130 replies to this topic

[Heather]

Why on earth would anyone drink a Martini instead of a Gimlet?

I think the universe is vast enough to encompass both drinks.

(Gimlets taste like limeade to me.)

[Xochitl10]

I think the universe is vast enough to encompass both drinks.

Indeed. They are different drinks for different occasions. I will gladly drink Martinis all year 'round, but no Gimlets after, say, September, and certainly not at the end of a long, dispiriting workday. For me, Gimlets are celebratory, uplifting, summer drinks. I consider Martinis celebratory as well as restorative.

[Waitman]

Why on earth would anyone drink a Martini instead of a Gimlet?

I have a mixed marriage. I drink the martinis, Stephanie drinks gimlets. Somehow, we've worked through it.

Amen. As long as the gimlet is made with real lime juice, and not Rose's...

Real Gimlets aremad with Roses. Gimlets made with lime juice taste like health drinks. Plus the color is never right.

I think the universe is vast enough to encompass both drinks.
(Gimlets taste like limeade to me.)

But is the cafe table?

[Capital Icebox]

Try one at Eve made by Tammy no matter what your brand or taste. I have just begun drinking martini's again after a long ago bad experience so my experience is limited but in addition to loving Tammy's martini's I hear a lot of Eve customers rave about the martini's at Eve and, in particular, Tammy's. .

It's a shame they won't let her make them at PX.

[Heather]

I have a mixed marriage. I drink the martinis, Stephanie drinks gimlets. Somehow, we've worked through it.

Scott doesn't even drink gin. I married him anyway.

But is the cafe table?

Sure. Gin and Rose's is better than no gin at all.

[Jacques Gastreaux]

What is the difference in flavor between gin and "bruised" gin? And why does shaking the gin bruise it and stirring does not?

[porcupine]

There's a fairly long aside in one of the early books (prob. Casino Royale, but I can't swear to it) about how Bond prefers shaking specifically because of the bruising effect.

Okay, ya trumped me. I seem to recall gaining that tidbet from a bio of Ian Fleming I read long, long ago, but I could be wrong. I think Casino Royale is one of the few I didn't read. oh well.

[Sthitch]

What is the difference in flavor between gin and "bruised" gin? And why does shaking the gin bruise it and stirring does not?

The term bruising is just a fancy way of saying you are watering down the spirit. Any drink that is pure spirits should be stirred to minimize the amount of dilution caused by the melting ice, while any drink that has a non-spirit mixer is fine better to shake to help incorporate the flavors, as the water will not be "bruise" the flavor of the drink. Dean is correct in saying that you need to have a little bit of water in a martini, but the amount should be kept to a minimum.

[deangold]

Why on earth would anyone drink a Martini instead of a Gimlet?

Because they want to taste the gin? <ducks and hides under the table...>

[The Hersch]

Raj can be found at Macarthur/Bassin's. It is quite expensive as far a gin goes, usually $55-60 a bottle. I am guessing it is the saffron infusion that drives the price up.

Bassin's is way out of my rather limited orbit, but I popped in to Pearson's a little while ago, and what do you know, they carry Old Raj. I'm afraid that at this point in my life, though, it is simply not possible that a fifth of gin could be worth $70 to me. If I could really acquire it for $55 I might think about it. Calvert Woodley generally has the best price on spirits in town (in my experience), but they don't carry Old Raj, and even seem to have stopped carrying Junipero. Interestingly, as of a year or so ago, the best price I have ever seen for Hendricks was at .... wait for it .... Virginia ABC stores! I think it was a promotion that's probably no longer in effect, but it was under $30 a fifth; I forget the exact price, but I think it was maybe as little as $28.

[Capital Icebox]

Interestingly, as of a year or so ago, the best price I have ever seen for Hendricks was at .... wait for it .... Virginia ABC stores! I think it was a promotion that's probably no longer in effect, but it was under $30 a fifth; I forget the exact price, but I think it was maybe as little as $28.

It is on sale for $29 today.

[ol_ironstomach]

It is on sale for $29 today.

Maybe this wouldn't be a good time to mention that Montgomery "we're a damn government monopoly but we're cheap" County Liquor Control's regular price is about that, and on sale it drops to something like $22 per 750ml. 'cause that might sound a bit like gloating

[purplesachi]

where can i find orange bitters? all this talk led me to pick up hendricks ($30) and tanqueray($28-$30) yesterday at the va abc . i want to try making martinis with and without bitters. but at the store i only saw angostura bitters, and no orange. can i use the angostura or should i keep searching for the orange?

oh. and now that i have these two bottles of gin, what other drinks can i make with them? i'm ready to get my gin on.

