The Bias Against "Local" Wines

[dmwine]

I've never started a thread here before, and my interventions tend to kill lively discussions, so at the risk of hearing no response but the crickets outside my window, here goes. This is something I'm working on for my blog or newsletter, based on my recent experience judging the 2d Annual Atlantic Seaboard Vinifera Wine Competition. I'll include more on the competition later if there's any interest. But I'd love everyone's thoughts about these points:

Although I live along the East Coast, I find a distressing amount of consumer resistance to the idea that good wine can be grown here. “Oh yeah, I hear there’s good wine in New York, but we can’t get it here,” is a common complaint (or excuse) in the DC area. Or I hear this one: “Yeah, this is an excellent wine from Virginia, but the nerve of them to charge 20 bucks ” This from people who wouldn’t flinch at paying a little more at a farmer’s market for fresh produce or cheese that is “local.”

There is also consumer resistance to unusual grapes. Wines from Petit Manseng or the tongue-twisting Rkatsiteli (think of it as Fluffy channeling Animal Planet) can be ripe, beautifully structured and thrilling (yes, I’m thinking of Horton and Dr. Konstantin Frank, respectively), but they are also unfamiliar to our palates, and many people just can’t get over their fear of the unknown.

There’s an unspoken bias that says, “If the wine is from [iNSERT NAME OF ANY ONE OF 47 STATES HERE], it must be crap, unless it proves to me otherwise. If it’s from California/Oregon/Washington, it must be good, unless it proves otherwise.”

Good wine is grown here, and it really is irrelevant that $20 will give you more options in California Merlot than equal quality Virginia Cab Franc. There’s plenty of bad wine produced in California, after all. We can no longer assume that local wine is bad and insist that they prove otherwise - we just have to learn to accept these wines for what they are.

We as consumers (and writers) need to open our minds to new grape varieties and new flavors, and stop mentally subtracting points from East Coast wines simply because they are not from California, Italy, France or anywhere else. They are what they are, and they are getting better all the time. Let’s applaud that. (Note to winemakers: You can help us change our outlook if, whenever you manage to ripen your Cabernet Franc, you stop comparing it to Cheval Blanc.)

[JPW]

While I'll agree that there is some consumer resistance, I think that you ascribe a little too much blame to the consumer alone. I can't remember ever being in a store where a Virginia wine was being poured at a tasting. Also, I bet that we would be hard pressed to name more than a handful of local restaurants that had a significant Virginia wine presence on their list.

On the price point, I think that the analogy with farmers' markets is a little off. I like grower sold produce and meat because not only does it tend to be organic and thus better for you, but a peach allowed to ripen fully on the tree tastes a thousand times better than something picked early and shipped 2000 miles to ripen in the store. That's what I'm paying a premium for, helping out the independent farmer is merely a positive externality.

If I can find a Cali Cab Franc for $10 that is just as good as one from VA for $20, I can't see paying the $20.

That said there are indeed some excellent East Coast wines. I'd put the Hermann J Weimer (Finger Lakes) Rieslings and Gewurtztraminers up against just about any other produced. When I lived in upstate NY I also became addicted to a couple of the Seyval Blancs (Lucas for example) for an everyday summer white at about $6 a bottle. Unfortunately, a combination of the NY and Monkey County shipping laws have made it difficult to procure a regular supply. Dennis Horton produces some very good wines, I especially liked his viognier. Now if only I could find some that was produced this century...

PS - Horton's Petit Manseng, while interesting to taste, didn't really float my boat.

[Escoffier]

Good wine is grown here, and it really is irrelevant that $20 will give you more options in California Merlot than equal quality Virginia Cab Franc. There's plenty of bad wine produced in California, after all. We can no longer assume that local wine is bad and insist that they prove otherwise - we just have to learn to accept these wines for what they are.

We have found that the wines from Linden Vineyards are very nice. The Cabernet Franc is excellent. Majestic Cafe in Alexandria carries almost the entire Linden catalog and features it prominently.

[treznor]

Virginia Wineries

There's already a thread on Virginia wineries, and since DC and MD make diddly for wine...

I've been to a number of the Virginia wineries (oh, maybe 20 or so) and tasted a number of others (another 20 or so I'd guess). I love the Virginia countryside and the scenery at alot of the wineries. The actual wine is decent, though you'll more than likely not find anything truly earth-moving. Alot of it is over-priced for what it is, but I'm willing to pay a bit more to be able to go to the winery and try all their wines and pick what I want (which is how I buy almost all of my Virginia wine). The New York Finger Lakes region has been producing good white wine, particularly the sweeter white wines, for long enough that people that turn their nose up at Finger Lakes Reisling are either ill-informed or just plain silly.

[Waitman]

Although I live along the East Coast, I find a distressing amount of consumer resistance to the idea that good wine can be grown here. “Oh yeah, I hear there’s good wine in New York, but we can’t get it here,” is a common complaint (or excuse) in the DC area. Or I hear this one: “Yeah, this is an excellent wine from Virginia, but the nerve of them to charge 20 bucks ” This from people who wouldn’t flinch at paying a little more at a farmer’s market for fresh produce or cheese that is “local.”

