Breastfeeding In Restaurants

[bilrus]

YOU might consider it non-dining, but I bet the baby would beg to differ....

[sorry, couldn't resist.  I'll go back to my corner and be quiet now.  ]

Well, most restaurants won't let me bring MY own food to the restaurant. Why should the baby be any different?

I am joking here, BTW .

[Al Dente]

Screw discretion!

Look, I'm an American male. As such, I have bought in to our culture's obsession with boobs, hooters, knockers, fun bags, and whatever else you wanna call em. If I get an especially choice flash of flesh while viewing a bikini at the beach, or a low cut dress during an evening out, hey, BONUS.

BUT, if a mother wants to feed her child, whether in a restaurant, coffee shop, church, doctor's office, or the floor of freakin Congress, I'm not going to feel aroused, distracted, or offended in any way shape or form. This is more than just a biological function-- it is the nurturing and feeding of a child for christ's sakes. Who should give a rat's ass where and how it takes place?

I'll admit to my culturally ingrained stupidity in oggling Pam Anderson's tits, but I refuse to become stupid for the sake of some ridiculous Victorian leftover ideals that continue to get Americans into a lather about something as essential and natural as breastfeeding.

Edited January 3, 2006 by Al Dente

[RaisaB]

Okay, I can't decide whom I love more, Mike or Joe!

Honestly you two have said it better than anyone else here. We as Americans have to get over this BS!

[Ferhat Yalcin]

We had some of those breastfeeding guests at Corduroy. some of them our regulars. we usually try to seat those people away from the other tables.but you know what , instead of me serving them I always ask a waitress to take the table. and the problem is solved from the both sides.

[Nadya]

Though I've never breastfed or exposed myself at the dining room table in any other way (I say if it's not on this continent OR in this century it shouldn't count), but I am going to part ways with the PC fiber. I agree breastfeeding is a natural, worthy, noble, fantastic thing. I just don't think it ought to be done in public., much less at a dinner table. Call me a prude. Surely you can time a once-in-two-hours process to coincide with your bathroom break?

Besides, can't you think of a few other perfectly natural things that you prefer to to in private? Even if they are related to food? A diabetic friend of mine would always retire to the bathroom to shoot up before the meal, even though it's perfectly natural, nay, medically indicated. Okay, maybe not a good comparison, but what of belching, stomach-grumbling and other intestinal noises? Natural, sure, but sightly, no! Of course, people have the right to do it wherever, but I likewise have a right to be grossed out by it.

Edited January 3, 2006 by Nadya

[RaisaB]

Nadya,

Have you ever had a baby? I did not feel exactly as you before my children, but I thought that I would personally go and hide, but everything changes once you have had a child. Edited to add the baby question is just a general question, not a true please answer this, least anyone get too offended.

Ferhat,

I think that is the solution most mothers would prefer. How thoughtful.

Edited to add, I just became a Ventworm!

Edited January 3, 2006 by RaisaB

[DonRocks]

Nadya,

Have you ever had a baby? I did not feel exactly as you before my children, but I thought that I would personally go and hide, but everything changes once you have had a child.

But it doesn't change for the other diners.

Just teasing!

[RaisaB]

But it doesn't change for the other diners.

Just teasing!   

Must show restraint...must show restraint.

Now if I came to your restaurant with a see through blouse, would there be this much talk about exposure?

[mdt]

Must show restraint...must show restraint.

Now if I came to your restaurant with a see through blouse, would there be this much talk about exposure?

It depends on what you look like.

<ducks and runs for cover>

[Nadya]

Tempest in a bloody D-cup.

(I wish.)

(No I don't.)

[DonRocks]

RaisaB said:

Must show restraint...must show restraint.

Now if I came to your restaurant with a see through blouse, would there be this much talk about exposure?

I refuse to bite on what is clearly a divert-and-squirt-type rhetorical tactic.