[Chris Cunningham]

Personally, I would forget the Angustora bitters, and instead use Peychaud or Regan's Orange bitters. Both add a unique element and color tinge to your martini.. I'm not sure where you live, but Cleveland Park liquor carries both brands. As for a few different kinds of drink's that are not classic martini's try these.

Fizz- gin, grapefruit juice,soda water- serve in tall glass with ice

The Nooner- 1 1/2 gin, 3/4 dry vermouth, 3/4 sweet vermouth, 3/4 fresh OJ, 3 dashes Peychuad bitters, 1/2 fresh egg white- combine in mixing glass with ice and shake like hell 25 times-then strain into martini glass and revel in your new found nirvana.

North Pole Martini- 2 shots gin, 1 shot Luxardo Maraschino liqueur, 1/2 shot lemon juice, 1/2 egg white. Shake and strain into a martini glass, then float a dash of heavy cream on top.

Dino's Revenge- 2 shot's gin, 1 shot lemoncello, 1 shot fresh pink grapefruit juice. Shake and strain into martini glass. This conncoction is both bitter and sour but quite nice

I can give you some more, should these not be to your liking

[The Hersch]

where can i find orange bitters? all this talk led me to pick up hendricks ($30) and tanqueray($28-$30) yesterday at the va abc . i want to try making martinis with and without bitters. but at the store i only saw angostura bitters, and no orange. can i use the angostura or should i keep searching for the orange?

You can buy Regan's orange bitters, which are the best available, at Calvert Woodley, near the Van Ness Metro station. You can also buy them online HERE. Angostura bitters are wonderful, but not in a martini. I would say the same about Peychaud's. You can buy Fee Brothers orange bitters, which are pretty good, at Pearson's in Glover Park.

So, the va ABC has Hendricks for $30 a fifth...that's a pretty good price. But the $28-$30 Tanqueray is for a fifth also?? Calvert Woodley sells a 1.75 liter bottle for $26.99.

[deangold]

In the interest of science, purely as a public service to all here on the board, I had Chris add some orange bitters to my 209 Martini last night. The result (with 3 dashes of bitters, not enough to change the color of the martini to the naked eye) was that the flavors were deepened without particularly being altered. The botters were like a dash of salt or a drop of lemon juice to balance a dish. You don't taste the addition itself, it just brings clarity to the final flavors. Although the way Chris makes martinis and the word clarity usually doesn't follow.

[DameEdna]

Interestingly, as of a year or so ago, the best price I have ever seen for Hendricks was at .... wait for it .... Virginia ABC stores! I think it was a promotion that's probably no longer in effect, but it was under $30 a fifth; I forget the exact price, but I think it was maybe as little as $28.

Real liquor store geeks (is there such a thing?) might want to check out the Virginia ABC Stores web site. I believe
Hendricks is listed in the sale items, with the price in the second column from the right.
click
The answer to the question "If a government agency had a liquor store, what would the pricelist look like?" is here.

[The Hersch]

In the interest of science, purely as a public service to all here on the board, I had Chris add some orange bitters to my 209 Martini last night. The result (with 3 dashes of bitters, not enough to change the color of the martini to the naked eye) was that the flavors were deepened without particularly being altered.

Were these Regan's bitters? While Regan's organge bitters are a wonderful, superb product, one judgment I question is the inclusion of caramel coloring in the formula. I don't think there's any particular reason why orange bitters shouldn't be basically colorless. All that aside, thanks for your selfless sacrifice in this research.

[purplesachi]

So, the va ABC has Hendricks for $30 a fifth...that's a pretty good price. But the $28-$30 Tanqueray is for a fifth also?? Calvert Woodley sells a 1.75 liter bottle for $26.99.

ouch (yes, $27.90 for a liter tanqueray)! i guess i'm going to calvert woodley next time i'm out of tanqueray!

[Barbara]

Heck, I just want to know how many of us made some Martinis since this subject came up. I'm not fond of them myself, being a G&T person, but I was rather ENTHRALLED with Dame Edna's Martini at RTC a few months ago. I was a weenie and got the Peach Bellini for myself. Thanks to my parents' estate, we now own a silver cocktail shaker. Must put it to use.

