I'll Have the Screaming Toddler, Please

[Ericandblueboy]

Diners with Children

Tom, we really enjoyed Pacci's Pizzeria this weekend! We agreed completely with your review--loved our pizza, but our panini could have used another two minutes or so in the oven because it was doughy. Anyway, we got there early Sunday and the hostess allowed us to choose our spot. We picked a table across from the patio entrance with a good view of the World Cup game. Anyway, five minutes later a couple with a very loud toddler comes into the restaurant. Despite at least 5 other open tables that could easily accommodate the 3 of them, they sit right behind us. We tried to enjoy our meal despite his incessant shrieking, but were very frustrated! I don't know why they would not have opted for another table!

Children in restaurants

The diner who had a loud child seated behind him should have spoken to the manager. Explain that you had wanted the seats near the television to watch the World Cup and that the child was loud and disturbing. It is the manager's job to cope with the problem and speak with the other family. Either the parents needs to quiet the child or the family needs to be moved.

A.Tom Sietsema writes:

I would SO not want to be a restaurant manager and have to deal with all the diners who think it's their inalienable right to do whatever they want, wherever they want, consequences be damned.

But I agree. The manager would have to be cool about it, though

I'd like some opinions about this. We're talking about casual pizza restaurants. I've avoided certain pizza restaurants in the past because I can't handle the romper room atmosphere. I never once considered telling the manager to quiet down all the howlers. As a new father, we do our best to keep our infant quiet but I can't predict when she's gonna puke or start whining. For that reason, we don't go to high end restaurants (or if we do, we go early). It would be annoying if someone tells me to move because our daughter is acting up at a pizza joint. Isn't that like telling parents at Disney World to keep their kids quiet?

[DanielK]

In a casual pizza joint, if the kid is just being loud, I think that's just part of being in a casual family friendly place.

If the kid is shrieking, where it's clearly disturbing nearby diners, I think the parents have an obligation to take the kid away from the dining room until they calm down.

[dcs]

I'd like some opinions about this. We're talking about casual pizza restaurants. I've avoided certain pizza restaurants in the past because I can't handle the romper room atmosphere. I never once considered telling the manager to quiet down all the howlers. As a new father, we do our best to keep our infant quiet but I can't predict when she's gonna puke or start whining. For that reason, we don't go to high end restaurants (or if we do, we go early). It would be annoying if someone tells me to move because our daughter is acting up at a pizza joint. Isn't that like telling parents at Disney World to keep their kids quiet?

I tend to agree; however, a considerate parent of a shrieking toddler would probably take the child outside in an effort to calm him/her down. That would give the beleaguered spouse, as well as fellow diners, a few minutes of peace.

[Sthitch]

In a casual pizza joint, if the kid is just being loud, I think that's just part of being in a casual family friendly place.

Does casual also mean basic consideration for others goes out the window? Maybe it was just the way I was raised, but when in public, even in a very casual restaurant, I was expected to comport myself in a far different manner than I did on the playground, and no my parents were not in the least bit pretentious or stuffy.

[DaRiv18]

Hey, maybe the kid's shrieking is less annoying than the World Cup buzzing. Maybe the parents thought they were doing them a favor!

Seriously, the World Cup is a major sporting event. "Basic consideration" in a pizza place with a sports event going on is a pretty low bar, IMO. Now, if the kid is uncomfortable or needs basic necessities, then obviously the parent should parent. Shrieking is not normal (assuming that we take the poster at his/her word).

[Rovers2000]

Does casual also mean basic consideration for others goes out the window? Maybe it was just the way I was raised, but when in public, even in a very casual restaurant, I was expected to comport myself in a far different manner than I did on the playground, and no my parents were not in the least bit pretentious or stuffy.

My parents brought me up in much the same way. However, the issue I take here more concerns the venue. If watching the World Cup match is of such paramount importance go to a sports bar. If you're going to a neighborhood pizza place, don't expect people (children or not) to cede to your need to watch whats on TV.

[monavano]

Hey, maybe the kid's shrieking is less annoying than the World Cup buzzing. Maybe the parents thought they were doing them a favor!

Seriously, the World Cup is a major sporting event. "Basic consideration" in a pizza place with a sports event going on is a pretty low bar, IMO. Now, if the kid is uncomfortable or needs basic necessities, then obviously the parent should parent. Shrieking is not normal (assuming that we take the poster at his/her word).

