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Group Wine Buys and Sharing Allocations


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For those of you interested in the Hartenberg Shiraz, please PM me.  Joe Riley has let me know that he will be able to make a very nice discount from the regular retail of $30-$32, depending on the total quantity ordered.

You already know I want some...Since we're not ordering cases, I'm in for 3 bottles.

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For French Wines, The French Wine Society I am managing, could think about gathering orders for interested people.

Should we base this on what retailers propose, and then people order what they are interested in, or should we start with what the group wants and then see which retailer can supply the wine and at what price ?

Lets brainstorm ...

Julien

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For French Wines, The French Wine Society I am managing, could think about gathering orders for interested people.

Should we base this on what retailers propose, and then people order what they are interested in, or should we start with what the group wants and then see which retailer can supply the wine and at what price ?

Lets brainstorm ...

Julien

How about regions? I could go for some Loire Valley wines.
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How about regions?  I could go for some Loire Valley wines.

Maybe the best way is for people to specify what regions, or vintages and regions they are interested in and then see what the retailers have available.

I would possibly be interested in Loire Valley wines.

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Maybe the best way is for people to specify what regions, or vintages and regions they are interested in and then see what the retailers have available. 

I would possibly be interested in Loire Valley wines.

Might be nice to see if you could get some of the Vouvrays from S.A. Huët or some of the wines from Henri Bourgeoisif you like whites. They shouldn't be too hard to find and are usually quite good and a good value for what they cost. Catherine & Pierre Bréton are a good bet for reds at a reasonable price.

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The Wall Street Journal article notes that:

"On the whole our experience has been positive.  We've ordered hundreds of cases without incidents (we order as regular customers without identifying ourselves as wine writers.")

Hooray for them.

I strongly disagree with you:  it is not a tradeoff as you suggest.

We'll agreee to disagree. Tradeoffs are everything in life.

Much of your argument is irrelevant since how is wine shipped to YOU?  What is the difference between sitting in a truck on a highway in July coming from New Jersey to a D. C. store or to a Virginia address?  There is just as great of a chance of it spoiling for one as it is for another.  I also note that wine that I buy at a winery in Italy and carry home actually tastes a bit better than a similar bottle purchased from a store here.  It probably spent several weeks on a boat coming here along with countless hours/days on a dock waiting to be unloaded.  Some of these internet sites wait until they fill up a complete palette and then order directly from overseas.

One major difference here is, my distributors have the opportunity to reject wines that are damaged at the wholesale level. Importers, too. I've worked for two importers who have had to do precisely these things. This is where insurance comes into play.

From California, I'd say that most of what we get arrives to our wholesalers by train (3 days from the west coast) with the rest by 18-wheeler. Just in case you are curious. From overseas, fewer and fewer importers are using non-climate-controlled shipping containers, which is to all of our benefits, the retail stores and the Internet stores (who, in the United States, must also rely upon overseas containers to get those wines here, remember).

I've never returned a bottle to a store for any reason.  But I must note that for years I've driven from Reston to C/W or MacArthur or other stores to buy.  If I had to return a bottle to an online store it would take me less time that driving from Reston to D. C. and back.

Save your receipts and just return on your next purchase trip. You'll find that most retailers can be very accomodating that way.

Frankly, you and others are fighting for your lives right now because of the internet.  More and more wineries will also because it will become absolutely essential that this kind of "Wal Marting" of wine distribution can put a lot of them out of business.  Unfortunately it is going to happen, too.  And, no, this is NOT good.  Just as big box stores have killed so many "mom and pop's" and national chains have run local operators in many industries out of business, so will this happen with wine.

We're hardly "fighting for our lives". For the record, we had our best year EVER in 2005. There will always be customers for retail stores like ours. Do you realize how many purchases are spur-of-the-moment or Friday afternoon or Saturday purchases? If you suddenly decide that you need something for tonight or tomorrow, we're here to serve you.

But again, I note, that you can take advantage of this and start you own online following.  It is just as easy for you to start an online operation shipping out of D. C. as it is for shipping out of Springfield, NJ or Redwood City, CA.  I think I would take your same knowledge and expertise and go after the internet.  There's a lot of room for someone like yourself.  But in a year or two there may no longer be.

e-commerce is a huge undertaking. You can't just "dabble" in it, it requires a great deal of computer infrastructure. If you look at the websites of stores such as K&L in California (just to use an example, since you mentioned Redwood City, Calif) those websites cost an unGodly amount of money up front, and then you have to have an entire shipping department just to handle that. We only have but so much suare footage here and we cannot just "move" (by D.C. law, you cannot move a liquor license). There is also the distinct possibility that the federal government or the states will find a way to reign in Internet alcohol commerce and then the people whose livelihoods depend upon that aspect will be the ones in trouble. For brick-and-mortar businesses like ours, there will still be enough business to go around.

