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Is That Food Going to Kill Me?


brettashley01

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Ok, I have a feeling I am going to get a lot of flack for this, but I have to ask... how can you be sure that you won't get sick from eating ground, raw beef/lamb? Yes, I eat sashimi, and I have eaten beef tartare. Is there any method for "curing" the meat to ensure safety?

ETA Disclaimer: I realize you can't be "sure you won't get sick" from eating any food, raw or cooked. However one could argue that most instances or e.coli and salmonella result from the improper handling of meat, poultry and vegetables, and ingestion of raw meats and poultry.

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You trust that you're ordering raw dishes from somewhere that knows their suppliers and knows how to handle the ingredients properly. If you "cure" the meat or fish, it's not technically raw anymore - it becomes a different dish like ceviche or tataki - but even then there's no guarantee that every conceivable pathogen or parasite is gone. Basically, you're either willing to take the risk or you're not.

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I agree with the above comment, know your restuarant. I had a wonderful steak tartar at Bebo a couple of weeks ago. It did not even give it a second thought. I would not think twice about ordering it at Ray's or many other places. I would not order it from Bennigan's or some other major chain. I can and will prepare this dish myself, by grinding my own meat. I eat sushi from several places, no problems. I would not expect sushi grade fish from Magruders, nor eat it raw from there.

The other thing is to ask questions. Trust your gut (there is a joke in there somewhere). I have ggotten sick from a couple of places. the worst was a chain called the "Chesapeake Bay Seafood House". After a dinner there, I went to sleep and by the time I went to work the next day, could not even fuction.

From my understanding, it takes a while for food posioning to kick in. It's hard to tell what caused it and frankly, it is a risk we all take. That being said, who is up for raw oysters this evening?

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There are no mandatory tests for E-coli in meats or produce. The costs does not warrant the hardly measurable risk of 61 annual deaths. Pasteurization and boiling kills E coli and avoiding livestock that is raised, bathed and slaughtered in poo is recommended. Meats can not be “washed” like fruits and vegetables. A 2005 Tufts University Health letter noted that “your hands, where they grasped the meat while washing it, could become just as bacteria-laden as the surface of the food...the best bet is to leave meat or poultry untouched until you start cooking it.” Less specific is how to bring said meat into pan or oven without touching it. Easier for Uri Geller than you or I.

Using sterile gloves, rubbing alcohol, disposable blades and sterile forceps might help, but fecal contamination is only killed at 160F, and proteins cooked above the “well done” temperature produce carcinogenic heterocyclic amines which cancer epidemiology has linked to stomach cancer. Irradiation (cold pasteurization) eliminates the risk of E coli in ground meats and they are available in the US, but the labeling carries a negative connotation. Beyond losing epicurean label romance, irradiating (albeit harmless) might increase the time products spend between processing and consumer.

General food related illness however is far more spooky for those easily frightened. As per the CDC:

“...We estimate that foodborne diseases cause approximately 76 million illnesses, 325,000 hospitalizations, and 5,000 deaths in the United States each year. Known pathogens account for an estimated 14 million illnesses, 60,000 hospitalizations, and 1,800 deaths. Three pathogens, Salmonella, Listeria, and Toxoplasma, are responsible for 1,500 deaths each year, more than 75% of those caused by known pathogens, while unknown agents account for the remaining 62 million illnesses, 265,000 hospitalizations, and 3,200 deaths. Overall, foodborne diseases appear to cause more illnesses but fewer deaths than previously estimated.”

With fatalist concerns, virtually anything “felt” after wary consumption could be diagnosed as being psychosomatic and one will probably get sick from something else which they hadn't considered in their paranoid fantasies.

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Arguably you should be MORE wary about veggies and other things getting you sick. They're less likely to be washed and handled appropriately in comparison to raw meat. Remember that beautiful uniformly sliced lettuce you see on some plates... that means they shoved it in a slicer without washing all of it.

We have a tendency to be far more cautious about proteins because there is a huge stigma surrounding them. I think Bourdain wrote a whole chapter about it in one of his books - I don't remember which one.