There is also consumer resistance to unusual grapes. Wines from Petit Manseng or the tongue-twisting Rkatsiteli (think of it as Fluffy channeling Animal Planet) can be ripe, beautifully structured and thrilling (yes, I’m thinking of Horton and Dr. Konstantin Frank, respectively), but they are also unfamiliar to our palates, and many people just can’t get over their fear of the unknown.

One important difference between paying premium prices for local produce and premium prices for local wines is that the local produce tends to be tastier than the "imported" stuff, whereas the local wines tend to be suckier (at a given price point).

There are indeed some good wines coming out of Virginia, but they tend to charge premium prices. As for the rest, I've had too many bottles of mediocre-to-bad wine costing 15 to 25 dollars a bottle not to approach loacal wines with extreme skepticism. Last spring I went to a wine tasting dinner for a prominent Virginia winery (who's name now escapes me) and, of the five wines, none of which were less than $20 a bottle, one was quite good two were OK and two were kind of nasty (IMHO), not a very high slugging percentage.

I don't think you can blame consumers for this. Generally speaking, I don't think the price/value relationship is there.

[Mark Slater]

I tend to buy wines for the restaurant that customers ask about. If more than one person asks for a specific kind of wine, I'll usually find it knowing I have a ready customer for it. No one has ever asked me about local wines, although I do carry a few of them on the list. I do remember, however, playing a game of Vin Mystere with a well known local chef and a well known local food website owner using a Virginia Meritage. Their answers were interesting.

[Escoffier]

Virginia Wineries

The New York Finger Lakes region has been producing good white wine, particularly the sweeter white wines, for long enough that people that turn their nose up at Finger Lakes Reisling are either ill-informed or just plain silly.

Actually, Glenora produces a really good DRY Reisling that I am trying to find here. We only bought one bottle and it went too fast.

[dmwine]

Actually, Glenora produces a really good DRY Reisling that I am trying to find here. We only bought one bottle and it went too fast.

The Finger Lakes wineries produce some excellent dry Riesling.

Thank you all for the comments. I agree the farmer's market analogy may be questionable, but some of the comments here echo my main points - we assume local wines are "sucky", therefore they have to prove to us that they are not, while we assume California wines are good, unless they prove to us they are not. I'm not talking about comparing a $10 California Cab Franc with a $20 Virginia, but equal prices and equal quality (if different flavors!!!!) - the average consumer (and these are relatively enlightened consumers even to get this far) would still likely argue the Virginia wine is over priced because $20 seems like too much to pay for a wine that is by definition "sucky".

This is a tenuous and difficult argument I'm proposing, and I fully recognize the inherent tautology. But I feel that local wines are not getting an even playing field. Yes, they need to earn it, but increasingly they are. I judged this East Coast contest two years running now, and there is some delicious Tannat being produced in Georgia, delectably fruity Caberent Sauvignon from New Jersey, Viognier and Cab Franc from North Carolina. Chaddsford in Pennsylvania makes some of the best darn $20 Chard I've ever tasted.

Last month's contest featured 20 judges, most of them professionals (chefs, sommeliers, writers, importers and retailers) and a few amateurs (knowledgeable consumers). Yet I heard judges subtracting points because "they cost too much" - even though the wineries and prices were unknown to us. If these people, in such a context, cannot divorce their perception of the prices from their judgment of the wines, I can only imagine what consumers do at the retail shelf.

For Virginia wines, DC seems a natural market, except for the distribution laws. I've long argued that Virginia should make a concerted attack on Washington - Lee failed, but Dennis Horton could succeed. But I understand why they're wary of making such an effort.

[Waitman]

The Finger Lakes wineries produce some excellent dry Riesling.

Thank you all for the comments. I agree the farmer's market analogy may be questionable, but some of the comments here echo my main points - we assume local wines are "sucky", therefore they have to prove to us that they are not, while we assume California wines are good, unless they prove to us they are not. I'm not talking about comparing a $10 California Cab Franc with a $20 Virginia, but equal prices and equal quality (if different flavors!!!!) - the average consumer (and these are relatively enlightened consumers even to get this far) would still likely argue the Virginia wine is over priced because $20 seems like too much to pay for a wine that is by definition "sucky".

Let's be clear - an assumption based on long experience (I've been drinking Virginia wines for 20 years) is neither irrational nor unfair, it's simply common sense. I happily pay $20 a bottle for Horton, I just don't see many other Virginia wineries offering wines of that quality even though they often sell at that price.

(And, I certainly don't assume that California wines are uniformly non-sucky, either.)

[dmwine]

Let's be clear - an assumption based on long experience (I've been drinking Virginia wines for 20 years) is neither irrational nor unfair, it's simply common sense. I happily pay $20 a bottle for Horton, I just don't see many other Virginia wineries offering wines of that quality even though they often sell at that price.

The list is growing: Breaux, Barboursville, Veritas, Rappahannock Cellars, Chrysalis, Linden, Keswick, Blenheim, White Hall (reasonably priced!!), Rockbridge, Michael Shaps, Wintergreen, to name a few off the top of my head. Consistently good and on the whole getting better each year, even in crappy weather.

