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The Palena Chicken Project


Al Dente

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New information, at least to me: I'm told that the pan-roasting step is performed on the cut side of the chicken half, not the skin side. So the crispy skin is from the high heat roasting, and the pan-roasting step is intended to sear/seal for juiciness.

Interest in recreating Palena chicken in the chen household has skyrocketed given a recent taste of the original. We were also told vanilla generally shows up in the brine in fall or winter--primary flavors this time around were star anise, clove, and tarragon. And now that I have a mean-looking set of poultry shears, I'm ready to try halving the bird, and getting yet closer to Palena-style.

Do us proud girl!!

I've heard conflicting things (from the same person) about the pan-roasting step. The first time, I was told that it was skin-side up and then the next time I was there, the same person told me that it was skin-side down. My own theory is that it is started skin side down to create a sear, crispness, and carmelization to the skin, and then finished in the oven skin side up to finish the cooking process and enhance the crispiness. Let me know how yours turns out.

Were you able to access the link to the Cook's Illustrated article that I linked about pan-roasting a brined, bone-in, chicken breast? I'm enlosing it as an attachment in PDF format.

Pan_Seared.pdf

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Thanks for the attachment! I will definitely report results. If I'm doing two halves there's no reason I can't test out two techniques side-by-side.

Maybe they're feeding us misinformation to ensure confusion...

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Maybe they're feeding us misinformation to ensure confusion...

Could be. Everything else he told you (the spices and herbs) is pretty consistant with what he told me (I assume we're talking about the same waiter).

The side-by-side comparison would be great! I'm considering doing one brine with fresh herbs and one with dried. You've REALLY inspired me to do this soon! I might have to do it the weekend of the 20th.

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Do us proud girl!!

I've heard conflicting things (from the same person) about the pan-roasting step. The first time, I was told that it was skin-side up and then the next time I was there, the same person told me that it was skin-side down. My own theory is that it is started skin side down to create a sear, crispness, and carmelization to the skin, and then finished in the oven skin side up to finish the cooking process and enhance the crispiness. Let me know how yours turns out.

Were you able to access the link to the Cook's Illustrated article that I linked about pan-roasting a brined, bone-in, chicken breast? I'm enlosing it as an attachment in PDF format.

That recipe from Cook's is my go-to weeknight chicken. The sherry-garlic and vermouth-sage pan sauces are excellent accompaniments. The crispy skin is delicious.

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That recipe from Cook's is my go-to weeknight chicken.  The sherry-garlic and vermouth-sage pan sauces are excellent accompaniments.  The crispy skin is delicious.

Stipulated: I've not eaten at Palena, much less had the chicken. However, I have been reading this thread and found myself buying a whole chicken (for $0.59 @lb on sale this week) at the Safeway. I usually just buy a package of two chicken breasts on the bone at my local Metro Market.

So, I followed the instructions that mhberk attached from Cook's Illustrated. Thank you! (Nevermind that I bought a "sweet" WHITE vermouth from my local liquor store. Who knew?) I even used the sage that I have growing outside.

I have to agree with Waitman and Mrs. B. . . I just don't LIKE brined chicken. Both Craig and I found the texture rather rubbery. I didn't see the point. There it is. HOWEVER, I have done just about everything to chicken breasts except doing the pan roast as described there. Tonight I made the leg/thigh portions from the same chicken, minus the brining, in sorta the way Cashion's makes the chicken dish; i.e., pan-roasted chicken parts with an onion, potato, bacon side. Nice crispy skin and moist meat.

Good luck to all of you who want to recreate the Palena chicken. I, however, won't be brining nothin'.

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Stipulated:  I've not eaten at Palena, much less had the chicken.  However, I have been reading this thread and found myself buying a whole chicken (for $0.59 @lb on sale this week) at the Safeway.  I usually just buy a package of two chicken breasts on the bone at my local Metro Market.

So, I followed the instructions that mhberk attached from Cook's Illustrated. Thank you! (Nevermind that I bought a "sweet" WHITE vermouth from my local liquor store.  Who knew?) I even used the sage that I have growing outside.

