Dress Codes

[MarkS]

The funny thing is most of this list would come down hard on an establishment that served a great wine in a cocktail glass. Dress, surrounding, sound, lights, are all part of the dining experience.

And the last time I went to a DR happy hour, I didnt see any torn jean or T-Shirts that folks here seem to now think is the norm.

[Waitman]

Question: Where do Mario Batali and Anthony bourdain eat, and what do they wear when doing so?

Answer: Who cares?

You know where Mario doesn't eat? The French Laundry. Thrown out because he was in shorts.

Cast me in with those who think that "appropriate" dress (a very broad definition, but we all kind of know what is meant in this discussion) not only shows a little respect for the establishment -- it shows that this dinner is somehow more important or special than eating carryout Chinese in front of the game in the basement -- but it makes the experience a little more pleasant and fun for other diners. Sure, you could serve CityZen chow on plastic plates or eat Restaurant Eve food with cheap cafeteria flatware under fluorescent lights and it would all taste good. But the owners of these establishments and their customers know that making an effort to lift the ambiance above the level found at a TGI Friday's makes the meal a more enjoyable and maybe even shows a little class. Just as the diners do when they make an effort to remember their manners, keep the conversation at volume conducive to other diners' pleasure and relatively expletive-free...and up their game sartorially.

Every aspect of any restaurant has an incremental effect on other diners. I think if Eric, Jarad and Andy at CityZen (for example) are going to make an effort to look sharp and serve in an immaculate room, I can my own little bit to play along, and not get snippy about having to wear a jacket. And if Derek wants to offer up a hip and refined room for exotic cocktails, I can rise above a t-shirt and sneakers, though I can never be as sharp-casual as he and his staff. Taking a cue from the vision of those hosting you is never a bad idea. So I even try to wear my best Hawaiian shirt to Ray's. (I will starve before I will dine in public in flip-flops, though, assuming I'm more than 50 feet from a swimmable body of water.)

[stickmoon]

I am still trying to understand how what someone else wears interferes with your or anyone's enjoyment of dinner. Please help me. Are your dining companions so boring that you need to scan the room and critique what others are wearing?

At a restaurant that sets a more formal tone, wearing appropriate attire shows respect for the establishment, it's employees and it's patrons. Others have said this upthread, and I'm unsure why it's such a controversial point. When someone walks into a fancy place in flip-flops, a t-shirt and shorts, it undermines that for everyone. Dining out is a social experience. Although perhaps I need to get less boring dining companions, because I do look at others around me, and at times I even comment (gasp!) on how under-dressed that guy who just walked into Proof wearing a Nike t-shirt and Old Navy sandals looks.

[demandalicious]

I will starve before I will dine in public in flip-flops, though, assuming I'm more than 50 feet from a swimmable body of water.

Amen! I believe that there is a world of dinner-appropriate fashion between a suit and a pair of sweatpants, but flip flops are never okay, ever.

[Ericandblueboy]

I am still trying to understand how what someone else wears interferes with your or anyone's enjoyment of dinner. Please help me. Are your dining companions so boring that you need to scan the room and critique what others are wearing? Do the suits and dresses that they wear have to be a certain style?

And don't get me started on people bitching on what people wear when going to the theater! Please! I will, as usual, be wearing jeans and a t-shirt to the next show I attend.

If the restaurant says business casual, why do you flout their rules? Where do you draw the line? What if someone walks in to a restaurant with nothing but speedos? What if that person is hirsute like an ape and has big swelling acne to boot on his back?

[dcandohio]

Dining out is a social experience.

Exactly. So I don't understand the folks who say that what others wear does not influence them. The behavior of others can certainly impact my experience. I don't want to be seated next to a couple who is arguing, or a person who has marinated in cheap cologne, or a group that wears shorts and flip flops to a special-occasion restaurant. No matter how engaging my dining companion(s), it's hard to ignore some aspect of the experience that is incongruent with your expectations and the expectations of the proprietors.

