152 replies to this topic

[starfish]

specifically regarding tipping the sommelier...
a friend of mine asked for my advice on this subject recently. he had dinner for four at a high end restaurant in the district. the manager/wine director paired bottles for each of the four savory courses, and generally spent a significant amount of time at the table. my friend, who normally tips extremely well, forgot to take care of this manager on his way out of the door, and wanted my opinion on the best way to rectify his lapse in judgment [his words not mine].

my friend asked if the manager would get a cut of the tip that he left on the check, and i indicated that he most likely would not. thinking that belated cash might be a bit crass, we concluded that a thank you card and a bottle from his personal cellar would be a very nice thank you.

for me personally, and for many of my friends in the business, a thoughtful gift is valued far higher than the money.

[ulysses]

Except in very unusual circumstances, I tip 20% on the whole bill, regardless of what I spend on wine.  Yes, it's more than generous if I order an expensive bottle (which for me is well below DRC at a couple of thousand but three figures is not unusual), but I factor it into the cost of the experience.  I can afford it, and I just hope the staff appreciates it (and remembers me).

As for the argument that it takes no more effort to serve a $500 bottle than a $50 bottle, it also generally takes no more effort to serve a $30 dollar entree than a $15 dollar entree.  It's all just a cost of dining out to me.

Im sure JP is a fawned over regular at more than one establishment.

Tipping is a cost of dining out. Its all an equation: better food=(usually)better wine selection=higher check average=knowlegeable capable staff=good experience. So when everyone starts NOT tipping 15-20% on 40% of a servers sales, he/she is going to decide to move on somewhere else where people do. Now the quality of food might not decrease but do you really want some kid pushing lahtoshah on you while he's forgetting to clear your oysters and pearls?

Besides the government is gonna take their chunk from the server whether you gave it or not.

[B.A.R.]

Besides the government is gonna take their chunk from the server whether you gave it or not.

In some restraunts this may be true, but not in most.

Servers are going to want as much money as they can possibly get. Their "commission" is based on gross sales. But not once did I ever think when I was openening a bottle that costs $1,000 did I think in the entire 10 minute excercise (glasses, decanter, song & dance, etc. etc.) was worth $200.

In my opinion, as the cost of a bottle of wine goes up, the relative tip percentage on that bottle goes down. My sliding scale starts at about $150, unless I have had several martinis, in which case I tip like a Rockefeller.

I tip sommeliers 20% on what they assisted me with and generally give this to them directly if there is no such line on the credit card receipt.

[ulysses]

In some restraunts this may be true, but not in most.

Servers are going to want as much money as they can possibly get. Their "commission" is based on gross sales. But not once did I ever think when I was openening a bottle that costs $1,000 did I think in the entire 10 minute excercise (glasses, decanter, song & dance, etc. etc.) was worth $200.

The fact is that when I.R.Smith comesa knockin', he doesn't look at gross tips, he looks at gross sales. Lately theres been a movement to have servers surrender tips to the restaurant so that they can be reported. But this movement is still in its infancy. The goverment just assumes that you made at least 11% of your sales, then they start taxing on that. Now what happens when you tip 5% on a thousand dollar bottle of wine. (just for arguments sake, lets leave out the food and tip on food)
tip-$50
tip10% to bus-$5
tip10% to runners$5
tip5% to bar-$2.50
tip5% to maitred/sommelier-$2.50
GIVE OVER 20% of 11% of sales of a $1K bottle of wine to gvt-$22
Remainder=$13 big ones
This should keep your glasses an eighth full or an eighth empty on your next visit. The math is the same across the board, except it gets much worse as the wine gets less expensive. This doesnt even account for restaurants that tip their back staff on percentages of sales. I mean in theory this could double if a server has to tip 2% to a busser and 2% to runner. In fact a server could actually lose money by taking care of you.

Money.......pshaaaaaa. Ive heard that most servers are lottery winners and they just do it because they like the people.

The fact of the matter is that if you have enough money to spend on a $150 bottle of wine you have enough to give the waiter a $22.50-$30 tip(that is assuming service was up to snuff). If not then learn to cook and start shopping at calvert woodley.

[B.A.R.]

Wow. Didn't mean to get your dander up there Ulysses. Welcome to the board.

