The Chain Rant

[DanielK]

Do you really want to wait for a table at your favorite palace of fine dining while the unwashed masses clog up the isles with their screaming kids?

Just to add more fire to this flamewar, chain vs. non-chain dining has no correlation whatsoever with dirty people and loud offspring.

My young children are well behaved, because I have brought them up that way, whether I take them to McDonalds, Colorado Kitchen, Kinkead's, etc.

[Banco]

Just to add more fire to this flamewar, chain vs. non-chain dining has no correlation whatsoever with dirty people and loud offspring.

My young children are well behaved, because I have brought them up that way, whether I take them to McDonalds, Colorado Kitchen, Kinkead's, etc.

Right you are. I'd like to add that one of the reasons our 4-year-old son is so well behaved in restaurants is because we never (well, hardly ever ) eat at chains, which tend to encourage poor table manners even among adults.

[brr]

Chains do have their place in this world.  Do you really want to wait for a table at your favorite palace of fine dining while the unwashed masses clog up the isles with their screaming kids?

Give me a break here.  You don't have to like MickyDees, Jerrys, BK, etc, but they do serve a purpose, and alot of burgers.

I'd just like to add my voice to the others who disagree with your statement - children can and do behave appropriately in restaurants, if taught to do so by their parents. The chain v non-chain argument is irrelevent

Edited November 10, 2005 by brr

[Waitman]

Chains do have their place in this world.  Do you really want to wait for a table at your favorite palace of fine dining while the unwashed masses clog up the isles with their screaming kids?

Give me a break here.  You don't have to like MickyDees, Jerrys, BK, etc, but they do serve a purpose, and alot of burgers.

Having not been born a count or a Rockefeller or a Maharaja I try not to sneer at people who work for a living but haven't had the good manners to get rich doing it, though you should feel free to continue sneering yourself.

As a parent and a diner and a waiter, the overwhelming number my encounters with children and their parents in dining establishments have been positive, perhaps you are spending time in the wrong palaces.

And though I admittedly had lunch in something of a palace today (merci, Mr. Slater), the restaurants I have in mind are not four-star joints, but well-run independent restaurants like Tonic and Radius on Mt. Pleasant St., Buck's Fishing and Camping, various RockStar joints, The Hitching Post, and numerous decent ethnic joints around the city and surrounding area.

And finally, yes, I would love to see the "unwashed masses" (you have such a way with words) and their children supporting good restaurants and creating demand for many, many more.

[Gastro888]

Shoot, let's not restrict this to kids. I've seen teens and adults behave badly in chains and restaurants. Ugh.

Hot Shoppes was a chain and I loved it. Granted, it did mislead me to believe real mashed potatoes must served with an ice cream scooper but nonetheless, I loved every bit of it.

Chains do have their place, that's for sure!

[JLK]

My favorite chain that is not Chipotle: Baluchi's in NYC. Yum...cheap Indian.

[DC in DC]

This is off the chain topic, but on the children in restaurants topic (new thread, perhaps?), but this article in the Times yesterday was very interesting.

At Center of a Clash, Rowdy Children in Coffee Shops

A cafe owner in Chicago put up a sign requesting that children use their indoor voices while in his cafe...which led to a huge backlash among parents in the neighborhood, who felt entitled to bring their rowdy children into his cafe. My impression is that the sign was done in a playful manner (it was placed at kid-level and had paint handprints on it). It reminds me of a little note that Gillian Clark puts on her menus, asking that parents keep their children under control.

I don't see this owners' actions as anti-child (and neither did the many who wrote letters to the editor today), but apparently these parents did. I don't have children, and I have no problem with children dining at any restaurant so long as they are appropriately behaved.

[DanielK]

A cafe owner in Chicago put up a sign requesting that children use their indoor voices while in his cafe...which led to a huge backlash among parents in the neighborhood, who felt entitled to bring their rowdy children into his cafe. My impression is that the sign was done in a playful manner (it was placed at kid-level and had paint handprints on it).  It reminds me of a little note that Gillian Clark puts on her menus, asking that parents keep their children under control.

