proper perspective on the local restaurants.

I think Ericandblueboy raises a good point here which unfortunately gets drowned out in this thread by making direct comparisons between certain restaurants. 

Sometimes when ethnic food is presented to a wider audience, it is presented as something new. Or it can get 'cleaned up' for new palates. Or it looses it's freshness to fit into a western dining time frame. When any of these happen, there is something lost and if there are existing restaurants with many years of experience at providing authentic  cuisines, they tend to be well more authentic and usually taste better.  

That being said one of these days would like to try Maketto. 

[DonRocks]

Eric said the same thing years ago about Bangkok Golden vs. Little Serow, and he was more correct than many give him credit for - and I *love* Little Serow. Then look what happened when Thip Khao opened.

I've been saying the same thing my entire career about Passage to India vs. Rasika. Rasika is the most Westernized Indian food I've ever seen outside of London, and if it wasn't for *one person*, it wouldn't even be all that popular.

I remember very well Mark Kuller positing that Asian food should command the same prices as European food (my response: "Well, doesn't Japanese?"), and that he saw the light when he went to Pok Pok, thus helping to inspire him to open Doi Moi (having Haidar Kharoum as his chef didn't hurt either). Mark even posted here once, soliciting peoples' opinions on the subject, although I can't remember where.

A lot of old-school, traditional Asian restaurants throw on MSG like they're trying to cure cancer with it, use disgusting quantities of rancid oil, and have dead fish floating on top of their seafood tanks.

The harsh reality is that French technique really *is* (or certainly was) far superior than just about every cuisine's in the world - look at the way they carve a chicken, for example. Go to Kinship, and see what you get when you order the roast chicken for two; then go to Full Kee, and listen to the cleaver pounding against the cutting board in the kitchen - you'll get floppy skin and bones in every single bite.

I offer no answers, but this conversation merits attention. [This topic is becoming much broader in scope than Maketto.]

[ylkim30]

I have never been to a traditional, old-school Asian restaurant before. What type of food do they serve there?

I have been to many traditional, old-school Korean, Chinese, Taiwanese, Japanese, and Thai restaurants, and never get food with rancid oil doused with msg.

I have been to many bad, Americanized Chinese, Korean, and Thai restaurants and chain pan-Asian restaurants catering to a fast-food audience that use bad oil and excessive msg, but I would not call them traditional or old school. It's unfortunate that folks who never had good Chinese, Korean, or Thai food think that is what people frown those countries eat, and use those bad examples as the measure of the quality of those cuisines.

[sandynva]

I've never been to maketto, but hope to. that being said, I 1) agree with lion's point above and 2) would be interested in learning about other, more authentic places in the area serving Taiwanese food if anyone has any reccs. 

i also wanted to respond to another comment above about rasika having westernized indian food. I've said it before and i'll say it again--i disagree with this, i'd actually say that in many ways they are one of the less westernized places around. yes, the plating is western, and the heat level is mild. but so many of the flavors are actually more traditional than the typical north indian place here--the mustard greens in the saag has the same flavors (although more muted) as a  traditional punjabi dish (of pure mustard greens) which i haven't seen on local menus. the use of amchur for sourness rather than lemon like many places. their gujarati lasagna is admittedly new in presentation, but the kadi is straight out of a gujarati home, and i haven't seen another place do it as well since nirvana closed. they used to have a dish of kofta in a chickpea flour kadi, basically a version of the gujarati home dish of rasia dhokla, a dish i've never seen on another restaurant menu, even in new jersey. a version of the palak chaat was a popular "fancy" dish at dinner parties when i was growing up. And this is just the stuff i've noticed, because as a gujarati  i'm just more attuned to those flavors,my guess is that people from other parts of india have noticed similar things. some of my bengali friends have praised a fish dish with mustard oil (sorry, don't remember which one it is). My husband, raised in an east indian/goan family was delighted to see something with "bottle masala" on the menu-he says he's never seen that on a menu before. I agree that Tom S' praise for it is insane--has he never been to new jersey?--but I think it's excellent and deserves kudos for presenting something other than the normal (and usually mediocre) palak paneer/chicken tikka/chole stuff. 