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I purchase wine three ways, from the allocation lists I belong to (by far my major way of purchasing wine), from retailers (not as much but it gives me the chance to do some spur of the moment shopping) and over the internet (only when there is something specific that I want and can't get it otherwise).

However, I have found that a sort of combination of the last two works well too. There are several brick and morter stores that I trust but do not visit in person very often (K&L, Stirling in NJ, Andy Bassin's, Ace, Schnieders, Ceciles). However, there are folks there (and Joe Riley falls into this categroy) that I trust and with whom I communicate by e-mail or PM. I order from them and they deliver it to where I want. This way I have the convenience of the internet and the security of knowing that there is a location I can take the wine back to if it is corked or otherwise unacceptable.

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It is winery mailer season and as I'm going thru my allocations I wonder if we should let other folks piggyback on our allocations. I certainly am not going to buy all of my allocations, I can't drink that much wine and besides, it would cost me a fortune. But I have no problem with sharing an allocation with someone else who is not on the winery's list.

I've maxed my Kosta-Browne allocation, and I already sent in my Radio-Coteau order, but have not yet sent in my Loring order. And there will be others coming. Should we have a thread where those who have allocations and those who would like to share in some of the allocations can get together?

BTW, since I couldn't get the IM to work to jpscrust, allocations can be quite small. They are not ususally as much as a case. When you consider that these wines cost about $45+ a bottle, plus shipping, I'm not likely to buy a case. My Kosta Browne allocation was for four different bottlings and it was 6/6/3/3 in terms of the number of bottles I could buy.

The Lorings are $44 each and shipping is included. The allocations are for the Clos Pepe, the Cargasacchi, Rancho Ontiveros, and Russell Family Vineyards. Again, I'm allocated 6/6/3/3

I expect I will be receiving mailers from Siduri, WesMar, Dain, and a couple of others. I passed on my Martinelli offerings, but could still order from it. However, it is a captive list meaning I have to order a set number of all the wines.

What I am suggesting is that if anyone has allocations that they are not going to use/fill, we could post here if anyone is interested in sharing the allocation. Most of these wines are sold by allocation only and are almost impossible to find in stores, especially here on the east coast.

I could offer my allocations on the wine boards I frequent, but since the people here are local, it is easier to set up the logistics if someone here wants to share the allocation.

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You know, some of those wines are available in the D.C. market for retail. It's always worth a phone call to check, though there are never any guarantees.

A lawyer friend of mine gave me a bottle of a California Cabernet Sauvignon that he got straight from a winery, and I felt bad because he never once asked me if it was available for retail sale. It was. In fact, it was a winery that I was very familiar with, having once sold it when I was in wholesale. He probably paid more than he would have if he'd bought it from me.

The only times that it really makes sense to buy winery-direct is if the releases in question are ONLY available from the winery, such as extremely-limited bottlings (i.e. one barrel produced) or library wines. Of course, if you don't live in a major wine market, then it does make sense to approach wineries directly - after all, they make more money on direct sales and they don't have to wait for their money as they would with wholesalers (typically 90 days from sale). Wineries which become successful rarely abandon their loyal customers, though I've heard that some wineries are stretched so thin that even their best customers are allocated much less wine than they were used to getting. A good example of this is Rafanelli. Go to their winery, and they can sell you only a few bottles of Cabernet or Zin. Used to be, you could buy over a case of each, if you wanted to. Nice problem to have :unsure:

Some wineries may sell 80-90% to restaurants ("on-premise") and have tiny retail allocations, which may be determined by a winery itself (Araujo does this) or by the local distributor.

Years ago, I once asked the local Paterno representative if there was any Rochioli wine for me to buy. Their reply was, "Sure - how many hundred cases of Corvo would you like to buy each month?" In other words, all Rochioli wine was allocated based upon how much inexpensive Corvo* white and red from Italy (*note - no longer imported by Paterno) I was willing to buy each month. Forget the fact that this is an illegal practice, it is an almost completely unenforceable law, and it speaks to real world supply-and-demand economics. It may not be "right", but I think that it is fair.

I think that some folks ought to take advantage of working with dinwiddie and working out trades with others :lol:

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Joe, I just got the mailer from Match but am a little reluctant to spend that much, regardless of how great the wine is. Is the Butterdragon Hill available at all arournd here for the $80 or so it would cost me to get it from the winery? I've never seen Lorings, Radio-Coteau, or Karl Lawrence for sale in shops in DC and the only time I saw a Kosta Browne it was at 4X what it released for from the winery. I couldn't even max out my WesMar allocation if I wanted to but again, I've not seen it in any shop.