I thought the same thing.

"Excuse me folks, but could you remove your shrieking child so I can hear the mind-numbing drone that is the soundtrack of the World Cup?"

[mdt]

My parents brought me up in much the same way. However, the issue I take here more concerns the venue. If watching the World Cup match is of such paramount importance go to a sports bar. If you're going to a neighborhood pizza place, don't expect people (children or not) to cede to your need to watch whats on TV.

World Cup or not having a shrieking kid at the table next to me at any restaurant would be rather annoying. Too bad his/her parents weren't too considerate of other diners.

[leleboo]

Does casual also mean basic consideration for others goes out the window? Maybe it was just the way I was raised, but when in public, even in a very casual restaurant, I was expected to comport myself in a far different manner than I did on the playground, and no my parents were not in the least bit pretentious or stuffy.

My parents brought me up in much the same way. However, the issue I take here more concerns the venue. If watching the World Cup match is of such paramount importance go to a sports bar. If you're going to a neighborhood pizza place, don't expect people (children or not) to cede to your need to watch whats on TV.

Hey, maybe the kid's shrieking is less annoying than the World Cup buzzing. Maybe the parents thought they were doing them a favor!

Seriously, the World Cup is a major sporting event. "Basic consideration" in a pizza place with a sports event going on is a pretty low bar, IMO. Now, if the kid is uncomfortable or needs basic necessities, then obviously the parent should parent. Shrieking is not normal (assuming that we take the poster at his/her word).

I thought the same thing.

"Excuse me folks, but could you remove your shrieking child so I can hear the mind-numbing drone that is the soundtrack of the World Cup?"

I second (third? fourth?) all of those sentiments.

1. Kids have to go out to eat to learn how to behave when doing so. Casual or no -- behavior in a public place isn't the same as behavior at home (for grown-ups, too!) And if a toddler is shrieking and the parents can't stop it (World Cup or not) ... well, the way I was brought up was, that's when they stand up and carry you out. (I was taken out to eat starting at about six weeks old, almost always with my grandparents as well as parents, and usually at a frequency of about once a week when I was small, and the above happened precisely once. My father is so proud of this that he still tells the story.)

2. If anyone wants it, there's a method for tuning out the vuvuzelas. Works if your tv has an equalizer, and on a computer.

[Ericandblueboy]

World Cup or not having a shrieking kid at the table next to me at any restaurant would be rather annoying. Too bad his/her parents weren't too considerate of other diners.

If you go to Chuck E. Cheese and are annoyed by the noise, it's your own damn fault. It's my experience that many parents treat all pizza joints like they're Chuck E. Cheeses. (e.g., 2 Amys, Pie-Tanza). I suspect once Orso becomes more well known, it too would become a mad house (although the pricing may be a deterrent to hooligan parents).

[B.A.R.]

I2. If anyone wants it, there's a method for tuning out the vuvuzelas. Works if your tv has an equalizer, and on a computer.

I wondered why ESPN did not just filter out the tonal range of the noise?

[deangold]

Its my expereince that the folks who complain about kids do so regardless if the kid is just normal fussy or loud. We use the "go over and make cooing noises" when a kid is pretty fussy to try to quiet him down. That usually either works or shames the parents into taking action.

But let me tell you, telling a parent that his kid is misbehaving {hi, is there something we can get Jr?) because he is throwing a temper tantrum in the middle of the restaurant and folks outside on the sidewalk are calling 911 thinking someone is torturing an elephant in the middle of the dining room makes you as popular as the CEO of BP at Acme Oyster Bar. And we are a self describes noisy, crowded restaurant.

The funniest thing is, recently, on a not too noisy night, there was a blood curdling yell coming from upstairs. Kay ran up as there was a table with several small ones {well behaved by any reasonable standards} and she thought maybe one of then had really hurt themselves. Turned out it was an older lady who screamed to get back at the kids for being kids. She was roundly criticized by her fellow diners. We suggewsted that in the future she let us know she preferred a quiet table rathre than taking things into her own hands.

[Ericandblueboy]

Parents vs. Public Spaces

Ken Archer, who lives in Georgetown, felt the full force of anti-parent resentment when he told readers on the urban planning blog Greater Greater Washington about an incident on a D.C. Circulator bus. The driver had told Archer that he and his family would have to get off unless he folded up his son's stroller. When Archer wrote that such policies help drive young families out of the District, the response from readers was so fierce that the blog's moderator had to shut down the comment board, a rare event for a site devoted to wonky topics such as bike lanes and inclusionary zoning.