In the recent contest, I even scored a Chateau Morrissette Cab Franc highly; I never thought that would happen based on my previous experience with them (thank goodness for blind tasting!). And Oakencroft seems to have revived.

Most of these places apparently sell enough wine to stay in business, even though availability, price and consumer skepticism are obstacles. (And the recent Virginia law that has already knocked Farfelu out of business.)

[Waitman]

The list is growing: Breaux, Barboursville, Veritas, Rappahannock Cellars, Chrysalis, Linden, Keswick, Blenheim, White Hall (reasonably priced!!), Rockbridge, Michael Shaps, Wintergreen, to name a few off the top of my head. Consistently good and on the whole getting better each year, even in crappy weather.

In the recent contest, I even scored a Chateau Morrissette Cab Franc highly; I never thought that would happen based on my previous experience with them (thank goodness for blind tasting!). And Oakencroft seems to have revived.

Most of these places apparently sell enough wine to stay in business, even though availability, price and consumer skepticism are obstacles. (And the recent Virginia law that has already knocked Farfelu out of business.)

Nice list; one's even reasonably priced!

The few names on your list that I recognize have not tickled my fancy in the past (that means you, Barboursville), but I am now inspired to pick up a bottle or two and see what's what. I will report back.

[dmwine]

The few names on your list that I recognize have not tickled my fancy in the past (that means you, Barboursville),

My eye-opener experience with Barboursville came a few years back when I was tasting a lot of East coast wines for an article. I opened the Barboursville 1998 Cab Franc along with the Millbrook 1998 Proprietor's Reserve Cab Franc from Hudson Valley, NY. Both tasted fine but unexciting. I put the corks back in the 3/4-full bottles and went on to something else. The next night, both wines had opened magnificently and knocked my socks off. A complete transformation.

Of course, this results in me raving about these wines and people pulling a cork, taking a sip and saying "Eh, it's OK." Then they finish the bottle because it's open, not realizing the treasure of delayed gratification. And they conclude that I'm nuts.

This characteristic has obvious potential for aging the wines, but just-as-obvious problems for putting them on restaurant wine lists. "Umm, for my reservation tomorrow, could you please open a Barbie for me tonight?"

[dinwiddie]

There is no doubt that Virginia wines have improved greatly in the last five years or so, but for me they are still the wines that I buy only when I make a trip to the winery because my wife and I want a nice drive in the country. The best quality VA wines are just not price competative with wines of similar quality from the west coast, Australia or Spain.

[treznor]

Actually, Glenora produces a really good DRY Reisling that I am trying to find here. We only bought one bottle and it went too fast.

I wasn't trying to imply that the only New York whites that are good are sweet, only that the "sweetier" varietels are what they are best at, i.e. they excel at Riesling, and have good Gewurtztraminer, eiswein, and I'm sure I'm missing a varietal or two since I'm not as familiar with New York white as I am Virginian wine. Granted Riesling can be made in a dry style, but I'd tend to call it a "sweeter" wine than a Chardonnay, though that may only be a classification that I use. I don't believe I'd rush to try any New York Chard though :-)

[ol_ironstomach]

While I'll agree that there is some consumer resistance, I think that you ascribe a little too much blame to the consumer alone. I can't remember ever being in a store where a Virginia wine was being poured at a tasting.

FWIW, the Opera House Gourmet in old town Manassas holds tastings of Virginia wines on a regular basis, and stocks the wines of nearly all of the better-regarded Virginia wineries mentioned here. The staff will gladly talk your ears off about Virginia wines.

As others have said, there are some tasty local wines to be had, but plenty of not-so-good wines, and few bargains. What I don't understand is why, if a particular wine needs a specific but simple procedure to metamorphosize from ugly larvae to beautiful butterfly, it doesn't say so on the bottle. A simple neck tag, even a few handwritten notes taped to the store shelf would do...anything, really, to indicate how this particular wine shows its best at the moment, especially if it requires more than pulling the cork and pouring. It shouldn't take any more effort than many stores already put into clipping out the latest WS review and taping it under the display. You get more instructions with a Chia Pet than with a bottle of wine, and the Chia Pet is less likely to begin with to turn into an (avoidably) expensive disappointment with long-term disdain for its manufacturer.

Usual caveat: I'm an utter novice when it comes to wine.

[Escoffier]

I wasn't trying to imply that the only New York whites that are good are sweet, only that the "sweetier" varietels are what they are best at, i.e. they excel at Riesling, and have good Gewurtztraminer, eiswein, and I'm sure I'm missing a varietal or two since I'm not as familiar with New York white as I am Virginian wine. Granted Riesling can be made in a dry style, but I'd tend to call it a "sweeter" wine than a Chardonnay, though that may only be a classification that I use. I don't believe I'd rush to try any New York Chard though :-)

When we were there, we bought a couple of NY Chardonnay's...you're close enough, when we open one, I'll PM you and you can come and taste.

I understood your message, I just like really dry wines and was under the impression that most NY state wines could substitute for cough syrup. The reisling was about a 1.5 and as crisp as you could want. I'm looking for more.