[ol_ironstomach]

You can buy Regan's orange bitters, which are the best available...

Among the best not available are the Hermes Orange Bitters, made in Japan by Suntory. If you find them on your travels, bring them back. More info on orange bitters in Ted Haigh's article here:
http://www.martinire...’m-very-bitter/
(despite the link, you'll have to cut-and-paste manually because Martini Republic's publishing software permits the creation of noncompliant URLs but is then too stupid to recognize the necessary standards-compliant encoded version )

Real liquor store geeks (is there such a thing?) might want to check out the Virginia ABC Stores web site. ...

No, they don't exist.
MoCo doesn't offer a full product listing, but here's the link to Montgomery County's periodically-updated on-sale liquors webpage. Store locator here.

[deangold]

Were these Regan's bitters? While Regan's organge bitters are a wonderful, superb product, one judgment I question is the inclusion of caramel coloring in the formula. I don't think there's any particular reason why orange bitters shouldn't be basically colorless. All that aside, thanks for your selfless sacrifice in this research.

They were indeed Regan's. WHat is interesting is that they basically did not color the 209 martini but they did add an interesting orange glow to the Brokers martini I had tonight. There is no end tot he personal and professional sacrafices I will make on the behalf of the board in the interest of schiece ... damn ... shienze ... syance ... allright drunkeness!

PS Steve... you're so wrong on the Pierre Peters but I will defend to the death your right to say so.... wrong as you may be!

[Jacques Gastreaux]

The term bruising is just a fancy way of saying you are watering down the spirit.

But isn't the alcohol content contolled by the distiller by adding water to the distilled spirit? There was some discussion up-thread about the difference between gin sold in the UK (80 proof) and that sold in the US (higher and by how much depending on the brand). So, wouldn't the higher proof gins "bruise" more easily then their lower proof brethern due to the higher alcohol content?

[jparrott]

ouch (yes, $27.90 for a liter tanqueray)! i guess i'm going to calvert woodley next time i'm out of tanqueray!

Everyone, repeat after me (and ol_s). If MoCo stocks it, it's almost always cheaper there. If MoCo puts it on sale, it's always cheaper. And they put a LOT of stuff on sale each month.

[deangold]

But isn't the alcohol content controlled by the distiller by adding water to the distilled spirit? There was some discussion up-thread about the difference between gin sold in the UK (80 proof) and that sold in the US (higher and by how much depending on the brand). So, wouldn't the higher proof gins "bruise" more easily then their lower proof brethren due to the higher alcohol content?

When you ice a drink, the resultant mixture will be a blend of water and the alcohol in the original spirits. If you ice it gently till it reaches temperature equilibrium, the mixture will have less proof than when it started and will be below 32 degrees as the alcohol acts as an antifreeze. So if you have more alcohol to begin with, there is more alcohol in the resulting blend, more melt and a lower temperature. At least theoretically. If the difference in proof is small, the order of magnitude of this effect is very small. And since the vermouth is about 32 proof and, in my martinis, amounts to 1/4 the spirits mixture, the efffect is reduced by 33% right off the top.

In terms of what I referred to as bruising, the chipping of ice and its melt, I am not sure of how the alcohol effect would play out as the amount of ice chipped into the drink (which is proportional to the vigor of the shaking) is probably not very dependent on final temperature or alcohol as antifreeze considerations. And the aeration would be not a function of alcohol levels at all.

Clearly we should get a government grant to study this important area of human knowlege.

[Jacques Gastreaux]

If you ice it gently till it reaches temperature equilibrium, the mixture will have less proof than when it started and will be below 32 degrees as the alcohol acts as an antifreeze.

But wouldn't the ice stop melting once you got the liquid portion below 32F? Wouldn't you get the liquid below 32F more quickly (and hence halt the dilution more quickly) by shaking rather than stiring?

And Jake, does Monkey County put their sales on their website (if they have one)?

[DanielK]

And Jake, does Monkey County put their sales on their website (if they have one)?

Links to wine and spirit sales on the right side of this page.

[The Hersch]

Everyone, repeat after me (and ol_s). If MoCo stocks it, it's almost always cheaper there. If MoCo puts it on sale, it's always cheaper. And they put a LOT of stuff on sale each month.