I have to agree with Waitman and Mrs. B. . . I just don't LIKE brined chicken.  Both Craig and I found the texture rather rubbery.  I didn't see the point.  There it is.  HOWEVER,  I have done just about everything to chicken breasts except doing the pan roast as described there.  Tonight I made the leg/thigh portions from the same chicken, minus the brining, in sorta the way Cashion's makes the chicken dish; i.e., pan-roasted chicken parts with an onion, potato, bacon side.  Nice crispy skin and moist meat.

Good luck to all of you who want to recreate the Palena chicken.  I, however, won't be brining nothin'.

The CI instruction state to brine the breasts for 30 minutes. You brined and entire chicken for only 30 minutes and found the chicken rubbery? I find it hard to believe that 30 minutes provides much time for much to happen brine wise unless the solution is very high in acid and it started to 'cook' the chicken. You should rethink the brine as it does wonders with pork loins.

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The CI instruction state to brine the breasts for 30 minutes.  You brined and entire chicken for only 30 minutes and found the chicken rubbery?  I find it hard to believe that 30 minutes provides much time for much to happen brine wise unless the solution is very high in acid and it started to 'cook' the chicken.  You should rethink the brine as it does wonders with pork loins.

I separated the chicken into parts and only brined the breasts for 30 minutes. I cooked them according to CI's recipe and time schedule. Tonight, I cooked the leg/thigh portions without brining. I have never brined a pork tenderloin and fail to see how that could improve things. (I know, I know, there is a whole "scientific" explanation for believing that soaking meat in salt water makes it more moist. Anecdotally, however, I just don't see (taste?) it.

I say again: Waitman and Mrs. B HATE brined chicken. And, never having brined chicken before, I didn't understand their objection. While I didn't "hate" the brined chicken breasts, I much more prefer unbrined chicken. I think we are getting into a matter of taste/choice here.

I DO, however, appreciate CI's method for pan roasting. Crispy skin and moist meat. Isn't that the goal? THAT'S the chicken we had for dinner tonight. :)

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While I normally agree with, or at least see the wisdom of, Mr Waitman's and Mrs B's posts, I can't fathom what they're talking about when it comes to brining. To me, the texture of a brined bird might be a little different, but it isn't inferior or lacking in any way, and brining allows you to introduce flavors into the meat more effectively than marinating.

Perhaps a taste test is in order. Would the picnic be a suitable venue for dueling chickens? Please keep in mind that cockfighting is illegal in the state of VA.

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I used to brine chicken, but now that I tried that simple Thomas Keller 450 method, I think brining is just a hassle from the standpoint of moistness, since the benefit turns out to be minimal in my experience. Getting flavor in there is another matter...

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The primary taste (if there was one) I got out of the chicken is clove. Perhaps he does change the recipe here and there, as people got other primary flavors.

I'll be there monday to verify :)

====================================

And uhh...searing != sealing. Thats an old wives tale, like salting water for green veges keeps them green or seasons them. FYI - boy I hope this starts an angry flame war!

MTK

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OK, this hasn’t been done in a while. So with Thanksgiving coming up, I thought I’d give it another try. After reading Meaghan’s article about the saline solutionand after watching a few cooking shows, I tried the brining thing again last night.

In the article, it said that Chef Ruta uses “…fennel tops, carrots, spring garlic, celery…” along with the herbs and spices. Suzanne Goin uses a similar concoction here in her brine. So with this in mind, I revamped my original brine and created something that was superior to the ones I’ve tried up until now.