"Why do people with children always think that they should be catered to?" commented one poster. "Fold your damn giant stroller (which seem to be getting larger and larger these days) and shut up."

Tensions only escalated after Archer and other parents explained that folding a stroller can be difficult when lugging groceries. "People should think about how they're going to get their food once they have a child before they have a child," replied a commenter identified as Teo. "Maybe have your neighbor watch your kid for an hour or two. . . . Maybe move closer to a store so you can walk. . . . Maybe don't have kids."

I side with the adults (it's the parents' job to figure things out without the entire world having to accomodate them).

[mdt]

Parents vs. Public Spaces

I side with the adults (it's the parents' job to figure things out without the entire world having to accomodate them).

Unfortunately, from what I have seen, you are in the minority.

[thistle]

I'm glad that my kids are older now & approaching the point of being pleasant dining companions (despite their habit of playing games on their phones). When they were younger, we just didn't go out to eat alot-I know I don't like kids screaming around me when I'm eating, so I chose casual restaurants, took them out at the first sign of a problem, & thought about other diners (I was also a waitress in my youth, I had a low tolerance for disruptive behavior). For parents of young kids, it'll get better-just be patient.... (& learn how to cook)...

[Lola007]

It's my experience that many parents treat all pizza joints like they're Chuck E. Cheeses. (e.g., 2 Amys, Pie-Tanza). I suspect once Orso becomes more well known, it too would become a mad house (although the pricing may be a deterrent to hooligan parents).

I think you once referred to 2 Amys as romper room, which I think is a fair description of the atmosphere there. It's too bad. The thing that gets me (and this is not only about what goes on in 2 Amys) is that most parents I've seen are oblivious to the fact that their kids' behavior is disturbing other people, and if they do notice, are afraid to do anything about it. I now only get carry-out from 2Amys, but wish I could actually go there and enjoy a meal.

And I really hope Pizzeria Orso doesn't become a haven for shrieking little angels and their adoring parents. So far, I haven't heard anything to that effect. Let's keep our fingers crossed.

[monavano]

I think you once referred to 2 Amys as romper room, which I think is a fair description of the atmosphere there. It's too bad. The thing that gets me (and this is not only about what goes on in 2 Amys) is that most parents I've seen are oblivious to the fact that their kids' behavior is disturbing other people, and if they do notice, are afraid to do anything about it. I now only get carry-out from 2Amys, but wish I could actually go there and enjoy a meal.

And I really hope Pizzeria Orso doesn't become a haven for shrieking little angels and their adoring parents. So far, I haven't heard anything to that effect. Let's keep our fingers crossed.

I thought that 2 Amys has an upstairs that is more "adult-friendly"?

[qwertyy]

It seems to me that if a kid was being too loud for someone to watch a soccer game at a pizza place, then the kid was being all together too loud. We're not talking a film or a play here; it's a sporting event, which really tolerates a good deal of noise.

I can't predict when she's gonna puke

Seriously? Kids just puke at random?

Kinda happy about childlessness at the moment...

[Ericandblueboy]

Seriously? Kids just puke at random?

Reflux - maybe there are signs before the puking commences but we're pretty new at this.

[leleboo]

Seriously? Kids just puke at random?

Reflux - maybe there are signs before the puking commences but we're pretty new at this.

Some infants on an all or mostly liquid diet who are still really little also often just don't have fully closed esophageal valves -- so that "reflux" is not (always) the painful acid kind we think of, but just a natural reaction. What goes in just comes back out. Doesn't seem to bother them all that much (little consolation to the parents who get spat up on!).

Was always my favorite part of babysitting ... which is probably the best teen-pregnancy-deterrant in the world. (FWIW, I have no kids of my own, but I do still babysit ... )

[qwertyy]

Some infants on an all or mostly liquid diet who are still really little also often just don't have fully closed esophageal valves -- so that "reflux" is not (always) the painful acid kind we think of, but just a natural reaction. What goes in just comes back out. Doesn't seem to bother them all that much (little consolation to the parents who get spat up on!).

While I appreciate the reasoning, and have great sympathy for the little ones and their parents, I stand by my opinion that regular, spontaneous vomiting is an undesirable quality in a dining companion and will bask a bit more in childlessness.

