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Stephen Curry vs. LeBron James - Head-to-Head Matchups


DonRocks

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12/25/15

I watched the game at Virtue Feed & Grain on Christmas, and I had a very unique perspective on the Cavs-Warriors game: I watched it on silent TV at the bar, but I studiously went against the grain by *not* watching the ball, which nearly everybody always does, including me; instead, each time the Cavs had the ball, I would watch #23, James, and each time the Warriors had the ball, I would watch #30, Curry - even if they were off the ball, I watched them both, exclusively, for the entire game, and what I saw was something of a revelation. (Note that, because of the way I watched this game, I was only able to see what they were doing on offense - it's possible, for example, that James was working hard on defense, and that's why he looked so tired.)

LeBron James is out of shape, plain and simple - either that, or he's just getting older. On offense, when he didn't have the ball, he was just standing around - not *at* the 3-point line, but a few feet in *back* of the 3-point line. He wasn't running around, trying to get free - he *was* free, but he was standing so far back, that nobody cared. He scored a very quiet 4 points in the 1st quarter - a few times, when they passed him the ball, he'd drive towards the hoop, but he only made two field goals in the first quarter, and he didn't even start the second quarter - how could he have been tired after not having done anything? James was saving his energy until the later part of the game, but it was too little, too late - he was simply unable to carry the team in this game, and I was not impressed at all by his conditioning. He led the game with 25 points, but it was an ugly 25 points on 10-26 shooting.

Stephen Curry arguably had a better game, but not by much: He scored 19 points on 6-15 shooting. However, there's one thing I saw that viewers watching the ball wouldn't have noticed: Off the ball, Curry was getting the *shit* beaten out of him by Matthew Dellavedova. This happened from the very beginning of the game, and the physical punishment was equivalent to body-blows from a boxer - they take their toll on you later in the match. Anyone who thinks the NBA is no longer physical only needed to watch what was happening to Curry. He was being held, pushed, and just plain brutalized - he had a poor game, but the refs were consistently missing off-the-ball fouls against him - this was a deliberate and clever strategy by the Cavaliers to wear down Curry, and it worked.

I'd rate this one as a push, with both players underperforming.

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12/25/15

Stephen Curry arguably had a better game, but not by much: He scored 19 points on 6-15 shooting. However, there's one thing I saw that viewers watching the ball wouldn't have noticed: Off the ball, Curry was getting the *shit* beaten out of him by Matthew Dellavedova. This happened from the very beginning of the game, and the physical punishment was equivalent to body-blows from a boxer - they take their toll on you later in the match. Anyone who thinks the NBA is no longer physical only needed to watch what was happening to Curry. He was being held, pushed, and just plain brutalized - he had a poor game, but the refs were consistently missing off-the-ball fouls against him - this was a deliberate and clever strategy by the Cavaliers to wear down Curry, and it worked.

"Cavs' Matthew Dellavedova Voted Dirtiest Player in Coaches/Players Poll" on si.com

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01/18/16

"Warriors Deliver Champagne-Soaked Memo to Cavs in Humiliating Blowout" by Matt Moore on cbssports.com

"Golden Statement: Curry, Warriors Demolish Cavaliers, 132-98" by Tom Withers on nba.com

Curry scores 35 points on 12-18 shooting in 33 minutes played. 7-12 from the 3-point line, 4-4 in free throws. 5 rebounds, 4 assists, 3 steals, 0 blocks, and 3 personal fouls.

James scores 16 points on 7-16 shooting in 28 minutes played. 0-3 from the 3-point line, 2-2 in free throws. 5 rebounds, 5 assists, 1 steal, 1 block, and 1 personal foul.

If the first matchup was a push, this one goes strongly to Curry, as the Warriors dominated the Cavaliers, 132-98.

Expect James to assert himself the next time these two teams tussle. It may not work, but he'll come out fists a-flying, because right now he's got something to prove - if not to anyone else, then at least to himself. He's going to have one heck of a rough time sleeping tonight. James's natural style is something like Magic Johnson; I expect to see something more like Michael Jordan in the next game - that is, unless he's just not in shape for it (*). He's a big man, and he needs to lose 10-20 pounds in my opinion, because I see him slowing down, and fear is creeping into his game.

There once was a Curry sandwich on Cavalier bread, and then the filling stepped aside (letting the bread fall to the ground), ran out, and drained a three:

"Stephen Curry Drops LeBron James, Then Drains 3-Pointer" by Katie Richcreek on bleacherreport.com <--- What are the odds of James having thought that, less than two seconds after he had Curry in a panini press, he'd be on the ground, watching a 3-pointer dropping through the net?