Aside from the Jack in the Box e. coli issue, I recall more stories of food poisoning from the fruits and veg. The Chi-Chi's scallion and the school lunch strawberry problems spring to mind.

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Ah, the fear mongers. Let's take a look at this rationally, shall we? 5,000 food poisoning deaths... wow... 5,000 people out of three hundred million? Over 15,000 people die each year in the US in car accidents. So think about that the next time you get in a car, "I am three times as likely to die doing this than I would be from eating." The odds of contracting food poisoning are so monumentally small that it shouldn't even be on your radar. Food safety is so stringent in the US that you'd have to WORK to get food poisoning.

I've eaten all manner of raw meats at home just to prove this point.

The media get so excited when a handful of people die or get sick from tainted spinach, and we react much like the cattle we're so afraid of contracting disease from.

So please... eat without fear... unless you play the lottery.

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Ah, the fear mongers. Let's take a look at this rationally, shall we? 5,000 food poisoning deaths... wow... 5,000 people out of three hundred million? Over 15,000 people die each year in the US in car accidents. So think about that the next time you get in a car, "I am three times as likely to die doing this than I would be from eating." The odds of contracting food poisoning are so monumentally small that it shouldn't even be on your radar. Food safety is so stringent in the US that you'd have to WORK to get food poisoning.

I've eaten all manner of raw meats at home just to prove this point.

The media get so excited when a handful of people die or get sick from tainted spinach, and we react much like the cattle we're so afraid of contracting disease from.

So please... eat without fear... unless you play the lottery.

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I feel I should respond to this as my original post was about Kibbeh Nayyeh specifically- not about fear of eating all raw foods. Pardon my ignorance (and I don't mean that facetiously) but I have never seen or heard of eating raw, ground beef or lamb. So it produced a visceral reaction for me. That's all...

Ah, the fear mongers. Let's take a look at this rationally, shall we? 5,000 food poisoning deaths... wow... 5,000 people out of three hundred million? Over 15,000 people die each year in the US in car accidents. So think about that the next time you get in a car, "I am three times as likely to die doing this than I would be from eating." The odds of contracting food poisoning are so monumentally small that it shouldn't even be on your radar. Food safety is so stringent in the US that you'd have to WORK to get food poisoning.

I've eaten all manner of raw meats at home just to prove this point.

The media get so excited when a handful of people die or get sick from tainted spinach, and we react much like the cattle we're so afraid of contracting disease from.

So please... eat without fear... unless you play the lottery.

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Ah, the fear mongers. Let's take a look at this rationally, shall we? 5,000 food poisoning deaths... wow... 5,000 people out of three hundred million? Over 15,000 people die each year in the US in car accidents. So think about that the next time you get in a car, "I am three times as likely to die doing this than I would be from eating." The odds of contracting food poisoning are so monumentally small that it shouldn't even be on your radar. Food safety is so stringent in the US that you'd have to WORK to get food poisoning.

I've eaten all manner of raw meats at home just to prove this point.

The media get so excited when a handful of people die or get sick from tainted spinach, and we react much like the cattle we're so afraid of contracting disease from.

So please... eat without fear... unless you play the lottery.

I feel I should respond to this as my original post was about Kibbeh Nayyeh specifically- not about fear of eating all raw foods. Pardon my ignorance (and I don't mean that facetiously) but I have never seen or heard of eating raw, ground beef or lamb. So it produced a visceral reaction for me. That's all...

People I know who've come down with a case of food poisoning don't tend to speak cavalierly about puking and crapping their guts out for a day or two. At 75 million cases a year, it's reasonable to expect that it will happen to you someday. And, as long as we're making meaningless statistical comparisons, 5000 deaths per year is not insignificant, either -- it's a hundred times the number of people killed by lightning, and it's 40% more than are killed by fire or water, yet twe all have smoke alarms and life jackets, and most of us avoid tall trees and exposed mountain ridges during thunderstorms.

I like to throw a raw egg into my raw beef when having steak tartare, so I can risk e-coli and salmonella simultaneously. But a little common sense when playing with things that can wreck your day is only, you know, sensible.

