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porcupine

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I'm sure TasteDC is just referring to the Osmosis of age and wine knowledge that just happens with normal age progression. A few gray hairs I hear also helps you learn French pronunciation as well. :lol:

I particularly enjoy the doe eyed look in their eyes while ignoring my servers eager recommendations and shaking my head at them asking "Is there someone more knowledgeable on wine?" It's hilarious, and my dates always think I'm sophistimakated and funny while doing so. Good fun.

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What I meant was that the lingering taste of the wine made the subsequent food taste different, and better.  And the lingering taste of the food made the wine taste better.  Together they were something more than the sum of the parts.

This is a lovely description of what happens when wine and food are matched perfectly. It's only happened to me twice: once with a bottle at Palena (thanks to Justin) and once with a whole series of pairings at Eve (thanks to Todd.)

Knowing or not knowing anything about wine didn't help me in either case. When it's perfect, it's just self-evident.

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And if a 21 or 22 year old is your server, you can assume that they don't know much, so maybe ask if there is anyone else in the restaurant that can help you with wine choices?

I'm not sure what the Wine Director at one of America's 2005 5-Star, 5-Diamond restaurants would have to say about that.

Meet Mrs. Chantelle Grilhot, Sommelier at The Dining Room at The Ritz-Carlton, Buckhead (Atlanta). She replaced Michael McNeill last year, after impressing Philippe Buttin (Sommelier at Joel, under whom she began her tutelage) and Claude Guillaume.

You just got served.

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Seems like this is poetic license - how could you know if the wines you were served "complemented" the food in a way you "read about" if you don't know much about wine? 

I thought I liked a painting when I was a teenager, at MoMA. A Van Gough. But I'd never taken an art history class so I'm sure I couldn't have told genius from cliche, and have never trusted my judgement on this one.

I like the tulips when they come in spring. My botany training, however, is sadly lacking, so it's likely that I am misinformed.

I got laid once. I thought it was a pretty good time, but it was only like my third time, so what the hell did I know?

I remember my first really good French meal. Spectacular, it seemed. But I waited for another 15 years or so to pass judgement, until I'd really studied the matter.

It felt like true love. On the other hand, I've never checked it out with a trained and certified marital counselor, so I guess we're just muddling blindly along.

As for wine, I gave it up. I liked the stuff, but I didn't have time to take the course.

Edited by Waitman
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I thought I liked a painting when I was a teenager, at MoMA.  A Van Gough.  But I'd never taken an art history class so I'm sure I couldn't have told genius from cliche, and have never trusted my judgement on this one.

I like the Tulips when they come in spring.  My botany training, however, is sadly lacking, so it's likely that I am misinformed.

I got laid once.  I thought it was a pretty good time, but it was only like my third time, so I was likely only fooling myself.

I remember my first really good French meal. spectacular, it seemed.  But I waited for another 15 years or so to pass judgement, until I'd really studied the matter.

it felt like true love.  On the other hand, i've never checked it out with a trained and certified marital counselor, so I guess we're just muddling blindly along.

As for wine, I gave it up.  I liked the stuff, but I didn't have time to take the course.

For the last few hours, while running errands, I've been composing a rebuttal to Adler's post. You've saved me the effort. Thanks. :lol:

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Our 21 and 22 year olds seem to know what they're doing, Charlie.

I am sure there are 20 and 21 year olds who know one hell of a lot about wines. When I was 20 I worked at Wally's in West LA. Thru assiduous work, I managed to taste every California cabernet from both the 1974 and 1975 vintage. I mean I even arranged a tasting of every farking Inglenok Cask bottling (and there were something like 20 distinct cask bottlings!).

Yet I just didn't know what a wine tasted like, year by year as it evolved over say 10 or 30 years. Just not enough miles on me. I did know what wines tasted like over a 2-3 year evolution as I was collecting wines by about 18. I was pretty damn good at matching California cabs or Zins or Chards with food. I had great breadth of knowlege but little depth. Thats one thing that, unless you are born into a wine priented family, that its hard to come by by age 20 or 22.

Can a 20 or 22 year old do a great job with a wine list? Of course. Is there something more that someone with 20 or 30 years of experience can bring to the table? Yes. But only if they have the thirst for knowlege that the 20 year old just discovering the amazing world if wine. And some open mindedness.

Great wine peeople are a real find, whereever you find them, whatever their age. However if you ask me who affected me most with wine service over teh years, they were all seasoned folk with more than a bit of grey in their hair.