I would venture a guess that the number of servers getting flagged by the IRS for underreportage of tips caused by low gratuities on thousand dollar bottles of wine hovers around zero. And you could easily survive the audit because you or the restaurant, could show the recipts each night you got hosed on that bottle of Margaux.

We can agree to disagree on that one.

The essential mechanics of opening a bottle of wine do not change with the price of the wine, save for better stemware, decanting, etc. Most of the time it takes no more than ten minutes. And generally speaking, the server is well compensated for that 10 minutes. My premise was that I don't believe it is necessary to tip 20% on very expensive bottles of wine.

And for what it's worth, I have formulated my opinion by serving expensive bottles of wine for 10 plus years, and only now can I rarely splurge on a nice bottle out. Thanks for the cooking and shopping advice.

[ulysses]

B.A.R. didnt mean to go on the offense so quickly.

I realize that we're talking about a rather infrequent occurence when we talk about thousand dollar bottles. And as far as being audited, well thats not a clear and present danger for most restaurants.

I guess I was speaking in broader strokes. Sometimes my perception of tipping standards, particualarly in DC and LA seemed to be a little jaded.

[Barbara]

I guess I was speaking in broader strokes. Sometimes my perception of tipping standards, particualarly in DC and LA seemed to be a little jaded.

As opposed to where?

[Jacques Gastreaux]

The fact is that when I.R.Smith comesa knockin', he doesn't look at gross tips, he looks at gross sales. Lately theres been a movement to have servers surrender tips to the restaurant so that they can be reported. But this movement is still in its infancy. The goverment just assumes that you made at least 11% of your sales, then they start taxing on that. Now what happens when you tip 5% on a thousand dollar bottle of wine. (just for arguments sake, lets leave out the food and tip on food)
tip-$50
tip10% to bus-$5
tip10% to runners$5
tip5% to bar-$2.50
tip5% to maitred/sommelier-$2.50
GIVE OVER 20% of 11% of sales of a $1K bottle of wine to gvt-$22
Remainder=$13 big ones
This should keep your glasses an eighth full or an eighth empty on your next visit. The math is the same across the board, except it gets much worse as the wine gets less expensive. This doesnt even account for restaurants that tip their back staff on percentages of sales. I mean in theory this could double if a server has to tip 2% to a busser and 2% to runner. In fact a server could actually lose money by taking care of you.

Money.......pshaaaaaa. Ive heard that most servers are lottery winners and they just do it because they like the people.

The fact of the matter is that if you have enough money to spend on a $150 bottle of wine you have enough to give the waiter a $22.50-$30 tip(that is assuming service was up to snuff). If not then learn to cook and start shopping at calvert woodley.

A 5% tip on a $1000 bottle of wine is the same as a 20% tip on a $250 bottle of wine. Is it your point that a 5% tip on a $1k bottle of wine is stingey?

[Principia]

A 5% tip on a $1000 bottle of wine is the same as a 20% tip on a $250 bottle of wine.  Is it your point that a 5% tip on a $1k bottle of wine is stingey?

I think the point is that if you ask anyone in the business how much they'd like to get tipped on anything they sell, they're going to give you an inflated answer because they want as much money as possible. A perfectly understandable desire, but c'mon - 20% of a bottle that's already had its cost punched up several times over? I think not.

There's an interesting query for the wine drinkers out there in DR land: are you likely to give a better tip percentage-wise if you know you're not being raked over the coals on the price of the wine itself?

[jcc]

In a dinner for two - my rule of thumb is that the tip for wine should never exceed the cost of the meal it was enjoyed with.
$100 in food = tipping 20% on any wine up to $500
$50 in food = tipping 20% on any wine up to $250
It might seem generous to some - but it's always seems to feel proper at the time.

[RaisaB]

We usually tip about 20%. If the bottle is under $100 we include that in the %. When it starts creeping up, we look at the service. If the service was outstanding we keep the same percentage, otherwise we just tip more or less as if it had been a $100 bottle.(we rarely buy anything over $100, tops $300).
At a place like Corduroy I think we tip a higher percentage and certainly always include the bottle in the price. (gosh I hope he has been tipping higher). Tom marks up his bottles next to nothing!

[ulysses]

As opposed to where?

As opposed to other cities I or other people I know in the business work or have worked in.

Im not trying to ruffle any feathers here or for that matter have my own ruffled.