FWIW, having taken my kids to Colorado Kitchen on a number of occasions, I think the note on Gillian's menu is priceless. I think the same about the cafe in Chicago. People who are offended by it are probably the ones whom most need the reminder...

[Gastro888]

Yeah, but what do you do about out of control teens and adults?

You can't send them to bed without their supper, can you?

It's sad to see that society's come to this - we need reminders on how to behave in restaurants. Ai.

[qwertyy]

Other people's kids are why I often eat at the bar.

[brr]

People who are offended by it are probably the ones whom most need the reminder...

what he said

[hm212]

For everyone who hates chains there are a lot of people that do go to them. Of course that is why they are in business.

I just called Bonefish Grill for tonight, and they said "We are already full for tonight". I can see that at Black's but Bonefish Grill?

[bilrus]

I just called Bonefish Grill for tonight, and they said "We are already full for tonight".  I can see that at Black's but Bonefish Grill?

When Bonefish opened in my neighborhood I went the second week and was told that there would be a 170 minute wait for a table. Unh-unh.

Went back a few weeks ago and I wouldn't eat there again if it was a drive through.

[Waitman]

Washington Post on chain decor.

"Susan Sontag nailed the idea of camp in the 1960s, labeling it as "failed seriousness," but no one has yet put a finger on the failed joviality of the retail age -- and its air of enforced cheer, sentimental prefab and the replication of nostalgia."

Edited December 8, 2005 by Waitman

[jparrott]

When Bonefish opened in my neighborhood I went the second week and was told that there would be a 170 minute wait for a table.  Unh-unh.

Went back a few weeks ago and I wouldn't eat there again if it was a drive through.

I went to the bar at one in Chantilly and was charged $7.50++ for a very small, very bad tanqueray and tonic. Givest thou me a break.

[Heather]

This caption says it all:

Michelle Edwards, decor supplier for T.G.I. Friday's, says focus groups have reacted "very well" to the new look for the chain.

[Elias Hengst]

One issue that has gone overlooked is the fact that many of our beloved local restaurants, big and small, support massive "chains", ie. national food distributors like SYSCO and US Foodservice. http://www.sysco.com/ http://www.usfoodservice.com/

SYSCO is a main line vendor that supplies thousands of restaurants with standardized, homogenized, mediocre produce, meats, dairy, etc. It has the same effect on local farmers and suppliers that chain restaurants do...only exponentially, because they supply the thousands of restaurants that feed YOU.

Some use of large distributors is occassionally necessary - for staples like pre-packaged table sugar, paper goods ,etc - but if you really want to get at the root of the chain problem, you cannot avoid discussing companies like SYSCO. SYSCO standardizes production and quality, and then passes it (sorry, sells it!) to you.

Think SYSCO only supplies big restaurants?

I think many would be surprised if they hung around the alleys or back door of restaurants during delivery time. A big white refrigerated 18 wheeler is a tip off that your favorite place isn't using "local" suppliers.

I am always surprised that diners and critics alike spend so much time talking about a wine's terroir, age, and their favorite vintner's artistry - but express little curiosity about where their steak or tomato comes from.

Companies like SYSCO, and restaurants that rely on them exclusively, are an integral part of the problem.

[deangold]

Sysco has their place in the world. I buy glasses from Libbey, Arcoroc etc, cleaning solutions for my dishwasher etc. These come from Adams Burch but they could just as easily come from Sysco.

But never shall a piece of food come from someone like that. In the rare instances that a large purveyor even has some food productof quality, it hurts the little guy who searches out these fine products and make a business carrying a wide array of them if I cherry pick and buy one or two items from Sysco etc. I need to support my network of suppliers as best I can to assure they will continue to be there for me. I am conscious of where my money goes.

When you chose to eat at a large national chain, be conscious of what your dollar decision iis doing. You are supporting corporate farming and making it harder for the independent food distributors to make it in a market. Also with highly processed food, you are contributing to the degradation of our nations taste buds. Imagine growing up thinking that what McDs serves is really a hamburger. I was lucky enough to grow up in the day of the corner burger joint. Today they are few and far between. The 5 guys guys may be getting rich, but they have indeed sold out what made them special. Not shame on them, but shame on those of us who patronize them and accept rude service and poorly cooked and presented products like at the G Town location.

