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Fine Dining at Bars


apicius

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It is interesting for me to read the comment on some restaurants and I see that the way people are eating changed a lot in the last ten years.

Reading the comment of PS7 I see only comment about the bar and teh bar food, not much about his restaurant, the same way that it seems that the only food prepared by Frank Ruta at Palena is roasted chicken.

There are numerous other examples.

More and more restaurant are doing it including the best ones (CitronelleCityZen).

It is difficult to have a "classic" restaruant in DC you need either a bar or a privcate dining-room to make your operation profitable.

The casual dining and small plates is growing, the old fashioned dining is not dying but changing.

What do you think?

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It is interesting for me to read the comment on some restaurants and I see that the way people are eating changed a lot in the last ten years.

Reading the comment of PS7 I see only comment about the bar and teh bar food, not much about his restaurant, the same way that it seems that the only food prepared by Frank Ruta at Palena is roasted chicken.

There are numerous other examples.

More and more restaurant are doing it including the best ones (CitronelleCityZen).

It is difficult to have a "classic" restaruant in DC you need either a bar or a privcate dining-room to make your operation profitable.

The casual dining and small plates is growing, the old fashioned dining is not dying but changing.

What do you think?

It definitely seems to me that people are drinking more, and eating less. Of course that's a great business model.
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reasons why i like eating at the bar at a fine dining establishment:

1) bartenders are closer to the drinks and thus you're likely to get your drink order more quickly.

2) bartenders are less likely to leave an establishment, and thus you get more of a chance to get to know the person if it's a place you decide to frequent

3) the normal food menu is usually available, and sometimes there are bar specials that you can't get at a table.

4) random people are entertaining. even if i'm eating at the bar with another person or two, it's always easier to talk to random people if you're sitting at the bar.

5) this isn't always true, but can be easier to get a seat at the bar than to get a table...saves having to make a reservation, and if the bar is full, you can usually stand up with a drink while you wait for somebody to leave.

and of course, 6) it's more likely you'll see somebody from DR.com at the bar.

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5) this isn't always true, but can be easier to get a seat at the bar than to get a table...saves having to make a reservation, and if the bar is full, you can usually stand up with a drink while you wait for somebody to leave.
And that makes it easier to go out on the spur of the moment, especially to a place where it's tough to get a res.
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Sitting at the bar is a more social experience. We rarely eat at a table anymore, unless we're with a group of people. I like being able to chat with people near me and/or the bartender. I was at RTC earlier this week and the person next to me was the chef from the Tabard Inn. He's a super nice guy and we chatted about all sorts of stuff (he analyzed my pasta making problems, and I have him ideas on how to use curry leaves).

Service at the bar tends to be better - you're in closer proximity to your server at all times and as stated earlier, you're closer to the source of your drinks. Always an important factor!

Finally, I like the idea of stopping in for a short period of time. I don't always have two hours for a proper sit down meal, but I can easily give up thirty minutes of my time for a drink and an appetizer or two.

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Actually, I dislike eating in bars. I don't drink much of anything except wine anymore, so I couldn't care less about being close to the drinks. I prefer sitting in a chair at a table to sitting at a bar on a stool when I'm eating. And worst of all, in those cities where smoking is still permitted, bars are where the smoke is. Sitting at the counter to have breakfast or lunch at a diner is one thing, sitting at a bar around a bunch of folks drinking is not my idea of enjoying a meal. Of course, often there are tables or booths in the bar, so eating there is not too bad as long as the place isn't full of a bunch of rowdy drunks or smoke. However, I prefer a table to a booth, so even then I'd rather eat in the restaurant and save the bar for drinks.

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I have this debate with my husband all the time. I prefer to do fine dining at a table with service, not a bar, but he is content to drink and eat on a stool by himself. However, I am glad that fine dining establishments do offer the bar menu as a taste of what they can do in the dining room, at a lower price. For those of us who do not have the money or the time to spend on a several hour, sit-down, served table meal all the time, the Palena or Cityzen bar is a nice alternative. As a consumer, I'm pleased that there are more choices and venues for good food. The rise of the fine dining bars and gastro-pubs certainly seems to indicate less elitism and more egalitarianism in terms of accessibility to good cooking and good food. I agree it's not a bad business model either. You may go to a bar to drink, but then you get hungry and order some small plates, next thing you know, you've had a 3 course meal and several drinks. Not a bad deal for the establishment.

