Etiquette, The Two-Way Street

[DameEdna]

I disagree. Part of being in the service business is dealing with assholes. Most of the time you have to suffer them with a smile. Sometimes you get to bitch slap them. But in most cases, it's best just to solve the problem and then let it go.

When I was a restaurant server, years ago, I didn't learn much. But this stuck with me: don't count your tips until after closing. And: If a customer is an a-hole, that is his problem; if you carry a newly acquired bad attitude over to your next customer, its going to be a long night.

[bilrus]

Perhaps the increased prickliness on the part of restaurateurs is a response to the general decline in manners that people seem to be talking about these days.

It could also be a reponse to the increased amount of discourse and criticisms of the restaurants themselves on sites like this and eG and others.

[Barbara]

It could also be a reponse to the increased amount of discourse and criticisms of the restaurants themselves on sites like this and eG and others.

It certainly isn't limited to discussions of restaurants. Maybe this a "chicken or egg" issue; i.e, society was becoming less courteous when along came the Internet with its wholesale anonymity, allowing people to be far ruder, or more blunt, than they would be if they were easily identified. Or, maybe not.

[Mrs. B]

Charles (Waitman) cross-dressing as Stephanie again. Sorry. Mrs. B would never call Nadya a crank.

It could also be a reponse to the increased amount of discourse and criticisms of the restaurants themselves on sites like this and eG and others.

Naaaah. I'm the crankiest of critics but I still try to be polite when I go out. I'd say sites are a healthy outlet. And, antbody who spends any time on one of these, is sure to pick up on how much better restaurant staff/owners respond to polite people.

Especially cranks like Nadya and Dean.

Edited December 6, 2005 by Mrs. B

[deangold]

I htink that as Mark and others pointed out, my mistake was in using this forum for venting. When I wrote the original I was shaking with anger at the situation, not th customers. This was the first time in 11 years in the restaurnat business that I have actually "thrown" somebody out. But in any case, I should not have posted.

That said, as an owner of a restaurant, and as a manager of retail and restaurants for 13 of the last 20 years, I have always stived to bend over backwards for my customers. The customers in question in the no merlot incident are a perfect exapmle. The waiter was upset but I got involved because it was obvious to me that they were expecting a different kind of experience than we offer. The wait took this personally, something that many a waiter does. I didn't. I diffused the situation by giving theem merlot on the house, figuring out how to make them something off the menu etc. The wait learned a valuable lesson... that was my point. The no lines comment was a mere aside, not a qualification. They were within their right as customers to want what they wanted. By the end of the night, tey were happy with what we offered. As to the waiter, she now feels empowered that she was part of turning the table around from upset to happy. She is a better waiter for having learned the lesson.

Since I have opened Dino, I have given away hundreds of dishes, bottle of wine and gift cards to customers who were upset. I have comped the entire tiocket somewhere between 5 and 10 times. Were these customers right and us wrong? No. The customers were unhappy. That is all. They came in expecting one this and did not get it. Their expectations may not have been what we are trying to deliver, but the fact is that they are in my restaurant and unhappy and I need to try to do something to make them happy because that is what is right.

There are some instances where the waiter does not get it, thinking that if I give an upset customer something "for free" or "for complaining" that means that the waiter or the restaurant is wrong. That is not the case. The customer is getting something because they are unhappy and it is our job to make them happy. My waiters now will come to me immediately when a customer is upset rather than try to handle it themselves just because they know how often we actually make friends of people who start out upset.

Having said that, I do not feel good about the situation last Saturday. I failed in that I could not find a way to diffuse that situation before it dvolved into a spot where I could see no other choice but to refuse service. But I should have kept my feeling to myself. As those of you who know me know, I am very opinionated. FOr better or worse. This definitely was "for worse".

Edited December 6, 2005 by deangold

[Barbara]

I htink that as Mark and others pointed out, my mistake was in using this forum for venting.  When I wrote the original I was shaking with anger at the situation, not th customers. This was the first time in 11 years in the restaurnat business that I have actually "thrown" somebody out.  But in any case, I should not have posted. 

Now see, I disagreed with Mark previously and still do. Look at the discussion which ensued from your posting and the lessons many of us have learned. I think those people COULD NOT have been satisfied, no matter what you might have done. They proved that by their behavior. The need to vent is understood by all of us. We all have situations, whether at work or elsewhere, which involve inexplicable, illogical, or simply uncivilized actions. What better outlet than to vent to sympathetic people who can't do much more than offer you support and want you to succeed?

