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Etiquette, The Two-Way Street


Audrey2025

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Hi Tom:

I am wondering if you could give me your two cents in connection with how I handled a rather unpleasant recent dining experience. My husband and I were at Rustico a couple of weeks ago. It was a very busy night and the place was absolutely packed.

We were seated next to a man and a woman who were dining together. Throughout their meal, the man talked in an extremely loud voice. This didn't bother me -- at first -- but it drove my husband nuts.

When our food came, the man sitting in the table next to us started talking about culinary adventures. First he (LOUDLY) described in graphic detail a South (or Central?) American liquor that is distilled from the accumulated spit of local townswomen. He described the spit in such detail that it turned my stomach.

After the lively spit narrative, the man started talking (VERY LOUDLY) about civet coffee; civets eat coffee beans, poop them out, and gourmet coffee is harvested from the feces. He described the dung harvesting process in great detail (HE WAS PRACTICALLY SHOUTING AT THS POINT).

I'd had enough. I put my fork down and said, "Excuse me, sir, your dinner conversation is fairly revolting. I really don't care if you talk about spit liquor or civet coffee but you are talking so loudly that I can barely keep my food down. Please, either keep your voice down or stop talking about this stuff."

The man seemed duly chastened, but I'd lost my appetite and my husband and I left Rustico a few minues later.

Did I handle this situation correctly? I understand that dining out requires tolerance and thick skin. I spoke to the diner directly because I didn't want to make a big show of asking the server for a new table when we'd already commenced eating. I didn't seek out the manager and complain because it wasn't the restaurant's fault.

I keep thinking that I may have ruined some poor guy's blind date (although he probably wasn't a keeper if he thought spit and poo were appropriate dinner conversation).

What would you have done?

Tom Sietsema: Too bad your meal was disrupted, but I applaud your approach in this situation. No one needs to listen to that kind of conversation in a restaurant. Sometimes people need to be called on their "stuff" and I think you managed to do that in a civil manner.

Who knows? You may have inadvertently saved the night for his companion, too.

Chatters, what say you?

I didn't know there are verboten topics at dinner. I don't think I would appreciate someone telling me what I can or cannot discuss at dinner. Telling someone they're too loud is one thing, but telling them that their discussion is revolting?

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I'd had enough. I put my fork down and said, "Excuse me, sir, your dinner conversation is fairly revolting. I really don't care if you talk about spit liquor or civet coffee but you are talking so loudly that I can barely keep my food down. Please, either keep your voice down or stop talking about this stuff."

I didn't know there are verboten topics at dinner. I don't think I would appreciate someone telling me what I can or cannot discuss at dinner. Telling someone they're too loud is one thing, but telling them that their discussion is revolting?

I don't see the problem here. Assuming he/she is reporting what he/she said accurately, the diner says (1) talk about what you want if you must, but (2) please keep it down. Mole hill becomes mountain.

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I don't see the problem here. Assuming they are reporting what he/she said accurately, the diner says (1) talk about what you want if you must, but (2) please keep it down. Mole hill becomes mountain.

So it's okay to tell someone you think their topic of conversation is revolting? What if I think someone's topic of conversation is stupid? Also, the poster never explained why the other person is loud, perhaps because the restaurant is loud and one must be loud to be heard?

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So it's okay to tell someone you think their topic of conversation is revolting? What if I think someone's topic of conversation is stupid? Also, the poster never explained why the other person is loud, perhaps because the restaurant is loud and one must be loud to be heard?

Sure, if the loud diner is allowed to talk about whatever they want, why wouldn't the pissed off diner be allowed to tell them they think their conversation is revolting? As hungryprof pointed out, the person said I don't care what you talk about just don't do it so loudly..

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Sure, if the loud diner is allowed to talk about whatever they want, why wouldn't the pissed off diner be allowed to tell them they think their conversation is revolting? As hungryprof pointed out, the person said I don't care what you talk about just don't do it so loudly..

So you don't mind if I tell you that your conversations are stupid if I were to overhear it? That if one overhears a conversation, one ought to interject their own personal opinion?

P.S. Please don't get offended personally. I'm not saying you're stupid or your conversations are stupid. I'm just using an extreme example.