[Simul Parikh]

I've been to Maketto once, and liked it, and have been to Bob's and liked it, but they are so different. 

I think what's being said above is infantilizing to Asian culture and Asian food, and yes, Asia is more than one country, but we are talking about more than one of them.

Authenticity is one marker of good food but not the only one, and there are many components of it. You want authentic food that most Indian people eat and in the setting they eat it in? Okay, picture yourself in the grass in rural Gujarat, off of a dirt road. You're in a clay hut with a five foot ceiling. You have one buffalo for milk and nothing else to call your own. You have access to the milk from that cow to make tea. You make rotla (a thick corn rotli), some daal, with some chili, and maybe some rice if you have the money for it. And guess what? You eat that every single day, basically, for the rest of your life. That's what the majority of them are eating every meal, 1-2 a day. That's authentic. Doesn't make it great, in any way. But it's authentic. They don't grow past 5'5" and they die at 57 years of age, but hey, it's the real deal. It's what the people actually eat there. So, should our restaurants be serving that? I hope not. I used to love my dad's servant in India, and when I visited, we would hang out all the time. He wasn't allowed to eat with us in the house, and I thought it was stupid. So, I ate my meals with him. Made my point, but certainly didn't think the food was all that, and eventually he was allowed to join us (he never would, too embarrassed... he died in his late 50s). 

There is an aspect of the negative about Rasika, and Don (maybe others) says one person basically created the myth, but that's not true. It's just not. I'm Indian American. My friends go there all the time - for special events, for taking out of town people out, for graduations (try to get a table in May), and we love it. It's not completely "authentic". But that's not Indian food. Go to India right now and go to a restaurant where their versions of hipsters are eating. They are eating at INDIAN restaurants that serve "Chinese" food, that serve "Thai" food. These food items share very little with actual Chinese food or Thai food, but also very little with authentic Indian food, yet that's what it is, and it is what India - an amalgamation of India, other countries, modern, ancient, the common and the rare. That's the authenticity of it. Many people focus on just the "Indian, ancient, and common" as authentic, but that's incomplete and wrong. I usually don't say someone's opinion is wrong, but I think what some people are saying about authenticity is wrong. You're saying that Asian foods and culinary preparation doesn't compare to French and Europe, and then you have someone like the Chef at Rasika attempting to recreate that, doing a damn good job, and then the complaint is that it isn't authentic, that it's too westernized? Which one do you want? Do you want it to remain "authentic" or do you want it to become elevated? I've taken several people who lived in India recently, and almost all of them were blown away, and PROUD (and it gives me chills, a bit, about how proud they were). It's like an Indian immigrant who came from nothing but a meager peasant town who comes to America and sees his son become a pretty talented oncologist (thanks, Dad). I read a recent travel review of Delhi (it was people covering Prince William and Kate's one week trip to India), and they were talking about PALAK CHAAAT!!! Dude, that wasn't there before. It may have been some random thing you'd see once in a while. But, now it's a thing. Because it was cool in America, so it came to India, and then they are going to do what they do to it - Indianize it, and make it amazing. 

French country cuisine had it's roots from peasants from a 1000 years ago. These French restaurants aren't copying what those people did, they are elevating it. Sure, if France still had third world pockets (real third world, not our Western conception of it), I'm sure someone on this board would say "oh, well Bistro XXXX or Metier or Bastille are so inauthentic. you should go over to France and have the real stuff." But, no. Nobody wants food that is prepared just for survival, with technique, and art, and flavor being less important that getting enough protein, fat, and carbohydrates to let your neurons develop and your body grow so you can go to work, find a spouse, and reproduce. 

Europe had thousands of years to go from food for survival to food as art. India and China are just having it's parts of it's billions leaving the middle class. They are finally not eating rotla and dal on the side of dirt road. They are changing it up, they are modernizing. They are learning how to read. They are going to culinary school. They have enough money to go get a latte now, when before that money had to be spent on pure survival. They have disposable income. They can go for careers like culinary, because before that wasn't a career - that was how you made it past your 30s and survived. You're watching the transition right now from peasant food to elevated food. It's jarring. It's confusing. But I think it's pretty insulting to consistently here about how this and that place isn't authentic, when there is so much more to that word that a crappy hole in the wall with spicy food. 