While the MoCo sale prices are pretty good, they're not necessarily better than CW's sale prices. Currently, for example, MoCo has 1.75L Cutty Sark for $26.99, while CW has it for $21.99. Beefeater, $23.99 versus $22.77 (that might be within the margin of sales tax rates; what is the sales tax in MoCo? I think it's 8% on liquor in DC). Gordon's 1.75L is $12.99 in MoCo; $9.79 at Calvert Woodley. In fact, in comparing the on-sale prices between the two, I can't find a single item that's cheaper at MoCo, although I haven't tried very hard.

[deangold]

But wouldn't the ice stop melting once you got the liquid portion below 32F? Wouldn't you get the liquid below 32F more quickly (and hence halt the dilution more quickly) by shaking rather than stiring?

And Jake, does Monkey County put their sales on their website (if they have one)?

Recalling that I got a c in chemistry... the alcohol in the lisquid would have a lower than 32 degree melting point. There would be some absorbtion of alcohol into the ice I do believe and that would allow for it to continue melting below 32 degrees.

As the shaking part, I don't believe so. There are two effects: the heat transfer effect and the mechanical effect. With stiring the drink is always in contact with the ice and the heat transfer is occuring at the flow rate of cold into a liquid. With shaking sometimes the ice is in the liquid and sometimes in contact with the air, hence the heat flow is taking place at a combined rate of the coefficient of air and liquid, which is slower. THen there is the mechanical effect of the slivers of ice left in the drink. Now the drink is in the glass and surrounded by room temperature air and the ice slivers melt, giving more dilution.

[Jacques Gastreaux]

THen there is the mechanical effect of the slivers of ice left in the drink. Now the drink is in the glass and surrounded by room temperature air and the ice slivers melt, giving more dilution.

I agree that melting slivers of ice would add to the bruising effect. But could that be reduced or eliminated by using ice cubes instead of crushed ice?

[Banco]

I agree that melting slivers of ice would add to the bruising effect. But could that be reduced or eliminated by using ice cubes instead of crushed ice?

Yes. Works for me. I use whole cubes and do kind of a swirl/shake. (The advantage of this technique is also that it does not make the drink foamy, which really looks bad in a martini.)

[Sthitch]

I agree that melting slivers of ice would add to the bruising effect. But could that be reduced or eliminated by using ice cubes instead of crushed ice?

If you shake, the slivers will occur no matter what type of ice you use, as the cubes smash into one another they will chip and sliver.

[Gary Tanigawa]

While the MoCo sale prices are pretty good, they're not necessarily better than CW's sale prices.

I agree that Calvert Woodley's pricing can be very competitive for the area. For example, I haven't seen 12 y/o Highland Park for $28 for years.

[DanCole42]

But wouldn't the ice stop melting once you got the liquid portion below 32F? Wouldn't you get the liquid below 32F more quickly (and hence halt the dilution more quickly) by shaking rather than stiring?

And Jake, does Monkey County put their sales on their website (if they have one)?

I store my jigger, shaker, vodka and martini glass in the freezer, which I keep at the coldest setting. While the ice can chill the liquid to <32F, the entire system is still exposed to room temperature air AND the warmth of your hands, so negligible melting is inevitable. You could, in theory, produce a completely undiluted martini by storing all the ingredients and an oven mitt in the freezer and using that to make the martini while physically inside the freezer, but then you'd be an idiot.

[shogun]

A little dilution is important, though.

[jparrott]

A little dilution is important, though.

That's what the vermouth is for .

[DanCole42]

And let's not forget dear old Winston Churchill, who preferred dry martinis: simply pouring the gin while glancing at a bottle of vermouth across the room.

I like my martinis extra, extra cold with vodka, not gin, light vermouth, a single olive (with maybe a blue cheese stuffing), and shaken. Talk of bruising and aligned molecules aside, I find they get colder this way.

While I DO prefer them cold, I shudder (with disgust, not chill) when I'm asked if I want it on the rocks.

[The Hersch]

And let's not forget dear old Winston Churchill, who preferred dry martinis: simply pouring the gin while glancing at a bottle of vermouth across the room.

The way I heard it is he would bow in the direction of France, but I was under the impression this was during the war, when French products were not being imported into the UK, and he was marking the lack of something that should have been in his glass. However, the story is probably wholly apocryphal. For one thing, he wasn't really known as a martini drinker in the first place. He drank whisky mostly. Lots of it. All day long. I think gin would still have been infra dig to a man of his class and age.

vodka

You said a bad word.