Thanks for this post which brought back memories of Paul at Scandia in Los Angeles who taught me what a White Burgundy was and Roberto at Fiaschetteria Toscana who always brings a little richness into my life when I have the joy of being told what to order- wine food and cheese. Maybe someday he will let me select something on my own!

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I generally avoid wines supposedly paired to the menu or paired to what I select from a menu. Why? I generally have had bad experiences with this (notable exception, Babbo, in NYC -- great!). I much prefer to select my own wine or wines from the list. Not only do I enjoy looking for 'easter eggs' but I also like to see how a wine develops over the course of several hours during a fine meal.

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I generally avoid wines supposedly paired to the menu or paired to what I select from a menu. Why? I generally have had bad experiences with this (notable exception, Babbo, in NYC -- great!). I much prefer to select my own wine or wines from the list. Not only do I enjoy looking for 'easter eggs' but I also like to see how a wine develops over the course of several hours during a fine meal.

What if you get to taste six or seven high quality wines that you never would have thought of and find one or two that you really liked that also just happened to enhance the flavor of the dish? Then what?

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I generally avoid wines supposedly paired to the menu or paired to what I select from a menu. Why? I generally have had bad experiences with this (notable exception, Babbo, in NYC -- great!). I much prefer to select my own wine or wines from the list. Not only do I enjoy looking for 'easter eggs' but I also like to see how a wine develops over the course of several hours during a fine meal.

One of the most memorable meals I've ever had was a dinner at Citronelle which was a tasting meal for six people, with wine pairings chosen by our own, distinguished Mark Slater. Each course was brilliantly paired with a full bottle of wine for the table. It is much harder when everyone at the table is eating different dishes, and course by course wine pairings must be chosen from a by-the-glass selection, often very limited.

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I have never worked in a restaurant with a full-time wine professional so maybe Mark will shoot this down as a bad idea (he mentioned being spread thin sometimes) but I have always thought places with a sommelier should be more proactive. At Komi back when Sebastian was there, I spoke with him every time I went regarding wine but don't ever remember having to ask. I know this is my own hangup but I feel pretentious saying to a waiter, "Thanks for the suggestions but is there a REAL wine professional in this place." Especially if they don't have one.

Granted Komi was a much smaller restuarant but I always thought that when a waiter dropped the wine list instead of the typical "Let me know if you have any questions" etc. they could say something along the lines of "Please let me know if you would like to speak with the sommelier regarding pairings" or whatever. While I know it might not be possible in large restaurants it seems like a visit from the sommelier or at least the offer should be one of the steps of service.

And wouldn't this boost wine sales? Someone who might not have wanted to order something due to intimidation or just didn't feel like wine might change their mind knowing that the sommelier will be personally selecting it for their meal. It also takes away that uncomfortable situation of going over the waiter's head or whatever discussed upthread. Maybe places do this already but most of the places I have been to, where I happen to know they have a full time sommelier, didn't mention it. A few weeks ago I even saw a sommelier select a wine for my waiter but it was never mentioned. I appreciate humility but if your restaurant has gone that extra step to provide better service to the customers by hiring a dedicated wine expert, let the customer know! It reminds me of the doomsday device in Dr. Strangelove, what good is it if you don't tell anyone about it??

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What if you get to taste six or seven high quality wines that you never would have thought of and find one or two that you really liked that also just happened to enhance the flavor of the dish? Then what?

Mark, I am sure I am missing out...*sometimes*. Most of the time, I am not, I think. But that is just me guessing and assuming so from my own experiences. I often worry about how the wine has been handled with these by the glass pairings to each course I am going to get. How long has the bottle been open? Long enough? Too long? I'm a wine geek, so I like to see the bottle from which I am getting the wine, which is almost *all* cases when I have opted to try wine pairings, is not the case. Most restaurants (not all) just don't do a good job of this. The other issue I have is that often the pours for the by the course pairings are just too big. My wife and I usually split a single 750ml bottle between us for a long dinner. If you add up all of the pours you would get for a multi-course meal, well, it can often be (far?) more than what would amount to a 750ml bottle.

That said, I haven't done a wine pairing at Citronelle either. It's been quite a few years since we've been there, Mark (not that we didn't enjoy our experience we loved it! But rather the overall cost of the meal/experience limits this to special occasions only).

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Mark, I am sure I am missing out...*sometimes*. Most of the time, I am not, I think. But that is just me guessing and assuming so from my own experiences. I often worry about how the wine has been handled with these by the glass pairings to each course I am going to get. How long has the bottle been open? Long enough? Too long? I'm a wine geek, so I like to see the bottle from which I am getting the wine, which is almost *all* cases when I have opted to try wine pairings, is not the case. Most restaurants (not all) just don't do a good job of this. The other issue I have is that often the pours for the by the course pairings are just too big. My wife and I usually split a single 750ml bottle between us for a long dinner. If you add up all of the pours you would get for a multi-course meal, well, it can often be (far?) more than what would amount to a 750ml bottle.