[Josh]

Thank you, Simul.  I find "authenticity" very often wielded as a cudgel in food discussions (not at all limited to this board and its participants) when dealing with non-European cuisines.  The description of your own experience is powerful.

And since the thread title includes my favorite pastime - telling folks to get off my lawn, let me say one more thing:

Enough with "hipsters."  If a surgeon, father of 2 in his late 30s who quite literally drives a station wagon now qualifies as being described as a "hipster," then certainly the term has lost all useful meaning.

[Smita Nordwall]

Love this discussion, thanks everyone. Also love that Gujjus are taking over DR.  Sandynva, Simul Parikh, chaalo jamvaa jaiye.  

[sandynva]

reading these comments it seems to me that "authentic" is often used interchangeably with "traditional" and it shouldn't be. very few indian restaurants here are, strictly speaking, traditional. i looove woodlands, but i have some south indian friends who rant about how serving dosas, traditionally a breakfast food, at dinner, is just wrong. and they don't ever seem to serve food on banana leaves. but i wouldn't call woodlands non-authentic because of these things. not 100% traditional, yes. most north indian restaurants serve dishes from a variety of indian cuisines--chole from punjab, hydrabadi biryani etc. in india this is far less likely as these are different cuisines--it's like seeing cassoulet and pasta on the same menu. and biryani in particular is often made at biryani only places by people whose families have cooked biryani professionally for generations. so really, any place serving a mishmash of dishes (or possibly even giving customers forks) is bucking tradition, but i don't think that means the food is inauthentic. As Simul mentioned indian food isn't just the dhabas or home cooking, and while there's fusion (indo-chinese rocks!) there's also just more modernized food, and there has been for a while. for at least 35 years, each time i've been to india we were taken to at least a couple of  restaurants where we had what i'd characterize as "modern indian cuisine", traditional flavors and techniques, but for example they have appetizers and food presented in courses (not really a traditional indian thing) or might make things with mushrooms, which many people traditionally shunned. If you told most of the patrons (or my relatives that took us there) that the food wasn't authentic, or was somehow less indian than the dhabas or street vendors, they would've laughed at you. but they'd agree that they weren't the most traditional places. 

authentic is so tricky, especially in places where there has been a lot of western influence for a lot of time. For example, my husband's family makes marzipan, breaded lamb cutlets, and all sorts of breads. i think a lot of people who claim rasika isn't authentic would think those dishes aren't authentic. but goans and east indians have made them for hundreds of years. similarly, there are all sorts of anglo-indian things around --cutlets, mulligatany soup among others-- they're clearly the result of cultures mixing but they've been eaten in india for hundreds of years. are those authentic? it's just so hard. 

And i have to agree with Simul on another thing--my parents, their friends, and many of my indian friends all love rasika. I don't think i've ever heard any of them claim it wasnt authentic. 

[Simul Parikh]

Not completely related to the topic, but I was talking to a restaurant owner about the trajectory of ethnic food, and he explained it to me on a spectrum, and I thought it was a neat way to categorize.

1. A food item/cuisine starts off in specialty grocery stores or in that ____-town. I.e. having to go to some specific grocery store in a suburb of LA to find Sriracha in the 1970s or to K-Town to get bulgogi.

2. Then, you can find the type of cuisine in other, international but not chain neighborhood grocery stores or the restaurants pop up outside of that specific neighborhood. Sriracha being in H-Mart and Great Wall. Peking Gourmet popping up in Falls Church.

3. Then, if it's in a product, it's now in regular grocery stores and that cuisine is now going finer dining. Think Sriracha being at Safeway and Passage to India opening with it's pretty decor and elegance.

4. Then, that product hits the mainstream and becomes common, and if it's a cuisine it either has fast casual options or chains open up. Now Sriracha is in everybody's fridge and random non-Asian restaurants serve it as a condiment. Cava Mezze for Middle Eastern and PF Chang's for "Chinese". 