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I'll throw another angle out there on this and feel free to crucify me (but please sterilize the nails first). There is a lot of evidence out there that our obsession with cleanliness is creating a vicious circle of health problems. Way back in the caveman days we were all a lot more used to eating a certain amount of... well, shit... in our every day existence. Now we wipe down every surface with anti-bacterials, keep our children in virtual plastic bubbles, and shower every day. The cleaner we make things, the more sensitive we are to one of these bugs when it does get in our systems. I'm sure I'm stating the obvious to most of you.

When was the last time you cleaned your cell phone or keyboard? I'm sure you wash your hands thoroughly after using a public restroom, but have you considered the atomized particles of filthy water that fill the room when you flush? Did you open the bathroom door with a paper towel on your way out? If so, did you open every door you enountered today with rubber gloves? Do you wash your hands thoroughly before biting your nails or picking that piece of corn out from between your teeth? Did you clean yourself and your clothes with scalding water after that commute on the packed Metro? Are you sure your dishwasher is hot enough to kill all those nasties?

Face it, you're probably exposed to more bacteria, viruses, and cooties just walking around in public for an hour than you are eating your average plate of tartare.

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I'll throw another angle out there on this and feel free to crucify me (but please sterilize the nails first). There is a lot of evidence out there that our obsession with cleanliness is creating a vicious circle of health problems. Way back in the caveman days we were all a lot more used to eating a certain amount of... well, shit... in our every day existence. Now we wipe down every surface with anti-bacterials, keep our children in virtual plastic bubbles, and shower every day. The cleaner we make things, the more sensitive we are to one of these bugs when it does get in our systems. I'm sure I'm stating the obvious to most of you.

When was the last time you cleaned your cell phone or keyboard? I'm sure you wash your hands thoroughly after using a public restroom, but have you considered the atomized particles of filthy water that fill the room when you flush? Did you open the bathroom door with a paper towel on your way out? If so, did you open every door you enountered today with rubber gloves? Do you wash your hands thoroughly before biting your nails or picking that piece of corn out from between your teeth? Did you clean yourself and your clothes with scalding water after that commute on the packed Metro? Are you sure your dishwasher is hot enough to kill all those nasties?

Face it, you're probably exposed to more bacteria, viruses, and cooties just walking around in public for an hour than you are eating your average plate of tartare.

AMEN.

For the record, I HAVE had food poisoning and as you can see I can QUITE cavalier about it (so much vomit... so much vomit EVERYWHERE... it reeked of tomatoes!). Also, whenever I grind my own meat for burgers, I taste the raw beef for quality and fat content.

Did you know that butyric acid, one of the predominant glutamatic flavor compounds in parmesan, is the same acid that gives puke its lovely lovely flavor? Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

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OK This Topic now gives me an opening to discuss [drum-roll, please] STUPID THINGS I DID WHEN I WAS YOUNG:

One evening during a TDY I was doing at a refugee camp for Boat People on Tanjug Penang [TJP], Indonesia, we decided to entertain a visiting Dr. from the CDC (the CDC came out periodically to ensure that the proper medical procedures for U.S. bound refugees were being observed by our Drs.) by going out to one of the "nice" restaurants on TJP. This establishment, called by the Expat community, the Fish Place, and known to the locals as whatever the Bhasa equivalent of 10 Kilometers is - because that's how far out of town it was - was a fishing hut built on stilts out over one of the coves on the island. The hut had a few tables for diners situated around a trap door in the middle. The trap door opened on a pen in the water formed by fish nets in which the evening's fare was swimming. The proprieter would net one of the fish after you ordered, gut it, and clean it right there on the floor and then it went outside to a propane cooker to be roasted, grilled or poached depending on your preference.