I say you lactate

You say I lac{k} ta{s}te

Let's call the hole thing off!

Rocks

[tanabutler]

Okay, I can't decide whom I love more, Mike or Joe!

Honestly you two have said it better than anyone else here. We as Americans have to get over this BS!

I couldn't agree more.

First of all, it's not an intimate act. Nursing a child is one of the most natural things in the world, and I don't mean that in a "I'm going to stop shaving my armpits" way. I mean it is no big deal.

I think it's a great service for women to nurse (discreetly, not disrobing or whipping out the whole breast) in public just so these surreptitiously gazing bozos, who are unfortunately stuck in the fourth grade, emotionally, can inwardly go into some kind of elementary school National Geographic reverie. If you're a grown man who thinks seeing Janet Jackson's nipple was some kind of outrageously naughty turn-on (or turn-off, but still outrageously naughty), then you need counseling. You need some perspective about mature sexuality. Meanwhile, stop embarrassing the mothers who are just trying to feed their babies. Stop embarrassing yourselves. Grow up!

A nursing mother isn't about tittilating (heh) you. It's not about turning you on. It's about being the lifeline for her child: a continuous and sustained connection that tells the child, "I am provided for. I am safe."

My mother-in-law kept calling me up from Texas, saying, "Don't you THINK it's TIME you WEANED her?"

Um, no. If it ain't broke, why fix it? I bring this up because she has a very repressed mindset. Remember, not so very many generations ago, you couldn't even say the word "pregnant" in so-called polite company. I don't think it's a lowering of the standards of etiquette or good manners to nurse in public. Quite the opposite. It's raising people's minds out of the gutters by stopping them from thinking there is anything inappropriate or sexual about putting a breast in a baby's mouth.

And as far as bringing a baby into a restaurant goes, I had a quiet baby. I could take her anywhere, for the most part. And being completely attuned with her, I would know if she was about to get fussy, and remove ourselves. This is a completely subjective call, though. I know SO many people who get completely rigid at the sight of an infant in arms in a restaurant, automatically. I guess some people just can't stand children or babies, on sight or principal, in restaurants or not.

The single time my infant cried in a restaurant was when we walked into a restaurant in Boulder with her, a newborn, and a table of eight people gave me the death stare. Seriously. They flashed the most heated, molten looks of pure hatred that I brought a BABY into a place. (And this wasn't that fancy a restaurant. Nice, but not hush-hush proper.) But I guess she felt the vibe, because she started to cry. She stopped as soon as we walked out again: I wasn't going to sit there under those looks. Outside, we sat at a little table and the owner brought us glasses of champagne. A few minutes later, husband and I went in. Just to see. Back with the hate stares, and she started to cry. So we stayed and ate outside, and she was perfectly peaceful. The eight-top left, and we went inside again for dessert. No crying baby.

Wow, my horse is high! I'll come down now.

[SquashSoup]

Wow, my horse is high! I'll come down now.

Bravo!!!

[Barbara]

JPW is so terribly enlightened because he is a new father. When he and Mrs. JPW went to Corduroy last August during RW, they were sans little Emma. We now know (from the Corduroy thread) that she is old enough to appreciate Tom Power's Red Snapper Bisque. What's not to love about THIS kid? Al Dente got married this year and I suppose in the course of events he will be faced with this selfsame issue. In fact, the children of Rockwellians I have met have uniformly been terrific--and that includes Waitman and Mrs. B's teenagers, Jacques Gastreaux's teenagers, Crackers' daughter, Heather's little ones and, you oughta see Harold's little angels! (There are some others, but I can't remember who they belong to. You get the point. I haven't met ANY rotten kids belonging to this group.)