[Mark Slater]

I htink that as Mark and others pointed out, my mistake was in using this forum for venting.  When I wrote the original I was shaking with anger at the situation, not th customers. This was the first time in 11 years in the restaurnat business that I have actually "thrown" somebody out.  But in any case, I should not have posted. 

Dean,

This is why they invented gin.

[deangold]

Dean,

This is why they invented gin. 

Make mine a Hangar One Kaffir Lime Martini

[Jarad Slipp]

Make mine a Hangar One Kaffir Lime Martini 

Erh, that's vodka.

[deangold]

Erh, that's vodka.

Yes. and a damn good one indeed!

[Mrs. B]

We had a "famous face" call for a last minute reservation.  We were able to accomodate them not because they were famous (in fact they called not using their famous name), but because there were these nice sounding people on the phone and they were asking if they could be squeezed in.  We said yes and discovered that they were celebrities only on arrival.  They were a blast.  They let me explain the menu, help them chose a wine (nothing expensive, but a real gem), help them order.  They were a fun group in the restaurant and wound up buying Dino tee shirts.  I wish I had hundreds more customers like them. not because they are famous, but because they are the kind of people I want in my restaurant.  People I can share my passion for food with. 

From today's Washington Post:

"Hey, Isn't That . . .

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

. . . Jenna and Barbara Bush dining at Dino in Cleveland Park Saturday night? The party of six (three guys, three girls) drank Dolcetto wine and shared salumi, cheese and pasta at the family-style restaurant-- and the twins each bought a Dino T-shirt: Jenna the $10 gold tee with Nicky the Venetian lion logo on the chest; Barbara the $15 chocolate limited-edition "Lion on Your Belly" version.

[crackers]

DCMark  Today, 05:18 PM 

Coffee shops are fine but if you have to check your email at a bar or restaurant, why not paint that big L on your head?

If solo diners enjoy sitting at a bar or at a table at a casual restaurant and read a book or newspaper, or bring a pad of paper and write a letter or catch up on other work, is that loser behavior? If not, what's so wrong with doing it quietly on a laptop?

[Barbara]

If solo diners enjoy sitting at a bar or at a table at a casual restaurant and read a book or newspaper, or bring a pad of paper and write a letter or catch up on other work, is that loser behavior?  If not, what's so wrong with doing it quietly on a laptop?

Not a damn thing.

[DC in DC]

If solo diners enjoy sitting at a bar or at a table at a casual restaurant and read a book or newspaper, or bring a pad of paper and write a letter or catch up on other work, is that loser behavior?  If not, what's so wrong with doing it quietly on a laptop?

I don't know about loser behavior per se, but I would think dragging a laptop onto a bar could be somewhat cumbersome. They also take up more space than a newspaper, pad of paper, etc. so it could get awkward when your food comes or when the bar gets crowded.

I also find the sound of someone madly typing away to be incredibly annoying. Your keyboard is louder than you think!

[shogun]

Breadline

[hillvalley]

I don't know about loser behavior per se, but I would think dragging a laptop onto a bar could be somewhat cumbersome.  They also take up more space than a newspaper, pad of paper, etc. so it could get awkward when your food comes or when the bar gets crowded.

I also find the sound of someone madly typing away to be incredibly annoying.  Your keyboard is louder than you think!

I spent last week writing a rediculous amount of reports. At one point the only way I could get through it was finding someplace besides school or my apartment to work. Solution: local coffee house/bar.

Sure I checked my email but I needed access to the Internet to get some of the information I needed on my students. This was the deciding factor when I chose my destination.

As for the clicking, yes, it can get annoying. But the music overhead and the chattering that surrounds me is covering most of it. And my clicking is better than the cheap cigar smoke that is floating around the bar where I am typing this post.

[Waitman]

I'm not sure how to balance the space needs of a laptop and a plate of food while sitting at a bar. The clicking is irrelevant.

The loser thing? I'd suggest that, above a workspace/java type establishment, anything that makes it look as though your life is more devoted to checking e-mail than actually enjoying your meal could project a small "l" loser perception -- I'm such a wonk that I can't appreciate the place I'm in. There's also the unfortunate "look how important I am" vibe that ostentatious computer people can project. It's like returning a bunch of cell phone calls.

If you must check mail, look annoyed about it, and look relieved when the steamed mussels arrive and force you to close up the computer.

If you care.