5. Finally, it becomes completely co-opted by corporate America and becomes a huge massive fast food franchise. Think Sriracha Frito's Lays Chips and Taco Bell. 

I think Thai and Indian food is solidly 3, on the cusp of 4. Korean has entered 4. Italian, Mexican definitely 5. Regional Chinese in 2, still (like Uighur, Hunan)  

[lion]

I'm currently reading The Secret of the Nages, the second novel in the Shiva Trilogy. The first two books in the trilogy have been a very fast read and encapsulates a lot of philosophies and religious thoughts from many different texts. The popularity of the trilogy is impressive but understandable. Tripathi's novelization makes it very approachable. However it is not authentic as the original texts which at the very least are written in a different language, i.e. the intended audience is different.

There is nothing wrong with using the word authentic to describe cuisine. Of course one word is not the entire shebang. Its an easy way to identify a history of experiences which in this case would identify a restaurant that makes a food for many years that suddenly has become popular versus one that is new.

Having watched this year's season of Master Chef India, it is clear with the growing middle class and it's relative youthful age, "Indian" food is taking a large step forward as techniques and ingredients are added to the repertoire that have never been there before. But, as is, Asian food with it's thousands of years of experience, is just as complex as French cooking and it's techniques.

I'm not a fan of Rasika, but then again, I rather not eat Indian food outside the house. Rasika for special occasions is fine, just like before going to the Bombay Club.

[Tweaked]

An interesting article from this week's City Paper:  D.C.'s Thai Chefs Can Finally Showcase Pungent, Spicy Flavors on Their Menus

Some nuggets:

When chef Aulie Bunyarataphan and her husband opened their first restaurant, T.H.A.I. in Shirlington, in 1995, she introduced fermented Isaan sausage to the menu and was promptly lectured by Americans on what actual Thai food is. "I was told this dish is not Thai. Thailand doesn't have sausage," Bunyarataphan says of customers' reactions at the time. "They don't know, and they're afraid to try it too, so we took it off."

And then there's the fact that one of the city's top chefs (Komi's Johnny Monis) began serving no-holds-barred Thai food at Little Serow in 2011. After Thai X-ing, the restaurant was many Washingtonians' first introduction to some of the spicier, funkier flavors of Thai food, even though some Thai chefs quibble over whether some dishes are 100 percent "authentic."

Beau Thai and BKK Cookshop chef Aschara Vigsittaboot is happy to see Thai food catch on. The only thing that feels weird to her is when restaurants, like Andy Ricker's Pok Pok which she visited in New York, romanticize street food by making their dining rooms look kind of gritty - an aesthetic that could be charitably described as shack chic. "If you want to bring that kind of Thai food here, it should be in a better way," she says.

Heat levels, however, continue to be a hot-button issue for the restaurants. Vigsittaboot says she gets a little annoyed when diners ask for a dish to be prepared "Thai spicy." "Some Thai people, they don't eat that spicy. Some Thai people eat very spicy like me," she says.

[Poivrot Farci]

On 4/10/2016 at 9:43 AM, Ericandblueboy said:

Based on the above photo, I went and had their bouillabaisse.  My favorite part of the dish were the calamari rings - I don't know what they did to infuse flavor into those tender squid bodies but they were fantastic.  The mussels and clams were also superb.  The lobster (stewed) and prawns (grilled), however, were a bit overcooked.  It's still one of the better bouillabaisse I've had though.

I have not had their idea of a bouillabaisse, and while some varieties of those ingredients can be found in the Mediterranean with some effort (spiny lobster instead of American lobster) and surely it tastes good, none of them are traditional/authentic staples of bouillabaisse and tossing in a heavy pinch of saffron & fennel to a mish-mash of steamed/boiled/grilled shellfish does not legitimize christening a dish to accommodate the Frenchified Mediterranean-ish greatest-hits-concept-narrative.  Rillettes, snails, quiche, duck confit and moules frites are not representative of genuine Club Med either, but Mediterranean sounds so damn familiar and comfy that no one cares.  Requin sounds like opportunists as well.