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Of course, often there are tables or booths in the bar, so eating there is not too bad as long as the place isn't full of a bunch of rowdy drunks or smoke.
I can't help you with the rowdy drunks, but after the first of the year you won't have to worry about smoking in restaurants in DC.
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I can't help you with the rowdy drunks, but after the first of the year you won't have to worry about smoking in restaurants in DC.

True, but the only time I ever eat in bars is when I am by myself, which usually means while I am on travel. While more and more places are banning smoking in bars, there are still plenty of places where it is permitted. There are even still places where restaurants only have to provide a separate smoking and nonsmoking section without any effort to make sure that smoke does not migrate from the smoking section toward those of us who prefer the only smoke to be when we order BBQ.

I agree that it is a good thing that you can get a good meal in restaurant bars, especially at a lower price, but I'll still want a table if I'm having dinner, especially when dining with my wife.

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If I'm going drinking, it's nice to have a few good options at the bar, something simple but good that doesn't take too much concentration when things get rowdy around you.

If I'm dining, however, I want a table where I can spread out, chairs with backs and real courses, not $12 demitasse plates of trendy hors d'oeuvres. I want a waiter who has the time to talk to my table, because there aren't 84 people leaning over the bar trying to get his attention so they can order another appletini. I like not having to worry about my fellow patrons' elbows catching my spoon arm at the wrong time, causing me to spill pumpkin bisque onto one of my few good ties. And I want to camp out.

From a food point of view, I view with deep suspicion recent trends towards small plates, expensive decore and informal dining at the bar. I think it means I have to end up paying for the $4 million makeover and that it gives restaurants a lot more slack to provide mediocre food and service at prices that favor the house over the diner. Since it's just a bar, you put up with stuff you wouldn't if you were eating in a quiet room with linen napkins.

Not that I begrudge, for example, every restaurant in Penn Quarter (practically) finding a buisness model that works, or the people who love it there. I like going out swell places with the young and the hip as much as any aging yuppie who doesn't have to spend money on a babysitter any more. (I'm sure in another couple of years, I'll start running into my kids at Zola. God help us all). Penn Quarter is a lot of fun, and I enjoy getting a little dressy, drinking something weird and having high quality munchies readily available. But, almost without exception, I think of them as great bars with good food, not as great restaurants.

To the original post, I wonder how the economics of opening another Circle Bistro or Rays compare to those of opening a PS7 or Poste. Is the pie getting bigger? Or are the bar/tapas places crowding out the more formal establishments.

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Casual dining and small plates is definitely the trend right now, but I don't want to see fine dining disappear. You can also have casual dining combined with excellent cuisine. The best models of that are the restaurants that allow customers to order from the full menu at the bar. We've enjoyed that experience at Le Bernardin in NYC, Tosca, Kinkead's, Le Paradou, Restaurant Eve and Palena, to name a few. At least in those places, you generally have a pretty pleasant atmosphere, with a fair amount of elbow room, and noisy messy drunk people aren't yammering all around you. It's great to eat at the bar in places like that because you don't have to worry so much about getting all dressed up, it's more spontaneous, it can be a lot quicker, and it's easier to order a few appetizers or sharing just an entree, which you might feel conspicuous doing in the dining room. The setting is important -- if you have to sit at tiny little bar tables that barely hold a single dinner plate, or if it's too noisy or crowded, it's just no fun. I like having the option of choosing to eat at the bar or at a table in the dining room, and getting the same high quality food and service either way -- it usually depends on the circumstances -- how much time do I have, what do I feel like eating, am I dressed right, who am I with, how much am I prepared to spend, etc. From the restaurant's point of view, it seems like a wise model, especially if the average ticket in the dining room is substantial. People may be inclined to try the menu at the bar a few times to see if they like the cooking before being willing to plunk down a lot of money for the full gastronomic experience in the dining room. Without the opportunity to try the food at the bar, they may put off trying the dining room, because they think it's too expensive and may not be worth the price.