That play defines Curry, and is going to replayed over, and over, and over in James's mind - there comes a point when money doesn't matter, and I think we're at that point.

How sweet that must have been for Curry after this display by James:

"LeBron James Sets Screen, Shoves Stephen Curry to the Floor" by Katie Richcreek on bleacherreport.com

(*) The next game, btw, will either be in the NBA Finals, or in the 2016-2017 season, as this was the second and final regular-season matchup between the two teams this year.

And where on earth is Kevin Love? This could be a coaching problem.

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Just to give some counter point and different perspectives:

1.  Lebron James doesn't look overweight to me, he looks similar to the way he's looked for the majority of the last dozen years.  He is naturally thicker than virtually all basketball players; a linebacker sort of build in a universe of split ends and defensive backs.  From the outset his advantages included that amazingly strong physique combined with exceptional unmatched quickness for a fellow of that size with incredible basketball skills and smarts.  He has been an anomaly.  Nobody built like him before or since.  Other guys have been tremendously strong, but they lifted and lifted.  He supposedly doesn't lift (for strength).  He is a naturally muscularly broad and strong individual.

But last season he started off the year after a publicized summer long diet.  Most commentators thought he looked relatively scrawny at the start of last season.  He bulked up later in the season.  Possibly, Don, you are comparing his look to that of early last season.  He was also thinner in his very first years, possibly at ages 18-21 or so.   He simply looks the same to me from an observational perspective, no different than during the majority of the last 12 years, but noticeably thicker than everyone else on the court.  Its his build.

Also Lebron mostly plays outside, as you saw him.  He is positioned to make passes to cutting and moving teammates and to drive or shoot long jumpers.  Alternatively he is not the guy(s) that run endlessly, set picks, etc.  He is more often the guy that feeds them, or drives from the outside, draws defenders and then feeds open teammates.  That utilizes his basketball IQ and eyes.   He can and does play inside...but Cleveland stocks up with big guys to do that work.  He is more of an outside player, even with his strength and bulk.  Always has been.  Just to add my $0.02, I think he's been the best player in the NBA for the better part of the last 8-9 years.  When he is on a team they go to the playoffs and have a chance to win it all, regardless of teammates.  When he is gone from that team they are infinitely worse.

Golden State crushed the Cavs in the latest game.  I watched a part  but the advantage was so big I turned my attention elsewhere.  By the 4th qtr it appears neither Curry or Lebron played.  It was a romp.  It happens.

From the Cavs' perspective what will be telling is if the point guard Kyrie Irving regains all his skills since returning from injury.  When healthy he is one of the leagues best offensive players.  He has astonishing ball control skills and can score and is becoming a better feeder.  Its a different skill set, wherein he is a little unique:  Here is a set of highlights for both Curry and Irving wherein their ball control/body control skills stand out:  (btw:  Irving didn't look good against Golden State).

And where on earth is Kevin Love? This could be a coaching problem.

Where is Kevin Love?    That is a good question.    Could it be that the Warriors defense negates him????   If the two teams meet in the finals we'll have a chance to find out.

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He is a naturally muscularly broad and strong individual.

But last season he started off the year after a publicized summer long diet.  Most commentators thought he looked relatively scrawny at the start of last season.  He bulked up later in the season.  Possibly, Don, you are comparing his look to that of early last season.  He was also thinner in his very first years, possibly at ages 18-21 or so.   He simply looks the same to me from an observational perspective, no different than during the majority of the last 12 years, but noticeably thicker than everyone else on the court.  Its his build.

One difference between us is that I'm much more skeptical about "nutritional supplements." I do not think for one second that this is LeBron James' natural build, especially if he claims he doesn't lift (you don't get deltoids like that without intense lifting, period - not unless you take shortcuts). Not even Mr. Universe had shoulders like that 50 years ago.

His NBA record speaks for itself, and he's a historically great player; but I think he will not play into his late- or perhaps not even mid-30s, unless he'll be content averaging 20 ppg, and he's on the downswing right now. His Minutes Played stats have been trending down for a full decade, and he will never again play 40 minutes per game. These declining stats don't lie, and I suspect they're a constant with just about every player who ever played - he's tired, and looks it. The NBA is also beginning testing for HGH beginning with the 2016-2017 season, so he's most likely coming off it.