Edited December 13, 2005 by Waitman

[DCMark]

Not to offend anyone, but I did NOT mean a coffee house or similar establishment.

I just think workig at a bar or real restaurant is both rude to the others and lets of an air of annoyance. Just my opinion. Its like cell phones...when did everyone's work business have to be done in public spaces? When I have work to do, I spend hours (often past midnight) at my desk.

Kudos to those who have the discipline to work at a bar. I just can't

Edited December 13, 2005 by DCMark

[Jacques Gastreaux]

Not to offend anyone, but I did NOT mean a coffee house or similar establishment.

I just think workig at a bar or real restaurant is both rude to the others and lets of an air of annoyance.  Just my opinion.  Its like cell phones...when did everyone's work business have to be done in public spaces?  When I have work to do, I spend hours (often past midnight) at my desk. 

Kudos to those who have the discipline to work at a bar.  I just can't

Where does using a Blackberry fit into this spectrum?

[Waitman]

Where does using a Blackberry fit into this spectrum?

Blackberries should only be used to locate drinking buddies who have gone missing.

[lackadaisi]

Blackberries should only be used to locate drinking buddies who have gone missing.

I wish that was always an option. Some of us lack the freedom to rid ourselves of them. If I were making the rules, that would not be the case, but alas... Edited December 13, 2005 by lackadaisi

[bonaire]

Blackberries should only be used to locate drinking buddies who have gone missing.

Oh, that's not true. Didn't anyone read "A Blackberry Throbs and a Wonk Has a Date" from the NY Times sometime last year? Here in DC, at least, it has "other" uses too...

And by "other", I mean to find a great dinner partner of course <---- trying to stay on topic.

[Michael Landrum]

Not to offend anyone, but I did NOT mean a coffee house or similar establishment.

I just think workig at a bar or real restaurant is both rude to the others and lets of an air of annoyance.  Just my opinion.  Its like cell phones...when did everyone's work business have to be done in public spaces?  When I have work to do, I spend hours (often past midnight) at my desk. 

Kudos to those who have the discipline to work at a bar.  I just can't

One aspect of this question which is never addressed: The use of cell phones, Blackberries iPods and laptops in restaurants is inherently extremely rude to and dismissive of those who are attempting to attend to your needs--those whose job it is to actually work in a restaurant. Not only rude, but with a deleterious and time-draining effect on service and kitchen timing which drags down the experience and atmosphere for all.

I wonder what the response would be if I showed up at your office and to eat my lunch? Or if I brought lunch to my next doctor's appointment refused to leave until I had polished off the last of my Little Debbies?

[deangold]

When in Roma a few years back, we went to Agata e Romeo. First off we had to let them know we were referred by Massimo, one of my wine salesmen in LA before they would take our reservation. Our cabbie assured us there was no restaurant at the address we gave him. There was no sign, just a number plaque with the name "Agata e Romeo" inscribed on the bronze.

When we arrived, the door was locked and only opened after we identified ourselves and they confirmed that we had a reservation. Upon entry, we were asked if we had a cell phone and were shown the cupboard that all cell phones were deposited into before the diners would be sat.

You can get away with a little more demandingness of your diners if you have a worldwide reputation and only have 7 tables, but I sometimes wish all restaurants could do this. I mean aside from a Doctor, who really needs to be available at all times?

By the way, the meal was superb (except for the pedestrain cheese tray) in the Nuova Cucina style.

[Jacques Gastreaux]

I mean aside from a Doctor, who really needs to be available at all times?

There is a profession that is older than medicine.

[Waitman]

I wish that was always an option.  Some of us lack the freedom to rid ourselves of them.  If I were making the rules, that would not be the case, but alas...

i promise that I am being utterly facetious, in a way that only one stapled to his Blackberry himself can be.

I once used a blackberry to send myself notes on a zillion-course meal -- accompanied by a zillion wines -- so I could write it up later. Amazing how small those little "keys" get after about 90 minutes into a dinner like that.

[MelGold]

Don't allow your 3-year-old to play the pennywhistle in the dining room for all to hear during brunch...it attracts dogs from the neighborhood!

[Nadya]

Wish to open an eighth circle of restaurant hell serving nothing but overdone burgers and send a barge full of the following specimens:

- People who seat themselves. Or people who move to a table they like better without asking permission. Would you like to wait on yourself as well?

- People who charge into the room without saying hello or telling me what they plan to do. "Oh, I'm just meeting a friend," thus necessitating a brief sprint after them to take their coat and hand them the menu.