[leleboo]

While I appreciate the reasoning, and have great sympathy for the little ones and their parents, I stand by my opinion that regular, spontaneous vomiting is an undesirable quality in a dining companion

I would have to agree completely! (Definitely prefer for it not to happen during my own meal when possible, that's fer dang sher.)

[Banco]

Seriously? Kids just puke at random?

I sometimes puke at random, depending on the restaurant.

[Pat]

What goes in just comes back out. Doesn't seem to bother them all that much (little consolation to the parents who get spat up on!).

My father's sister was my godmother. She never had children and was not terribly comfortable with them until they were of a certain age. I decided to spit up on her at my baptism. According to all accounts, it freaked her out. She still liked me anyway.

In fact, I'm a lot like her, and many of my youthful experiences eating out were with her. Both she and my parents (mostly separately) took me out for meals as a child. There weren't children's menus and I was applauded for liking food on the adult menus (though this was in a time of not terribly challenging menus). The only trauma I recall was getting locked inside the bathroom at the family-style Italian-American restaurant I went to with my parents many Friday nights. I believe I was 8, possibly 9. That was something, but a waitress did eventually get me out of there. The fanciest places we would go to in the 60s-70s wouldn't be considered so high-end now, so maybe it's not a good comparison. I was expected to behave, wherever we went.

I usually empathize with the children when they're out and shrieking, since I figure they wouldn't be screaming if something weren't wrong. What makes me angry is children wandering around, whose parents don't seem to know where they are and apparently don't care.

[sunshine]

Some of my best memories of childhood involve the "special" occasions when our family would go out to try different restaurants, and wherever it was, we were expected to be quiet, stay seated and eat all our food (for the sake of starving children in Africa). If we had started screaming, we would have been yanked out of our seats and taken outside or to the bathroom immediately. The same is true for our kid (except for the guilt trip about eating everything on the plate). Because pizza places are usually the most kid-friendly, we have frequented them more than others, and pizza is one of his favorite foods. He knows 2 Amy's, Pete's and Radius by name, and he is well-behaved because we're so paranoid about pissing off other diners. Teaching children to behave in social settings is a duty, as is adults learning to tolerate sharing public space with children. And by the way, on our recent trip to "we're not kid-friendly" Marvin, the noise was from all the adults, not our kid.

[Lola007]

Some of my best memories of childhood involve the "special" occasions when our family would go out to try different restaurants, and wherever it was, we were expected to be quiet, stay seated and eat all our food (for the sake of starving children in Africa). If we had started screaming, we would have been yanked out of our seats and taken outside or to the bathroom immediately. The same is true for our kid (except for the guilt trip about eating everything on the plate). Because pizza places are usually the most kid-friendly, we have frequented them more than others, and pizza is one of his favorite foods. He knows 2 Amy's, Pete's and Radius by name, and he is well-behaved because we're so paranoid about pissing off other diners. Teaching children to behave in social settings is a duty, as is adults learning to tolerate sharing public space with children. And by the way, on our recent trip to "we're not kid-friendly" Marvin, the noise was from all the adults, not our kid.

I was raised the same way you were (including the part about eating everything on our plates), and I agree that it's up to parents to teach their kids how to behave in social settings. I also think you make a good point about adults learning to tolerate sharing public space with children (and if kids are well behaved or not running around unsupervised by their parents in a restaurant dining room, I have no problem with that.)

What you said reminded me of a review of Cafe Bonaparte that I read on Urbanspoon earlier today. An out-of-towner from Chicago took her two well-behaved daughters (7 and 11) for an early dinner (or really late lunch), and according to her review, the server made a rude comment about the children. Apparently, that motivated the person to join Urbanspoon and post this review:

http://www.urbanspoon.com/u/profile/797773/Traveler.html

It's too bad.

[DaRiv18]

Maybe our family will hang out at chef tables instead of pizza places now. Everybody knows chefs are fluent in Shrieking Baby, and maybe ours can even expand their vocab.

[jiveturk21]

I don't have any children, at some point, I will, but I don't right now. I will tell you one thing though, when I do have kids, if they start to "act up" in a restaurant, I will put down the gauntlet. I don't care where we are, but there is no reason for kids to be running around like a bunch of maniacs. Doing so in a pizza place is more acceptable than elsewhere, but it still is not acceptable. Sorry, if a parent cannot get their kids to behave in public, they should find a babysitter.