[dmwine]

I wasn't trying to imply that the only New York whites that are good are sweet, only that the "sweetier" varietels are what they are best at, i.e. they excel at Riesling, and have good Gewurtztraminer, eiswein, and I'm sure I'm missing a varietal or two since I'm not as familiar with New York white as I am Virginian wine. Granted Riesling can be made in a dry style, but I'd tend to call it a "sweeter" wine than a Chardonnay, though that may only be a classification that I use. I don't believe I'd rush to try any New York Chard though :-)

There are some very nice NY chards, which tend to be made in a less-oaky or even unoaked style, therefore more emphasis on fruit. Again, it's not your California wine. Chateau Lafayette-Renault makes a nice one (and some great dry Riesling). Millbrook from Hudson River makes a nice chard in a more oaky style. From Long Island, one of the flat-out best chards I've ever had was Pellegrini - very Burgundian and only about $15 a bottle. That one could put California $45 chards to shame.

In the self-promotion department, I wrote about NY wines last year in the San Francisco Chronicle Wine section.

[winecompass]

There are countless quality Virginia wines for around $10. Try the Horton Viognier, Norton, or Rkatsiteli. Prince Michel has a great low cost dry riesling. You can find low cost wines at the wine-compass.com search engine. There are also decent Maryland wines at the same value. Wine-compass also contains a retail section for each state that lists wine shops that sell local wine.

[dmwine]

There are countless quality Virginia wines for around $10. Try the Horton Viognier, Norton, or Rkatsiteli. Prince Michel has a great low cost dry riesling. You can find low cost wines at the wine-compass.com search engine. There are also decent Maryland wines at the same value. Wine-compass also contains a retail section for each state that lists wine shops that sell local wine.

Your "countless" $10 wines are old, out-of-date vintages and therefore closeouts rather than current releases, one suspects. Plus, your web site doesn't say how or where to buy them, even if one was willing to take a chance that they were still good (which some reds might be, especially from 1998 in VA) and stored properly.

I tasted the 2005 Horton Viognier the other day at a friend's house, and it was delicious. I didn't ask how much it cost, but I'd wager it's more than $10.

I wish more good VA wines were $10, but I don't think the economics can support that for the wineries.

[treznor]

I've probably tasted 150-200 wines from Virginian wineries. Some of it's plonk, some of it's good, but very little of it is $10. There are a couple producers that put out $10 wines, but for the most part the economy of scale just isn't there for VA wineries to be able to do that.

[Keithstg]

I tasted the 2005 Horton Viognier the other day at a friend's house, and it was delicious. I didn't ask how much it cost, but I'd wager it's more than $10.

Schneider's has the Horton Viognier for $15.99 - even with a case discount, way more than $10.

[JPW]

I tasted the 2005 Horton Viognier the other day at a friend's house, and it was delicious. I didn't ask how much it cost, but I'd wager it's more than $10.

How did he do that? Last year at the Vineyard they were pouring 1999. You could taste that it was good wine, but it was definitely on its last legs.

Schneider's has the Horton Viognier for $15.99 - even with a case discount, way more than $10.

Do you remember the vintage?

[Pete]

Do you remember the vintage?

Per their website, Schneider's is selling the 2004 vintage for $15.99. I find it interesting that on Horton's website they are only selling the 2001 Viognier ($10/bottle).

[JPW]

Per their website, Schneider's is selling the 2004 vintage for $15.99. I find it interesting that on Horton's website they are only selling the 2001 Viognier ($10/bottle).

Might have to track the '04 down. 2001? Remnants and Remainders.

[Cooter]

Per their website, Schneider's is selling the 2004 vintage for $15.99. I find it interesting that on Horton's website they are only selling the 2001 Viognier ($10/bottle).

Looking at my cellartracker, we got a bottle of the 2005 for 11.99 at Safeway back in June. I seem to recall that it was on sale. We also sent out to the winery in July and I'm pretty certain that they were pouring the 2005, but I'm not 100% sure.

In any case, it's delicious! I've also found Horton's Cab Franc to be consistently excellent in the $10-$12 range. I think that their latest release is the 2000 vintage, but I find the 1999 mixed in pretty randomly at area grocery stores.

[Neil Glaser]

Looking at my cellartracker, we got a bottle of the 2005 for 11.99 at Safeway back in June. I seem to recall that it was on sale. We also sent out to the winery in July and I'm pretty certain that they were pouring the 2005, but I'm not 100% sure.

In any case, it's delicious! I've also found Horton's Cab Franc to be consistently excellent in the $10-$12 range. I think that their latest release is the 2000 vintage, but I find the 1999 mixed in pretty randomly at area grocery stores.

You should be able to find the Horton Viognier in the $12 - $15 range on the shelf. The Cab Franc a little bit less. With the Viognier we try to price it to compete with the likes of the RH Phillips EXP.

I would have to agree that I find that many local wines (not naming names) are overpriced per quality. At Horton we taste our wines against what we perceive as our competition and invariably that turns out to be California wines. Our standard 2005 Black Cat Chardonnay (approx. $10 list at stores) is a wine that we price to compete with KJ's Reserve Chardonnay. I love presenting the Chardonnay to a restaurant and knocking off KJ's. We like to think we got them beat with quality and price.

