Checking IDs in DC, MD, and VA

[RWBooneJr]

There was an issue discussed today in Todd Kliman's chat regarding restaurants and bars in DC refusing to accept foreign identification cards and instead requiring passports. For the record, this is not the law of the District.

D.C. Code § 25-783(a) provides: "A licensee shall refuse to sell, serve, or deliver an alcoholic beverage to any person who, upon request of the licensee, fails to produce a valid identification document." Additionally, D.C. Code § 25-783(b.) provides: "A licensee or his agent or employee shall take steps reasonably necessary to ascertain whether any person to whom the licensee sells, delivers, or serves an alcoholic beverage is of legal drinking age. Any person who supplies a valid identification document showing his or her age to be the legal drinking age shall be deemed to be of legal drinking age." D.C. Code § 25-101(53), in turn, provides: “'Valid identification document' means an official identification issued by an agency of government (local, state, federal, or foreign) containing, at a minimum, the name, date of birth, signature, and photograph of the bearer." (Emphasis added). Accordingly, an official identification card issued by a foreign government which includes "the name, date of birth, signature, and photograph of the bearer" is sufficient. Id.

The D.C. Code requires that all managers of any licensed establishment receive training regarding the law. So, if you or anyone you are ever with is refused entry or a drink on an otherwise valid ID, ask for a manager. It doesn't always work (not all managers know what they're doing), but it usually will.

[ETA: See disclaimer in this post.]

[Nick Freshman]

That's a big difference between Virginia and DC. It's way worse in VA: only US government IDs are OK, and even those are limited (military ID? YES, green card? NO). The only exception is a foreign passport WITH a visa. The visa, of course, being something you're not even supposed to carry around lest it be lost. It's such a ridiculous standard to uphold that we often feel like fools at the front door. Not being able to accept a Canadian driver's license or an Israeli passport is laughable. If the person is way over 21, fine, we let them in, but if they are close we hold to the law. As a consequence, we have been accused of being xenophobic. Of all the things I have been called as a bar owner, that is the most surreal one. I have honestly felt ashamed as an American. I mean, we have enough troubles with our image abroad.

I think it is a great example of the outcome of laws being written in Richmond for businesses in Northern Virginia. How many Turkish passports do you think they see down there? I had two attaches from the Turkish military who are working at the Pentagon come in last week. I mean, they work at the fucking Pentagon and I am supposed to make them give me "valid" ID?

It's also another example (another being state run ABC stores with no wholesale pricing) of the competitive disadvantage we have to overcome on this side of the river.

[RWBooneJr]

Well, unlike DC, in Virginia you aren't technically required to check IDs at all. 3 VAC 5-50-10 provides, in pertinent part, "no licensee shall sell any alcoholic beverage to a person whom he shall know, or have reason at the time to believe, is . . . Under the age of 21 years [or] Intoxicated." 3 VAC 5-50-20 provides a safe harbor for restaurants and bars, stating:

A. In determining whether a licensee, or his employee or agent, has reason to believe that a purchaser is not of legal age, the board will consider, but is not limited to, the following factors:

1. Whether an ordinary and prudent person would have reason to doubt that the purchaser is of legal age based on the general appearance, facial characteristics, behavior and manner of the purchaser; and

2. Whether the seller demanded, was shown and acted in good faith in reliance upon bona fide evidence of legal age, as defined herein, and that evidence contained a photograph and physical description consistent with the appearance of the purchaser.

The rub, as you point out, is that the only "bona fide evidence of legal age" listed is "a valid motor vehicle driver's license issued by any state of the United States or the District of Columbia, armed forces identification card, United States passport or foreign government visa, valid special identification card issued by the Virginia Department of Motor Vehicles, or any valid identification issued by any other federal or state government agency, excluding student university and college identification cards, provided such identification shall contain a photograph and signature of the subject, with the subject's height, weight and date of birth." 3 VAC 5-50-20(B.)

Still, if an "an ordinary and prudent person" would think the person was 21 based on physical characteristics, etc., then, in theory, you should be safe.

[ETA: See disclaimer in this post.]

[DonRocks]

Are you even allowed to drink in Montgomery County?

[DaveO]

@ Nick: You guys are incredibly vigilant with regard to "carding" at Spider Kelly's. I was astonished at how an "old looking dude" like me was carded there the one time I went in to try and visit my old buddy, DJ. But more power to you. I know the cops in Arlington spend more time focusing on the crowds in Clarendon.

You operators are far more aware of all the issues regarding underage drinking and problems that arise from drinking than the rest of the public, let alone the efforts that police forces use to see if places serving alcohol are abiding by the laws.

While our bar school teaches that stuff with one of the many acceptable alcohol management programs, the only way its ever effectively enforced and can effectively minimize problems is via management making it important and emphasizing it with the staff. As you know it doesn't eliminate all problems but it does tend to minimize them.

Frankly, more power to you Nick for being rigorous in that regard at the front door at Spider Kelly's. Few places pay such attention to that issue. OTOH....as you described those danged over tight rules can create stupid problems.

[RWBooneJr]

OTOH....as you described those danged over tight rules can create stupid problems.

I guess my point is that they're tight policies, not rules. Nick's policies seem smart. Requiring a passport in DC bars is just stupid. The Maryland laws, by the way, are absolutely bizarre. If the person is a resident of Maryland, they can only show a Maryland drivers license, Maryland ID, or a U.S. military ID. But if the person is not a resident, the person serving alcohol need only use "due caution." Regardless, sellers can establish a defense to liability by getting the purchaser to sign a form (apparently regardless of the ID shown, as long as one is shown).