Here’s what I used:

2 gallons of water

2 cup kosher salt (Diamond Crystal)

1 3/4 cups sugar

1/2 cup honey

1 lemon (halved and squeezed lightly; adding the juice AND the lemon after squeezed)

Vegetable mixture:

1/2 cup fennel (chopped)

1/2 cup carrots (cut diagonally into medium sized pieces)

1/2 cup celery (cut diagonally into medium sized pieces)

1/2 large red onion (chopped)

6 fresh sprigs each parsley, dill, thyme, tarragon, sage

3 fresh sprigs of rosemary

Dry ingredients:

1 Tbs mustard seeds

1 Tbs fennel seeds

1 cinnamon stick (break into small pieces using the bottom of a pot or pan)

2 large bay leaves

4 cloves

½ Tbs juniper berries

½ Tbs cardamom pods

1 Tbs black peppercorns

4 star anise

½ Tbs whole allspice

As I did before, I took all the dry ingredients (minus the mustard seeds and fennel seeds (both too small), and the bay leaves) and pulsed them in the food processor to grind them a little and to release the oils. Chef Goin’s method of mortal and pestle looks like it would work much better. If this is employed, add ALL dry ingredients except the bay leaves. Then I did a rough cut on the vegetables.

After that, I brought one gallon of water up to a simmer and then added the salt, sugar, and honey and stirred to dissolve them. Then I added all the other ingredients. I let them bathe for about 30 minutes and then added the other gallon of water. I put this in my refrigerator and let cool over night. The next morning I added the chicken and brined for 2 days.

I tried something a little different when it came to the roasting as well. Instead of pan roasting it or placing it on a bed of mirepoix, I copied America's Test Kitchen's method of lining the pan with sliced potatoes as shown here:

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

But instead of adding a compound butter to the chicken, I sautéed some onions (until softened) and garlic in 1/4 to 1/2 stick of butter. Then added chopped fresh sage, fresh cracked black pepper, and salt and then let that sit to incorporate the flavors. I then sliced about 7 Russet potatoes in the food processor (as shown in the videos), tossed them with the butter mixture, and lined the roasting pan (on top of foil) with them. Then I placed the chicken on a wire rack on top of the potatoes.

After the oven had been preheated to 450 for 30 minutes, I placed the roasting pan in the oven and roasted for 60 minutes (the half chickens that I get at Whole Foods are probably bigger than most and need the 60 minutes to roast).

The result was stellar! The chicken was as crisp and as juicy as ever. Only this time, it had a much deeper flavor! The potatoes (after the brined juices from the chicken dripped on them while in the oven for an hour) were out of this world and really stole the show. For the next time, I think I'll add a little Dijon mustard to the butter mixture for the potatoes and let them continue to roast after I've taken the chicken out.

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I've neglected this project for some time. I think I'll put together a batch of birds for New Year's Eve and follow your recipe mhberk! Good work!

Please do. My recipe still needs some work, but we're getting closer!

Just some advice: pace yourself with those potatoes (if you go that route)! When Mrs mhberk and I sat down to eat, we started on those first and completely neglected the chicken! :)

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I know it's the Palena CHICKEN project, but would any of the techniques/recipes/brines here work well with cornish hens or even turkeys?

Dan,

When I found the original recipe (the foundation for the one that I use), it was posted on a message board crediting Patrick O'Connell's article in the NYT and it called for chicken. When I looked through Patrick O'Connell's book: Refined American Cuisine : The Inn at Little Washington, the same recipe used Turkey and the recipe is called "Spruced up Turkey". I was going to use this brine for the turkey this year, but I got snubbed out by my sister (who will be roasting the bird this year).

Suzanne Goin uses a similar brine for her pork shoulder confit (I've placed the first part of the video on my previous post. The second part is right here).

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Could the potatoes in that recipe be mashed after cooking, or is there too much crisping/fat?

I would think that they are pretty damn good as they are and you would not want to lose all the crispiness of the outside. And there can (almost) never be too much fat in mashed potatoes.

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I have a chicken brining in my fridge as we speak. I made some additions:

1 tbl vanilla

1 tsp cumin

And a few forced substitutions (my guesses):

4 star anise => 1 1/2 tbl whole anise seed

1/2 tbl whole allspice => 1 tsp ground allspice

1/2 tbl juniper berries => 1 1/2 tbl gin (this is the one I'm most worried about!)

...to mhberk's recipe.

