Vongerichten's Next Move

[Ericandblueboy]

This whole discussion has been prompted by a premise that is based on snobbish pretensiousness.

whatcha talkin bout willis?

You talkin' to me? Well I'm the only one here. Who the fuck do you think you're talking to?

[jparrott]

i still want to know who certifies the masters.

[Ericandblueboy]

i still want to know who certifies the masters.

Why is it relevant? Did anyone certify Beethoven? Did anyone certify Van Gogh? Who cares about the certification of your contemporaries?

[DonRocks]

And then there were the purists who booed Bob Dylan when he went electric.

This whole discussion has been prompted by a premise that is based on snobbish pretensiousness.

Bob Dylan wasn't worth booing before he went electric.

Then again, I don't like any music written after 1800.

Carry on.

[Poivrot Farci]

i still want to know who certifies the masters.

A committee of wise elders with scraggly facial hair and a milky white eye or two. It costs $4000 for the 8 day exam. Proof of mastery is in belt color or collar stripes.

A list of certified Master Chefs in the United States that should have the vulgar Mr. Andblueboy’s blessing to noodle with foodstuffs: http://mcf-usa.com/master-chefs-usa.html

When someone has mastered a cuisine, then maybe he/she could start reinterpreting it.

If he hasn't mastered the cuisine, then what business does he have to reinterpret it?

Should someone who is not a master of a cuisine reinterpret/reinvent it?

I said let those who really know their craft be at the forefront of making changes.

Mastery doesn’t means what you think it means.

Such a discount office-chair edict (and its final sheepish dilution) strips nearly every craftsman of their purpose and pride. It confuses mastery with a proven theoretical and practical understanding and highlights how little you know about western cuisine in general, particularly French and Italian whose culinary nuances vary from village to city within the same region. Odds are better of encountering a chef who has mastered solving Rubik’s cube and unhooking brasiers in the dark, both with expedience and grace, than finding any chef worth a damn who is so arrogant as to believe he is a master of any cuisine. Mastery of immeasurable excellence in subjective arts is decided at awards shows by texting viewers. Or perhaps the casual parlance of Master is being confused with the certified title.

ps. Lobster in a pot pie will invariably be hammered. Using a fragile luxury novelty is another Bobby Flay flavored attempt at reinventing a dish while overlooking or not understanding its fundamental concept nor the physical properties of heat and protein. And the cash-cow Vegas-volume celebrity chef outposts are hardly representative of their cherished first-born.

[jparrott]

Who cares about the certification of your contemporaries?

You do.

After all, it appears that, to you, only those folks are allowed into the Inner Sanctum of Reinterpretation/Reinvention.

[porcupine]

mastered solving Rubik's cube and unhooking brasiers in the dark, both with expedience and grace,

I'm sorry to be a pedant

but knowing your sense of humor, I rather suspect that you meant

Brassier: "a brassier is an item of women's underwear consisting of two cups"

rather than

brasier: "a metal pan for holding burning coals or charcoal."

Though I do like the imagery in either case.

(Thank you all for the entertainment in this thread over the past few days. )

Indeed.

[qwertyy]

I was enjoying this too, until this:

You talkin' to me? Well I'm the only one here. Who the fuck do you think you're talking to?

Ericandblueboy, could you endeavor to not get threatening and cussy whenever we get into a debate here? Much obliged.

[Waitman]

I was enjoying this too, until this:

Ericandblueboy, could you endeavor to not get threatening and cussy whenever we get into a debate here? Much obliged.

In Eric's defense, I think he was merely running movie lines, as we boys are wont to do.

[Ericandblueboy]

ps. Lobster in a pot pie will invariably be hammered. Using a fragile luxury novelty is another Bobby Flay flavored attempt at reinventing a dish while overlooking or not understanding its fundamental concept nor the physical properties of heat and protein. And the cash-cow Vegas-volume celebrity chef outposts are hardly representative of their cherished first-born.

So why is that Mina's signature dish? Isn't he just reinterpreting a classic comfort food? Tell me why Mina deserved to reinterpret the potpie and who's he foolin?

I think Mina brought many people, including those in SF, to their knees with this absurd dish. Puck brought people in LA to their knees with his ridiculous wok over-fried fish. What's the difference between a shitty outpost in Vegas and a shitty outpost in DC? Care to tell me how these creative geniuses who didn't master the underlying cuisine continue to churn out these terrible signature dishes that nevertheless impresses the shit out of Americans? More importantly, how are Americans judging an Austrian chef on his Italian cuisine or Asian cuisine? Hey, while you're at it, why don't you critique some Chinese literature written in Chinese?

BTW, it's "pretentious" and not "pretensious." I actually tried to redirect this thread to make it less personal but I'm being taken advantaged of. Next time I'll just be blunt.

Ericandblueboy, could you endeavor to not get threatening and cussy whenever we get into a debate here? Much obliged.

We? in a debate? Where's your point of view in this debate?

[Ericandblueboy]

You do.

After all, it appears that, to you, only those folks are allowed into the Inner Sanctum of Reinterpretation/Reinvention.

