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3 hours ago, DaveO said:

How do you like this: Its Carmelo Anthony Piling-On Time:

Well, I guess you won't be going to his Hall of Fame induction.

Try as I might, I simply cannot get past this one statistic:

On 3/24/2016 at 0:09 PM, DonRocks said:

I think it's *really* dubious to ignore the fact that in the 8 years before Anthony, playoffs 0 times; in the 10 years after Anthony, playoffs all 10 times. That is huge, and there is *no way* his teammates were responsible for a 153% increase in wins his first year - that's two-and-a-half times as many victories: 17 vs. 43. That, too, is huge.

Once again:

In Anthony's 1st season, the Nuggets went from 17-65 (.209) to 43-39 (.524)

In the 8 years pre-Anthony, the Nuggets went to the playoffs 0 times.
In the 10 years after drafting Anthony, the Nuggets went to the playoffs 10 times
In the 4 years since then, the Nuggets have been to the playoffs 0 times.

There's more:

In the 6 years pre-Anthony, the Knicks went to the playoffs 0 times.
In the 3 years after acquiring Anthony, the Knicks went to the playoffs 3 times.

How many players in NBA history have taken their teams to the playoffs in their first 12 seasons?

Not Wilt Chamberlain
Not Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Not Oscar Robertson
Not Kobe Bryant
Not Lebron James
Not Tim Duncan 
Not Jerry West
Not John Havlicek
Not Shaquille O'Neal
Not Hakeem Olajuwon
Not Moses Malone
Not Charles Barkley
Not Dirk Nowitzki
Not Pete Maravich

Here are your answers: 

The flukes:

Robert Horry, who somehow made the playoffs in all 16 of his seasons, with career averages of 7.0 points, 4.8 rebounds, and 2.1 assists - there may well be others like Horry that I haven't found, but this is nothing more than "being in the right place at the right time with the right people." 

The dynamic duos:

Karl Malone and John Stockton, Larry Bird and Kevin McHale

The consummate team players:

Bill Russell (who had John Havlicek) and Magic Johnson (who had Kareem Abdul-Jabbar)

And then three of the biggest guns ever to walk the face of the Earth, two of whom led their teams in scoring in 11 out of those 12 seasons: 

Julius Erving (21.4 ppg) was outscored by Moses Malone (24.5 ppg) in the 1982-1983 season
Carmelo Anthony (25.7 ppg) was outscored by Allen Iverson (26.4 ppg) in the 2007-2008 season 

And the only player ever to make the playoffs *and* lead his team in scoring in all 12 of his first seasons: Michael Jordan, perhaps the greatest player of all time, but who also had Hall of Famer Scottie Pippen, as well as other substantial help such as Horace Grant, Toni Kukoc, and John Paxson.

Technically, George McGinnis (6 All-Star Games) and Doug Collins (4 All-Star Games) aren't in the Hall of Fame, but they were excellent players, and Julius Erving had their help for most of his NBA career - I'm also including his ABA career in this, which certainly doesn't hurt his cause.

That is some rarefied company, and from what I see, Carmelo Anthony, with the brief exception of Allen Iverson, is the only person ever to do it without Hall of Fame-level help - remove Iverson from the equation, and the average fan couldn't name any of Anthony's teammates - Marcus Camby was great in college; he was merely adequate as a pro (less than 10 points, less than 10 rebounds, less than 2 assists).

Look at what's happening to the Knicks this year with the maturation of Kristaps Porzingis and the addition of Derrick Rose: *Finally*, Anthony has some quality help, and the Knicks are 15-13. Look at the Knicks roster from last year - they had *nobody* with the exception of a rookie Porzingis who was very much in a developmental stage (keep your eyes on this guy, because he has "star" written all over him). And people are bitching that Anthony was shooting too much?! I think he should have taken every single shot.

Screenshot 2016-12-22 at 14.36.37.png

Carmelo Anthony is a first-ballot Hall of Famer.

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2 hours ago, DonRocks said:

Well, I guess you won't be going to his Hall of Fame induction.

Carmelo Anthony is a first-ballot Hall of Famer.