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Joe, I just got the mailer from Match but am a little reluctant to spend that much, regardless of how great the wine is. Is the Butterdragon Hill available at all arournd here for the $80 or so it would cost me to get it from the winery? I've never seen Lorings, Radio-Coteau, or Karl Lawrence for sale in shops in DC and the only time I saw a Kosta Browne it was at 4X what it released for from the winery. I couldn't even max out my WesMar allocation if I wanted to but again, I've not seen it in any shop.
I agree completely re: markup on KB when you see it at retail in DC - although it is on the list at Sonoma and Charlie Palmer Steak for a resonable amount. WesMar is available at Schneider's, FYI.

I have the following allocations that I am able to share, if there is interest send me a PM:

Kosta Browne

Radio Coteau

Copain

Kutch

Loring

Carlisle

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Schneider's does tend to have things that others don't. But that is where I saw the KB and the only time I saw a Karl Lawrence it was 2X what I paid for it from the winery, even factoring in the shipping. I'm really trying to cut back on my buying from the lists, I'll probably only keep buying regularly from KB, RC, Loring, Dain and Karl Lawrence. I may keep a few bottles from WesMar and AP Vin, but I've dropped Siduri, ROAR, anc Martinelli as well as a few others.

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I agree completely re: markup on KB when you see it at retail in DC - although it is on the list at Sonoma and Charlie Palmer Steak for a resonable amount. WesMar is available at Schneider's, FYI.

I have the following allocations that I am able to share, if there is interest send me a PM:

Kosta Browne

Radio Coteau

Copain

Kutch

Loring

Carlisle

According to their website, Citronelle has Kosta Browne, too. The 12 bottles I was able to get last year evaporated in 2 weeks flat.

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In theory, the Kosta Browne wines are available to me. We've had the Sauvignon Blanc before, and the Sonoma Pinot Noir, but nothing at the moment.

I was given a sample of one of Kosta Browne's single-vineyard Pinots last fall (NOT from the distributor) and I tried it. It was okay, but nothing to get worked up over. I'm told that it was highly allocated and very pricey. I remember thinking that it wasn't worth the price tag, but who knows? Maybe I had an "off" bottle, or maybe it just wasn't my style.

Siduri is represented by a D.C. wholesaler. It's bounced around quite a bit over the years from one supplier to another, but theoretically I can get some.

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It is winery mailer season and as I'm going thru my allocations I wonder if we should let other folks piggyback on our allocations. I certainly am not going to buy all of my allocations, I can't drink that much wine and besides, it would cost me a fortune. But I have no problem with sharing an allocation with someone else who is not on the winery's list. I could offer my allocations on the wine boards I frequent, but since the people here are local, it is easier to set up the logistics if someone here wants to share the allocation.

The major problem I have with allocations and future is that they are based upon hype to some extent and a self fulfilling prophecy that builds up price because of scarcity.

For the most part I find buying wine from an established and experienced wine merchant such as Doug Rosen at Arrowwine(and Joe Riley) who actually taste the wines they sell and choose what they carry based upon how well that specific wine expresses itself. I know Doug probably tastes over 100 wines each week and makes several trips abroad each year to meet both existing and new producers whose wines he will sell. So that when I get an an offer of a wine be it a CDNP at 20/bottle that is highly touted, I know it is both a great wine and a good value.

I just don't think a mailer from a winery basically saying you bought last year, so why don't you buy again, provides the same story.

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The major problem I have with allocations and future is that they are based upon hype to some extent and a self fulfilling prophecy that builds up price because of scarcity.

For the most part I find buying wine from an established and experienced wine merchant such as Doug Rosen at Arrowwine(and Joe Riley) who actually taste the wines they sell and choose what they carry based upon how well that specific wine expresses itself. I know Doug probably tastes over 100 wines each week and makes several trips abroad each year to meet both existing and new producers whose wines he will sell. So that when I get an an offer of a wine be it a CDNP at 20/bottle that is highly touted, I know it is both a great wine and a good value.

I just don't think a mailer from a winery basically saying you bought last year, so why don't you buy again, provides the same story.