Edited December 8, 2005 by deangold

[mdt]

I wonder how many of the small corner joints we enjoy buy their products from Sysco and the like. I am sure that it is more than we want to believe.

[shogun]

I wonder how many of the small corner joints we enjoy buy their products from Sysco and the like.  I am sure that it is more than we want to believe.

Heh, let's not turn into a witch-hunt, now...

Has to be a reason restaurateurs do it, even if they know better. Money, probably. I can imagine, in my admittably untutored mind, that the difference in price is probably enough where a joint can survive by buying meat and produce from Sysco where they would otherwise fail but still maintain their right-minded worldview. Is it better to compromise a little (or a lot, depending on how you look at it) and stay in business, or fail with your belief system intact? Think a case can be made either way.

[Mark Slater]

Heh, let's not turn into a witch-hunt, now...  

Has to be a reason restaurateurs do it, even if they know better.  Money, probably.  I can imagine, in my admittably untutored mind, that the difference in price is probably enough where a joint can survive by buying meat and produce from Sysco where they would otherwise fail but still maintain their right-minded worldview.  Is it better to compromise a little (or a lot, depending on how you look at it) and stay in business, or fail with your belief system intact?  Think a case can be made either way.

Dean was right about the place of companies like SYSCO. For bulk products, they are the source. Frying oil, 50 lb. bags of rice, ----->cafeteria items<-------- like plastic spoons forks and knives, paper napkins. There is no "little guy" sourcing this kind of stuff. Would I buy a squab from SYSCO? Hell no! Clorox? Of course.

BTW, SYSCO has a $500 minimum order for delivery.

[giant shrimp]

i don't know who is supplying the food for dc jails, but it is truly terrible. it must be a chain.

[DonRocks]

i don't know who is supplying the food for dc jails, but it is truly terrible. it must be a chain.

yeah but at least you don't have to drive home drunk after your meal

[RaisaB]

Sysco has their place in the world.  I buy glasses from Libbey, Arcoroc etc,

When you chose to eat at a large national chain, be conscious of what your dollar decision iis doing.  You are supporting corporate farming and making it harder for the independent food distributors to make it in a market.  Also with highly processed food, you are contributing to the degradation of our nations taste buds. Imagine growing up thinking that what McDs serves is really a hamburger.  I was lucky enough to grow up in the day of the corner burger joint.  Today they are few and far between.  The 5 guys guys may be getting rich, but they have indeed sold out what made them special.  Not shame on them, but shame on those of us who patronize them and accept rude service and poorly cooked and presented products like at the G Town location.

Dean,

It is a vicious cycle. When I want to go locally to eat, I ONLY have chains to choose from. (See previous thread) Until that moment when small restaurateurs (sp?) start opening restaurants where I live, I have no choice but to support these chains and the cycle.

By the way, I have a Bonefish across the road from me, I see Slavin and Sons delivering there every day. That isn't exactly a bad supplier or cheap at that. As far as a chain restaurant goes, I think they are one of the best. The other chain I think does very well is the Great American.

Edited December 8, 2005 by RaisaB

[giant shrimp]

yeah but at least you don't have to drive home drunk after your meal

this is obviously not true for the many who are run in on suspicion. french convicts, from what i have seen at the movies, receive much better meals than what is being provided by the chains in this country. they even have wine, at least in "l'argent," they do. and being forced to eat this slop before a jury has even been impaneled surely is a violation of the presumption of innocence.

[Scott Johnston]

I have a sorta first date with a beautiful women on Saturday night (yeah me!). I am picking her up in Centerville and driving to a party in Springfield. Any suggestions for a moderate price place at either one or those places or somewhere in between?

Searching the site I only came up with a new site of local chain San Vito Restorante Italian and Dixie Bones in Springfield.

[bilrus]

I was never enthralled with the food in Springfield, but I always had good meals at Mike American (part of the Great American Restaurants group with Sweetwater, Carlyle, etc.).