Because I have never seen boorish behavior on the part of any member of this site at any event I have attended with any of you, we all may be preaching to the choir. It's those OTHER people who are the problem. To wit: not dining-oriented but dealing with natural processes--what do you do with somebody who thinks changing a diaper in the most inconvenient spot in all of the Botanical Gardens is perfectly reasonable? Yes, that narrow space in the orchid room, when the place first reopened after the renovation. Picture this, if you will, parking the baby on that bench and then BLOCKING the passageway with your giant stroller while you happily go about your business on one of busiest days ever.

Ferhat seems to have the right idea. But then, he works in one of this groups' favorite places. Coincidence? I don't think so.

Edited January 3, 2006 by Barbara

[monavano]

wit: not dining-oriented but dealing with natural processes--what do you do with somebody who thinks changing a diaper in the most inconvenient spot in all of the Botanical Gardens is perfectly reasonable?

I think it probably smelled worse than that stinky plant that "blooms" once or twice a year.

[porcupine]

First of all, it's not an intimate act.<snip>. Stop embarrassing yourselves. Grow up!

Yes, it is. See my previous reply re: intimate. It is not necessarily the same as "sexual". And please. Those of us who have dared to disagree have been polite and reasonable in our discourse. Your post is full of insults. Grow up yourself.

[trying hard to resist using the emoticon. d'oh!)

[Waitman]

I couldn't agree more.

First of all, it's not an intimate act. Nursing a child is one of the most natural things in the world....

It's hardly a casual act -- like, say, shaking hands or air-kissing. I mean, give it a shot next time you get introduced in a restaurant and let me know how it goes.

And, while we're on the subject, screwing and farting up there in the natural act hierarchy, but I don't necessarily want them going on at the next table while I'm trying to taste the Zinfandel.

Personally, I've always found unnatural acts more compelling. Though again, perhaps more appropriate for the rstroom or a conveient broom closet.

[Al Dente]

And, while we're on the subject, screwing and farting up there in the natural act hierarchy, but I don't necessarily want them going on at the next table while I'm trying to taste the Zinfandel.

Personally, I've always found unnatural acts more compelling.  Though again, perhaps more appropriate for the rstroom or a conveient broom closet.

The other natural acts always come up as an argument against breastfeeding in public. Well, if screwing and farting in public were means to feed a baby, then I'd be for it. Thankfully (I think) they're not.

[tanabutler]

It's hardly a casual act -- like, say, shaking hands or air-kissing.  I mean, give it a shot next time you get introduced in a restaurant and let me know how it goes.

And, while we're on the subject, screwing and farting up there in the natural act hierarchy, but I don't necessarily want them going on at the next table while I'm trying to taste the Zinfandel.

Personally, I've always found unnatural acts more compelling.  Though again, perhaps more appropriate for the rstroom or a conveient broom closet.

Intimate and casual are not the only options here. It's simply something that intelligent adults (and certainly, Europeans) recognize as a natural part of life, and hopefully have the good manners not to gawk, stare, or crane their necks to create discomfort for everyone. If I were still nursing my child in a restaurant, when introductions were made, it would be awkward. She's seventeen.

Farting and having sex are not in the same league as nursing a baby. People who have sex in public (and I've seen them on the beach here) are humiliating themselves. People who fart? I'm so glad that doesn't happen to me, but it is accidental, unless you're in a frat house contest being applauded. And being accidental, only the boorish would point it out. Ignoring it is the polite thing to do.

Just as the song in "South Pacific" says, "You've got to be carefully taught," people are taught to be ashamed of things that are not shameful. Is it pregnant to be shameful? It used to be that no woman could go out during her "confinement" (an interesting word, isn't it, for gestation, reminiscent of imprisonment)--well, I think it's time we moved on. Shame is so tiresome. The nursing mother didn't strip to the waist and leap on top of the table, did she?

I do think it's possible to be discreet. I always covered myself with a well-tented blanket, with plenty of airflow, if I need to feed my baby in public. And I am talking about a baby whose sustenance is milk, not a toddler who doesn't rely on his mother for all his nutrition.