[Ericandblueboy]

I have not had their idea of a bouillabaisse, and while some varieties of those ingredients can be found in the Mediterranean with some effort (spiny lobster instead of American lobster) and surely it tastes good, none of them are traditional/authentic staples of bouillabaisse and tossing in a heavy pinch of saffron & fennel to a mish-mash of steamed/boiled/grilled shellfish does not legitimize christening a dish to accommodate the Frenchified Mediterranean-ish greatest-hits-concept-narrative.  Rillettes, snails, quiche, duck confit and moules frites are not representative of genuine Club Med either, but Mediterranean sounds so damn familiar and comfy that no one cares.  Requin sounds like opportunists as well.

I think you misunderstood my point of opportunist. I'm saying that Bruner-Yang is presenting authentic Chinese/Taiwanese food to a new audience and being able to charge more than his counterpart who still targets Chinese/Taiwanese audience. Chinese/Taiwanses food was damn tasty before Bruner-Yang was born. Somehow he was able to reach a hipster audience. Good for him, but that doesn't make him a better chef than Bob's chef.

[Simul Parikh]

Interesting use of hipster. We must have completely different definitions of that word. JoshNE and I are upper class professionals that live what seem to be quite boring lives in residential areas. My jeans are not skinny (nor am I, these days). I won't drink a PBR if you paid me. I watch mainstream television and don't stop listening to a band once they get big. I like them more, in fact. I travel "on the beaten path" and I don't mind seeing another American when I'm visiting a famous temple in Bali.

Hipsters I know would not be caught dead in an Asian restaurant that had - gasp - white people eating there. And even worse, someone they know. Hipsters go to the place where there isn't an English menu and hold it over others.

If by hipster, you mean monied, mid 30-40s people that lead pretty conventional lives and get excited unironically by things that delight them, I guess I fit that bill. Probably most people that eat at Maketto. But a real hipster would probably make fun of me (and I wouldn't even realize they were teasing)

I wonder if you mean yuppie? Douche? Foodie? I've been accused of being all of those perjoratives, to my chagrin.

I live in Del Ray. I drive a 2011 Lexus. I don't shop vintage. And I am not ashamed

[Poivrot Farci]

On 4/14/2016 at 11:11 PM, Ericandblueboy said:

I'm saying that Bruner-Yang is presenting authentic Chinese/Taiwanese food to a new audience and being able to charge more than his counterpart who still targets Chinese/Taiwanese audience.

What makes it authentic other than the words or ingredients on the menu?

I suppose calling an item Taiwanese, Thai, Lao, Cambodian or even French is enough to convince some people.  Just like slapping a bouillabaisse sign on a shellfish hodge-podge. Of course both are careful not to make any pledges of allegiance of representing the real McCoy.

"Carroll's menu is informed by the Mediterranean coast", whatever that means, and Maketto's "60 seat restaurant is our interpretation of Cambodian and Taiwanese cooking."

Why hunting down authentic ethnic food is a loaded proposition (NPR)

[lion]

Interesting and timely article Poivrot Farci, thanks for the link. I can see some of the concern voiced by others such as Simul Parikh and JoshNE in the article's main points which leads me to believe we are talking about different things. 

Can ethnic restaurants be authentic if they don't charge a lot of money? Can they be considered in the same light as 4 or 5 stars restaurants? Frankly, these kind of questions are not interesting to me. 

When I think of authentic in terms of food, foremost I think of taste. For example, I was trying to reach a Japanese friend yesterday who studying the tea ceremony at a temple. Twelve years ago, I attended a full day of tea ceremonies at that temple, six times if I recall correctly. It wasn't the atmosphere of the different settings that made it authentic, it was the decades of experience in preparation preparing the macha and the quality of the tea itself which made the taste, authentic. 

When restaurants here use only 5-10 ingredients versus others which use 15-20, there is a difference in taste. I assume the chef makes these decisions based on time constraints or that people will not notice the lack of complexity. Unfortunately the complexity is lost and that is fairly significant to the taste.