[mdt]

I was never enthralled with the food in Springfield, but I always had good meals at Mike American (part of the Great American Restaurants group with Sweetwater, Carlyle, etc.).

Bill is correct. Nothing I can recommend, unless you want to take her to Pho.

[Free Wilma]

I have a sorta first date with a beautiful women on Saturday night (yeah me!).  I am picking her up in Centerville and driving to a party in Springfield. Any suggestions for a moderate price place at either one or those places or somewhere in between?

Searching the site I only came up with a new site of local chain San Vito Restorante Italian and Dixie Bones in Springfield.

I thought Dixie Bones was in Woodbridge.

[dmwine]

I have a sorta first date with a beautiful women on Saturday night (yeah me!).  I am picking her up in Centerville and driving to a party in Springfield. Any suggestions for a moderate price place at either one or those places or somewhere in between?

Searching the site I only came up with a new site of local chain San Vito Restorante Italian and Dixie Bones in Springfield.

I don't think San Vito qualifies as a "chain" for this thread - there are three, and they are all local. And good. You will have above-average to excellent food at a moderate price and fun ambience; appropriate for a "sorta first date". Not that I've had one of those in a few decades.

[dinwiddie]

We were driving home from Toronto on Friday and by dinner time I was getting a little punchy (I think we all were) and wanted to stop and get something to eat. We had been joking about the signs for Hoss's Steak and Seafood Restaurants because there is one in the small town where my son goes to college. However, none of us had ever tried it. As I understand it, the owner used to own several Ponderosa franchises and got tired of them and broke off to start his own chain. They seem to be all over central PA.

In a word, it was the worst meal I have had in many years. Good things about it, the server, an old lady named Pinkie was a delight. She was friendly, funny, and attentive. A decent if ordinary salad bar and dessert bar. Bad things, everything else. The food was horrible. I had ordered the BBQ steak tips, some tips, lots of BBQ sauce and onions to cover it up. It came with smothered fries, decent fries ruined with cheese and bacon (cold), a small container of very forgettable slaw, and all the soda you wanted (Pinkie was very good at keeping it filled.) My wife, being a seafood lover and not a big fan of steaks, ordered the crabcakes, which were featured and offered fried or broiled. She took one bite and make a wierd face and declared them uneatable and did wonder if there was any crab among the filler. My son ordered the ribs, and didn't finish them. Anyone who has a 18 yo boy knows what that means.

We were all so punchy that we lost it and could not stop laughing. The boy decided he would make a documentary, something like Vernon FL, about middle of nowhere chain restaurants and their customers. What suprised me was that the folks around us seemed to be content with the food. I guess the fact that it was inexpensive (our total bill came to $45.) plentiful desserts, and comradare made it ok. The sad thing was that if we had driven further into the town we would have found several "nice" restaurants. We have told the boy we will give him $20 to go to the Hoss's at school when he gets back just to see if they are all that bad. He said that he wouldn't even consider it.

[sunshine]

I can't judge the fast food chains, because I am guilty of occasionally craving and partaking of the Big Mac, the Popeye's spicy dark meat, the Taco Bell gordita, etc., and during those moments, I'm grateful to have them around as a source of the quick, cheap, totally predictable meal that satisfies the particular craving. I think it's good that many of the chains are responding to public pressure for healthier items and more nutrition information. I have less tolerance, though, for the Applebees, Chilis, TGI Fridays and the like, that charge higher prices for loads of crappy, factory-made, high sodium, preservative laden, bulk-purchased food that you have to wait and tip for. I know it's hypocritical given my confession about fast food chains, but it's where I draw the line personally, I guess. As an educated consumer, I try to buy from the local farmers' markets, buy and eat what's in season, and frequent local non-chain places and restaurants that have more of a "food conscience", with the mindset that food choices are political and economic choices. At the same time, I realize that I'm unable to be dogmatic about it, and many people don't have the luxury to make such choices or aren't given much of a choice at all. My personal approach is moderation. "All things are permissible but not everything is beneficial."