Lebron is naturally lithe and muscular, not unlike Jordan: highschool_2.jpg The NBA bulked him up *some* for his rookie year:    5e54117f354d80ce1ddab62edcbbb851.341x400

But not like this: nba_g_kingjames_576.jpg <--- This is not his natural physique. Look at his head.

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One difference between us is that I'm much more skeptical about "nutritional supplements." I do not think for one second that this is LeBron James' natural build, especially if he claims he doesn't lift (you don't get deltoids like that without intense lifting, period - not unless you take shortcuts). Not even Mr. Universe had shoulders like that 50 years ago.

What the heck.  I'm not doing anything important, I might as well respond on a sports "discussion".  Too bad we're not in a bar with beers, and TV's.   :).

Growing up I knew two guys that were naturally strong and coordinated, one from youth thru high school, one in college.  They were naturally strong with musculature.  The guy I knew in college, a very good friend, starting lifting for weight.  It was astonishing.  He bulked up immediately.  Immediately.  He stopped.  He turned to other exercise and lifted light weights.  The bulkiness extra musculature ultimately faded away.  Whole time frame occurred over a school year or so.  But it was amazing to see how relatively quickly a relatively or very strong looking guy got tremendously stronger in a relatively short time.  We've stayed friends for decades.  He still exercises but has not lifted for weight ever since.  For a 60+ year old guy he is still in freaking shape.

The other guy goes back to elementary school.  In little league he gave the impression of Mickey Mantle (time and place reference).  Unbelievable, an elementary school kid that had the type of swing of the "greatest swing ever".  He hit that ball a country mile...in little league.  No sh*t.

In high school he was a 3 sport star, the 1st team all state 1st basemen and got a major college baseball scholarship.  He was naturally strong.  I know he didn't lift heavy weights.  In our 30's I ran into him in the DC area.  At the time he worked for one of the govt security groups.  His colleagues acknowledged him as "their best athlete".  We saw one another a little.  He started to lift heavy weights.

I kid you not the guy started looking like the cartoon character, the hulk.  He got immense.  I can verify neither of these two were close to steroids in their youth.  I'd bet 99% sure he didn't do that stuff in his 30's.  He wasn't lifting for competition and he wasn't lifting for a pro sport.  He was just lifting.

So I know there are some naturally strong, and coordinated people by birth; probably thicker boned and thicker stronger muscles.  Think Herschel Walker or Bo Jackson on the national sports scene.  Neither of them ostensibly lifted heavy weights as far as I know.

I tend to think that is Lebron.  Of course we don't know.  He definitely came into the league as a linebacker shaped person in a league ot fleet footed thin quick people.  I carried that physique in his storied high school career, with pics.

But you are skeptical about possible drug taking and I tend to think not.  Right there is a time for a beer break.   Last season Lebron James got a lot of commentary about looking thin at the beginning of the season following a long deliberate diet.  I think this comparative pic gives some perspective:

post-9660-0-33393000-1453405753_thumb.jp

Meanwhile, back to the two teams:  Golden State won twice in the regular season, once with a slaughter.  More to be revealed, but only if they meet in the finals as their regular season games are over.

Back to the issue of Lebron from a different perspective to which you alluded....is he starting to fade?    Is age or wear and tear starting to beat him down?

I thought of 3 comparable players who entered pro basketball right after high school and had comparable long careers; currently Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, and far earlier Moses Malone.  (If there are others add them).  The 3 played (and are playing) way beyond Lebron's current age.  They seemed to accumulate similar minutes and probable wear and tear through age 31 (where Lebron is now)   Within a year or two afterwards their career stats and dominance started to drop.

I watched Malone while playing for the Sixer's in the earlier 80's and then when he came to the Bullets in the mid 80's.  While playing for the Bullets he was still a dominant center.  But he wasn't as good.  Not as relentless, not as energetic, not as capable of grabbing every rebound and quick jumping.  I assume it was wear and tear and age and he had gained weight and bulk somewhat.  I look back now and assume by that time period Malone had played what constituted an entire career for other former stars of those days, and his skills were diminishing.

It appears that starting in their early 30's into mid 30's both Garnett and Kobe Bryant also slowed down, Kobe clearly with injuries.

Not a big sample at all....but Lebron James is "hitting or approaching" that time period....so we'll see.

And back to Curry.  Can't forget him.    All I can say is he is still freaking great, playing a type of game starting from so far out, redefining a way the game is played.  Fun to watch him.

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LeBron James is a *much* better basketball player than Stephen Curry. 

Cleveland is about to win Game 6, and I suspect Golden State will win Game 7, but it doesn't matter. 