I know that Diamond Crystal salt crystals are a bit larger than Morton's kosher salt, so I cut back on the volume a bit.

I also don't have mhberk's patience, so rather than spending a whole day waiting for the brine to cool before putting the bird in, I just used a gallon's worth of ice at the end. I also tossed in the core of my ice cream maker for good measure. In an hour, the bird was ready to go in (this was Saturday morning).

I need some recommendations:

Tomorrow morning I'll be removing the bird and rinsing it. Should this be a light rinse or more of a thorough immersion washing?

To dry the bird, I plan on sticking a wire rack in the bottom of a large bowl, placing the chicken on it, and covering the whole thing with plastic wrap. Should I leave some air in the top to let some of the moisture out, or do I risk the chicken going bad?

If all goes well, I know what I'll be serving at my X-Mas party.

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And uhh...searing != sealing. Thats an old wives tale, like salting water for green veges keeps them green or seasons them. FYI - boy I hope this starts an angry flame war!
This is quite true. It sears in flavor the way paint protects the passengers in an auto accident. :)

All the same, I wouldn't want to drive around in an unpainted car. Searing adds the all-important flavor and texture of carmelization no matter what kind of meat you're cooking. There are very few meats I don't first pan sear before throwing them in the ol' hotbox.

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I have a chicken brining in my fridge as we speak. I made some additions:

1 tbl vanilla

1 tsp cumin

And a few forced substitutions (my guesses):

4 star anise => 1 1/2 tbl whole anise seed

1/2 tbl whole allspice => 1 tsp ground allspice

1/2 tbl juniper berries => 1 1/2 tbl gin (this is the one I'm most worried about!)

...to mhberk's recipe.

I know that Diamond Crystal salt crystals are a bit larger than Morton's kosher salt, so I cut back on the volume a bit.

I also don't have mhberk's patience, so rather than spending a whole day waiting for the brine to cool before putting the bird in, I just used a gallon's worth of ice at the end. I also tossed in the core of my ice cream maker for good measure. In an hour, the bird was ready to go in (this was Saturday morning).

I need some recommendations:

Tomorrow morning I'll be removing the bird and rinsing it. Should this be a light rinse or more of a thorough immersion washing?

To dry the bird, I plan on sticking a wire rack in the bottom of a large bowl, placing the chicken on it, and covering the whole thing with plastic wrap. Should I leave some air in the top to let some of the moisture out, or do I risk the chicken going bad?

If all goes well, I know what I'll be serving at my X-Mas party.

Firstly, I wouldn't worry about the gin. 1.5 tablespoons isn't going to ruin it.

As far as rinsing goes, I don't know that you have to do it at all. But if you do, I'd just run it under the tap for a second or two.

I don't think you should cover it with plastic wrap. That'll inhibit evaporation. As long as your fridge doesn't have any serious funk in it, the bird should be fine in the open on the rack you mentioned.

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Firstly, I wouldn't worry about the gin. 1.5 tablespoons isn't going to ruin it.

As far as rinsing goes, I don't know that you have to do it at all. But if you do, I'd just run it under the tap for a second or two.

There's a big difference between an ingredient that's going to ruin something and one that's going to add positive flavor. :)

And I thought rinsing was essential... one to remove excess salt and two to clean off agents like the sugar and honey that run the risk of burning in the oven.

I don't think you should cover it with plastic wrap. That'll inhibit evaporation. As long as your fridge doesn't have any serious funk in it, the bird should be fine in the open on the rack you mentioned.
Thank god I keep all my Parliament-Funkadelic and Sly the Family Stone LPs in the freezer. :)
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I don't think you should cover it with plastic wrap. That'll inhibit evaporation. As long as your fridge doesn't have any serious funk in it, the bird should be fine in the open on the rack you mentioned.

As Mike said, keep it uncovered. You should also consider putting it on a rack that is on a plate or cookie sheet so that the air can dry the entire bird. This drying is a key part of getting that super crispy skin.