FWIW, I grew up in the Deep South, and our mother nursed us against my father's wishes. He called it "bus station." How thankful I am that such a mindset is a dying one.

[Waitman]

Hey. I'm not against breast feeding in public if discreetly...yada yada yada.

However, the "not intimate" argument is clearly absurd and the "natural act" argument hackneyed and clicheed. I was hoping for better.

And, please God, don't come back with "the Europeans do it."

[Barbara]

And, please God, don't come back with "the Europeans do it."

Dayum! I was just going to mention the time we had dinner at a private home in Aarhus and the sister-in-law of the hostess bringing her baby and "feeding" her in front of us.

[Giancarlo Buonarotti]

Dayum!  I was just going to mention the time we had dinner at a private home in Aarhus and the sister-in-law of the hostess bringing her baby and "feeding" her in front of us.

Everyone deservs an excellent meal, especially babies.

[Waitman]

Dayum!  I was just going to mention the time we had dinner at a private home in Aarhus and the sister-in-law of the hostess bringing her baby and "feeding" her in front of us.

Hell, you didn't have to go to Aarhus, you could have gone to our house (a few years back) to see that.

Small ironic note for kid-a-phobes: if there's any way to ensure that the kid's being quiet in a restaurant, it's to hook him or her up.

Edited January 4, 2006 by Waitman

[DanielK]

Call me a prude. Surely you can time a once-in-two-hours process to coincide with your bathroom break?

(first, this is DanielK's wife speaking... not DanielK! In the interests of full disclosure, I am a Certified Lactation Educator and am also the mother of two children who were breastfed.)

There is an underlying theme that breastfeeding is a wrong or shameful act that needs to be hidden from public view. How very sad! If babies are allowed in a public space, then they should be allowed to eat in that public space (whether they are bottle fed, breast fed or being spoon fed!)

Feeding a baby in the bathroom is unacceptable and completely unsanitary. Would you eat your dinner in a bathroom? Would you eat your dinner while going to the bathroom? Would you eat your dinner in a stall while someone next to you was going to the bathroom? It is highly offensive to suggest that anyone do something that disgusting.

[V.H.]

In response to Nadya's question about timing the feeding with a bathroom break, it's not a quick act for all people. Some folks are able to feed a child quickly, but especially with newborns, they can be slow eaters, taking upwards of half an hour for a single feeding. This leaves the mother with the choice of feeding the child at the table or leaving her dining companion to sit alone for quite a while. Meanwhile, the kitchen staff is trying to figure out what to do with a hot dish that was ready to go out before the mom disappeared for an extended stay to the car, lounge, bathroom, whatever.

Honestly, for those of you who have never seen it at all or haven't seen it done discreetly, many women just raise part of the front of their shirt as they pull their child to them. The child's head and body cover nearly everything that the shirt doesn't.

[Jacques Gastreaux]

This has nothing to do with breastfeeding and everything to do with public exposure of body parts that generally are kept covered when in public. Some people are uncomfortable with that and the public breastfeeders are insensitive to the other peoples' discomfort. There is no right answer to this. The public breastfeeders are going to keep on doing what they do to the continued discomfort of those who are discomforted by it. Who is right?

[The Doctor]

Feeding a baby in the bathroom is unacceptable and completely unsanitary.  Would you eat your dinner in a bathroom?  Would you eat your dinner while going to the bathroom?  Would you eat your dinner in a stall while someone next to you was going to the bathroom?  It is highly offensive to suggest that anyone do something that disgusting.

If you brush your teeth in the bathroom your toothbrush has fecal coliform on it.

[Stretch]

If you brush your teeth in the bathroom your toothbrush has fecal coliform on it.

Thank God I'm British.

[Mrs. B]

Wow, I'm just not sure where to jump in on this discussion since it has been beaten to death both here and on eG and many of the most important points have been eloquently made, but since I held my tongue over there I am going to unload over here.