[pizza man]

...But if I wear long sleeves and long pants, people can't see my tattoos! At least my many facial piercings will still be clearly visible..

[alan7147]

Al Dente @ Jun 15 2009, 08:20 PM)

So true. Nothing like wearing out on the town what you would also end up being buried in. Then let's talk about the metaphorical noose tied around one's neck.

Suits are for schmucks.

Eh, nevermind.

No nevermind. I wear a suit to work most days and one day about two years ago I realized that I was indeed a schmuck for buying the seafood at Whole Foods. Now I go to Blacksalt and my days of schmucktitude are long gone.

[xdcx]

Exactly. So I don't understand the folks who say that what others wear does not influence them. The behavior of others can certainly impact my experience. I don't want to be seated next to a couple who is arguing, or a person who has marinated in cheap cologne, or a group that wears shorts and flip flops to a special-occasion restaurant. No matter how engaging my dining companion(s), it's hard to ignore some aspect of the experience that is incongruent with your expectations and the expectations of the proprietors.

the arguing and the cologne both invade your space and are understandable. caring about what someone else is wearing isn't. If the establishment has no issue with it, why should any of you?

[Ericandblueboy]

the arguing and the cologne both invade your space and are understandable. caring about what someone else is wearing isn't. If the establishment has no issue with it, why should any of you?

The establishment is in the business of selling food and making money. I'm there to eat. An eyesore does bother me because I'm eating.

[hungry prof]

The establishment is in the business of selling food and making money. I'm there to eat. An eyesore does bother me because I'm eating.

So, uh, don't eat there. If what others are wearing is important to you, then use dress code (and whether it's enforced) as a criteria for choosing a restaurant. If enough people stop going to a place because people are wearing those dastardly flip-flops, then the restaurant will presumably get the message.

[Ericandblueboy]

So, uh, don't eat there. If what others are wearing is important to you, then use dress code (and whether it's enforced) as a criteria for choosing a restaurant. If enough people stop going to a place because people are wearing those dastardly flip-flops, then the restaurant will presumably get the message.

No one has explained to me why he/she would intentionally flout a restaurant's dress code. If a restaurant does try to enforce its dress code, do you get miffed?

[Al Dente]

No nevermind. I wear a suit to work most days and one day about a two years ago I realized that I was indeed a schmuck for buying the seafood at Whole Foods. Now I go to Blacksalt and my days of schmucktitude are long gone.

I take back what I said.

Suits are for the delicately sensitive.

[hungry prof]

No one has explained to me why he/she would intentionally flout a restaurant's dress code. If a restaurant does try to enforce its dress code, do you get miffed?

No, I think it's the prerogative of a restaurant to choose how to enforce its dress code. The only time I would get miffed would be if I saw that dress code being enforced in a selective and inconsistent manner. As for why somebody would "intentionally flout a restaurant's dress code," I tried to offer one explanation above: because they can. People see going out for dinner as an opportunity to relax, and some of those people see that as license to dress in a manner that will leave them most comfortable. If nobody forces them to do otherwise, then why would they voluntarily make themselves uncomfortable?

[pizza man]

[Keithstg]

Alternatively,

Click

Or

click

As compared to, say

Click For all the talk of "comfort", who looks more comfortable in these three pics?

[Elyssa]

Getting dressed up is a fun part of doing something special. It adds to the excitement of dining out. It's celebratory. I'd hate to think we're all so jaded that we can't even bring ourselves to gussy up for an experience at a nice restaurant.

100% agree with you! I'm sure because of my "old-fashioned" views I come across as older than I am. But I'm a female in my late 20's and I think it's great to get dressed up every once in awhile and enjoy a wonderfully made meal in a classy establishment.

Now some of my friends disagree. Maybe it's an age thing or just a different philosophy. But many times when I go out with say my boyfriend, our event for the evening, our entertainment is the meal itself. It's a 2 hour long meal at PS7 or Proof or some place else. It is nice to be dressed up and be surronded by people enjoying their meal and also looking nice.