Theres kind of a lore in the industry that LA is known for its dining establishment not tipping 15-20 on its screaming eagles and it harlan estates. I think its clear that there is some disagreement on tipping standards in DC.

Discussion of tipping practices is a very slippery slope.

[ulysses]

A 5% tip on a $1000 bottle of wine is the same as a 20% tip on a $250 bottle of wine.  Is it your point that a 5% tip on a $1k bottle of wine is stingey?

{rocks not sure how to quote multiple post into one response yet...sorry}

No, stingey wasnt the point I was trying to illustrate. The math I presented you with shows that a server is not going to get very much of that money, epecially if a restaurant makes the server tip on a sales percentage. If X restaurant makes the server tip 5% of sales to his/her help, then poof that money is gone. I mean if thats the case then why shouldnt the server just give you a map of the wine cellar and tell you that theyll bring your food out when its ready.

I would like say it again, Im not attacking only defending. Ive met most of you on several different occasions. You are all very pleasant people and as far as I can tell you do a very good job taking care of the people that take care of you. I am just trying to present a side of an debate/arguement.

Edited by ulysses, 14 March 2006 - 05:15 PM.

[Jacques Gastreaux]

{rocks not sure how to quote multiple post into one response yet...sorry}

No, stingey wasnt the point I was trying to illustrate. If you did tip 5% on a 1K bottle of wine, I hope that you would not expect world class service. The math I presented you with shows that a server is not going to get very much of that money, epecially if a restaurant makes the server tip on a sales percentage. If X restaurant makes the server tip 5% of sales to his/her help, then poof that money is gone. I mean if thats the case then why shouldnt the server just give you a map of the wine cellar and tell you that theyll bring your food out when its ready. 

I would like say it again, Im not attacking only defending. Ive met most of you on several different occasions. You are all very pleasant people and as far as I can tell you do a very good job taking care of the people that take care of you. I am just trying to present a side of an debate/arguement.

But the net to the server is the same with the 20% on the $250 wine and 5% on the $1K wine. Should I expect world class service on the $250 wine? And how would the server know in advance how much the tip would be so that he could model his/her behaviour accordingly?

[ulysses]

But the net to the server is the same with the 20% on the $250 wine and 5% on the $1K wine.  Should I expect world class service on the $250 wine?  And how would the server know in advance how much the tip would be so that he could model his/her behaviour accordingly?

The net is not the same when a server has to tip his bussers, runners and bar staff on his/her sales.

Heres how the math breaks down on these two examples:

Gross Sales: 1000.00 / 250.00
Gross Tips: 50.00 / 50.00
Tip out 5%: 50.00 / 12.50
(based on sales)
Net Tips: 00.00 / 27.50

Tip out is the industry term for the money that servers give to the runners, bussers and 'tenders.

[qwertyy]

The net is not the same when a server has to tip his bussers, runners and bar staff on his/her sales.

Heres how the math breaks down on these two examples:

Gross Sales:  1000.00                /            250.00
Gross Tips:        50.00                /              50.00
Tip out 5%:        50.00                /              12.50   
(based on sales)
Net Tips:            00.00                /              27.50

Tip out is the industry term for the money that servers give to the runners, bussers and 'tenders.

But I've never tipped out based on sales. I tip out based on tips. Where does that happen?

If I was the owner of a restaurant, and someone bought a $1,000 bottle of wine, I would pretty much see to it that the person got world-class service - especially considering that person just bought me a round-trip ticket to Europe with the $500-700 profit I made on that one sale.

Thank you, Don. Exactly.

[hillvalley]

{rocks not sure how to quote multiple post into one response yet...sorry}

Click on the quote button at the bottom of each post you want to quote. Then click on Add Reply at the bottom of the page.

[Jacques Gastreaux]

The net is not the same when a server has to tip his bussers, runners and bar staff on his/her sales.

Heres how the math breaks down on these two examples:

Gross Sales:  1000.00                /            250.00
Gross Tips:        50.00                /              50.00
Tip out 5%:        50.00                /              12.50   
(based on sales)
Net Tips:            00.00                /              27.50

Tip out is the industry term for the money that servers give to the runners, bussers and 'tenders.

This is an example of a general rule for which an exception is needed. I just don't believe that the tipping system would produce the result you describe.