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Obviously, I am a bit biased when it comes to eating at the bar as I have been working and running them for 15 years, but there are pleanty of times that I prefer to eat at the bar, whether I am alone or with a date. Yes, there are times when I prefer the intimacy of a table as ooposed to being on display at the bar, but I feel that if you choose wisely, one can have the best dining experience at the bar. Just as the server should make it his/her goal to give you the best personal service possible, I strongly believe that a exceptional bartender will go over and above to make your experience unique. Sometimes, there are just many more perks and if they have alick of sense, can read you and make suggestions or choices for you. It is a much more personal experience, especially if you are a regular of the establishment. I have a knack for remembering most everybody that I have served, especially women :) , but when I get new guests, I want them to feel at home and really inform them about the menu and beverages. There have been plenty of times where guests cannot get a table and are offered the bar and they have the :) reaction. I love to change their opinion and convert them towards the light. The intamacy of my current bar-7 seats allows for that, as opposed to larger bars that sometimes will not. When I dined at Yanyu years ago, I remarked that I could never work such a tiny bar. Well, while I long for 7 more seats(possibly by restructuring the current wall) I love my current real estate as it allows for a very communal feel, as well as a perfect poker table. One concept that I am begining to offer is the ability to reserve the bar for your dinner. I have booked 5 parties already and basically the bar is yours for you and 6 of your friends. Just as you reserve a table in the dining room, The chef and I will create a tasting menu for you and your party. Cocktails and apps will begin the event and then the chef will prepare special items that I will then pair with wine. The cost is from $55-85 per person depending upon the menu and wines. If you are interested, please call me at the restaurant.

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To the original post, I wonder how the economics of opening another Circle Bistro or Rays compare to those of opening a PS7 or Poste. Is the pie getting bigger? Or are the bar/tapas places crowding out the more formal establishments.
I'd make a distinction between restaurants that offer dining at the bar, and place that are designed to have a bar "scene," with Ray's the Classics in the former category, and some of the Penn Quarter places in the latter.
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From a food point of view, I view with deep suspicion recent trends towards small plates, expensive decore and informal dining at the bar. I think it means I have to end up paying for the $4 million makeover and that it gives restaurants a lot more slack to provide mediocre food and service at prices that favor the house over the diner.

In my mind, small plates are the restaurant world's equivalent of a hand job at the end of a date.

(Of course I like to think of myself as the filthy, dirty, brazen slut who puts out shamelessly and has a really good time doing it and really doesn't care what anyone thinks anyway of the restaurant world. Maybe not as pretty as the other girls but I'm happy with a six-pack, a fat 'Lumbo doobie, some Skynyrd and the stars sitting on the hood of your car down by the quarry.)

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Obviously, I am a bit biased when it comes to eating at the bar as I have been working and running them for 15 years, but there are pleanty of times that I prefer to eat at the bar, whether I am alone or with a date. Yes, there are times when I prefer the intimacy of a table as ooposed to being on display at the bar, but I feel that if you choose wisely, one can have the best dining experience at the bar. Just as the server should make it his/her goal to give you the best personal service possible, I strongly believe that a exceptional bartender will go over and above to make your experience unique. Sometimes, there are just many more perks and if they have alick of sense, can read you and make suggestions or choices for you. It is a much more personal experience, especially if you are a regular of the establishment. I have a knack for remembering most everybody that I have served, especially women :) , but when I get new guests, I want them to feel at home and really inform them about the menu and beverages. There have been plenty of times where guests cannot get a table and are offered the bar and they have the :) reaction. I love to change their opinion and convert them towards the light. The intamacy of my current bar-7 seats allows for that, as opposed to larger bars that sometimes will not. When I dined at Yanyu years ago, I remarked that I could never work such a tiny bar. Well, while I long for 7 more seats(possibly by restructuring the current wall) I love my current real estate as it allows for a very communal feel, as well as a perfect poker table. One concept that I am begining to offer is the ability to reserve the bar for your dinner. I have booked 5 parties already and basically the bar is yours for you and 6 of your friends. Just as you reserve a table in the dining room, The chef and I will create a tasting menu for you and your party. Cocktails and apps will begin the event and then the chef will prepare special items that I will then pair with wine. The cost is from $55-85 per person depending upon the menu and wines. If you are interested, please call me at the restaurant.

Wait...what if I just want to go to Dino's to have a little cheese and and some red wine, and the bar is full of tasting-menu people? Then I'd have to get a table to drink like I'm at the bar, while the people at the bar are eating as though they're at a table. "Please sir, have have a seat at a table, while we wait for something in the bar to open up." :lol:

I'm so confused.

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To the original post, I wonder how the economics of opening another Circle Bistro or Rays compare to those of opening a PS7 or Poste. Is the pie getting bigger? Or are the bar/tapas places crowding out the more formal establishments.