Yep.  I won't be at his hall of fame induction.  I do indeed like the basketball HOF, but on last count I've missed EVERY HOF induction.  I suppose I'll miss his.  :D

I really dislike his game.  JUST D.I.S.L.I.K.E it.  I'm not alone on that, but I certainly didn't rely on others to formulate that perspective.  Just watch him over a slew of games.  He gets the ball, holds it, slows down the game, etc etc.  Its ugly.  Over the long term it doesn't lead to being a great team, or one that will be a powerhouse.

Man, if I were "good enough" to play with that dude, and if I ran up and down the court a bunch of times and kept seeing the ball land in his hands and dying there as he does his little offensive "dance" or shoots, I'd get disgusted.  Experience.  It turns out lots of observers feel the same, and now one of his coaches just complained about it...as did his current GM.  Its no secret.   He likes to shoot.  According to his old coach he didn't try on defense.  Very frustrating over one season let alone 6.  I find its rare to hear teammates complain about another player, but when you've played like that it simply stinks.  If you win all the time, people suck it up.  If you don't the frustration sits in. 

I suspect he'll get in the HOF.  I hope its not first ballot. 

Don:  You did a lot of research.  Just to be a wee bit nitty picky, Duncan's Spurs went to the playoffs every one of his 19 years.  And won some championships to boot.  Also Anthony played for Denver 8 years.  So they made the playoffs for 10 years following Anthony's drafting...but they traded him....and the two subsequent years they got into the playoffs without anything close to a dominant scorer...in fact they had the opposite. 

Lastly, because of the news about Anthony/and Karl's book, plus the news about a dukie basketball player that just got suspended I went to my friend in Denver and asked his reactions.  On the Anthony point he simply said "Anthony makes the game boring". 


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1 hour ago, DaveO said:

Don:  You did a lot of research.  Just to be a wee bit nitty picky, Duncan's Spurs went to the playoffs every one of his 19 years. 

You're right. My original list (and my post took over an hour to write) was of the players who went their first 12 years, either without making the playoffs all 12 years, or who didn't lead their team in scoring all 12 years - and it was shaping up to be one hell of a list of players (every player in history except Jordan), which included Duncan (because he didn't lead his team in scoring all 12 years). This was all done while thinking that Anthony did both.

But then, right as I was finishing, I discovered the one year that Iverson outscored Anthony, so the entire premise became invalid. You didn't nitpick; you found the remnants of a mistaken assumption that wasn't completely undone.

In my research, I was shocked to find that Erving made the playoffs every year, and led his team in scoring 11 out of 12 years. I was even shocked at Jordan having done both. And I was shocked at just how many points Olajuwon scored: That last item forced me to go back and adjust this post to reflect a previously undiscovered fact.

Related: The reason I'm so cock-sure about Anthony being in the Hall of Fame is that I'm equally sure that Mike Mussina will be in the Hall of Fame. Why? Because in the history of MLB, every single pitcher with 100 more wins than losses is in, without exception.

And if you haven't been to the Basketball Hall of Fame, you should go - they have a big room with a bunch of regulation baskets where you can shoot all you want (for free), from about 20-feet out, and the balls roll back down towards you in a net. You can go in, and take 1,000 shots if you want to, and there are enough balls that you don't have to wait between shots - it's fun as hell. I went shortly after Wilt Chamberlain died, and they had placed a black ribbon on his plaque.

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As to players of quality with whom Anthony teamed one was Chauncey Billups.  I'm sure Billups will get into the HOF.

The only time Anthony got to a division championship was coincidentally w/ Billups.  Billups got to 6 or 7 division championships, 2 NBA championships, won 1 and lost one in 7 games.  Hard to think of 2 guys with such different skill sets.  Billups made teammates better including Anthony.  

I believe  at the beginning of this thread you referenced how Anthony should have been drafted by the Pistons.  He would have been much better as a player if he had been drafted by Detroit.  They would have kicked the shit out of him if his attitude didn't evolve from shooting to winning

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If Anthony can get traded to the Cavaliers straight-up for Kevin Love, he should take the offer, and so should the Cavs. That is the *only* path to another potential championship in Cleveland, and probably the only path for a first-and-only potential championship for Carmelo Anthony.

Kyrie Irving vs. Stephen Curry

LeBron James vs. Kevin Durant

Carmelo Anthony vs. Klay Thompson

The Warriors will still have greater depth, but this would make for one hell of an interesting series.