- People who refuse to check their strollers and park them near the table, effectively blocking service to nearby tables. "No...really...would you LIKE me to check that for you?" is translated as "give it up, momsie."

[B.A.R.]

When I was the maitre d' of a restaurant several years ago, an obnoxious couple walked right by the front desk (I was on the phone, and tried to make eye contact), meandered through the restaurant, and seated themselves at one of the better tables. I followed them discreetely during their journey, and then informed every member of the staff to completely ignore them.

About 15 minutes later, the lady approached, the front desk, fuming. "No one has even said a word to us for the past 15 minutes".

Me: I am so sorry madam.You don't look familiar to me. Allow me to follow you back to your table and I will fix the problem.

When we got back to the table, I looked at them quizzically.

Me: I am so embarrassed. I don't even remember seating you. What was the name of your reservation?

Name was offered.

Me: That name doesn't sound familiar to me, I'll be right back.

I came back a few minutes later.

Me: I am horribly embarrassed by this situation. It appears that I don't have your reservation noted and I know I did not seat you. How did you get to this table?

Miscreants: We just walked in and sat down. There was no sign that said "Please Wait to be Seated"

Seriously. That's what they said.

Me: No. We do not have a sign. Most of our guests wait at the desk if no one happens to be available. I apologize for this, but we are completely booked and you are going to have to leave.

And out they went, meekly.

[Jacques Gastreaux]

B.A.R., are you in any way related to Nadya?

[shogun]

- People who charge into the room without saying hello or telling me what they plan to do. "Oh, I'm just meeting a friend," thus necessitating a brief sprint after them to take their coat and hand them the menu.

Does this count if you're just drinking/eating at the bar? If so, I take my overdone burgers with mustard.

[B.A.R.]

B.A.R., are you in any way related to Nadya?

No, but I have seen her nekkid picture!

As an aside, the restaurant was actually full that night, so I didn't ask them to leave just because I felt like being nasty.

[Jacques Gastreaux]

No, but I have seen her nekkid picture!

As an aside, the restaurant was actually full that night, so I didn't ask them to leave just because I felt like being nasty.

But you are not denying that you did feel like being nasty.

[B.A.R.]

Not at all. Ignoring them was my nasty intention. Realizing they actually didn't have a reservation and that I needed their table back: priceless.

Edited December 15, 2005 by B.A.R.

[apicius]

We unfortunately live in a world were people have less and less manners.

It is not too much a problem to have people showing up without a reservation, it is a bigger one to have people making reservations and not showing up!!!!

In my restaurant we can estimate at 15% the number of No Show!!!!

It is a lot!

If everybody would show up no restaurant would overbook!The service would go smoothly and it would be a win-win situation!

One of the most common "bad manner" is the "large table syndrome", it happens every week!

Let's take a table of eight people at 7pm; the first couple arrive at 7pm, the next one at 7.05 then we wait for the 3rd one around 7.30pm, usually the last one had a problem of either car or baby sitter and arrived at 8pm.

They made their friends waiting for them for one hour!!!!

It why in most restaruant with a bar they seat you only when the table is complete!

I cantell you more about the bad behavior of customers but it is a two way street and sometimes we have to control the bad behavior of our staff!

[Nadya]

Does this count if you're just drinking/eating at the bar?  If so, I take my overdone burgers with mustard.

No, baby, it does not. Bar seats are first come, first serve, so everyone's entitled. It's the dining room that must be tirelessly monitored against intrusions.

[Nadya]

B.A.R., are you in any way related to Nadya?

You say this...yet I bet a smoked pig bottom you would never do any of the things that get my thong in a twist.

[qwertyy]

When is it okay to monopolize a table?

Last night at Sette, after a dinner of odd, not entirely competent service, my dining companion and I sat for at least 20 minutes after finishing eating with our plates in front of us. The busser finally took them away, but then the waiter didn't return to us for another 15 minutes. By that point, we'd gotten absorbed in a new conversation, so we each ordered another glass of wine. From that point on, every waiter in the place--and the two hosts--just HOVERED over our table, obviously and impatiently awaiting our departure so they could turn the table. The bar was packed, so paying and moving wasn't an option.

As a rule I don't do this--certainly not in a busy restaurant--but I gotta admit, I took some pleasure in lingering over our wine for another 25 minutes (which, please note, was still 10 minutes less time than we had sat there with empty glasses and no attention).

Am I a cad?