I doubt that most people want to celebrate their anniversaries and birthdays sitting on a stool working on a little plate of sliders, washing it down with some pastel colored concoction. I think more formal restaurants are safe for the time being.

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I doubt that most people want to celebrate their anniversaries and birthdays sitting on a stool working on a little plate of sliders, washing it down with some pastel colored concoction. I think more formal restaurants are safe for the time being.
We're not most people and certainly DO love to celebrate our anniversaries at the bar. But that's just us.

I think that it's safe to say that bars with food have their place, as do fancy restaurants and their tables. The pendulum may be swinging in one direction but it will eventually correct itself and swing back.

And if miniplates are like handjobs at the end of a date, then I say bring it on!! There's a time and place for the quick and messy. :)

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Wait...what if I just want to go to Dino's to have a little cheese and and some red wine, and the bar is full of tasting-menu people? Then I'd have to get a table to drink like I'm at the bar, while the people at the bar are eating as though they're at a table. "Please sir, have have a seat at a table, while we wait for something in the bar to open up." :)

I'm so confused.

Good point, but I suppose you run that risk anyway, being that the bar only seats seven.

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Trust Landrum to reach way, way down for an analogy.

Are the customers driving the trend, or the restaurants?

Good question. I'm dubious of the general public's ability to start a trend. Look at the fashion world (or really any place where pop culture and the arts meet). Lots of people have a herd mentality - when everyone tells them they want platform shoes, skinny jeans, etc, they blindly follow along, even if they don't really enjoy it. I think it's the same thing with food. Open enough trendy hotspots with red carpets and velvet ropes and people will clamour for it, regardless of how bad the food and overpriced it is.

Eventually the madness will end only to be replaced by some other fad. In the meantime, the truly great places will hum along in the background and be appreciated by a more discerning minority.

Oh yeah...so in answer to your question, I think it's the restaurants that drive the trend.

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And worst of all, in those cities where smoking is still permitted, bars are where the smoke is.
I actually eat at bars often so I CAN smoke. I just like heading over to Cashion's or wherever with my book, having a nice cocktail and a few smokes, having an appetizer, taking a rest, ordering another.... When I'm eating alone, it's a much more casual, undirected way to experience a meal, which I really like from time to time. Plus, you can clearly see when the bartender is slammed, so I don't get frustrated with service.

As long as the stool is comfy...!

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I think the term and pricing of "small plates" is much-abused.

BUT.....where the ingredients and execution compare to that of any "entree" then it's a great step - after all, for most of the world, a 4-5 oz "small plate" is, yes, an ACTUAL course - even a main.

The movement towards charcuterie plates, cheese courses, tapas, mezze, etc. illustrates the fact that diners are sick of being force-fed massive, artificially-raised, cold-by-the-fifth-bite, loosen-the-belt, no-post-meal-sex-too-stuffed-going to-sleep portions at DC's establishment steak houses, chain, and local-chain restaurants.

Who ever said we had to eat that way?

So instead, people have started instead sitting at the bar or lounge and creating their own "tasting menus;" I think restaurateurs seem to be [finally] obliging with more creative items than stock appetizers like fried-this or fried-that.

In the long run, maybe this "trend" - which is actually how most of the world approaches food - will make its way back into our dining rooms in the form of more multi-course/tasting menus and the chance to experience more of a chef's range.

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I think the term and pricing of "small plates" is much-abused.

BUT.....where the ingredients and execution compare to that of any "entree" then it's a great step for our cuisine - after all, for most of the world, a 5-6 oz "small plate" is an actual course - even a main.

The movement towards charcuterie plates, cheese courses, tapas, mezze, etc. illustrates the fact that diners are sick of being force-fed massive, artificially-raised, cold-by-the-fifth-bite, loosen-the-belt, no-post-meal-sex-too-stuffed-going to-sleep portions at DC's establishment steak houses, chain, and local-chain restaurants.

People wonder: "Who ever said we had to eat that way?"

So instead, people have started instead sitting at the bar or lounge and creating their own "tasting menus;" I think restaurateurs seem to be [finally] obliging with more creative items than stock appetizers like fried-this or fried-that.

In the long run, maybe this "trend" - which is actually how most of the world approaches food - will make its way back into our dining rooms in the form of more mulit-course/tasting menus and the chance to experience more of a chef's range.