Now for the stupid part -- the only things offered as beverages were hot tea, bottled water, or beer. There was no electricity so the beer was served at the ambient temperature -- in the evening that would be roughly 90 degrees F. There was, however, a large block of ice next to the trap door, so if you demurred at the idea of drinking beer soup, you could ask that a large chunk be whacked off from the block of ice with a hammer and chisel, place the chunk in a large plastic glass and pour your beer over the ice chunk a few times to chill it down. This is what I opted to do. Just as I was raising my glass to my lips, the CDC Doc looking horrified, grabbed my wrist and said, "Son, do you know how many amoeba and other really nasty organisms are probably all over that block of ice?!" I thought about this for a second and said, "No, but I trust they are all as happy as I am about to be" and downed that beer.

I am alive today to tell this tale -- nuff said

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181250 cows died for nothing. They say most of the meat has already been eaten by school children. Before delusional senators propose frivolous bills to ban the force feeding of birds they should visit a slaughterhouse and add consistency to their stupid arguments.

Isn't it much easier to go after something that a small percentage of the population eats? :mellow: If people knew how the cattle were treated they would certainly want to eat those that are treated humanely before becoming dinner.

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So, cleaning out the fridge. Way in the back: quick-pickled ramps! Toss?

(By that, I mean, discard the contents of the jar by unscrewing the lid and turning the jar upside down over the sink, running water and disposal, etc. vs. sampling and kneeling in misery.)

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So, cleaning out the fridge. Way in the back: quick-pickled ramps! Toss?

(By that, I mean, discard the contents of the jar by unscrewing the lid and turning the jar upside down over the sink, running water and disposal, etc. vs. sampling and kneeling in misery.)

If you think they are bad, I'd pour them outside. I can't even imagine how awful your kitchen will smell if you put that down the disposal. :)

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So, cleaning out the fridge. Way in the back: quick-pickled ramps! Toss?

(By that, I mean, discard the contents of the jar by unscrewing the lid and turning the jar upside down over the sink, running water and disposal, etc. vs. sampling and kneeling in misery.)

If they were pickled in vinegar, and have been refrigerated, they might still be good. If there is visible mold, or the liquid is cloudy or slimy, skip next step and toss--I'd pour into a ziplock bag seal and discard, rather than go the dispose-all route. Step two--sniff test. Does it smell bad--fermented, funky, rotten? Toss. Look and smell ok? Pickles can keep for a LONG time, especially if they have been refrigerated. But, if you are nervous about them, just get rid of them...

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Cleaning out my freezer was a shameful process really, but it's done, I can actually see what's in it now, and I have an inventory of my meat, which I plan to start eating from oldest to newest before I buy any more. A few items I am on the fence about:

2 lb of turbot from Whole Foods purchased in November (it's $24 worth of fish so I really don't want to throw this out :D) - packaged as it came (the layer of plasticy stuff, then paper) then additionally wrapped in foil, not even heavy duty foil. :);)

Duck stock from late '08 (yes, this is embarassing but it's duck stock...) - it's in a plastic ziploc type storage container, nearly full.

Anything to be done with a mostly fat pork belly slab - it's nearly 4 lbs but it's really old at this point. I never cooked it b/c it was proportionally too much fat. Wondering if I could cook it down to have fat to cook with - maybe just chop off the outside edges to avoid any potentially freezer-burned parts?

In general, how long do you think meat can be kept in the freezer w/o it becoming freezer-burned or otherwise inedible, a year?

Thanks!

Signed,

"I will be a better labeler moving forward" :)

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I feel pretty confident cooking, but these things I do not see myself doing in fear that I may kill myself:

1.) Pickling- botulism?

2.) Sous vide cooking- salmonella, etc

3.) Making cheese- not sure

4.) Making charcuterie- good lord, who knows what could happen if you do not do it properly.

5.) Making Jam- botulism?

6.) Making sushi from scratch- attack of the parasites.

7.) Making alcohol- poisoning.

8.) Smoking fish- the kind where they hang fish to dry in smokehouses....

9.) Making jerky.

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I feel pretty confident cooking, but these things I do not see myself doing in fear that I may kill myself:

1.) Pickling- botulism?

2.) Sous vide cooking- salmonella, etc

3.) Making cheese- not sure

4.) Making charcuterie- good lord, who knows what could happen if you do not do it properly.

5.) Making Jam- botulism?

6.) Making sushi from scratch- attack of the parasites.