Wines like Petit Manseng ($20) and Rkatsiteli ($14) are priced not only on quality, but also on the rarity of grape and style.

And finally the vintage thing with the Viognier the past few years. Hey, we got way behind. We tried to keep current vintages on the shelf in the real world and tried to move the older Viognier at the winery. We didn't begin this practice until too late, and some older vintages ended up on the shelf. We now have a good program in place and should be able to have young vintages of Viognier on the shelf consistently. Atleast we hope we have learned from our mistakes. The 2005 was our 15th vintage picked, so we are still a fairly young winery working out the kinks.

Cheers,

Neil Glaser (Horton Vineyards)

What's said in Rockwells, stays in Rockwells (right?)

[JPW]

Neil,

Thanks for the input. I do really enjoy your Viognier. It's just that a 6 year old one was starting to show its years. I'm glad to hear others reports that more recent vintages are available in stores.

As a regular traveler up and down Rt 29, I hope to stop in again soon.

[Cooter]

You should be able to find the Horton Viognier in the $12 - $15 range on the shelf. The Cab Franc a little bit less. With the Viognier we try to price it to compete with the likes of the RH Phillips EXP.

...snip...

Cheers,

Neil Glaser (Horton Vineyards)

What's said in Rockwells, stays in Rockwells (right?)

Thanks for the reply and welcome to the board, Neil. We serve your Cab Franc as our "house wine" and always try to bring a couple of bottles when we visit my parents in the bay area. I think that they enjoy pouring Virginia wines for their California wine country friends.

The wife and I had a great time visiting the winery. Talking to Mr. Horton was a hoot.

[Waitman]

Neil:

I would have to agree that I find that many local wines (not naming names) are overpriced per quality. At Horton we taste our wines against what we perceive as our competition and invariably that turns out to be California wines. Our standard 2005 Black Cat Chardonnay (approx. $10 list at stores) is a wine that we price to compete with KJ's Reserve Chardonnay. I love presenting the Chardonnay to a restaurant and knocking off KJ's. We like to think we got them beat with quality and price.

Wines like Petit Manseng ($20) and Rkatsiteli ($14) are priced not only on quality, but also on the rarity of grape and style.

Wooo, even better than Kendall-Jackson?

Sorry, Couldn't help myself.

[Turns snide switch to "off"]

Being already on record in saying bad things about Virginia wines in general but in support of your winery in particular I guess I can ask this:

Do you feel that your wines benefit because, instead of "forcing" well-know varieties into the vinyards, you work with lesser-known grape varieties that produce better wines in your particular region? In other words, "New World" wineries, free of law and tradition, can plant anything anywhere (what region doesn't produce cheap Merlot these days?) But some grape/terroire (if you will) combos just seem to work better: Argentinian Malbec, say; Oregon Pinots, Aussi Shiraz or, for that matter, traditional combinations like Tuscan Sangiovese or Alsatian Gewurtztraminer. Are market forces and, perhaps, over-caution by growers, resulting in the planting of cabernets and chardonnay grapes when more obscure grapes like Viogner and Cabernet France (I have tried and liked both) or Petit Manseng and Rkatsiteli (looking forward to trying) would actually be a better mtach for Virginia growing conditions?

[dmwine]

What's said in Rockwells, stays in Rockwells (right?)

Hi Neil -

Thanks for chiming in. As a wine journalist using this board to bounce some ideas off knowledgable wine/food lovers, let me reassure you and others that I have no intention of quoting anyone anywhere from this board without asking permission.

That said, I will echo your comments on the Chardonnay. It showed rather well (on my tasting sheet at least) at the recent Atlantic Seaboard competition. Here's my article on that, which grew out of my musings in this thread.

And I do want to talk to you about the Rkats ...!

Do you feel that your wines benefit because, instead of "forcing" well-know varieties into the vinyards, you work with lesser-known grape varieties that produce better wines in your particular region? In other words, "New World" wineries, free of law and tradition, can plant anything anywhere (what region doesn't produce cheap Merlot these days?) But some grape/terroire (if you will) combos just seem to work better: Argentinian Malbec, say; Oregon Pinots, Aussi Shiraz or, for that matter, traditional combinations like Tuscan Sangiovese or Alsatian Gewurtztraminer. Are market forces and, perhaps, over-caution by growers, resulting in the planting of cabernets and chardonnay grapes when more obscure grapes like Viogner and Cabernet France (I have tried and liked both) or Petit Manseng and Rkatsiteli (looking forward to trying) would actually be a better mtach for Virginia growing conditions?

Dennis Horton's restlessness with grape varieties and his experimentation are undoubtedly one of the major factors - if not the major factor - in the growth of the Virginia wine industry.

[Kathy M]

Hi Neil -

Thanks for chiming in. As a wine journalist using this board to bounce some ideas off knowledgable wine/food lovers, let me reassure you and others that I have no intention of quoting anyone anywhere from this board without asking permission.

That said, I will echo your comments on the Chardonnay. It showed rather well (on my tasting sheet at least) at the recent Atlantic Seaboard competition. Here's my article on that, which grew out of my musings in this thread.