I breast-fed both my children in public. At the Mall and at the mall, on the plane, on the train, but never outside in the rain.

I did/do not view it as an intimate act but a utilitarian one that allowed me to go about my life in as normal a way as possible. My modesty did dictate that I keep it between me and the child even in the most public of places. That didn't usually require a blanket depending on the shirt, though I would usually have one at hand even though they are kind of a "look at me I'm nursing" flag. I certainly didn't spend the nursing time looking lovingly down at my feeding child (course I'm certain I never did that even while feeding them in private - eeww!) but continued a normal conversation. I don't think that it is my or my kids birthright to be fed on will in any public place then or now but if the kid is hungry and the boobs are full and you can do it discreetly, fine and boob letchers (not to be confused with boob leeches which are what the little shits are) should also enjoy discreetly as Al Dented so quaintly put it .

[Mrs. B]

This has nothing to do with breastfeeding and everything to do with public exposure of body parts that generally are kept covered when in public.  Some people are uncomfortable with that and the public breastfeeders are insensitive to the other peoples' discomfort.  There is no right answer to this.  The public breastfeeders are going to keep on doing what they do to the continued discomfort of those who are discomforted by it.  Who is right?

You know of course how right you are. I made it a habit to avoid breastfeeding my children in front of either my father or father-in-law (actually I didn't care to do it in front of the mothers either) even though there would be no exposure whatsoever. It's all in the mind of the b-cup holder/b-cup beholder.

So I was insensative to all the other old fuddies out there .

[CrescentFresh]

Dec 20, 2003

(Assume opinions have changed)

BUSTED!

[crackers]

  I think it's best to leave the young ones at home until you are confident in their ability to behave in a manner that meets contextual expectations. 

I guess that's why my parents still won't take me to nice restaurants.

As a mom who has nursed more kids for more years than I care to think about, I know all the sides of this weary debate. Sometimes it just becomes unavoidable to feed a babe in arms at a restaurant table. It takes quite a bit of talent actually, to balance the little one on one arm at the proper height and angle, keep a blanket or shawl discreetly draped over everything, and still manage a knife and fork, (or chopsticks) and a composed look on one's face as though nothing is going on at all. It wasn't something I relished (tho the kids sure seemed to) but there were just times when it was necessary -bottles and formula aren't always an option, and sometimes there's just nowhere else to go that is safe and sanitary.

[Nadya]

Come on. Y'all just like typing "breasts."

[MeMc]

Does it depend on the location or the city or how much cleveage is showing in general? K Street area is a no, Del Ray and any other stroller population (cap Hill?) is a yes. Manhattan is a no, Brooklyn is a yes. SF-- anything goes.

[ol_ironstomach]

Meanwhile, mooning ruled not a crime in Maryland.

(( /|

[Banco]

May I just interrupt here to say that Ms. Banco and I gave birth to a delightful baby girl on December 27th. As was her brother before her, Isabella will be breastfed, occasionally in restaurants. (My wife is, after all, egads, European .) We are already planning massive nurse-ins at Corduroy, Citronelle, CityZen, and all kinds of other places Isabella's college fund will be wasted on. (Joke!)

As for the debate itself, I'm with Al Dente and Joe, as practically any parent these days would be. Having a child changes your perspective on many things. But like so many topics discussed on this board, context is crucial: the nature of the restaurant, the arrangement of the tables, the "atmosphere" of the place, etc. It follows that there is no hard and fast rule about what is appropriate and what isn't. In each case breastfeeding women should exercise judgment; those around them should exercise tolerance. That's generally how civilized society works, or what's left of it.

By the way, when dining alone I occasionally masturbate, but I always bring a blanket and am very discreet.

Edited January 4, 2006 by Banco

[Al Dente]

That's a whole other thread.

[Jacques Gastreaux]

May I just interrupt here to say that Ms. Banco and I gave birth to a delightful baby girl on December 27th.

Congratulations on the birth of your dauthter. What do you call her, "Banquette?"