LeBron James is a *much* better basketball player than Stephen Curry. 

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Just to comment.  I don't believe in this "head to head" stuff.  Not for basketball in general and specifically not for Lebron vs Curry.  (you must have moved the posts I wrote from a different thread into this thread).  

Basketball is a team game.  Its not boxing or singles tennis.  In singles tennis Federer was the best of his time at his peak but in head to head Nadal had his number.  Their one on one record favors Nadal by a significant amount.  

Basketball is a team game.  For either Lebron or Curry to score a huge volume of points involves their teammates even if all that the others are doing is spreading the floor so the opposition can't double or triple team the scorer.  Teammates could be setting devastating picks or running elaborate plays to free the scorer.  Lebron and Curry don't cover one another excepting switches and some other rare exceptions.  They are not head to head and its not a one on one match up.  Further, both Lebron and Curry are strong passers.  In either case  teammate(s)  could be hot and either Lebron or Curry will smartly convert from scorer to passer.  They have both shown that skill and done so during the playoffs and regular season(s)--regularly. 

I think "head to head" in basketball is very rare, and probably not worth a serious consideration relative to winning and losing.  Russell vs Chamberlain was the first big and possibly most telling "head to head" match up.   Chamberlain dominated the statistics and the visually physical match ups.  Russell's teams dominated the overall competition in wins and losses and virtually ALL of the playoffs match ups.  

In the 80's Magic vs Bird was the media's poster boy head to head match up.  They scarcely played one another in regular season, met a fair amount in the finals, did not cover one another...and what counted to them (most importantly) was wins and losses--not head to head.  Bird has said of that period in paraphrasing---  Magic was better because he made his teammates better than the level that Bird made his teammates better.  

In the 90's and stepping back to the mid 80's Jordan had no comparable head to head competition.  None.

From the late 80's into the 90's there was a match up that was similar to the Russell/Chamberlain one:  Hakeem Olajuwon vs David Robinson.  Review the statistical comparison here  Regular season their "stats" were not that different. But on a team basis Robinson's Spurs dominated Olajuwon's Rockets by a lot.  Statistically they weren't that different. In their one playoff match up Hakeem tanned Robinson's butt.  Embarrassed him....and it is the famous visual point of reference.  

Possibly if you want to compare a selfish ball hogging player such as Kobe with some other scorer of his era...you can look at head to head, but I don't think it relevant to Golden State vs Cleveland and by reference Lebron and Curry.

:D  my $0.02

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1 hour ago, DaveO said:

Just to comment.  I don't believe in this "head to head" stuff.  Not for basketball in general and specifically not for Lebron vs Curry.  (you must have moved the posts I wrote from a different thread into this thread).  

Yeah, well, "head-to-head" doesn't mean they're out there playing one-on-one; it means their teams are playing each other.

For example, Jim Palmer went against Sandy Koufax head-to-head precisely once. This is the commonly accepted use of the term, and it very much applies to team sports.

May 28, 2015 - "Head-to-Toe Breakdown of LeBron James vs. Stephen Curry 2015 NBA Finals Matchup" by Dylan Murphy on bleacherreport.com

Jun 11, 2016 - "Defining Greatness: Stephen Curry and LeBron James Duel in Game 4" by Vincent Thomas on theundefeated.com

"NBA Players Comparison: Stars Head-to-Head" on landofbasketball.com

Screenshot 2016-06-18 at 12.24.11.png

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54 minutes ago, DonRocks said:

Yeah, well, "head-to-head" doesn't mean they're out there playing one-on-one; it means their teams are playing each other.

For example, Jim Palmer went against Sandy Koufax head-to-head precisely once. This is the commonly accepted use of the term, and it very much applies to team sports.

May 28, 2015 - "Head-to-Toe Breakdown of LeBron James vs. Stephen Curry 2015 NBA Finals Matchup" by Dylan Murphy on bleacherreport.com

Jun 11, 2016 - "Defining Greatness: Stephen Curry and LeBron James Duel in Game 4" by Vincent Thomas on theundefeated.com

"NBA Players Comparison: Stars Head-to-Head" on landofbasketball.com

Screenshot 2016-06-18 at 12.24.11.png

Yeah, exactly my point.  Head to head for something like basketball.  In my opinion its for writers and the media.  I don't buy into it.  In fact I still like how Larry Bird described the comparison between Magic Johnson and himself.  Again:  Bird's perspective (paraphrased)   Magic was better because he made his teammates better than I made my teammates better.     Which team is better--which team wins the series.  

Again:  My perspective.

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