[DanielK]

... guilty of occasionally craving and partaking of the Big Mac, the Popeye's spicy dark meat, the Taco Bell gordita, ...I have less tolerance, though, for the Applebees, Chilis, TGI Fridays and the like,

I think you have better company than you think. When I'm carting the kids around, and we need something to eat NOW, sometimes fast food is unavoidable. However, if I'm going to sit down somewhere and get served, the Crapplebees of the world certainly are avoidable.

[DonRocks]

Sitting in front of me right now is a receipt from Hard Rock Cafe in Niagara Falls. Here is what it says:

1 SOFT DRINK 2.99

DIET COKE

1 BACON CHEESE 13.99

CHEDDAR

1 BACON CHEESE 13.99

SWISS

2 STELLA DRFT @ 6.15 12.30

Food 30.97

Beer 12.30

43.27 G.S.T Tax 2.60

30.97 Food Tax 2.48

12.30 Liquor Tax .23

Canadian $$ $49.58

U.S. $ 47.22

*** Please Pay Your Server ***

Gratuity Not Included

PRESENT THIS RECEIPT FOR A FREE

COLLECTABLE ITEM WITH A MINIMUM

PURCHASE OF $15 ON ANY

MERCHANDISE ITEM

And then, down at the bottom:

Thank you for visiting

HARD ROCK CAFE

Niagara Falls, CANADA

Save The Planet

Save The Planet

[Jacques Gastreaux]

Rocks:

Did you have the cheddar or the Swiss?

[qwertyy]

Three bucks for a Diet Coke? Was this Hard Rock Cafe in a movie theater perchance?

[JPW]

Three bucks for a Diet Coke? Was this Hard Rock Cafe in a movie theater perchance?

$3 Cdn. $2.66 (US) at today's exchange rate

FWIW, I find it most amusing that the food tax is higher than the liquor tax.

[bookluvingbabe]

$3 Cdn. $2.66 (US) at today's exchange rate

FWIW, I find it most amusing that the food tax is higher than the liquor tax.

Taxes in Canada are awful. 15% on food and I ignore the tax on liquor.... Makes it easy to calculate a baseline tip though....

[DonRocks]

The following posts were split off into separate threads:

Applebee's (happyguy)

[Escoffier]

Taxes in Canada are awful. 15% on food and I ignore the tax on liquor.... Makes it easy to calculate a baseline tip though....

If you find it bad for you as a tourist, try to imagine living there. My daughter is in northern Ontario (and has been for the last 7 years). She has to deal with that every day.

[Joe H]

When the Canadian dollar was $1.62 to the U. S. dollar (four years ago) Canada was THE bargain on the face of the earth. Today the Canadian dollar is the strongest in almost 30 years @ $1.13 today. (A fact: I've been with a Vancouver company for almost twenty years.)

Outback Steakhouse is a remarkably good and consistent chain for one thing: grilled fish with steamed vegetables. In 50 + visits per year to Outback I have never had a bad meal with almost 25 years of doing this. I've probably been to 250-300 Outbacks around the U. S. over time.

Explanation: when not gorging in D. C. and elsewhere I try to diet and exercise as much as I can. My meal of choice when travelling is Outback for grilled fish (grouper, rockfish, etc.), double order of steamed veggies, salad with viniagrette (minus the cheese and croutons) and two glasses of Greg Norman shiraz. I eat about 1/3 of the remoulade sauce that comes with the fish. Approximately 1100 calories including the wine, nutricious and genuinely good.

I never eat at Outback in D. C.

Other "good" chains: Bahama Breeze (especially in Florida), Seasons 52 (now a regional chain and the best of class), Pappadeux (for what it is: "plastic" Cajun but still decent), Pappasito's (short step up from Rio Grande), In 'n Out Burger, Culver's (better than I want to admit), Houston's (yes, it's a chain-of course McCormick and Schmidt's, Ruth's Chris, Morton's, etc. are national chains too as are Emeril's, Wolfgang Puck and a few others) and (I wonder if anyone is reading this) the new restaurant coming to Reston Town Center in Midtown West, Il Fornaio from northern California. For anyone who has read this far, this is Il Fornaio's website: http://www.ilfornaio.com/page1.htm Zagat 22 points in Southern CA and less in Northern CA.