And I do want to talk to you about the Rkats ...!

Dennis Horton's restlessness with grape varieties and his experimentation are undoubtedly one of the major factors - if not the major factor - in the growth of the Virginia wine industry.

Having also been a judge (there were 20 of us) at the Atlantic Seaboard competition, I have to chime in on behalf of the Afton Vineyards 2004 Cab Franc - well made, balanced and seriously tasty. I have no idea what it costs, and it may be a moot point - I just found out that Afton's distributor does not deliver in this area. (Virginia wineries are no longer permitted to sell directly to restaurants and retailers)

So if your Virginia wine route ever takes you near Afton, it's worth stopping in.

[treznor]

I keep meaning to make it to Horton, but keep not making it. I guess it's a bit further than some of the other wineries but I'll get there sometime soon! Horton more than likely delivers the highest quality/cost ratio of any winery in Virginia. There are others that I like better, but few that deliver at the cost that Horton does. And a winery setting it's sites on beating KJ is admirable I think. Virginia doesn't have the large body of knowledge about the local environment as CA does about it's wine. Putting out a wine that competes with a wine that is consistent and good (not great, just good) and beats that wine on quality and taste is a good goal, especially at the price point that Horton puts alot of it's wine out at.

One of the more memorable wineries for me at Vintage Virginia this year was Afton. I really didn't like the wines all that much this year at Vintage Virginia. Not sure if it's because of the weather, or because I had just gotten out of a football game, or if the wine this year just isn't great, but nothing really stood out to me. I do remember the Horton Viognier and the crowd that it drew. I remember Afton mainly because they had a Gewurtztraminer, a grape that I have a fondness for, particularly because I like spicy food and Gewurtz goes so well with spicy food. Unfortunately Afton's Gewurtz didn't do it for me at all. Don't know if the climate and soil in Virginia would produce good Gewurtz at all and I don't think I've seen another Viginian winery producing the grape. I did think the Cab Franc from Afton was their best wine, though I didn't pick any up as my GF isn't a fan of Cab Franc in general.

[Seanchai]

Wooo, even better than Kendall-Jackson?

Sorry, Couldn't help myself.

[Turns snide switch to "off"]

Being already on record in saying bad things about Virginia wines in general but in support of your winery in particular I guess I can ask this:

Do you feel that your wines benefit because, instead of "forcing" well-know varieties into the vinyards, you work with lesser-known grape varieties that produce better wines in your particular region? In other words, "New World" wineries, free of law and tradition, can plant anything anywhere (what region doesn't produce cheap Merlot these days?) But some grape/terroire (if you will) combos just seem to work better: Argentinian Malbec, say; Oregon Pinots, Aussi Shiraz or, for that matter, traditional combinations like Tuscan Sangiovese or Alsatian Gewurtztraminer. Are market forces and, perhaps, over-caution by growers, resulting in the planting of cabernets and chardonnay grapes when more obscure grapes like Viogner and Cabernet France (I have tried and liked both) or Petit Manseng and Rkatsiteli (looking forward to trying) would actually be a better mtach for Virginia growing conditions?

As someone living in the heart of central VA wine country for the past 11 years, that is a very apt observation. 10 years ago nearly all wineries down here had the nothing but the usual suspects: Chard, Cab Sav and Merlot with pretty mediocre results. Led the way at least in part by Horton, Cab Franc and Viognier are varietals that are recognized to do particularly well in VA and more and more wineries are hopping on the bandwagon. Dennis Horton is the mad scientist throwing vines in the ground and seeing what sticks. Plus, the wine-making skill of the various wineries is improving to the point where you're starting to have less of the wild variability in taste from year to year and are having a more consistently good (not great) product. Now if we can do something about the prices ...

[winecompass]

Horton's Viognier current vintage sells for $10 at the winery, so you are probably paying a good premium at Schneiders. Horton also has several current vintages under or just over $10. Barboursville Vineyards has a Chardonnay and Riesling under $10; Prince Michel Winery and Abingdon Vineyard & Winery have several wines for sale at or under $10; all current vintages. If you increase your budget by $5, there are even more excellent wines available. Yea, I have a little problem paying over $20 for a VA wine to use as everyday dinner wine, but that's why you should attend festivals, sample which wines you like, then splurge on occasion, on the one's you like.

[dmwine]

Don't know if the climate and soil in Virginia would produce good Gewurtz at all and I don't think I've seen another Viginian winery producing the grape.

White Hall near Charlottesville makes an excellent Gewurz, rather Alsatian in style, keeping the floral aspects from going over the top but retaining all that wonderful lychee flavor ...

[winecompass]

Actually, I was completed wrong about the price of Horton's Viognier. It is now $20. A previous vintage was $10, but a guess with its success, they've doubled the price. I apologize for submitted incorrect information. Go to Schneiders.

[Neil Glaser]

Actually, I was completed wrong about the price of Horton's Viognier. It is now $20. A previous vintage was $10, but a guess with its success, they've doubled the price. I apologize for submitted incorrect information. Go to Schneiders.