That said, I haven't done a wine pairing at Citronelle either. It's been quite a few years since we've been there, Mark (not that we didn't enjoy our experience we loved it! But rather the overall cost of the meal/experience limits this to special occasions only).

That's fair. I have those same concerns when I go to places that offer many different wines by the glass. That's why my program is much more focused and with fewer but better wines.

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To comment on Proof and the wine pairing. We hardly if ever use wine that is on our wines by the glass program, even though we serve a wide variety of interesting things. Depending on the wine and its age it will be decanted at the beginning of the evening. If not all of it is used I will try to sell a few glasses, more often than not, drink it! As for the pours, our servers hand pour two ounces with each course, presenting each bottle, I often do this, and pour into tasting glasses as to not overserve. I think we do a class job, but maybe I am biased.

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To comment on Proof and the wine pairing. We hardly if ever use wine that is on our wines by the glass program, even though we serve a wide variety of interesting things. Depending on the wine and its age it will be decanted at the beginning of the evening. If not all of it is used I will try to sell a few glasses, more often than not, drink it! As for the pours, our servers hand pour two ounces with each course, presenting each bottle, I often do this, and pour into tasting glasses as to not overserve. I think we do a class job, but maybe I am biased.

Two ounces a course? What are you, sponsored by the WTCU? ;) At that rate I'd have to have 16 courses -- anyway -- to get a decent buzz on.

(Kidding, Mark, kidding -- love the wine program and damn near had two friends drunk enough to go in on the Harlan deal on my birthday.)

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"Uncharitable" is a very charitable way of describing that petulant little rant, Mark.

Not everybody likes wine as much as I do. Many females, for example, confine themselves to one glass per meal or even half a glass.
I can't think of a single polite thing to say in response to that comment.
It pains me to see good wine being sloshed into the glasses of those who have not asked for it and may not want it and then be left standing there barely tasted when the dinner is over.
He could always lean over and ask "You gonna drink that?" then pour it into his own glass.
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"Uncharitable" is a very charitable way of describing that petulant little rant, Mark.I can't think of a single polite thing to say in response to that comment.

He could always lean over and ask "You gonna drink that?" then pour it into his own glass.

A friend wrote this to me:

"I saw Hitch being interviewed by the admittedly delectable Mariella Frostrup last weekend. He was talking about religion, being his usual slimy self - 'darling, may I call you darling?' - so she ended the interview with 'since you once said the only time you've ever prayed is for an erection, may I conclude that the easy availability of viagra is the reason you don't feel any need for it at all anymore.' Sharp sharp lady."

:lol:

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and then there would be the end of our jobs, and the idea of grandeur of the sommelier. the guest could then be paid by the staff to do their job, and they could bring their own wine list to the restaurant, rent the table out, give the ol' finger to everyone, since dining out has become such an inconvenience for them... or they could enjoy themselves!!! :lol:

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I've never met a sommelier who was offended when I said that I'd pour after the inital service. Every sommelier I've ever met was primarily interested in ensuring that I enjoyed my meal and wine and did everything they could to make sure I did.

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I have found that Sommelier is rarely the problem when it comes to quick pours, it is the waiters and waitresses that are the biggest culprit. On more than one occasion I have had my glass "freshened" by a waiter before I have even taken a sip from the last pour. This also seems to be a greater issue in restaurants that have a "team" approach to service and telling one waiter that you would like to pour your own wine is no guarantee that he is going to tell everyone else.

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I have found that Sommelier is rarely the problem when it comes to quick pours, it is the waiters and waitresses that are the biggest culprit. On more than one occasion I have had my glass "freshened" by a waiter before I have even taken a sip from the last pour. This also seems to be a greater issue in restaurants that have a "team" approach to service and telling one waiter that you would like to pour your own wine is no guarantee that he is going to tell everyone else.

Not to mention the problem that all reds are not the same. I have had to stop waiters a few times from pouring the wrong wine into a glass at the table.

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The lovely Mr. Hitchens was at "So's Your Mom" at lunch time the other day. He was there with a much younger woman and they were discussing what sandwiches to get. What prize do I win?

I was at a party with "Hitch" -- as people who are cool enough to party with Hitch call him :lol: -- not long ago. He was actually somewhat polite and charming. And he did use to be a journalist of some repute. Clearly, though, he's cashed in and is enjoying writing drivel for money and having Vanity Fair pick up the tab for his testicle waxing. He lives in the same building as a certain New York-based Maitre d'.