[dcs]

I will tell you one thing though, when I do have kids, if they start to "act up" in a restaurant, I will put down the gauntlet.

Famous last words? You may find that children as sentient beings do not always follow adult issued instructions exactly as issued and ultimately sometimes cannot be "forced" to behave as you wish. Even the best behaved kid can sometimes experience a rare public meltdown.

[sandynva]

Some of my best memories of childhood involve the "special" occasions when our family would go out to try different restaurants, and wherever it was, we were expected to be quiet, stay seated and eat all our food (for the sake of starving children in Africa). If we had started screaming, we would have been yanked out of our seats and taken outside or to the bathroom immediately.

completely agree, with this, and the comments from earlier posters about having been expected to behave properly (and that didn't apply just in restaurants either)

another reason for making children behave occurs to me--like you, some of my special childhood memories involve nice dinners, i remember dressing up(ish), going to a place that seemed awfuly fancy to 6 yr old me, and feeling like such an adult, feeling so special to have people call me miss and to be able to order some new kind of food that i couldn't get at home.it was a really great expereince, and one that i miss now as an adult, somehow dining out doesn't seem special that way anymore. part of what made those experiences so special was that i was expected to behave properly and was, in turn, treated as a mini adult. the kids whose parents let them run amok aren't getting that same sort of experience which makes me sad. in a way by indulging their kids they're denying them a very real pleasure.

also, i wonder, when you grin and bear those times when the child is shrieking or running around or some other behavior that's clearly beyond (some noise of course is to be expected and tolerated) and the parents do nothing, are we doing the parents a disservice? i'm not a parent, but i honestly believe parents of small children develop an ability to sort of tune out the noise (probably as some sandity-protecitng evolutionary measure!), so they honestly don't notice some of it. i'd like to think that those times when their child is misbehaving and they're not doing anything, at least sometimes it's because they genuinely don't notice the misbehavior. maybe when people glare at them, etc, it's a bit of a reality check that will help them keeep their child in check? after all, letting a child misbehave serves no one, especially the child.

[Waitman]

I love a good thread like this -- particularly on this subject. It calls up the stories embedded deep in the DNA that our ancestors told around the glowing embers after a full meal -- the tribal myths that create identity and forge unity a hostile world...

How many generations have passed since our forebears began talking about the Old Ones and the discipline they enforced, how when they obeyed not the dining ritual we were cast from the firelight, stripped of their mammoth meat and left sobbing in the dark as the saber-tooths prowled...?

And swore before the tribe that their Young Ones would face the same harsh discipline that defines the tribe, timidly at first, and then joyfully, as a way of life, traditions and arts were passed from one generation to the next...?

And thundered that their way of life was threatened by The Others, with their barbaric ways and inferior traditions?

A myth that traveled from mouth to ear to mouth again until the carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen and phosphorus atoms annexed it, twisted it around itself and lodged it in some obscure backwater of our soul.

Is it true? As true as myths ever are.

Is it important? Yes -- it is through our myths that we bond and become as one against the Others.

Tell it again...

My family, of course, embraced a different kind of dining discipline. I can see it now: the boy, older, eating almost silently, knowing the rewards ahead; the younger girl struck dumb with excitement. how pleasant dinner could be!

And then, as we ordered the check I nodded and boy exploded out his chair, a true candidate for Nanny 911, galumphing and shrieking throughout the dining room. And then the girl, going from table to table rummaging through purses for large bills and prescription bottles while distressed diners signaled frantically for waiters, managers, bouncers, child protective services....

And if the girl got caught -- god was she cute. Those blue eyes and that million-dollar lisp: "I just wanted to pway dwess up wif the pwetty purse." I can't do it justice, but it was a blessing from above. When they tried to spend her to a speech therapist, we sent her to a different, less judgmental school. We ate well; the kids developed a certain feral genius; life was good.

Alas, dragons live forever, but not so girls and boys, restaurant thrills and pilfered bills make for other toys. The lisp cleared up, he got old enough to be charged, all good things come to an end.

But we ate well for years, for free. And they learned how to behave in fine dining establishments. Because that, as Willie Sutton famously said, is where the money is.

And the cherry on top? Logging in the following Wednesday and reading: "Dear Tom, last weekend we were dining Vidalia -- even better than the somewhat churlish 2.5 star review you gave it would suggest! RJ's a god! -- when the children next to us, who had seemed so well behaved all night..."