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So it's okay to tell someone you think their topic of conversation is revolting? What if I think someone's topic of conversation is stupid? Also, the poster never explained why the other person is loud, perhaps because the restaurant is loud and one must be loud to be heard?

Yes. If I had my kids out at a restaurant and somebody at the table next to us was swearing loudly and profusely, would it be inappropriate for me to say something?

As for your second point, the implication of the diner's post to Sietsema is that this diner's volume was unnecessary in whatever restaurant it was. Neither you nor I can judge whether that was the case given the available information.

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So you don't mind if I tell you that your conversations are stupid if I were to overhear it? That if one overhears a conversation, one ought to interject their own personal opinion?

If I was talking very loudly and you said that to me, I'd probably have to admit to myself that I was in the wrong, but yea i'd probably also think you were an ass. As to your second sentence, that's not at all what was going on in this situation.

P.S. not offended at all, don't take the "ass" comment to heart either.

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So you don't mind if I tell you that your conversations are stupid if I were to overhear it? That if one overhears a conversation, one ought to interject their own personal opinion?

P.S. Please don't get offended personally. I'm not saying you're stupid or your conversations are stupid. I'm just using an extreme example.

You're also changing the context. It's not simply a matter of "overhearing." It's a matter of a diner apparently speaking at an unnecessarily loud level.

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So you don't mind if I tell you that your conversations are stupid if I were to overhear it? That if one overhears a conversation, one ought to interject their own person opinion?

I think we're somehow looking for a blanket rule to apply to what is a highly subjective situation.

This probably isn't a realm for "yes/no" criteria.

Just a reasonable person standard.

Which is going to be subjective.

The general rule of thumb is "have a good time, and don't reduce another person's ability to have their good time".

But of course that will have exceptions, too.

Reducing such scenarios to black/white, always right/always wrong transactions is a recipe for...something not tasty.

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Just a reasonable person standard.

Which is going to be subjective.

The general rule of thumb is "have a good time, and don't reduce another person's ability to have their good time".

That's what I'm tryiing to ascertain given these facts, i.e., what is reasonable and would not ruin someone else's good time. There are two different issues. One is talking too loudly at a restaurant - the response to that should be a polite request to lower the volume. I'm only concerned about the other issue - one's gratuitous opinion about someone else's conversation. Is it reasonable to offer your opinion about their topic of conversation? What does that accomplish anyway? Telling others their conversation is revolting is likely to impinge on their ability to have a good time, no?

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Just a reasonable person standard. . . .Which is going to be subjective.

A "reasonable person standard" is, by definition, NOT subjective. It is an objective assessment of how the hypothetical "reasonable person" would or should act in a given situation. It is the correct standard. In this context, if most people wouldn't have been offended by the poop and spit conversation, the person overhearing it was wrong to call the guy out. And, regardless, the guy stopped and the person nonetheless left Rustico because he or she was so upset. That betrays a certain hypersensitivity that is the antithesis of the "reasonable person."

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In any social situation, people have a certain obligation to take others' sensitivities into account, and a certain right to to speak out if one's sensitivities are offended. This is balanced by an obligation to tolerance. A discussion about Wombat-shit coffee wouldn't offend me, but I wouldn't discuss it with my mother at the next table. Discussing, say, your recent autopsy of a badly burned corpse is out of line, regardless of the volume. Intellectual content is not in play -- you may not shush someone for discussing America's next top model, how wonderful/awful the Tea Party Movement is, or the fact that God is, indeed Episcopalian.

The relative unappetizing-ness of the discussion is the appropriate measure,

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I was at Terroir a couple of summers ago and my server was wearing an official Terroir t-shirt with the words Pedro F---ing* Ximenez on it. It tried to buy one as a present for Tom Brown but they were sold out. Too bad.

*Except it was spelled out. I can't remember what the profanity rules are on this board. I'm sure someone will inform me in short order.

"Your search for the term fuck returned 122 results"

We can do better, people.

Ways you can help:

*Change your sig file (one tiny word, and every post is a winner!)

*Don't say "quite", say "fucking" (it was quite fucking good)

*ALL CAPS FUCK: The new triple space

And back to our regularly scheduled topic...the Terroir Wine Bar menu reinforced my hope that the coolest people on the planet are still out there doing exceptionally amusing things. Outstandingly fun read, many thanks for the tip.