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As Mike said, keep it uncovered. You should also consider putting it on a rack that is on a plate or cookie sheet so that the air can dry the entire bird. This drying is a key part of getting that super crispy skin.
Yep. When Scott brines chicken (I am anti-brine, personally. Yes, we have a mixed marriage) he always lets it dry in the fridge for a while on a rack after the brining is done. Otherwise the skin gets flabby.
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And uhh...searing != sealing. Thats an old wives tale, like salting water for green veges keeps them green or seasons them. FYI - boy I hope this starts an angry flame war!

This is quite true. It sears in flavor the way paint protects the passengers in an auto accident. :)

All the same, I wouldn't want to drive around in an unpainted car. Searing adds the all-important flavor and texture of carmelization no matter what kind of meat you're cooking. There are very few meats I don't first pan sear before throwing them in the ol' hotbox.

Actually, if you add a pinch of Arm and Hammer Baking Soda to green vegetables, the will turn VERY green. Similarly, if you add a dash of lemon juice to cauliflower, it will bleach the cauliflower and turn it bright white

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Yes, I was using Morton's. Mhberk's measurements were for Diamond Crystal.

Dan, the conversion ratios can be found about a minute into this video: clicky

The weight of a cup of table salt = the weight of a cup and a half of Morton Kosher salt = the weight of two cups of Diamond Crystal Kosher salt

So you multiply the Diamond Crystal by 0.75 to get the amount of Morton.

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This is quite true. It sears in flavor the way paint protects the passengers in an auto accident. :)

All the same, I wouldn't want to drive around in an unpainted car. Searing adds the all-important flavor and texture of carmelization no matter what kind of meat you're cooking. There are very few meats I don't first pan sear before throwing them in the ol' hotbox.

Actually, if you add a pinch of Arm and Hammer Baking Soda to green vegetables, the will turn VERY green. Similarly, if you add a dash of lemon juice to cauliflower, it will bleach the cauliflower and turn it bright white

Baking Soda will make them very green, but too much alkalinity will make the veggies mushy.

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That was good chicken.

Under the skin I rubbed a compound butter of sage, rosemary, garlic, pepper, and balsamic vinegar.

My wife said it tasted better than the one at Palena. :)

pb201661co3.jpg

The skin looks a little black, but that was just the lighting. It was perfectly crispy and flavorful.

pb201662wg7.jpg

Whoa that's moist chicken.

The whole thing tasted great, but I felt like the individual flavors of the various spices weren't coming out. It's possible I used a little too much salt. I also think I left the brine to simmer too hot for too long.

Definetely gonna serve this at the Christmas party.

God those potatoes were good... definetely should not be mashed.

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That was good chicken.

Under the skin I rubbed a compound butter of sage, rosemary, garlic, pepper, and balsamic vinegar.

The whole thing tasted great, but I felt like the individual flavors of the various spices weren't coming out. It's possible I used a little too much salt. I also think I left the brine to simmer too hot for too long.

Definetely gonna serve this at the Christmas party.

God those potatoes were good... definetely should not be mashed.

I take it you are now part of the brine is good crowd. BTW, how moist were the breasts? That is to me where you get the most benefit in brining.

Did it taste really salty? I doubt you lost too much water letting is simmer. Typically you need about 1/2 to 3/4 cup of salt per gallon, but as mhberk posted, it really depends on the type of salt you are using.

Not surprising that you did not taste the spices from the brine (I am assuming that is what you were missing) as the compound butter you used is going to overpower the flavors. Decide before hand which flavor profile you want. If you decide on using the compound butter (which is not a bad way to go), brine the chicken in a simple salt solution to help keep the meat moist.

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I also think I left the brine to simmer too hot for too long.

Wow! That looks excellent!! I’m salivating like Pavlov's dog over here!

I forgot to mention in my post that I bring the water to a simmer, then I take the water off the heat, THEN I add the ingredients and let them "bathe". I’m sorry I left the "take the water off the heat" part. But it looks great Dan!

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Wow! That looks excellent!! I’m salivating like Pavlov's dog over here!