I can't speak for most of the world but neither the French nor the Greeks (who do do the small plate thing -- "mezedhes" -- but as an adjunct to drinking or a first course, as opposed to a real meal) generally eat little plates at dinner. Au contraire. And props to those places where they cure charcuterie in house, but I'm not sure a few slices of cured pork and a couple of dollops of cheese gives me much insight into the chef's range. And, as to whether diners at Firefly or or Marcels are "being force-fed massive, artificially-raised, cold-by-the-fifth-bite, loosen-the-belt, no-post-meal-sex-too-stuffed-going to-sleep portions," force feed me a little pancetta wrapped rabbit with mustard/morel sauce any time. I can make beans and sausage at home.

I'd actually like to see the tapas trend go really Spanish: a couple of small plates with our sherry at 6PM, to tide us over until dinner at 11. It's bar food, not dinner.

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massive, artificially-raised, cold-by-the-fifth-bite, loosen-the-belt, no-post-meal-sex-too-stuffed-going to-sleep portions
Great description.
In the long run, maybe this "trend" - which is actually how most of the world approaches food - will make its way back into our dining rooms in the form of more multi-course/tasting menus and the chance to experience more of a chef's range.
Maybe so, but restauranteurs may need to adjust their portions or prices, or maybe diners here need to adjust their expectations.

One of the things I noticed in France was how often I was able to comfortably eat a multicourse meal. There were exceptions but they were few. They were courses, however, not "small plates".

We fell in love with the Spanish approach in Madrid and Barcelona. Of course, the tapas did not cost $9-12 either.

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....Neither the French nor the Greeks.....generally eat little plates at dinner. Au contraire. And, as to whether diners at Firefly or or Marcels are "being force-fed massive, artificially-raised, cold-by-the-fifth-bite, loosen-the-belt, no-post-meal-sex-too-stuffed-going to-sleep portions," force feed me a little pancetta wrapped rabbit with mustard/morel sauce any time. I can make beans and sausage at home.
Your points are all valid, Waitman, but I think you may want to read my post again. For clarity's sake:

I think its pretty clear that I did not equivocate american small plates/mezzes/tapas with actual courses - but rather compared the portion size to single european or, say, japanese, courses.

And how you jumped from my critique of the volume-feeding approach of Ruth's Chris, Capital Grille, and Clydes and applied it to the sensible and excellent cuisine at Firefly or Marcel's is just a little hard for me to follow.

It appears by your last comment that we actually agree entirely....unless your pancetta/rabbit dish is refers to wrapping an entire rabbit in pancetta....

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Your points are all valid, Waitman, but I think you may want to read my post again. For clarity's sake:

I think its pretty clear that I did not equivocate american small plates/mezzes/tapas with actual courses - but rather compared the portion size to single european or, say, japanese, courses.

And how you jumped from my critique of the volume-feeding approach of Ruth's Chris, Capital Grille, and Clydes and applied it to the sensible and excellent cuisine at Firefly or Marcel's is just a little hard for me to follow.

It appears by your last comment that we actually agree entirely....unless your pancetta/rabbit dish is refers to wrapping an entire rabbit in pancetta....

I've had the good luck to spend a reasonable amount of time in both France and Greece in the last couple of years and I can confidently state that I have almost never -- except when being served a snack with a drink -- been served a tapas-sized course as an actual course. In fact, even as a rather large guy, I found myself regularly stuffed by three-course meals in France this summer. I even found myself passing on the cheese course! My wife was down to one course and a shared dessert by the end of the trip. The Greeks are similarly hearty in their portion sizes. Admittedly, my budget is decidedly mid-scale so I found myself in the more traditional establishments, not the Euro-bling spots, which may be downsizing as the small plate trend goes global, or the starred establishments that offer tasting menus. Most places seem to want to fill you up with a three course meal, and they do.

I do think your post implied a Manichean world in which diners choose between satisfying small plates and Flintstonian excess without acknowledging the third way embodied Firefly etc. But, since we seem to be in agreement I'm not going to worry about it.

At 2 Amy's I believe they wrap the whole bunny, btw, but the only serve a couple of slices with a fruit compote. Marcel's only does the loin. It's good to live in a world where we can have both.