[Barbara]

The net is not the same when a server has to tip his bussers, runners and bar staff on his/her sales.

Tip out 5%:        50.00                /              12.50   
(based on sales)

OK, I think I see the problem (love your avatar, BTW). On the other thread about tipping, Kitkatpaddywak (who is a waitron at Corduroy) said just today that she shares approximately 25% of her actual TIPS, not SALES, to the other staff.

In your previous comments (I don't know how to do multiple quotes, either ), you seem to suggest that we, as diners, should know how each restaurant handles these things. Corduroy seems to be the gold standard for us; i.e., very low markups on some interesting wines, staff who both participate on this site in general (see Dirty Martini's hilarious story of how he wound up at Saint Ex--yes, I'm picturing the Very Dreamy Tom Brown in his shorts ) and answer questions about their operation, and a chef/owner who shows up here from time to time and shuts his place down to put on special dinners for us, not to mention letting us "invade" his bar for special occasions.

I would really like to hear from the servers at Corduroy about what they expect in tips on wine. Plus, Mark Slater hasn't chimed in, yet, to tell us what real sommeliers expect in terms of tips.

Enlighten us, people.

[Principia]

Plus, Mark Slater hasn't chimed in, yet, to tell us what real sommeliers expect in terms of tips.

Enlighten us, people.

Somehow I'm guessing sommeliers aren't paid $2.30 an hour. Perhaps tippage is not as relevant to a sommelier as it would be to a member of the ground troops?

[B.A.R.]

Many restaurants have servers tip support staff a percentage of their sales rather than "tips" for two reasons:

1) It is more clear cut what the support staff is owed and protects them from abusive servers who consistently shaft runners/bussers/bartenders, et al.

2) Servers generally make more money the higher the percentage of tips. For example, you are required to tip out 3.5% of your sales on a night you sell $1000. You tip out $35. If your tip percentage is only 15%, you take home less than if it were 20% or 22% etc.)

If you got tipped $50 on a $500 bottle of wine, a one minute discussion with your manager, bartender, and busser should settle the matter so you didn't work for nothing that night.

[jpbloom]

Im sure JP is a fawned over regular at more than one establishment.

Gee, I hope I didn't come off like someone like that. I'm not fawned over anywhere, and really only recognized at a few places that I frequent. I guess I don't chat up the staff enough.

My point was simply my personal belief that if you can afford the $150 bottle of wine, you can afford to tip $30 on it. The difference may be minimal to you, but could be major to the server. That doesn't work for everyone, but it works for me.

[ulysses]

Thank you Barbara.

No, I dont think the industry expects you to know all of the rules and all of the exceptions. I think this conversation got a little ahead of itself.

In all honesty if someone has enough grip to buy a $1K bottle of wine then they should probably have enough to tip on that.

I think the conversation is about 100-300 dollar bottles, because in the end thats what the majority of us consider a treat to ourselves when we dine.

Im speaking strictly for the waiters on this one. Servers like it when you tip on wine.

Tips are what makes the world go 'round. In the past when certain regulars would take care of me, I would reciprocate by buying them drinks/desserts/apps out of my own pocket. Its a pittance for me 7/9/12 dollars and if skillfullly done it could make the diner look like an owner in front of his/her party. Conversly it should be a pittance for the guest if to tip 20/40/60 dollars to the server, especially if they want to to develop that kind of repoire with the restaurant/server.

[shogun]

SO, if we were talking a hard-and-fast rule with a numerical percentage, that won't get bolongna put on the hood of your car while you're in the powder room......that would be what?

[Barbara]

Somehow I'm guessing sommeliers aren't paid $2.30 an hour. Perhaps tippage is not as relevant to a sommelier as it would be to a member of the ground troops?

My thought, exactly. I have some sympathy for Europeans who come to the US on vacation and are flummoxed by our "tip" culture. In trying to follow Miss Manners' dictums religiously, I found myself behind the eight-ball with the woman who cuts my hair. According to MM, you don't tip the owner of the salon. However, in this case, you are expected to. I'm at a loss.

The wine situation is further complicated. The number of vinters, the sheer variety, the cost is just so confusing. But, I realized that if I had the money to spend $1K on a bottle of wine, I can't imagine I would be very concerned about the tip. 20%, 30% . . . who would care (except the server, of course)?