That is not to say that seeing someone in shorts totally ruins my experience. Trust me--nothing is going to take away from the joy of eating the oxtail tots at PS7! But it certainly gives me pause and disappoints me a little. It doesn't reflect on the restaurant in my opinion, it reflects on the diner.

[u-bet!]

Suits are for the delicately sensitive.

[Elyssa]

I'll make sure to show up to your house for dinner in white tie, no matter the occasion.

Some of the attitudes here are a little ridiculous. A restauranteur should set the tone she wants to set at her establishment. If the Prime Rib wants to require coat and tie, they should. If Michael Landrum wants to own a top-notch steakhouse that doesn't care if you wear jeans and a polo, he should. Neither choice is better than the other.

I don't think we are questioning the right of a restaurant to set a dress code (at least I'm not). I was more coming at it from the point of view of a diner. If a mid-to-high level restaurant wants to let the guy in with the shorts and t-shirt because these are hard economic times and they don't want to turn anyone away that is perfectly fine with me. That is the choice of the establishment.

But as a diner I do notice when I took the time to dress up, and most people around me are looking nice, and then there is a table wearing shorts, sneakers and t-shirts. As I mentioned before. It doesn't flat out ruin my experience but I also question why they wouldn't try to figure out the dress code first. And trust me, I 100% realize this makes me sound like such a snob. In most other instances I am so not a snob, but for some reason proper attire in certain restaurants (and as I mentioned before, at the theater) really get to me.

[mdt]

If the restaurant says business casual, why do you flout their rules? Where do you draw the line? What if someone walks in to a restaurant with nothing but speedos? What if that person is hirsute like an ape and has big swelling acne to boot on his back?

Who said I am flouting rules? I never said to disregard the rules, but where there are none folks are free to do what they desire.

And to the folks who say that attire bothers them, are you concerned by what folks look like too? If what someone is wearing is causing you to have a bad dining experience then it must also be bothersome to look at folks that you deem unattractive while dining as well. Unless of course, wearing appropriate attire hides all of that.

[mdt]

And trust me, I 100% realize this makes me sound like such a snob. In most other instances I am so not a snob, but for some reason proper attire in certain restaurants (and as I mentioned before, at the theater) really get to me.

I know this is waaaaaay off topic, but why the hell does it matter what someone wears to the theater?! And people wonder why more folks don't go.

[pizza man]

Alternatively,

Click

Or

click

As compared to, say

Click For all the talk of "comfort", who looks more comfortable in these three pics?

Pee Wee looks like he's having the most fun. The two idiots in the hats and gaudy t'shirts look pretty comfy too. Steve McQueen died like 30 years ago, didn't he? He's hardly relevant.

Now, if everybody had to dress like the Blues Brothers, I might drop my money in that establishment.

[Elyssa]

I am still trying to understand how what someone else wears interferes with your or anyone's enjoyment of dinner. Please help me. Are your dining companions so boring that you need to scan the room and critique what others are wearing? Do the suits and dresses that they wear have to be a certain style?

And don't get me started on people bitching on what people wear when going to the theater! Please! I will, as usual, be wearing jeans and a t-shirt to the next show I attend.

As I've mentioned a few times, it doesn't ruin my meal. But I think it is a sign of respect. If Chef Tom Powers or Michel Richard are cooking me a nice meal, I prefer to wear a nice top and black paints or a dress. It's just the way I prefer to dine and show respect for the establishment that is serving me. Maybe it was how I was raised. Plus it's fun!!

No my dining companions are not boring. They are usually quite interesting and also share my views in having a nice night out, looking nice and enjoying a well-made meal. I wear jeans out to restaurants all the time. Take CoCo Sala for example--I would wear nice jeans, a cute shirt, and heals. That seems appropriate.