When I was a waiter at a formal French joint I always considered it a modest rebuke when someone poured their own wine -- a statement that I'd been paying their table insufficient attention. And, while I've had waiters clearly eager to pour our the bottle and sell a second, I think a lot of time compulsive pouring is just the result of nervous energy -- "I've come all the way over here, I suppose I should do something. I know, I'll pour the wine."

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When I was a waiter at a formal French joint I always considered it a modest rebuke when someone poured their own wine -- a statement that I'd been paying their table insufficient attention. And, while I've had waiters clearly eager to pour our the bottle and sell a second, I think a lot of time compulsive pouring is just the result of nervous energy -- "I've come all the way over here, I suppose I should do something. I know, I'll pour the wine."

I don't have a problem with a waiter pouring my wine, and if done correctly I appreciate it as being part of fine service, and I don't even have a problem with a waiter pouring wine into a glass that still has some wine in it as long as three conditions are met 1) it is the same wine, 2) it is the same bottle, and 3) they don't over-pour. Violating conditions #1 and #2 are rare, but unfortunately #3 is all too common of an occurrence.

As for why, I know that some waiters do it for the exact reason that Waitman describes, but I get the impression that others do it to be done with the bottle so that they can either sell us something else or because with the bottle empty that is one less thing they need to worry about.

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I was at a party with "Hitch" -- as people who are cool enough to party with Hitch call him :lol: -- not long ago. He was actually somewhat polite and charming. And he did use to be a journalist of some repute. Clearly, though, he's cashed in and is enjoying writing drivel for money and having Vanity Fair pick up the tab for his testicle waxing. He lives in the same building as a certain New York-based Maitre d'.

When I was a waiter at a formal French joint I always considered it a modest rebuke when someone poured their own wine -- a statement that I'd been paying their table insufficient attention. And, while I've had waiters clearly eager to pour our the bottle and sell a second, I think a lot of time compulsive pouring is just the result of nervous energy -- "I've come all the way over here, I suppose I should do something. I know, I'll pour the wine."

I agree with this 100 percent. There were many times I thought I caught eye-contact with a guest and went up to the table but when I got there nobody spoke up so instead of interupting everyone to double check, I just pretended I had come over to pour wine. Sometimes there wasn't even eye contact made. I always liked having something arbitrary to do at a table. It gives you a chance to "check up on" the table and gives the guest a chance to bring up something but doesn't require you to break the table conversation. As long as your wine service isn't clumsy or awkward it gives you presence without being overbearing, if that makes sense.
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Solution: when dining with companions who do not appreciate wine as much as you do, order a wine at such a price that you will either: 1) not think twice about an ounce or two of your companions' wine going unsipped 2) be able to afford a second bottle if you want more.

I suppose with all the places still around whose drink lists describe the wine with no more specificity than "cabernet" and "chardonnay" and serve them at kitchen or beer fridge temperatures, respectively, that it is nice for him if this is Hitch's biggest problem with wine service. :lol:

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Wine Spectator grand Award winners

Congrats to Guy Savoy, Del Posto, and of course the great Alto!! :lol: also this details the facts that many people are also not happy with their wine service, about 18000, but like 50% of them are over 50, so...not that that has anything to do with the poles, it just seems a little biased in the judgment

Excuuuuuuuuuse me, Grasshopper, is there something wrong with being over 50? ;):):o

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Excuuuuuuuuuse me, Grasshopper, is there something wrong with being over 50? ;):P:o

definitely not! you are the mold for which all the others should try to be :lol:

it seems it was the 50+ at the DMV that were interviewed, seems part of the 47% should have also had a margin related to the business, collectors, industry folk, etc. though that may give it a bias, atleast it also gives it a ratio of error towards those that can improve upon this 'better wine service' topic :)

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When paying ~$70 for a wine pairing to accompany a tasting menu at one of the top 5-10 restaurants in town, is it reasonable to expect the sommelier or at least someone else who is well-versed in the wines being poured and can tell you more than "this bordeaux is very good" or "this is a riesling from germany" to be involved in presenting it to you? And if so, what do you do about finding that you aren't getting what you expected when no one other than the nonwine expert servers asks you how everything is? The wines, by the way, met my expectations and were well-paired, but if I pony out that kind of cash, I am expecting an experience and a little knowledge as well as that is more than half the attraction of a wine pairing for me. And, the sommelier was there the whole time, just not paying any attention to us.

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