$20 for the current vintage at the winery..... $10 for the 2001 while it lasts. You will find the current Vintage of 2005 on the retail shelves at a sales price of between $12 - $15... depending on the type of store and their mark-up. The sales price on the retail shelves has been in place for 2 years. We haven't fully given up on the $20 retail price for the future.

I hope that makes as little sense as it sounds.

Neil Glaser

Horton Vineyards

[Pete]

I found the 2005 Horton Viognier for $13.50 at Wegman's. They offer 5% discounts for case purchases.

[CrescentFresh]

$20 for the current vintage at the winery..... $10 for the 2001 while it lasts. You will find the current Vintage of 2005 on the retail shelves at a sales price of between $12 - $15... depending on the type of store and their mark-up. The sales price on the retail shelves has been in place for 2 years. We haven't fully given up on the $20 retail price for the future.

I hope that makes as little sense as it sounds.

Neil Glaser

Horton Vineyards

Neil, Are you saying that we should expect to pay more at the winery? If so, why?

Our standard 2005 Black Cat Chardonnay (approx. $10 list at stores) is a wine that we price to compete with KJ's Reserve Chardonnay. I love presenting the Chardonnay to a restaurant and knocking off KJ's. We like to think we got them beat with quality and price.

The 2005 Black Cat Chardonnay is listed as $15 on the Horton winery website.

[jwhite]

I would have to agree that I find that many local wines (not naming names) are overpriced per quality. At Horton we taste our wines against what we perceive as our competition and invariably that turns out to be California wines. Our standard 2005 Black Cat Chardonnay (approx. $10 list at stores) is a wine that we price to compete with KJ's Reserve Chardonnay. I love presenting the Chardonnay to a restaurant and knocking off KJ's. We like to think we got them beat with quality and price.

Neil,

I cannot tell whether or not you are being facetious. On multiple levels this paragraph is staggering; please elaborate on your meaning. Are you stating that you believe your chardonnay stands up to equivalently priced californians, that you believe kendall jackson is a competitor, both, or some other assertion which I've missed?

J

[dinwiddie]

I don't disagree with Neil's statement, but not having tasted his Black Cat Chard, I can't say whether it is as good as the KJ Reserve. However, I dont' find the KJ Reserve to be drinkable either so saying it is comprable is not much of a selling point. The point I tried to make much earlier in this thread was that while VA wines have improved greatly in quality, the best are just so overpriced as opposed to comprable wines that are available from CA, but more recently Spain and South America, that they are not much of a value. I actually liked the Horton Viognier that I had, but it was several years ago. However, I still find that there a better Viogniers available from Australia for the same price. That said, when my wife and I take a trip to Virginia "Wine Country" we buy a few wines here and there and enjoy them, but not because they were a good buy, but rather because we had an enjoyable drive and wanted something to show for it besides just the memory.

[dmwine]

I cannot tell whether or not you are being facetious. On multiple levels this paragraph is staggering; please elaborate on your meaning. Are you stating that you believe your chardonnay stands up to equivalently priced californians, that you believe kendall jackson is a competitor, both, or some other assertion which I've missed?

What's so staggering? Face it, K-J Chard is the market leader, even if everyone here would turn up a nose at the very thought of drinking it. If you were making quality wine wouldn't you want to compare it to the best-known brand in the market? And if yours were better, wouldn't you be telling everyone within earshot?

[Mark Slater]

What's so staggering? Face it, K-J Chard is the market leader, even if everyone here would turn up a nose at the very thought of drinking it. If you were making quality wine wouldn't you want to compare it to the best-known brand in the market? And if yours were better, wouldn't you be telling everyone within earshot?

Dave, I think the title of Market Leader has passed to Yellow Tail. It's the power of the critter (on the label).

[dmwine]

Dave, I think the title of Market Leader has passed to Yellow Tail. It's the power of the critter (on the label).

Good point. You sell that BTG, right?

[treznor]

Bring it back to local wines a bit :-)

Went out to Breaux and Windham today as we were looking for something to do and it was a gorgous day (though that changed by the time we got out there). Windham was sued by Wyndham Estates and so is in the process of changing it's name to Doukenie (which is the name of one of it's more popular wines). Most of the Windham wines are in the $13-$18 range and fit pretty well there. We liked the Doukenie pretty well as it's made with Traminette and isn't something we see in Virginia all that often. Overall we liked most of the Windham wines fairly well with only a few that we didn't particularly care for. Not unexpected since we've been to both Breaux and Windham a couple times.

The Breaux wines we didn't think were as good as we remember them normally being, not certain if it was because we were there late in the day so the bottles may have had some times to sit out (though I don't think that's the case as they were fairly busy when we came in) or what. Their two sweeter wines (Chere Marie and Sweet Evangeline) are on the cheap end ($11-$13) and at that price point they aren't bad. We picked up a bottle of the Chere Marie (which is just slightly off-dry at 2% RS), a hunk of Manchego, some herbed salami, some bread, and sat around and enjoyed the scenery, even if it was raining a bit at that point (though the patio umbrellas solved that).