Disclaimer: Please note, all of my posts above are merely for discussion purposes and should not be regarded as legal advice. Also, I'm not a Maryland lawyer, so perhaps someone can weigh in on how their weird laws actually work.

[lackadaisi]

When I was about 25, I was denied a drink in Maryland (Eastern Shore) because my Virginia license had a picture of my profile. It was a valid license. Now that I think about it, I am still a bit pissed off!!

[DonRocks]

When I was about 25, I was denied a drink in Maryland (Eastern Shore) because my Virginia license had a picture of my profile. It was a valid license. Now that I think about it, I am still a bit pissed off!!

Danielle what is a "picture of a profile?"

[JPW]

In 19XX I got a Quebec bus pass with my photo and a birth date that made me 21 a couple of years early. When questioned by bouncers in the states, I claimed it was an identity card because I didn't have a license. If questioned further, I started babbling in Quebecois. Never turned down. A truly great fake ID.

[Nick Freshman]

I guess my point is that they're tight policies, not rules.

That's exactly right. They are policies that match the law with regard to what passes as proof of ID, but the law does not in fact require ID to drink. If someone in the bar looks under 21, the burden is on the ABC to prove that they are not in fact of legal drinking age. We make exceptions at the door all the time knowing that the law will back us up, but we prefer to make the occasional exception as opposes to loosening the policies. The risk for us is so high that it makes more sense to treat the law as if the burden is on the customer unfortunately.

Here's a scenario that has happened a number of times: an ABC agent with a badge, a bulletproof vest and a gun will walk up to a customer at the bar and demand proof of identification. This is done without any prior warning to us, and the customers are quite often completely freaked out regardless of their age. The customer has already been ID'd and stamped by us and is minding their own business. It's harassment. To try to prevent that and to try to create a presumption that we are law abiding as a business instead of law breaking, we card hard at the door. We have lost a lot of business because of it, but we also have remained clear of any underage violations.

[lperry]

Here's a scenario that has happened a number of times: an ABC agent with a badge, a bulletproof vest and a gun will walk up to a customer at the bar and demand proof of identification. This is done without any prior warning to us, and the customers are quite often completely freaked out regardless of their age. The customer has already been ID'd and stamped by us and is minding their own business. It's harassment. To try to prevent that and to try to create a presumption that we are law abiding as a business instead of law breaking, we card hard at the door. We have lost a lot of business because of it, but we also have remained clear of any underage violations.

Wow. The only VA horror story I'd heard about was from a Trader Joe's employee in Springfield who regularly carded me when I lived and shopped down there (he's also my favorite TJ's employee ). The story was that the ABC sent an older-looking but underage agent into a TJ's to buy wine, then shut down the store's wine sales for an entire month for the violation when they sold it to her. I remember him telling me how much money they lost over the course of the month, and it was an enormous amount. Since that event, they had risked offending customers by asking for IDs fairly frequently.

I understand that it is the mandate of the ABC to enforce the law, but sometimes I feel like there are better things they could be doing with our tax dollars.

[lackadaisi]

Danielle what is a "picture of a profile?"

Sorry, a profile picture. They said that they would only accept IDs if the picture was a straight on shot of my face. I guess that, at least at that time, Virginia took profile shots when you were under 21 and full face pictures when you were over 21. But, the license was still valid, and I never had a problem anywhere other than there.

[Barbara]

When I lived in LA, before my 21st birthday, somebody gave me a legit driver's license from Minnesota (before photos were required) that described a 5'5" green-eyed redhead as a 27 year-old 6' blue-eyed blond. Nobody questioned it. I always wondered who lost her ID in LA.

[DaveO]

@Rich, @Nick: "Policy" is the appropriate word, as you two pointed out. not "rules" as I used.

From a business perspective I favor avoiding big headaches so I admire the tight carding policies at Spider Kelly's. But Nick, you are the one that lives with it, so you see all the consequences pro and con and are able to evaluate the policy vis a vis the other somewhat similar operators in Clarendon and elsewhere.

Regardless of the laws in each jurisdiction, in my experience the policies of the operators across the region have more impact on a day to day basis than the laws.

[SeanMike]

Wow. The only VA horror story I'd heard about was from a Trader Joe's employee in Springfield who regularly carded me when I lived and shopped down there (he's also my favorite TJ's employee ). The story was that the ABC sent an older-looking but underage agent into a TJ's to buy wine, then shut down the store's wine sales for an entire month for the violation when they sold it to her. I remember him telling me how much money they lost over the course of the month, and it was an enormous amount. Since that event, they had risked offending customers by asking for IDs fairly frequently.

I worked for Kroger in Roanoke for about 5 years. Our policy was if we had any question at all about an ID's validity, we were to deny them. If we sold to someone underage, we - the near-minimum wage making cashiers - would be paying the fine. (After I joined the union that may have changed, but I enjoyed my petty amount of power too much for it to be relevant.)

My favorite was the girl who didn't have ID and when carded, suddenly got an English accent and claimed her passport was in the car. She, of course, never came back in. (Second was the VMI keydet trying to buy a case of beer and two six pack of wine coolers and claiming they were all for him, none for the two giggling girls who had been in there with him and left separately. We were encouraged to deny the entire group alcohol if any of them were underage, within reason.) The close proximity of Hollins College (now Hollins University) was probably the reason for at least some of those policies.