Lie vs. Lay, when Used as a Reflexive Verb

[DonRocks]

I'm having a violent argument right now over the usage of lie vs. lay, as applied to one's own self.

I always thought that you lay down, and then you lie there (everything in the present tense).

My friend insists (and has internet examples from Grammar Girl to back it up) that if you're talking about something other than yourself, and you mean "to set something down," you use lay, but if you're talking about the act of reclining, you use lie. 

I always thought that there was an implied "myself" that was omitted, i.e., I'm going to go upstairs and lay (myself) down, and that *anytime* you mean "to recline" or "to set something or someone down," you use lay, even if you're talking about yourself.

My friend says that when it comes to the action verb of heading towards the ground, "lie" means "to recline," and "lay" means "to place."

It isn't logical for "to lie" to be used both for motion, and for stationary situations, i.e., "The cat is lying down, and the dog is lying there."

We're nearly coming to blows over this - someone please help.

I need to get layed (down on a sofa, and then lie there).

PS - Telling me that "to lay" is always transitive, and "to lie" is always intransitive might convince me, but I honestly didn't know that.

[porcupine]

"Lay is transitive; it requires that the verb have an object; there has to be a thing or person being placed: Lay it down. Lie, on the other hand, is intransitive. It's for something or someone moving on their own or something that's already in position..."  --Merriam-Webster

"...the distinction is simple: Lay needs an object—something being laid—while lie cannot have an object."  --grammarist.com

"lay = put someone or something down

This is a transitive verb, meaning that it’s followed by a direct object (the person or thing affected by the verb).

lie (1) = be in a horizontal position on a surface.

This is an intransitive verb, so it’s not used with an object"  --oxforddictionaries.com

"The verb lay means ‘to put something down carefully in a flat position’. It must have an object... Lie is a verb which means ‘to be in or put yourself into a flat position’"  --- cambridge dictionary

[dcs]

Are you saying that the grammatically correct lyric should actually be Lie Lady Lie?

[DonRocks]

But what's the difference - the logical difference - between "Now I lay me down to sleep" and "I'm going to go up and lay down." 

Is there not an implied [myself] in the latter? I think we use implied words all the time in English.

You can't say, "The former is correct, and the latter is wrong," because the object is supposed to be "myself" if the verb is reflexive.

4 hours ago, dcs said:

Are you saying that the grammatically correct lyric should actually be Lie Lady Lie?

And here I thought I could marginalize our Nobel Laureate by confining him to a single thread. 

According to the answer, not only should it be, "Lie Lady Lie," but it should be, "Lie, Lady, Lie." But I'm of the firm belief that (at least for me) you should write how you speak, so I don't care about commas - if there would be a pause in my speech, a comma goes in (I'm also of the firm belief that it's fine to start a sentence with "But").

I want to know what the rules are so that when I break them, I at least know I'm breaking them.

As for Dylan, he's clearly making an alliteration on the sound "lay" with "Lay Lady Lay" - all poetry gets a hall pass.