Edited January 4, 2006 by Jacques Gastreaux

[Heather]

Congrats on the new little one, Banco. Your comment above made me spit diet Coke all over myself.

[JPW]

Hey, that's great Banco!

Best to go out in the first 6 months when she can pretty reliably be expected to sleep through meals. You just need to get the timing right.

I thought the middle part of your post was well put as well.

I'm going to pretend I didn't read the last part.

[brr]

Congrats Banco!

In honor of this thread I'll be listening to these guys this afternoon

[Al Dente]

Can we not talk about boobs and loaded diapers in the same thread please?

[dinwiddie]

Male, of an age over 50, and parent (son is now 19) here. I think Joe had the right comment, times change. When I was young, a woman wouldn't think of breastfeeding an infant in public. Now it is an acceptable act among most folks, me included, and doing so discretely in a restaurant is no big deal. The only guys who should have a problem with it are the ones who haven't grown up enough to realize that exposing a breast to an infant is not a sexual act.

[lackadaisi]

Not to recombine the issues, but I typed this all up before the other thread was locked.

I see three main issues here: (1) taking babies out; (2) breastfeeding the babies; and (3) changing the babies' diapers.

On taking babies out, I think it depends on the baby. As many of you know, I see no inherent problem with it. Thus, many of you have met my baby at places "at or around K street." Although I am well aware that there are places better suited to children in the suburbs, I do not live in the suburbs. I live downtown, and so does my baby. I feel that as long as I can keep my baby quiet and it does not intrude, there are few places where I will not bring her. That doesn't mean that there are no places. I would not take my baby to Citronelle (except on kid's day) or Cityzen or Komi or anyplace of that type. But, my baby frequents Beck and has gone a few times to Central and was a regular at the old Corduroy (probably won't go to the new Corduroy). I do not feel that it is my right to take my baby out, but I feel that if I can do so without it impinging greatly on anyone else's experience, then I will.

I have been very lucky so far and my baby is generally very well-behaved and quiet. In addition to luck, this requires a lot of planning. For instance, I always feed my baby right before we go out. And, we remove her from the scene as soon as there is any indication that she is unhappy. Sometimes we can bring her back after the issue is fixed, sometimes not.

With regard to strollers, we do our absolute best not to have one with us, but that is not always possible. I have blisters on my hands from carrying the baby in the car seat with us to Beck, and I will continue to do that for as long as she can fit in it. But, I can't carry it for much further than that, and I will NOT take my car when I can do without. And, for the sake of keeping her silent, I need a place to sit her so she doesn't disturb anyone.

Until this past week, she has remained in that stage where she is able to sleep through anything, and it doesn't matter where she is. So, we have actually purposefully taken her out on the later side - a time that most people would not call baby-friendly. But, for her it worked because she was asleep and not bothering anyone. Earlier, and she would have been awake. I think this has worked well for us. That time has likely passed though, and now, she is needing her crib more. So, we have a babysitter for those things now. But, I had no shame in taking her out late while it was working for everyone.

I also have no shame in breastfeeding. I am very proud of the fact that I am able to breastfeed my child exclusively, and I don't feel the need to hide that. But, I also don't need to flaunt it in your face. So, I bring bottles for when I am out. But, if I were to run out of milk while out, I would certainly feed her at the table. I try to cover up, but if that doesn't work, then too bad. I see no shame in that. And, there is no way in hell that I am going to go and hide in a bathroom stall to feed my child. Anyone that thinks that is a viable option should check back after they have had a child.

On the other hand, I won't change my child at the table. Food and poop don't go together. But, seriously, why don't more places have changing tables? I can't stand going into a bathroom, especially a large one where such a table would fit easily, and having to get down on the floor to change the child. So not cool. Although I don't think that restaurants should be required to have such tables, I wish more would. They don't all have to be ugly; Beck has one that fits right into thier design scheme.