If the IRS really assumes 8% tippage on ALL sales, then that seems to be the bottom line.

[Chris Cunningham]

This could go on forever..People tip what they feel like tipping, some with tax, some pre tax, some 10%,some 20%. Most of the people on this site seem to me, to be restaurant savvy. From the ones I know and most of my 15 years restaurant experience people are generally good, if not better tippers when you give good service and especially when you get to know your guests. Occasionally you get someone who is just cheap or eat out at Denny's and a .25 cents on a drink,or $2.00 on a $30.00 meal is "taking care of business". Thank god they are few and far in between. But it is a fact of life in restaurants. For every bad tip, someone will come along and make up for it...life will go on. If you order a $200.00 bottle of wine you should tip the full price of it. Forget complaining about the mark-up on it. Some people on this site forget that a restaurant is a business, who's goal is to make money. I agree some mark-ups are ridiculous, I have always limited my mark-ups on products because i believe in giving a good value to the guest. I also don't serve Kendall Jackson that you can buy at Safeway for $7.99. Eating out is an option, if you don't want to pay for it..take a cooking class. If you think the food is overpriced or bad, don't go back. the great thing about this country is that a restaurant exists for every budget. If you are a good tipper, you'll be remembered as that, if your a bad tipper, you'll still be remembered--I personally will give the person who leaves a .25 tip on drink the same service as one who gives me $3.00 because I'm dealing with people-humans and know that for every low tipper someone else will make it right. And if you leave a bad tip, well hey, that's the cheap guy--and we all have a friend who is one-he's just ours. As for sommeliers many are managers as well and/or paid a salary for their position. I personally would give the sommelier a little on the side for a great recommendation and especially if I knew them, but for the mostpart I would not expect to tip that individual. But if I ordered a $200.00 bottle of wine with my meal that costs an additional $100.00 for a $300.00 total, I'm going to leave at minimum-$60.00 I am a firm believer in mandatory restaurant classes for all people in general, just a five hour course before you obtain a drivers license to properly introduce you to one of life's major activities...but could we start a thread on how much this course would cost

[qwertyy]

Im speaking strictly for the waiters on this one. Servers like it when you tip on wine.

But we're back to the beginning again. OF COURSE we all want to make as much money as possible--whatever job we do. But again: what's the justification? That the consumer will be treated well? Gee, I'd hope to be treated well anyhow.

[Chris Cunningham]

The justification is that you ordered it and should be prepared to tip on it. I don't understand how people can justify "itemizing" what they are going to tip on. So let's say since it's Wednesday, that because I order an appetizer with my meal, I'm only going to tip on the the entree today, everything else I ordered should just be included? You can't go fill your car up with $50.00 worth of gas and then try to pay tax on only $22.00 of it, why do some of you think that's ok with regards to wine and dining?

[Jacques Gastreaux]

I don't understand how people can justify "itemizing" what they are going to tip on.

I think the fact that the price of a bottle of wine can vary widely provides ample justification for "itemizing." This thread is only about that single "item" not any other item that might appear on the check.

[B.A.R.]

When I waited tables, I never once expected that when a table full o' investment bankers ordered a round of Louis XIII that my stroll from the table to the POS to the bar and back was worth $140.

And I never expected to be tipped $180 for opening the '82 Mouton either. It was nice when it happened, but I understand people who choose not to tip fully on luxury wine and spirits.

[jparrott]

Two words. Servis compris. And maybe tax compris as well.

Why do we in the restaurant and dining community go out of our way to make dining awkward?? So many ways...from Italian restaurants where you can't tell what's a starter (or where pastas are main-course priced and portioned and there is no alternative), to staffs with little or no knowledge of the food, let alone the wine, to gotcha water tactics, to diners who don't know what to do when a server opens a bottle, or when to give up a table, or that they should confirm reservations, to wines marked up 400%, PLUS 10% tax, PLUS 20 to 25% tip (that's as much as 550% of wholesale, total cost when you're a bit foggy headed at the end of the night and just want to sign the check and return to your evening).

Restaurants do things and diners do (or usually don't do) things that create all these tensions, making it a lot harder for the restaurants that want to connect with people (see Ray's) and the people who want to connect with restaurants. Of course, servis compris drives prices up. And if you're a generous person, you can still tip on top of it. But it takes the guesswork out of it.