[Waitman]

1 hour ago, Waitman said:

What's the differential?

1 hour ago, DonRocks said:

It's a device that splits engine torque two ways, in order to compensate for the distance between the inner and outer wheels of a car when it goes around a turn.

This is probably a discussion best had in this thread.

MarkS likes this  Like this

• OK.  We're in this thread.  What are separating the risotto from the stirred rice that makes "vegetarian risottoe" such a rare commodity?

[sandynva]

i didn't understand the comment--is it that most things served as vegetable risottos aren't properly cooked risottos, or are you saying that risotto, by definition, can't be vegetarian? 

 

[lion]

Netflix's season two episode focuses on Gaggan Anand and his restaurant, Gaggan. Really good episode focusing on challenges of modernizing Indian cuisine. 

[Poivrot Farci]

Quote

La Vie, their largest venture to-date, will feature French-Mediterranean cuisine that includes an extensive moules-frites menu, a wide selection of sweet and savory tartines and a variety of coastal-inspired beverages.

I'm pretty sure that "moules-frites" is a northern thing more closely associated with Belgium and to a lesser extent the region of northern France along the Atlantic ocean/North Sea.  In fact, I am certain, but it would seem that neither the management nor focus groups are, or care and that's a shame.

[Eric Ziebold]

your next trip to France you need to head to Chez Hortense in Cap Ferret for their moules frites(southwest France).  Absolutely to die for albeit a little different than the northern version.  No broth, instead it would seem they're oven roasted as opposed to steamed.  Garlicky, bacony bread crumbs, very respectable french fries and some inexpensive white bordeaux (specifically we had the graville lacoste for about 20 euro).  Absolutely delightful dish regardless of origin.  These are small bouchot mussels so if you prefer the giant PEI type skip it and save the table for us.  :-)

[Bart]

This thread is beyond  ridiculous.  Package it up and send it to the Smithsonian right now!

I don't know how I missed it before, but I just "liked" a post from over 2 years ago and another one from over a year ago.  I'll have to read the entire thing a few more times before I fully understand it, but damn!, the amount of knowledge being dispensed here is truly amazing.

Thanks to all!

[Josh]

From a review (written by a friend) of Foreign National, a new Vietnamese place in Seattle:

"Of course, a restaurant is not just about the cuisine but also about the experience and how much you're willing to pay for it—from the decor, to the prime location, to costs we don't always consider, like the PR efforts that informed the press that brought us there. That said, restaurants aren't created in a vacuum where colonial history and race and well-entrenched bias don't play a part; they are reflections of our culture and a response to what people have come to expect—from both a Boulud-trained chef and an immigrant restaurateur in Little Saigon. It's worth keeping in mind, whether you're eating $6 pho in the ID or sipping $15 craft cocktails at a hole-in-the-wall-inspired bar."

[sandynva]

I thought this article, and the mention of the iggy azaleas of cooking, was interesting:

"Cooking Other People's Food: How Chefs Appropriate Bay Area 'Ethnic' Cuisine" by Luke Tsai on eastbayexpress.com

[Simul Parikh]

Great article!!

On 8/30/2016 at 3:11 PM, sandynva said:

I thought this article, and the mention of the iggy azaleas of cooking, was interesting:

"Cooking Other People's Food: How Chefs Appropriate Bay Area 'Ethnic' Cuisine" by Luke Tsai on eastbayexpress.com

It's so true that if a white person opens up an ethnic restaurant they get so much more press (regardless of if it is good - Little Serow, or bad). Even as a small example, that Ramen place is Arlington got a fair bit of press, I think Gaijin? It was good, but it just seemed odd. Iggy Azalea is a perfect analogy. 

[DonRocks]

22 hours ago, Simul Parikh said:

Great article!!

It's so true that if a white person opens up an ethnic restaurant they get so much more press (regardless of if it is good - Little Serow, or bad). Even as a small example, that Ramen place is Arlington got a fair bit of press, I think Gaijin? It was good, but it just seemed odd. Iggy Azalea is a perfect analogy. 

Pok Pok!

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Ima.

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