I don't disagree that buying from an established and experienced wine merchant is the best way to go. However, I will disagree with you to some degree about mailers and allocations. Mailers and allocation lists are often two different things. Wineries that produce limited amounts of wines often cannot (and it does not sense economically) go thru a distributor because the distributors are not interested in such small quantities. In addition, some wineries make certain wines in very small amounts while making others in larger amounts. The demand for these wines can be very high and it becomes almost impossible to get them thru a retailer. I know that Joe was not that impressed with the Kosta Brownes he tasted, however, I love them. While in theory Joe could get some, in fact, the average person cannot get them because the allocation list is wait listed. I was able to buy 18 bottles of the wine, I doubt I could find 18 bottles in DC at a retailer, and I certainly couldn''t afford what they would cost based on the prices I saw for the two bottles I did see in Schnieder's a couple of years ago. Other wines like SNQ have the same situation. The wainting list for their top wines is years long. Sure you might be able to get the Sonoma Coast PN, but there is no way the 4 Barrel will be for sale (I'm not even to that level on the list yet.) If you are a collector of wines then it makes sense to try to get on the lists for the wines you are intersted in obtaining. I collect small production PNs. Do I ever buy anything else, of course I do. If I didn't my wife wouldn't consider Joe my wine pimp. :lol:

Sure these wines get hyped, and their scarcity makes them more costly. Case in point, the Kosta Brownes entire lineup last year got WS scores of over 90 pts, with several getting 95 pts. The demand went thru the roof. Should they start producing more and more wine and thus delute the quality and value, or should they continue to sell it at allocation to the customers who took a chance with them when they first started out? The winery certainly makes more money by selling the wines at full value to those who want them instead of discounting them to go thru a distributor, and the loyal customer gets to buy the wine at a price that is reasonable (if he considers the price unreasonable he doesn't have to buy) instead of the hyper inflated prices that are sometimes seen in retail stores.

While KB may be an extreme example, try finding the top offerings from Lorings, Dain, Rhys, ROAR, Richoli. Williams Selyem, etc. in a retail shop. While there may be a few available, if you are on the list you can get them easily.

All I was doing with my first post was offering to allow others to share in my allocations if they wanted to and to see if there was any interest in having a thread to share allocations. If you aren't interested in doing so, fine with me, but I will not apoligize for liking and collecting small production wines in addition to enjoying finding that special QPR. If that makes me a wine snob, so what. I still get to drink and share with my friends that bottle of 25 case production PN that is not available anywhere else along with the bottle of $20 CNdP that was such a find.

BTW, I think I will pass on my ROAR allocation if anyone is interested in it. (3 Rosella's Vnyd at $50 and 6 Santa Lucia Highlands at $38, shipping $3 a bottle.)

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In theory, the Kosta Browne wines are available to me. We've had the Sauvignon Blanc before, and the Sonoma Pinot Noir, but nothing at the moment.

I was given a sample of one of Kosta Browne's single-vineyard Pinots last fall (NOT from the distributor) and I tried it. It was okay, but nothing to get worked up over. I'm told that it was highly allocated and very pricey. I remember thinking that it wasn't worth the price tag, but who knows? Maybe I had an "off" bottle, or maybe it just wasn't my style.

Siduri is represented by a D.C. wholesaler. It's bounced around quite a bit over the years from one supplier to another, but theoretically I can get some.

At around $40 a bottle, mailing list, I don't think that these KB's are too pricey. Either way, I'm happy with the 18 or so I am allocated. I realize that the wine may not be to everyone's style, and it is a departure from the Burgundies I also enjoy. However, KB makes a great bottle of wine, at a reasonable price. I won't stop buying wines locally and switch to all mailing list purchases - I enjoy working with wine shops to find new things I might enjoy. I think mailers serve their purpose - to distribute small production wines amongst those who most enjoy them, not as a replacement for retail shops.
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At around $40 a bottle, mailing list, I don't think that these KB's are too pricey. Either way, I'm happy with the 18 or so I am allocated. I realize that the wine may not be to everyone's style, and it is a departure from the Burgundies I also enjoy. However, KB makes a great bottle of wine, at a reasonable price. I won't stop buying wines locally and switch to all mailing list purchases - I enjoy working with wine shops to find new things I might enjoy. I think mailers serve their purpose - to distribute small production wines amongst those who most enjoy them, not as a replacement for retail shops.

He said it better than I did in my long winded response right above his. :lol:

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The WesMar mailer hit.

PN Sonoma Coast Hellenthal Vnyd PN $50

PN RRV Vinters Reserve $45

PN Sonoma Coast Balletto Vnyd $40

PN RRV Oehlman Vnyd $37

PN RRV Olivet Lane Vnyd $37

RRV Zin $27

Mags at twice the cost of the 750s, but not avail for the Zin.

Shipping to here on the east coast, $6.50 a bottle 2 day air, at least 12 bottles.

I'll buy some, but not the full allocation of 12/12/12/12/12/6 :o

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I've partaken of other folks I know wine list allocations and shared my own. I've bought my own, regretted, by need or mood, and sold off. Whatever you have to do or what whim may you fancy. Go with your gut.

I remember selling off all but one of my Kosta Browne Pinot Noirs in 20009/2010 - not my thing despite the hype.

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