I just take notice when most people around me are dressed nice and then a table is seated wearing shorts and sneakers. I think it's weird.

The only thing that is going to actually ruin my meal is poor service or poor cooking.

[Ericandblueboy]

Who said I am flouting rules? I never said to disregard the rules, but where there are none folks are free to do what they desire.

This discussion is about having a dress code.

And to the folks who say that attire bothers them, are you concerned by what folks look like too? If what someone is wearing is causing you to have a bad dining experience then it must also be bothersome to look at folks that you deem unattractive while dining as well. Unless of course, wearing appropriate attire hides all of that.

Yes, I am concerned about my appearance and I am concerned about the appearance of others. If that's not the case, Hollywood stars would all look like Kathy Bates and not Megan Fox. Is this where you jump in and call me shallow? Maybe you are better than me deep down inside but I really couldn't care less as long as you follow the dress code.

[Keithstg]

Pee Wee looks like he's having the most fun. The two idiots in the hats and gaudy t'shirts look pretty comfy too. Steve McQueen died like 30 years ago, didn't he? He's hardly relevant.

Now, if everybody had to dress like the Blues Brothers, I might drop my money in that establishment.

If you don't think Steve McQueen is relevant, then I'm sorry. Those pics are probably 30 years old, or roughly as old as me. Were he (or anyone else) to wear the clothes in those pics out today, they would (a) be comfortable, and ( look relevant. The choads in the last pic look absurd now - I can't imagine thirty years hence. Ultimately, I cringe at the thought of anything other than jeans and t-shirts being deemed uncomfortable, or for schmucks. Makes me wonder if the issue is that folks nowadays don't either own a decent suit or know a tailor.

All of this said, someone else's attire in a restaurant doesn't bother me if it doesn't bother the restaurant staff.

[Elyssa]

I know this is waaaaaay off topic, but why the hell does it matter what someone wears to the theater?! And people wonder why more folks don't go.

Again, it's a respect thing. I have really fond memories of getting dressed up and going to a ballet as a kid. And I think it was a wonderful experience. Same thing goes for fancy dinners.

Trust me---I've gotten better with the theater thing. In Europe, since theater is much more accessible to the public, people don't get dressed up. But it bothers me a little bit. I think it's fun to put on your Sunday Best and go to the opera. But I guess that's just me. I would never turn someone away for wearing shorts. But at least put on a pair of jeans or slacks. Is it that hard of an effort?

[Ericandblueboy]

I know this is waaaaaay off topic, but why the hell does it matter what someone wears to the theater?! And people wonder why more folks don't go.

There is no official dress code for the opera so you see a wide variety of get-ups. But once the opera starts, the lights are dimmed and your focus is on the stage. So what people wear to the theatre does not bother me.

[edenman]

And the last time I went to a DR happy hour, I didnt see any torn jean or T-Shirts that folks here seem to now think is the norm.

Not the same event, but I'm pretty sure I wore jeans, a black t-shirt, and flip-flops to the Vidalia beef tasting. And yes, that's my norm. If I dress up at work, people thinking I'm interviewing elsewhere, and I rarely have time to go change between work and dinner.

I want to have sex with Megan Fox.

[hungry prof]

There is no official dress code for the opera so you see a wide variety of get-ups. But once the opera starts, the lights are dimmed and your focus is on the stage. So what people wear to the theatre does not bother me.

And that is *so* much different from a restaurant in which once the menus are delivered, your focus is presumably on whomever you are eating with and what you are eating?

[stickmoon]

I know this is waaaaaay off topic, but why the hell does it matter what someone wears to the theater?! And people wonder why more folks don't go.

It's not of topic at all; the same principal applies.

Dinner at Citronelle is vastly different experience from dinner at, say, Tackle Box. Most people dress up at one place, and dress down at the other.

Going to the theater is a vastly different experience from going to the movies. There are (or were) different standards of dress for each.