One other thing--at many restaurants with high-priced bottles, someone who orders a $200 bottle is going to get proportionally less service per dollar spent--no decanters, no one around who knows what a corked wine smells like, too much wine not pleasureable (too young) to drink that's on the list anyway and no one to steer you away, poor (or poorly washed) glasses, poor descriptions of wines ("it's fruity" or failing to warn that it's a wood bomb), insufficent time for the wine to aerate, wine at the wrong temperature, or the wrong vintage, or cooked in transit (or at the restaurant) with no one around who can recognize it, considerable trepidation on the part of the restaurant to take back a slightly flawed bottle. So at places that have some of these problems (and I'm not naming names), why should I then tip MORE for a higher-priced bottle?

Edit: to clarify and expand rant.

[bigpinot]

I think that if you're going to eat out, tipping consistently on everything you purchase should be factored into your decision of what to order. If you want to order a $1000 bottle of DRC (i.e., presumably you think $1000 is an acceptable price), you should then be prepared to tip on it too. Yes, wine is already marked up a lot, compared to the wholesale cost or the retail price, but so is the food. It's all part of the total cost of the meal you are eating.

This very issue is why I bring my own wine most of the time. I have to assume that restaurants set their corkage fees such that they cover the cost of letting me use their stemware, and recoup some "lost profitability" because I didn't buy that wine from them. The server doesn't have to worry about me sending it back, doesn't have to recommend anything to me, etc., so it is (I think) easier for them, and I still tip 20% of the bill that I receive, including the corkage fee. Seems win-win to me.

[Pappy]

I think that if you're going to eat out, tipping consistently on everything you purchase should be factored into your decision of what to order.  If you want to order a $1000 bottle of DRC (i.e., presumably you think $1000 is an acceptable price), you should then be prepared to tip on it too.  Yes, wine is already marked up a lot, compared to the wholesale cost or the retail price, but so is the food.  It's all part of the total cost of the meal you are eating. 

This very issue is why I bring my own wine most of the time.  I have to assume that restaurants set their corkage fees such that they cover the cost of letting me use their stemware, and recoup some "lost profitability" because I didn't buy that wine from them.  The server doesn't have to worry about me sending it back, doesn't have to recommend anything to me, etc., so it is (I think) easier for them, and I still tip 20% of the bill that I receive, including the corkage fee.  Seems win-win to me.

I can not possibly comprehend how you think that is a win-win situation. Assuming you are not bringing plonk with you, the restuarant received a $25 fee instead of a $100 markup on the wine (100% on a $100 wholesale bottle) and the waiter got $5 (20% of $25) instead of $40 (20% of $200).

[Barbara]

This very issue is why I bring my own wine most of the time.  I have to assume that restaurants set their corkage fees such that they cover the cost of letting me use their stemware, and recoup some "lost profitability" because I didn't buy that wine from them.  The server doesn't have to worry about me sending it back, doesn't have to recommend anything to me, etc., so it is (I think) easier for them, and I still tip 20% of the bill that I receive, including the corkage fee.  Seems win-win to me.

Oh, joy! Here we go again.

[shogun]

I think that if you're going to eat out, tipping consistently on everything you purchase should be factored into your decision of what to order.  If you want to order a $1000 bottle of DRC (i.e., presumably you think $1000 is an acceptable price), you should then be prepared to tip on it too.  Yes, wine is already marked up a lot, compared to the wholesale cost or the retail price, but so is the food.  It's all part of the total cost of the meal you are eating. 

I can accept that maybe I'm a bad person, but that seems insane to me. (Speaking as a generally poor dude who has personally bought exactly one bottle of wine in a restaurant. Punchline: The situation was such that tip wasn't involved)...what is to justify that sudden, massive increase in the bottom line? It's a seperate issue from What Is Right (If you bought some mystical $150 entree you'd probably tip against the whole thing), but if we're considering multi-hundred or even kilodollar bottles of wine, the numbers blow up quickly, but to what additional benifit? Sure, if you're buying this allegorical $1000 DRC you're not looking to minimize costs, but unless you're engaged in conspicuous consumption for some reason, you're not looking to burn cash either. If you apply 20% tip across the board, that's an extra $200. Two Hundred Dollars. Just...gone right there! $200. I need a job where I can score an extra $200 for not actually having to do that much more (Assuming we're talking waiters...tipping the Sommelier has already been covered). The restaurant is covered in the markup. All the server has to do is at minimum open and pour. <CMA> I'm all for generous tipping. Yes, waitering is a tough gig. I usually look for reasons to increase rather than decrese tip. </CMA> But...come on.