[Sthitch]

And let's not forget dear old Winston Churchill, who preferred dry martinis: simply pouring the gin while glancing at a bottle of vermouth across the room.

I like my martinis extra, extra cold with vodka, not gin, light vermouth, a single olive (with maybe a blue cheese stuffing), and shaken. Talk of bruising and aligned molecules aside, I find they get colder this way.

While I DO prefer them cold, I shudder (with disgust, not chill) when I'm asked if I want it on the rocks.

There is no need to worry about bruising the flavor of Vodka, since in its unadulterated form it has no flavor, so shake away.

[Sthitch]

For one thing, he wasn't really known as a martini drinker in the first place. He drank whisky mostly. Lots of it. All day long.

He also drank quite a bit of Pol Roger Champagne, so much so, that they re-named their Prestige Cuvee after him.

[yeuxblu]

Unlike Bond, I was raised in the Auntie Mame version of how to serve a martini, always stirred to avoid bruising the liquor. My grandmother skipped the shaker all together and taught me to swirl the vermouth enough to wet the glass then dispose of the remnants (either in ones mouth or in the sink, depending on the company present). Her version of stirring was usually with a cocktail pin & olive before discarding it or her finger which was generally done unconsciously.

For the gin and vermouth martini drinkers/makers, I've never bothered to read a martini recipe so what does the rest of the world do?

[BlakeG]

I wasn't really sure were to put this link but the way this discussion has gone, I just felt the need to put it here...
http://www.theonion....oisseur_detects

[dirtymartini]

No one mentioned Miller's Westbourne strength gin. That is some fine gin for a martini. If you do add bitters (as every educated drinker should) the recipe is measured in DROPS not DASHES. Like salt excites the palate, so does bitters and it should be used accordingly. A DRY martini describes a drink made with DRY vermouth not, a shot of gin chilled. Try the martini recipe with sweet vermouth, it is an interesting contrast and, the perfect martini ( equal parts dry and sweet vermouth) is sublime. Garnish these latter with a twist and, do twist, it releases the oils from the skin.

[Waitman]

Unlike Bond, I was raised in the Auntie Mame version of how to serve a martini,

"Do you want an olive? Auntie Mame says they take up too much room in a small glass."

[Sthitch]

No one mentioned Miller's Westbourne strength gin. That is some fine gin for a martini.

Actually, someone did.

[starfish]

I like my martinis extra, extra cold with vodka, not gin, light vermouth, a single olive (with maybe a blue cheese stuffing), and shaken.

frank sinatra was once asked the perfect number of olives for his martini. he replied "easy - three. two to eat and one to share with the dame sitting next to you"

i wish i could attribute my other favorite martini quote to the author but i have no idea who said it...i am going to go with dame judy dench - it could be right.
"the grace of a man can be measured by his ability to lift a full martini to his lips without spilling"

[deangold]

frank sinatra was once asked the perfect number of olives for his martini. he replied "easy - three. two to eat and one to share with the dame sitting next to you"

i wish i could attribute my other favorite martini quote to the author but i have no idea who said it...i am going to go with dame judy dench - it could be right.
"the grace of a man can be measured by his ability to lift a full martini to his lips without spilling"

Words of wisdom to live by.... except my dame don't like martini's... perhaps the reason I drink them. As opposed to Alsatian Gewurztraminer... which I usually end up watching her drink most of!

[brettashley01]

I like my martinis extra, extra cold with vodka, not gin, light vermouth, a single olive (with maybe a blue cheese stuffing), and shaken. Talk of bruising and aligned molecules aside, I find they get colder this way.

Funny I thought I said I liked vodka martinis a few posts ago, and got railed on for daring to mention a vodka "martini"....

[jasonc]

Funny I thought I said I liked vodka martinis a few posts ago, and got railed on for daring to mention a vodka "martini"....

Fine, I'll handle that.

I like my martinis extra, extra cold with vodka, not gin, light vermouth, a single olive (with maybe a blue cheese stuffing), and shaken. Talk of bruising and aligned molecules aside, I find they get colder this way.

In other words, you don't like martinis.

[alan7147]

Fine, I'll handle that.

In other words, you don't like martinis.

OK big guy, what is your ideal martini?