7.) Making alcohol- poisoning.

8.) Smoking fish- the kind where they hang fish to dry in smokehouses....

9.) Making jerky.

Botulism is an anaerobic bacteria that grows in a low-acid environment. Any food that is high in acid, like red tomatoes or vinegar pickles, or sugar and acid, like yellow peaches or plums, or fruit or berry jams, can be safely preserved with simple water-bath canning. Low-acid foods like green beans, corn, squash need to be pressure canned. Fresh cheese? Know where the milk comes from and wash your hands and utensils beforehand. Charcuterie? Fresh sausage--keep everything cold, before and after you make it. Pate and terrine are basically meat loaf. Is that scary, too? Fermented and dry-cured sausages need specific temp/humidity environments that are a challenge for home cooks. Let the pros do those. For millenia, people used salt to preserve meat and fish. Salt kills bacteria. Chill, literally and metaphorically, friend. Get some good guidebooks and follow the instructions. Know that your ingredients come from a reliable source. Have fun--enjoy the process and the product.

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Botulism is an anaerobic bacteria that grows in a low-acid environment. Any food that is high in acid, like red tomatoes or vinegar pickles, ...... can be safely preserved with simple water-bath canning.

Not quite that simple. There are high acid (red) tomatoes, and low acid (red) tomatoes. One needs to know what one is dealing with and be careful about the low acid ones.

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Botulism is an anaerobic bacteria that grows in a low-acid environment. Any food that is high in acid, like red tomatoes or vinegar pickles, or sugar and acid, like yellow peaches or plums, or fruit or berry jams, can be safely preserved with simple water-bath canning. Low-acid foods like green beans, corn, squash need to be pressure canned. Fresh cheese? Know where the milk comes from and wash your hands and utensils beforehand. Charcuterie? Fresh sausage--keep everything cold, before and after you make it. Pate and terrine are basically meat loaf. Is that scary, too? Fermented and dry-cured sausages need specific temp/humidity environments that are a challenge for home cooks. Let the pros do those. For millenia, people used salt to preserve meat and fish. Salt kills bacteria. Chill, literally and metaphorically, friend. Get some good guidebooks and follow the instructions. Know that your ingredients come from a reliable source. Have fun--enjoy the process and the product.

I promise I am chill. Just trying to have fun with the thread.

I have another one- Cooking with Bhut Jolokia Pepper. I am going to do it next next weekend. We will find out if I survive it, probably will need to chill (literally) afterwords! :)

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Mr. MV and I bought fried chicken* (hot) from Safeway prior to going to Wolftrap on Sat. night. Bought at 6:30. We ate some at 7:30-8pm. Covered and put into picnic bag. Not refrigerated.

Mr. MV balked at throwing it out (with the potato salad, which was a no-brainer). We refrigerated it by 10:30 or so when we arrived home.

Would you eat it?

FTR, Mr. MV insisted that he would eat the rest, although, suspiciously, he has not yet :)

*for fun, count how many KFC and Popeye's chicken containers you see at Wolftrap-it seems to be the "go to" meal. :D

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Mr. MV and I bought fried chicken* (hot) from Safeway prior to going to Wolftrap on Sat. night. Bought at 6:30. We ate some at 7:30-8pm. Covered and put into picnic bag. Not refrigerated.

Mr. MV balked at throwing it out (with the potato salad, which was a no-brainer). We refrigerated it by 10:30 or so when we arrived home.

Would you eat it?

FTR, Mr. MV insisted that he would eat the rest, although, suspiciously, he has not yet :)

*for fun, count how many KFC and Popeye's chicken containers you see at Wolftrap-it seems to be the "go to" meal. :D

I'd reheat it to the full temp for poultry. Wouldn't eat it cold.

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Mr. MV and I bought fried chicken* (hot) from Safeway prior to going to Wolftrap on Sat. night. Bought at 6:30. We ate some at 7:30-8pm. Covered and put into picnic bag. Not refrigerated.

Mr. MV balked at throwing it out (with the potato salad, which was a no-brainer). We refrigerated it by 10:30 or so when we arrived home.