In conclusion:
1) Seriously, $200?
2) How about a few extra percentage points per bottle? Should cover the Open and Pour, as well as Consultation if applicable.

Personally, I blame server culture that makes you a contemptable, waiterrantable jackass if you don't tip 25%. This shouldn't be such a big issue.

--Matt
Who Promises Not To Feel Stiffed If He's Ever A Waiter And Somebody Doesn't Kick Him Back Two Crispy Benjamins Against The Kilodollar Wine.

/Runs. Fast.

[Principia]

I can not possibly comprehend how you think that is a win-win situation.  Assuming you are not bringing plonk with you, the restuarant received a $25 fee instead of a $100 markup on the wine (100% on a $100 wholesale bottle) and the waiter got $5 (20% of $25) instead of $40 (20% of $200).

I'd say it's a win-win situation because in his scenario no-one is being taken advantage of.

[youngfood]

I'm with Bigpinot.

As long as we tip based on percentage, why should it matter what your money was spent on or how expensive the bottle you bought was? Are we really worrying about the person who buys the $1000 bottle being able to leave a sizable tip? And if so, why should that person be tipping at a lower percentage than anyone who is on a smaller budget, but nonetheless makes certain to leave 18% on the total tab so the server knows they appreciate their efforts. Big spending tables are where servers actually make their money. I think an analogy to federal tax is appropriate: we don't let big spenders pay lesser sales tax, nor do we tax higher incomes at a lesser rate.

As long as we tip a standard percentage of the food tab, tipping percentage should remain consistent for wine tab regardless of the value of the bottle. Until we abandon percentage based tipping entirely, wine should be treated equal to food for tipping purposes.

On the other hand, with an unusually low tab, I do think it appropriate to tip above the standard percentage.

[DonRocks]

I think an analogy to federal tax is appropriate: we don't let big spenders pay lesser sales tax, nor do we tax higher incomes at a lesser rate. 

[Please let's not go down this path. Cheers, Rocks.]

[Jacques Gastreaux]

I think we are the point where it's safe to say that we are just going to have to agree to disagree. There is no right or wrong answer to the question presented by this thread. Rocks accurately predicted the outcome.

[youngfood]

I think we are the point where it's safe to say that we are just going to have to agree to disagree.  There is no right or wrong answer to the question presented by this thread.  Rocks accurately predicted the outcome.

Agreed. Cheers indeed to enjoying a nice bottle of wine with a tasty meal and good service. And to those whose prescient knowlege exceeds our own.

[Chris Cunningham]

[Please let's not go down this path.  Cheers, Rocks.]

It's a statement like this that actually frustrates me with this site. I have a love/hate concept of this site. I am admittedly addicted to it since I joined-I read it when I get up in the morning and when I come home at night because it involves my profession and I like to hear what people are thinking in general. However, this topic for example, really is a matter of personal choice-it can be argued /disscussed forever. I am however, interested in the varying degree of opinions, which until Don decides to hint that it's been discussed enough-its time to move on. Yes, it's his site and he can do whatever he wants with it, but this is interesting subject matter that is subjective. Why does it seem necessary to prod this thread in a certain direction or have the appearance to limit discussion? Obviously, any thread on this site can be redundant, overexposed,debated, or just left to die until the Segway guy decides to have a hamburger, at an outdoor patio, and not tip on his wine bottle And then a whole new thread can be started with everyone chiming in until Tom Seitsema writes a mindless blurb about it. This is a great site for the restaurant community and our guests who support us. However, My blood pressure skyrockets when I read some of these posts and I feel that I need to take a break from this site for my own general sanity because we are just people here with different opinions and ideas-right or wrong- but I need a self imposed intervention from this site. I wish you all well and hope you find that elusive-perfect restaurant/dining/drinking world that may exist...............

[B.A.R.]

I thought he was referring to comparing it to taxes and the possibility of spinning off-topic.