If you read and comprehended my posts, it's not about being certified by your contemporaries. It's not about a certification process. It's about mastering the cuisine. Reinterpreting a cuisine before you mastered it is like riding a bike before you learned to walk. Give me some examples where it actually worked. What Vong Asian dish made you cry uncle? How 'bout the Puck dish that received international recognition?

[zoramargolis]

I actually tried to redirect this thread to make it less personal but I'm being taken advantaged of. Next time I'll just be blunt.

Why, I find myself thinking about Steve Plotnicki right about now. Self-proclaimed experts of opinion and world's foremost authority types tend not to play well with others and don't win lots of friends on community discussion boards. Steve's much happier now, I suspect, since he's got his own board and can feel free to pronounce to the masses without being called on his pretentious bullshit. He can just hit delete. Something to consider. Just sayin'.

[jparrott]

If you read and comprehended my posts, it's not about being certified by your contemporaries. It's not about a certification process. It's about mastering the cuisine.

So who determines who is a master?

[treznor]

So who determines who is a master?

I fear I'm straying too far into the morass, but here goes.

My thoughts are that it is up to the individual to determine the mastery of said chef to determine if the reinterpretation is valid for you. Just my thoughts.

Unfortunately, never having had Vongrichten's or Puck's food (Wolfgang Puck Bistro/Express/Cafe not included) I have little personal experience to determine this.

[mdt]

If you read and comprehended my posts, it's not about being certified by your contemporaries. It's not about a certification process. It's about mastering the cuisine. Reinterpreting a cuisine before you mastered it is like riding a bike before you learned to walk. Give me some examples where it actually worked. What Vong Asian dish made you cry uncle? How 'bout the Puck dish that received international recognition?

So what you are saying is that if you have not mastered a specific cuisine then you should not attempt to cook any dish, or anything resembling that dish, from said cuisine?

BTW, do you have to master critiquing a cuisine before being able to comment on it? Other folks here probably want to know so that posting will not violate any specific rules.

[qwertyy]

We? in a debate? Where's your point of view in this debate?

When I said "we" I meant this board. Please excuse me; I should not have attempted to speak for everyone, especially the angry, threatening, cussy contingent.

My point of view is that I enjoyed reading this discussion because I really hadn't thought about the issue, but I didn't say anything because my life is stressful enough that I don't need to be cursed at on an food board.

I just know that I like food that tastes good. I don't frankly give a damn if it was made by a Chinese guy who's been living in a monastery for 50 years studying the chemistry of soy, or by a recent Salvadoran immigrant who just knows what tastes good. And that the lumping of "Asian" into one category is about as ludicrous as lumping "European," "African," or "American" into one. How exactly does one master "Asian" cooking? How many centuries do you think it would take to learn how to cook from Syria to Iran to Pakistan to India to Cambodia, Singapore, Indonesia, Japan, and China?

Oh, and that vitriol can spoil any good soup.

[Heather]

I find myself rooting for Eric in this, um, discussion. Is "Asian fusion" a gimmick, a way for the savvy euro-chef/salesman to add a little extra powder on top of his French foundation? La Technique with a little miso or lemongrass wows the critics again? Chinese cuisines in particular - the 4 or 8 traditions - have been perfected over at least a thousand years. That some Western dude get accolades for learning to use a wok and referring to his food as "Asian-influenced" is a little rich.

In Eric's defense, I think he was merely running movie lines, as we boys are wont to do.

"I think someone should just take this city and just, just flush it down the f*ckin' toilet."

[jparrott]

My only issue with Eric's point of view is, that the people who are the "masters" of most of the Asian cuisines are not necessarily the types of personalities who would want to reinvent/reinterpret them, and/or publicize their reinvention/reinterpretation. And without reinvention/reinterpretation AND the publicization of same, how does cuisine evolve? Sure, there are missteps along the way, but that's why we have food boards!

[ol_ironstomach]

[ I'm putting this thread on hiatus so everyone can stop spinning their wheels. Eric, I don't think the other participants have demonstrated any significant comprehension gaps here. If anything, your posts suggest that you're limited by a rigid incrementalist notion of progress through artistic intent. Or perhaps you're incensed that Vongerichten and Puck aren't Asian. In any case, this argument is done for now.

BTW, the expression is "being taken advantage of". ]

[DonRocks]

Or perhaps you're incensed that Vongerichten and Puck aren't Asian.

I wonder how he feels about The Source's Executive Sous Chef Burton Yi.

[DonRocks]

I wonder how he feels about The Source's Executive Sous Chef Burton Yi.

Or the fact that Lang Lang is nothing more than an accomplished typist - a technical virtuoso who can play scales and octaves as fast as anyone (except perhaps The Human Eraser, Evgeny Kissin (*, **) - just sayin'), but also an untethered child with no more understanding of Western music than a graduate student at George Mason.

(*) Mistake at 1:43, as an errant thumb hits a C instead of a C-sharp.

(**) Or Tom.

[zoramargolis]

(**) Or Tom.

And with only three fingers per hand!