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Not to mention that the 7 words that you can't say on TV are the 2nd quickest way to get access denied by firewalls.

Which is right up there with the thread that shows up on Donrockwell.com if you aren't logged in... which I'm pretty sure is why I can't access the site from some of the buildings I work in :(

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Harking back to the discussion from a few months back, I recently had the (dis)pleasure of being seating near a foul-mouthed loudmouth at one of our area's finer dining establishments. While it didn't ruin my meal, I did find it annoying that I had to hear his profanity-laced conversation (monologue might be more accurate) because of the volume at which he was conducting it (and I wasn't eavesdropping - it was impossible not to hear him). Based on some of his other actions, he seemed like someone who wants to draw attention to himself. Maybe the two chickies sitting with him were impressed, but I thought his behavior was more appropriate for a sports bar or a loud 'power meal' dining room. I'm no prude about language (and can cuss a blue streak when I feel like it), but I am a firm believer in the right time and right place for everything.

And a note to the young couple at another nearby table who were celebrating an anniversary: The potential for long-term success of your relationship might be significantly increased if you put your g*#dn phones away while you're out to dinner together, particularly a 'special' dinner. I don't know, maybe you could try talking to each other... Not to mention the note on the menu stating that the use of cell phones isn't permitted or the fact that the glowing screens might be a little irritating to your neighbors.

/gripefest over. It was just one of those "l'enfer, c'est les autres" moments.

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And a note to the young couple at another nearby table who were celebrating an anniversary: The potential for long-term success of your relationship might be significantly increased if you put your g*#dn phones away while you're out to dinner together, particularly a 'special' dinner. I don't know, maybe you could try talking to each other... Not to mention the note on the menu stating that the use of cell phones isn't permitted or the fact that the glowing screens might be a little irritating to your neighbors.

Tables like this make me want to hand them both business cards and see who calls first...

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How is it not standard practice, when a restaurant advertises a special event, to specify whether tax and gratuity is included?

In the last week I have gotten email invites to three seated events that I was interested in (plenty more that I wasn't) and none of them mentioned whether or not the ticket price included tax and gratuity. Since this can add 25-30% to the cost of the ticket, it's not an inconsequential amount of money.

Get with the program, people. Because my default action if the info isn't there is not to call the restaurant and ask - my default action is to delete the email.

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A question for people in the restaurant biz; it will seem either cynical or naive:

Do you delay firing food orders to make customers order more drinks? For example, I usually eat alone at the bar. I order a cocktail, then straightaway or shortly thereafter my food. I finish my drink, then after a time realize the food is delayed. Am I being kept waiting in the hope that the lull will make me order another drink? I don't yet look like a complete lush so most places would have no idea that this strategy would usually work with me, but I'd appreciate your insight nonetheless.

As Algernon would say, I ask merely for information.

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I would always assume it doesn't include tax, and I wouldn't expect the restaurant or any other business to include tax in an advertised price.

This is a good point, actually.

A question for people in the restaurant biz; it will seem either cynical or naive:

Do you delay firing food orders to make customers order more drinks? For example, I usually eat alone at the bar. I order a cocktail, then straightaway or shortly thereafter my food. I finish my drink, then after a time realize the food is delayed. Am I being kept waiting in the hope that the lull will make me order another drink? I don't yet look like a complete lush so most places would have no idea that this strategy would usually work with me, but I'd appreciate your insight nonetheless.

As Algernon would say, I ask merely for information.

This, on the other hand, is futile - no restaurateur, even if it was true, would admit to this in a public forum, so I wouldn't expect a response. I don't think you'd see anything like this unless 1) you were in a tourist trap in a place like Venice, or 2) you had a rogue bartender.

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This, on the other hand, is futile - no restaurateur, even if it was true, would admit to this in a public forum, so I wouldn't expect a response. I don't think you'd see anything like this unless 1) you were in a tourist trap in a place like Venice, or 2) you had a rogue bartender.

What's to prevent an insider from denying this practice or confirming your view that it's rare? I'm more skeptical about this than you are, admittedly based on perceptions and not facts, hence my query.

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