Would you eat it?

FTR, Mr. MV insisted that he would eat the rest, although, suspiciously, he has not yet :)

*for fun, count how many KFC and Popeye's chicken containers you see at Wolftrap-it seems to be the "go to" meal. :D

To be insanely and overly safe, I usually follow the food safety guidelines set forth by the USDA when cooking for others and my kid. With that said, I would have eaten all of it, including potato salad with a nice glass of wine. That's just me. I have had much worse, especially when we made food before long road trips in college. It strengthens that immune system. Way back in the day, we also used to eat pizza that had been sitting on the counter overnight. Supposedly a big no-no.

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Bought a lb of bacon from happy free ranging pigs :( at the farmers market on Sunday. It was frozen when I bought it around 11 am, came home and totally forgot to put it in the fridge. Remembered on my dog walk the following morning, so about 22 hours later. It was of course warm. The package says it's smoked, I don't know if it was cured or not. I am thinking if it was, I can still eat it, if it wasn't, not. Thoughts?

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Bought a lb of bacon from happy free ranging pigs :) at the farmers market on Sunday. It was frozen when I bought it around 11 am, came home and totally forgot to put it in the fridge. Remembered on my dog walk the following morning, so about 22 hours later. It was of course warm. The package says it's smoked, I don't know if it was cured or not. I am thinking if it was, I can still eat it, if it wasn't, not. Thoughts?

My thinking is with all the salt, plus searing in in a pan to crisp it up-you'll be OK.

Mr. MV still wants to eat the aforementioned fried chicken, and said he'd nuke it thoroughly before eating, so thanks for everyone's input.

Re: pizza-I've eaten it the next morning in a hazy hangover fog :( Nowadays, I put it in the fridge and eat it straight out, or take the time to heat it in the oven. Microwaving does not do kind things to pizza.

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So last night I cursed the take out sushi that seemed to cause a pretty quick onset of food poisoning. It was clear my body wanted to rid something pretty quickly. I blamed the sushi, as something did seem off before I ate it but I decided to trust the restaurant that they would not sell bad tuna. Additional facts: I used my own soy sauce (low sodium). I followed sushi with a piece of chess pie I made last Thursday that was in the refrigerator.

I just noticed the soy sauce says keep refrigerated but it has been in my pantry. Was that the culprit? If not, could it have been the refrigerated chess pie? If not, should I call the restaurant? I'll never eat there again but maybe they should know. Thoughts?

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I just noticed the soy sauce says keep refrigerated but it has been in my pantry. Was that the culprit? If not, could it have been the refrigerated chess pie? If not, should I call the restaurant? I'll never eat there again but maybe they should know. Thoughts?

I do not think you need to refrigerate soy sauce. Restaurants leave it sitting on the table all day long (much like ketchup, which for some reason I do keep in my refrigerator - go figure). The pie was barely half a week old. I would call the restaurant to let them know of the possibility as a public service if for no other reason. They seem to be the likely cuprit, but you can never really tell unless you get a lab to analyze the foods.

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Thoughts?

Stomach virus or flu?

1) I'm sure this topic has been treated elsewhere on this site, but food poisoning takes some time to develop, though certainly the act of ingesting food might prompt a violent reaction were your stomach not in the best of moods at mealtime.

2) The pie should have been fine after only a few days in the fridge.

3) What dcs said. I keep open bottles on the shelf for months, or in the case of so-called "mushroom" soy sauce, years.

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Stomach virus or flu?

1) I'm sure this topic has been treated elsewhere on this site, but food poisoning takes some time to develop, though certainly the act of ingesting food might prompt a violent reaction were your stomach not in the best of moods at mealtime.

2) The pie should have been fine after only a few days in the fridge.

3) What dcs said. I keep open bottles on the shelf for months, or in the case of so-called "mushroom" soy sauce, years.

not virus or flu.... some food poisoning causes a reaction within a short period of time once the food starts to be digested. I'm fairly certain it was the sushi. Happily I'm fine now.

And yes, I heard the food safety bill and thought yeah!

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