Both places had a 2005 Viognier that was decent, but not wonderful. A bit odd as a number of wineries in Virginia have very good 2005 Viogniers (Horton and Rappahanock come to mind). I do think though that Virginian wineries need to bite the bullet and start to grow the varieties that work best in our climate and terrain. Virginian Cabernet Sauvignon just isn't going to compete with the best Cab Savs around, even if the winemaker talent is present as the climate just doesn't seem to be there for it. Granted I know little about the vageries of growing wine, but it just seems like Viognier, Cabernet Franc, Norton, and a couple other varieties seem to grow so much better in Virginia than some of the other varieties. I understand why wineries feel they need to grow the old stand-bys (so people can have wine varieties they know), but at the same time it's good to see alot of VA wineries at least branching out into some of the other varieties that fit well in Virginia.

[jwhite]

What's so staggering? Face it, K-J Chard is the market leader, even if everyone here would turn up a nose at the very thought of drinking it. If you were making quality wine wouldn't you want to compare it to the best-known brand in the market? And if yours were better, wouldn't you be telling everyone within earshot?

dm,

It is because such a statement appears to be vastly misunderstanding your customer base. It is akin to Hans Hess who runs Elevation Burger bragging to his customers that his burgers and fries are better than McDonalds. The people who buy KJ are not the people traveling to your winery and seeking out local wines. Trying to market it as better than KJ will not be effective.

[dmwine]

It is because such a statement appears to be vastly misunderstanding your customer base. It is akin to Hans Hess who runs Elevation Burger bragging to his customers that his burgers and fries are better than McDonalds. The people who buy KJ are not the people traveling to your winery and seeking out local wines. Trying to market it as better than KJ will not be effective.

No, I think Horton is targeting the K-J crowd that thinks, "It's from California, so it must be good" - the type who buy a white wine for dinner tonight on the way home from work but give it little thought other than choosing a familiar label. If they can convince someone - even a retailer who may sell boatloads of K-J - that their Chard is better, they have a chance of winning customers over. You seem to believe "Well, of course Horton is better." People who haven't tried Horton are not going to agree ... until you give them a taste. Neil's comment re: K-J was aimed at convincing people to take that first taste.

[jwhite]

No, I think Horton is targeting the K-J crowd that thinks, "It's from California, so it must be good" - the type who buy a white wine for dinner tonight on the way home from work but give it little thought other than choosing a familiar label.

Targeting how? Specifically, how is he reaching them with his message?

If they can convince someone - even a retailer who may sell boatloads of K-J - that their Chard is better, they have a chance of winning customers over.

Wait, do you seriously believe that a retailer will be moved that a local winery is producing better quality than KJ and decide to push their wines, stocking less KJ in the process?

You seem to believe "Well, of course Horton is better." People who haven't tried Horton are not going to agree ... until you give them a taste. Neil's comment re: K-J was aimed at convincing people to take that first taste.

I believe that pretty much anything is better than KJ. However, I know that KJ is very cheap and very well known (marketed). I believe Horton is a horrid value relative to other wines that I generally drink. I will (and do) visit local wineries for the joy of the experience.

[Neil Glaser]

Wow

I was just using KJ as an example.... whatever Chardonnay that the restaurant is selling by the glass would work too. There are a few tiers at everyday local restaurants for Chardonnay by the glass. Whether you believe it or not, KJ resides at the second tier in many restaurants in Virginia... it is almost an automatic purchase for restaurants that have little wine experience. Yellowtail seems to be at the lowest tier, and I have a very difficult time competing with their pricing and replacing that product on the list. Just for chuckles, because it is so unlikely.... if Horton could replace all the KJ in just the Northern VA market, we would probably have to open another winery. One of the best ways for people to discover our wines is to try them by the glass at a reasonable price ($6/glass maybe) then hopefully they enjoy the wine and visit our facility. If the wine is just sitting on the list (not by the glass), it is usually the ones who know our wines and have already enjoyed them that buy that bottle off the list.

As an added point... if the same restaurant has great success with our Chardonnay, they are more likely to take a risk with our other wines, such as Viognier, Tannat, Petit Manseng, Cabernet Franc.... etc....

I guess that has been our approach...

Neil Glaser

Horton Vineyards

[dinwiddie]

There is also consumer resistance to unusual grapes. Wines from Petit Manseng or the tongue-twisting Rkatsiteli (think of it as Fluffy channeling Animal Planet) can be ripe, beautifully structured and thrilling (yes, I’m thinking of Horton and Dr. Konstantin Frank, respectively), but they are also unfamiliar to our palates, and many people just can’t get over their fear of the unknown.

We as consumers (and writers) need to open our minds to new grape varieties and new flavors, and stop mentally subtracting points from East Coast wines simply because they are not from California, Italy, France or anywhere else. They are what they are, and they are getting better all the time. Let’s applaud that. (Note to winemakers: You can help us change our outlook if, whenever you manage to ripen your Cabernet Franc, you stop comparing it to Cheval Blanc.)

I think that if Virginia wines ever make a mark in terms of quality it will be because of wines that are not the big three of Cab Sauv, Merlot, or Chard. One of the things that wineries in VA need to focus on is on grapes that are suited to the climate and the soil. Cab Franc and Viognier are probably much better choices than the more "classic" grapes. Not to say that there are not some fairly good Chards made in VA, but I doubt that they will ever be world class.