I forgot to mention in my post that I bring the water to a simmer, then I take the water off the heat, THEN I add the ingredients and let them "bathe". I’m sorry I left the "take the water off the heat" part. But it looks great Dan!

I owe it all to you. :)

Actually, your initial instructions were pretty clear. I just happened to be vacuuming at the same time and forgot to take it off. :)

Oh, and I used free range, air-cooled birds from Whole Foods. I wasn't specifically seeking air-cooled, it just happened to be the first I came to. :lol:

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I guess I've been moving the thread away from a PALENA chicken project... but here goes:

Despite copious amounts of fat and non-stick cooking spray, the potatoes in the ATK recipe seem to stick mercilessly to the aluminum foil that lines the baking dish. Can anyone think of a way to prevent this? Would using parchment paper work?

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Despite copious amounts of fat and non-stick cooking spray, the potatoes in the ATK recipe seem to stick mercilessly to the aluminum foil that lines the baking dish. Can anyone think of a way to prevent this? Would using parchment paper work?
Try non-stick foil.
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Another great chicken tonight. Brined for four hours yesterday with about 3/4 spice strength brine since I wanted a mellower flavor. Dried overnight in the fridge. Did the butterfly, compound butter, and roasted over potato thing. The skin was the best yet -- even, rich brown and super crackly. The butter was probably too much though as the potatos were super greasy and needed to be blotted and stuck back in the oven for some crisping. The house smells wonderful.

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Another great chicken tonight. Brined for four hours yesterday with about 3/4 spice strength brine since I wanted a mellower flavor. Dried overnight in the fridge. Did the butterfly, compound butter, and roasted over potato thing. The skin was the best yet -- even, rich brown and super crackly. The butter was probably too much though as the potatos were super greasy and needed to be blotted and stuck back in the oven for some crisping. The house smells wonderful.
If you saw the episode on ATK, they blotted the top of the potatoes when they came out of the oven and then again when they were turned over onto a serving platter.
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I'm looking to mass-produce some Palenesque chickens for a holiday party.

I should easily be able to immerse two chickens in three gallons of water.

If I'm using a brine designed for one chicken in TWO gallons of water, should I DOUBLE the amount of seasoning, sugar, salt, etc. because I'm doubling the number of chickens, or should I increase by only 50% to account for the 1 gallon increase in water volume?

I know you're gonna say I should use FOUR gallons of water, but my 20 qt. stockpot won't really fit FOUR gallons of water, two chickens, and the mirepoix.

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Does anyone else have problems with excessive smoke from roasting chicken at high temps (475-500)? When I've done this I've wound up opening windows and my garage door even to let the smoke out. I mean, opening the oven was really a problem, and the smoke inside the oven didn't allow me to really see the chicken to check it's progress. The grease just seems to jump off the chicken, hit the oven sides and smoke right up.

Any suggestions? Anyone else have this problem?

I'd love to solve this because the crisp browned skin is awesome.

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If I'm using a brine designed for one chicken in TWO gallons of water, should I DOUBLE the amount of seasoning, sugar, salt, etc. because I'm doubling the number of chickens, or should I increase by only 50% to account for the 1 gallon increase in water volume?
Your brine should be the same concentration regardless of the number of chickens swimming around in it. In other words, if you increase your water by 50%, increase your seasonings, sugar, salt, etc. by 50%.
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Does anyone else have problems with excessive smoke from roasting chicken at high temps (475-500)? When I've done this I've wound up opening windows and my garage door even to let the smoke out. I mean, opening the oven was really a problem, and the smoke inside the oven didn't allow me to really see the chicken to check it's progress. The grease just seems to jump off the chicken, hit the oven sides and smoke right up.

Any suggestions? Anyone else have this problem?

I'd love to solve this because the crisp browned skin is awesome.

I haven't, no. Even when I'm making pizza, have the oven on at full blast, and spill half the toppings onto my pizza stone, I still don't have the level of smoke you're describing.

Maybe it's time to clean your oven. :P

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