Edited July 31, 2006 by Joe H

[bilrus]

(I wonder if anyone is reading this) the new restaurant coming to Reston Town Center in Midtown West, Il Fornaio from northern California. For anyone who has read this far, this is Il Fornaio's website: http://www.ilfornaio.com/page1.htm Zagat 22 points in Southern CA and less in Northern CA.

I stuck with it. I had a good meal at the Il Fornaio in Carmel several years ago. I don't remember what I had, but I do remember that it was the most bustling place in that sleepy town. And I mean that in a good way. I never knew it was a chain. Should be a nice addition to Reston.

[bilrus]

Apparently money can't buy you taste.

From today's Reliable Source:

Love, Etc.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re-merged: Sorry, ladies! The nation's second-richest man, Warren Buffett, exchanged vows Wednesday with longtime companion Astrid Menks at his daughter's Omaha home...

The small wedding dinner was held at Omaha's new chain restaurant, Bonefish Grill (average entree price, $15).

[DLB]

Apparently money can't buy you taste.

From today's Reliable Source:

Buffet is not known for being a big spender, besides I have been to the Bonefish in Chantilly several times, and it's really not that bad. I believe Bonefish is owned by the same group that owns the Outback Steakhouses.

[Al Dente]

Apparently money can't buy you taste.

From today's Reliable Source:

Somehow, this depresses the crap outta me.

I mean, my net worth is approximately .00000000001% (if you include the jar of change on my dresser) of Mr Buffet's. If I aspire to be a multi-billionare, what could I possibly eat? Ear wax and navel lint, I suspect.

At least he didn't go to Margaritaville.

[bilrus]

Buffet is not known for being a big spender, besides I have been to the Bonefish in Chantilly several times, and it's really not that bad. I believe Bonefish is owned by the same group that owns the Outback Steakhouses.

I didn't really like my meal at the Ashburn Bonefish. Besides I've been to Omaha and had at least two meals there that were much better and not much more expensive than Bonefish.

[Heather]

Click here to read about an interesting solution to the creeping chain problem. From the article:

Section 17.22.020(D)(2) of the Calistoga municipal code bans all “formula restaurants.” The ordinance, adopted in 1996, defines a formula restaurant as one that has standardized menus and a name, appearance and logo identical to another restaurant located elsewhere. In short, it keeps out Burger King, McDonald’s and other fast-food chains.

[crackers]

This may be a growing trend as governments try to find ways to limit the spread of chains that may adversely impact the special character of the municipality. Similar ordinances exist in Bristol, RI, Bainbridge Island, WA, Carmel, Coronado, Sausalito, Solvang and Pacific Grove in CA, Sanibel, FL and York, ME. Here's more.

San Francisco, the only large city with a formula business ordinace, has chosen to take a neighborhood-by-neighborhood approach. Under the law, whenever a formula retail business applies to open, residents in the surrounding neighborhood are notified. They have the option of requesting a public hearing and subjecting the applicant to additional scrutiny. The ordinance allows for varying degrees of regulation in each neighborhood. Some have banned formula businesses entirely. Others neighborhoods may petition the city to allow formula businesses without notification.

These ordinances have been upheld in court. See the June 2003 California Appeals Court decision upholding Coronado's formula business ordinance.

And then there are cities like Annapolis, which is allowing a Starbucks to go into the old King of France Tavern in the historic Maryland Inn.

[Spiral Stairs]

I don't know if it is still in place, but Evanston, Illinois used to have an unusual law governing fast food establishments. 24-hour "fast food" restaurants were prohibited; "fast food" was defined as food that was, on the customer's request, provided in a paper bag. (At least this was the common understanding of the law; I'm sure the statute/regulation was actually more complex than this.)

It didn't stop a 24-hour Burger King from operating. If you wanted an order to go at Burger King, they would give you your food on a tray and then hand you a bag.

I'm sure that caused a great deal of confusion among out-of-towners who didn't know the odd backstory.

[Barbara]

This is especially for Waitman:

Click