[DonRocks]

It's a statement like this that actually frustrates me with this site. I have a love/hate concept of this site. I am admittedly addicted to it since I joined-I read it when I get up in the morning and when I come home at night because it involves my profession and I like to hear what people are thinking in general. However, this topic for example, really is a matter of personal choice-it can be argued /disscussed forever. I am however, interested in the varying degree of opinions, which until Don decides to hint that it's been discussed enough-its time to move on. Yes, it's his site and he can do whatever he wants with it, but this is interesting subject matter that is subjective. Why does it seem necessary to prod this thread in a certain direction or have the appearance to limit discussion?

[You need to trust my experience in moderating here. The comment about income tax was okay, but a pre-emptive strike was in order to prevent the discussion from spiraling downward into a debate about income tax policies, which would soon lead to arguments about flag-burning, global warming, the war in Iraq, and eventually end with someone bringing up Hitler. Trust me on this one. Rocks.]

[Jacques Gastreaux]

It's a statement like this that actually frustrates me with this site. I have a love/hate concept of this site. I am admittedly addicted to it since I joined-I read it when I get up in the morning and when I come home at night because it involves my profession and I like to hear what people are thinking in general. However, this topic for example, really is a matter of personal choice-it can be argued /disscussed forever. I am however, interested in the varying degree of opinions, which until Don decides to hint that it's been discussed enough-its time to move on. Yes, it's his site and he can do whatever he wants with it, but this is interesting subject matter that is subjective. Why does it seem necessary to prod this thread in a certain direction or have the appearance to limit discussion? Obviously, any thread on this site can be redundant, overexposed,debated, or just left to die until the Segway guy decides to have a hamburger, at an outdoor patio, and not tip on his wine bottle And then a whole new thread can be started with everyone chiming in until Tom Seitsema writes a mindless blurb about it. This is a great site for the restaurant community and our guests who support us. However, My blood pressure skyrockets when I read some of these posts and I feel that I need to take a break from this site for my own general sanity because we are just people here with different opinions and ideas-right or wrong- but I need a self imposed intervention from this site. I wish you all well and hope you find that elusive-perfect restaurant/dining/drinking world that may exist...............

Let me rephrase: I think Rocks's comment was directed at me, not you.

[Principia]

I thought he was referring to comparing it to taxes and the possibility of spinning off-topic.

I concur (as does Rocks, from his post - he wasn't saying we aren't "allowed" to discuss the topic any longer).

Okay, so here's a thought: would it be better if restaurants just had a servis compris on wine service? Is there anyone around here who does such a thing?

[qwertyy]

[You need to trust my experience in moderating here.  The comment about income tax was okay, but a pre-emptive strike was in order to prevent the discussion from spiraling downward into a debate about income tax policies, which would soon lead to arguments about flag-burning, global warming, the war in Iraq, and eventually end with someone bringing up Hitler.  Trust me on this one.  Rocks.]

True dat. I very nearly responded to that tax silliness, but thought better of it when I read your intervention. Best to not go there. [Or did I just manage to anyhow? ]

[Jacques Gastreaux]

I concur (as does Rocks, from his post - he wasn't saying we aren't "allowed" to discuss the topic any longer).

Okay, so here's a thought: would it be better if restaurants just had a servis compris on wine service? Is there anyone around here who does such a thing?

There is a varient of servis compris that flourishes, of all places, on DR.com. Many of the events are priced all inclusive, wine tax and tip. Of course, the reason we do this is to facilitate prepayment on PayPal and so the staff at the restaurant doesn't have to run a zillion charge cards.

[B.A.R.]

I am as much to blame as anyone in flaming this "argument", but I have been surpirsied that people have become so passionate about this discussion. The number of transactions of this magnitude (wines greater than $100, $150, whatever) are relatively small.

There seem to be two camps: those that believe you should pay your 20% regardless, and those that believe that as a wines cost (or other individual luxury item) goes up, it is reasonable to diminish the tip percentage relevant to that item because you are still providing the individual servinng you with a substantial gratuity.

I'm in the latter camp, and I see a shark coming....

[Jacques Gastreaux]

And an analysis of who lives generally in each of the respective "camps" has already been provided.

[Mark Slater]

The number of transactions of this magnitude (wines greater than $100, $150, whatever) are relatively small.

Speak for yourself.