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Well, without a massive shift in our early-to-bed, early-to-rise culture it's not going to happen here.
I'm doing my personal best to set a good example, but my minions are few :)

I love the Catalan approach to fine-dining tasting menus, but several of the courses are typically small-plate sized. This is heavily offset by the fact that a nominally five-course tasting menu will actually consist of up to 12 or 13 plates. The primary fish and meat courses will be a sensible "normal" size, however. Part of the trick is that they vary the richness of the courses, tapering off as you work through the multiple dessert courses. Of course, there would also have to be a fundamental shift in restaurant economics, as the table will see zero turns for the night - it's yours from seating to closing - and standards of service are high. With few exceptions, each of those 12 or 13 plates will come with a complete flatware change.

However, this is tangential to the main question of whether bar food makes for a "real" dinner. Again, we found the Catalans and Basques flexible on this point. Tapas bars generally do not feature table service in the front room; you load up AT the bar, then either stand, or grab a seat at a table to eat. Larger portions (raciones) may be ordered at the bar, but for the most part you can nosh well on the provided items and call it a meal. I enjoyed the heck out of grazing this way, especially the pintxos in the Basque country, but it is unequivocally not fine dining.

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I am informed that they will start serving lunch next week, but call first to make sure.

If the food is anything like the Pizza Margherita ($12) I had last night at the noisy, unorganized bar, you should call to make sure they're closed. I applaud the wine pricing ($8 for a Soave, $9 for a Salice Salentino, both generously poured in stemless glassware), but the bar service was amateurish and impossibly uncoordinated, and my pizza was not charred, but flat-out burnt (though I should point out the one next to me looked properly cooked). The bar will never, ever be my cup of tea (I am, quite simply, SICK of dining in bars such as this - noisy, money-making thump machines that have proliferated all over town), but hopefully the main dining room - which was also very crowded last night - will be more to my tastes, which are rapidly becoming less tolerant of the "bar dining experience" - something which used to be a pleasure, but has lately become a chore.

I'm putting this in a separate thread so as not to pick on Potenza, which is merely the latest in a pile of straws that is breaking this camel's back. (In contrast, dining at the bar at Zola is, and has always been, a pleasure.)

Cheers,

Rocks.

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If the food is anything like the Pizza Margherita ($12) I had last night at the noisy, unorganized bar, you should call to make sure they're closed. I applaud the wine pricing ($8 for a Soave, $9 for a Salice Salentino, both generously poured in stemless glassware), but the bar service was amateurish and impossibly uncoordinated, and my pizza was not charred, but flat-out burnt (though I should point out the one next to me looked properly cooked). The bar will never, ever be my cup of tea (I am, quite simply, SICK of dining in bars such as this - noisy, money-making thump machines that have proliferated all over town), but hopefully the main dining room - which was also very crowded last night - will be more to my tastes, which are rapidly becoming less tolerant of the "bar dining experience" - something which used to be a pleasure, but has lately become a chore.

I'm putting this in a separate thread so as not to pick on Potenza, which is merely the latest in a pile of straws that is breaking this camel's back. (In contrast, dining at the bar at Zola is, and has always been, a pleasure.)

Cheers,

Rocks.

Dining last night at Spezie was a distinct pleasure. Very few other patrons, so I recomment that everyone get in there to 1)enjoy the peace and quiet and exceptional food and 2)support this business that serves exceptional food in a non-miserable, non-thump-thump environment.

(Will post details on Spezie thread as soon as I get the chance.)

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I see where you guys are coming from and agree, BUT... if this is the price we have to pay for some of our area's best to come through the recession unscathed, then so be it. I'd prefer this to a massive wave of closings. Adapting and "leaning up" to make it through this long, unprecedented economic winter is something almost every place will have to do.

This trend of big, noisy bars started before the recession. Restaurateurs were very long-sighted in what has basically been an industry-wide development of this concept.

I pine for the days at 12th and K Streets NW, where I could park right outside, walk up to the bar at Corduroy, and enjoy a quiet, world-class meal all by myself. (Granted, Corduroy is still fulfilling this need quite nicely, but it's a bit further afield now, and parking can be problematic).

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ah the days i long for when living in my small world of Richmond where the largest bar in the neighborhood consisted of 10 stools top and no one was standing room only. where food was the focus, albeit very primitive, and the drinks were hearty and quite strong. wine was the at the top of everyone's thinking because it was 'artsy' much like Richmond. I remember the days when Millie's was only one room, and the bar was also the expo line for food in the dinning room. those days where small meant many more and large was looked upon like someone rooting for..The Cincinati Bengals. Odd, and somewhat strange.

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