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As someone who greatly respects Melo's talent but thinks that he's a detriment to the Knicks, I'd love to see him play with LeBron & watch them take on the Warriors.  Frankly, it may be a couple of years too late for his offense to be effective even with LeBron & his lack of defense may well be a bigger problem.  And, does anyone think that JR Smith, who had a pretty good run in Cleveland, misses Melo?  I don't.

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Bye bye Melo.  I dont think that the Knicks got enough in return but he had to go.  Best wishes in Oklahoma (seriously).  He just wasn't right for the Knicks.

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21 hours ago, Steve R. said:

Bye bye Melo.  I dont think that the Knicks got enough in return but he had to go.  Best wishes in Oklahoma (seriously).  He just wasn't right for the Knicks.

My first thought when I heard he'd be playing with Westbrook was: 'Is Anthony willing to give up his 20 ppg average (now 14-years running). and be the second-best offensive player on his team?' He might not dip under 20 the first year, but it's eventually going to become a reality unless he retires - I'm glad this happened for no other reason than that this will put any questions about his character to rest, one way or the other, and I don't know which way it's going to go.

This article says it all:

"Trade Grades: Carmelo Anthony Deal Yet Another Steal for Thunder" by Rohan Nadkarni on si.com

If Anthony is willing to accept that he's aging, and that he's going to be their #2, possibly #3 scorer, and that his role will be to relieve Russell Westbrook and Paul George with some catch-and-shoots (another issue: Will they dish to him?), then this trade could really help Oklahoma City; if he's really so selfish that he needs to get his points with Westbrook and George next to him, then this trade could blow up in their faces. Even though Anthony has played for 14 years, I honestly don't know which way this will resolve itself.

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21 hours ago, Steve R. said:

Bye bye Melo.  I dont think that the Knicks got enough in return but he had to go.  Best wishes in Oklahoma (seriously).  He just wasn't right for the Knicks.

Good for you, @Steve R. good for many Knicks fans. 

I hate his game.  I consider it a mixture of unwatchable at its worst, painful to watch when not at its worst, ugly to the flow of the game, and not ultimately conducive to winning.  Over his long career the Denver and Knicks teams he played for probably averaged in the low to mid 40's wins/season.  Good enough to get to the playoffs but mostly being a low seed.  That is a little better than a 500 record.  The playoffs involve 8 of 15 teams per conference these days.  Its not an extraordinary bar.  A bar; yes.  But a not brutal bar to pass.

He has been a great scorer but he is well recognized as an offensive ball hog.  On the rebounding, defensive and passing side of things he is mediocre at best and is often guilty of visibly not putting out effort in those areas.  His game is one dimensional and the dimension in which he has always starred is a tough mixture of stardom/talent and selfishness. 

He has been a lightening rod of controversy mixed with some notable and responsible acts. 

You can't dispute his scoring stats.  OTOH the advanced stats geeks provide data that his entire game is less than the best and less than super stardom.

From the data driven geeks encyclopedia of minute detail:  His overall Similarity Scores, which is a record of Win Share puts him in company with a group of notable players who would mostly comprise a "Hall of Very Good", not a Hall of Fame.  The exception in that group is Alex English, also a notable scorer, but I suppose played a one dimensional game.  (yes I used to watch him, but no I don't recall much about his game). English is in the HOF.

Another esoteric advanced  geek stat is career Box/Plus Minus.  An effort to analyze how many extra points over the opposition a player is worth during his time on the court.  Anthony is ranked 186 in the NBA.  Not star value.  An additional Geek Stat is Career VORP (value over a replacement player).  Anthony ranks 106.  Not blow you out of the box high.

But he has been a great scorer.  Two of his former coaches had serious problems with him and publicly voiced it.  One of those two, Mike D'Antoni also either wanted or agreed to want him for the current Houston Rockets.  (can anyone really know his value, or that of most players???--its always guess work  How will the whole team mesh?  How the heck do 3 scorers mesh??)

Whether he plays for the Knicks or plays for Oklahoma he is not a guy I enjoy watching and mostly won't, but for you Knicks fans,  bravo.  You'll get to live and die with other ball players.

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