[Oh, the food: The tomato bread salad was oily and not salted, but the quality of the tomatoes was surprisingly good for this time of year. The pancetta and arugula pizza was nice--the crust was very good. But for the life of me I'll never figure out how to eat a pizza that comes to you sliced, but with a veritable bushel of fresh greens mounded on the top...]

Edited December 23, 2005 by Connave

[DonRocks]

When is it okay to monopolize a table?

When you're George and Charles Parker?

Am I a cad?

Nope. (Was it Sette Osteria or Sette Bello?)

[qwertyy]

Nope.  (Was it Sette Osteria or Sette Bello?)

Thanks, Don! (Actually, I don't know! It was the one in Dupont.)

[B.A.R.]

Mitigating factor - You ordered more wine. No harm, no foul.

[bookluvingbabe]

Oddity of the evening at Palena--nicely dressed woman hovering in the hallway with the small booths. Next thing I hear is the woman telling Kelly that there are 3 people but they are skinny and will be fine in the booth made for 2 people. It sounded like she must have sat down because I next heard the staff suggesting that it would be a nicer experience for her if she allowed them to clear the table from the previous guests before getting settled.

Sure enough just as we were leaving, they squeezed 3 people into that booth, including a chair by the side, partially blocking the hallway into the dining room, which was at least partially full as the plates kept flowing back there...

You can't wait a few minutes for the staff to get you seated? Very strange indeed....

[B.A.R.]

In order to be rude, one must first be stupid.

[Dental_FlossTycoon]

In order to be rude, one must first be stupid.

I would have to respectfully disagree with you on that one.

Being pushy, complaining and ignoring people is actually rewarded at all customer service locations. A restaurant is the perfect example of this working.

Examples:

1. Alpha male with entourage in business suits come in saying they know the owner..mngr etc. Gets seated right away (in place of anothers reservation) because they look like the expense account types and will probably drop huge coinage.

2. Whining frugal complainer mom'esque complains about a small detail to the manager in order to get a discount on their meal. Just so you don't hear from her again she gets a free something, or discounted such and such.

3. Sitting down at an empty table behind the back of the host/hostess and receiving prompt service from a waitress who brings appetizers and drinks immediately at the time said host/hostess notices they're not supposed to be there. Host/hostess waives it off and makes other arrangements.

These things all happen, and most restaurants let them happen. This encourages people to keep doing it. It works!

A host or hostess or manager or owner that is guilty of any of these things facilitate it happening again. I know there are situations that the service was not up to par and would warrant a discount on a sub-par dish, but I see it far too often for silly reasons.

[Ferhat Yalcin]

Examples:

because they look like the expense account types and will probably drop huge coinage.

I respectfully disagree on that at leats to my side. Those expense account people usually spend less money than the usual they spend. I know it shouldnt be that way but thats what I`ve been seeing.

[deangold]

Have we talked about no shows? No shows for large parties? What's up with that? Last night we had a no show for a party of 9. They had called the day before to enlarge their party from 8 to 9 so its not like they didn't know what restaurant they were going to or something. Their waiter lost about 1/4 his income for the night. We turned away another party of 6 because we didn't have the table.

[Mark Slater]

Have we talked about no shows?  No shows for large parties?  What's up with that?  Last night we had a no show for a party of 9.  They had called the day before to enlarge their party from 8 to 9 so its not like they didn't know what restaurant they were going to or something.  Their waiter lost about 1/4 his income for the night.  We turned away another party of 6 because we didn't have the table.

Take credit card numbers and establish a no-show policy.

[Barbara]

Take credit card numbers and establish a no-show policy.

Dean, sometimes it just doesn't pay to be nice. What Mark said.

[hm212]

Does an extra tip make up for being a pain in the neck?

Last night (Christmas Eve) we went out and had a reservation for eight. We wound up being a party of twelve without any advance.

Yes this was out of line and expected a problem of our own making. The restaurant handled like a pro. Of course the fact that a big party just cancelled at the last second saved our day too. We had plenty of thank you's and no complaints. I did remind people at the table that we were lucky to be seated, so if the food takes a few extra minutes so be it.

I can say that we did add an extra tip. On a bill of almost $200 we left $60 tip (so just over 30%).

Did we cover our being out line?

[Miami Danny]

Dean,  sometimes it just doesn't pay to be nice.  What Mark said.

Taking CC's isn't about being nice-it's about being BURNED one too many times by no-shows. It's purely a business decision.

Edited December 26, 2005 by Miami Danny