[Ericandblueboy]

And that is *so* much different from a restaurant in which once the menus are delivered, your focus is presumably on whomever you are eating with and what you are eating?

I was at Volt this weekend. My wife was sitting next to me. When I wasn't looking down at the food, I wasn't starting at my wife either. I was observing the kitchen and other people in the room and there were plenty of people observing us as we sat at Table 21. Plus, we both enjoy people watching. We're bad people.

[B.A.R.]

I'll admit, I am horribly vain. My vanity may be exceeded only by my wife's.

We like to dress up and go out to "dine" and we like to be casual and go out to "eat". Regardless of whether we are dressed up or dressed casually, we always enjoy good food. Sometimes we even stumble upon a restauarant when we hadn't planned on "dining" and seem under dressed. Oh the horror.

So we ask if it's alright to dine in our current attire. And if the restaurant says OK, I don't have the slightest idea why it would bother someone who was dining, say, next to me, or across the room from me, or in the next room from me.

If the misses and I decide to get dressed up because we want to look good and feel good, what a stranger might be wearing four tables away from my wife doesn't effect my night a bit. I am dining with her, not them, and she's hot.

[pizza man]

I'll admit, I am horribly vain. My vanity may be exceeded only by my wife's.

We like to dress up and go out to "dine" and we like to be casual and go out to "eat". Regardless of whether we are dressed up or dressed casually, we always enjoy good food. Sometimes we even stumble upon a restauarant when we hadn't planned on "dining" and seem under dressed. Oh the horror.

So we ask if it's alright to dine in our current attire. And if the restaurant says OK, I don't have the slightest idea why it would bother someone who was dining, say, next to me, or across the room from me, or in the next room from me.

If the misses and I decide to get dressed up because we want to look good and feel good, what a stranger might be wearing four tables away from my wife doesn't effect my night a bit. I am dining with her, not them, and she's hot.

pretty much sums it up for me. Pizza Guy, out.

[Al Dente]

you know what i hate seeing in restaurants?

shabbily-dressed chicks breastfeeding on Segways...

[tentimesodds]

I don't think we are questioning the right of a restaurant to set a dress code (at least I'm not). I was more coming at it from the point of view of a diner. If a mid-to-high level restaurant wants to let the guy in with the shorts and t-shirt because these are hard economic times and they don't want to turn anyone away that is perfectly fine with me. That is the choice of the establishment.

But as a diner I do notice when I took the time to dress up, and most people around me are looking nice, and then there is a table wearing shorts, sneakers and t-shirts. As I mentioned before. It doesn't flat out ruin my experience but I also question why they wouldn't try to figure out the dress code first. And trust me, I 100% realize this makes me sound like such a snob. In most other instances I am so not a snob, but for some reason proper attire in certain restaurants (and as I mentioned before, at the theater) really get to me.

It's ridiculous that you even care about what people at other tables are wearing (assuming they are not bothering you or naked or something like that). Is it possible that the reason you don't like it when people at the table next to you wear shorts is that you feel that you're better than them and they don't deserve to share the establishment with you? It does make you sound like a snob that you aren't focusing on your table and your meal, but somebody else's--indeed, it makes you a snob. My point in discussing the restaurant's right to enforce a dress code is that it's up to the owner who he wants to serve, and it's only up to you whether you want to dine. You don't have a right to demand that a place be exclusionary just because you think the food is high class.

[monsterriffs]

I am going to register my vehement opposition to the notion that wearing a suit is considered "sad". If anything is sad, it's the business casual uniform of a blue oxford button-down shirt w/ khakis, and it is a pox upon the American workplace and culture on the whole. I long for the return and widespread acceptance of men's business attire like that of the 1940s to 1960s-era (think 'Mad Men'), where being well-dressed was respected rather than being spat upon.

How this relates to restaurants nowadays is that in the days of yesteryear, I doubt any man would have been caught dead in a restaurant wearing anything less than a suit and tie. However, I am willing to concede that while I do love my casual wear, one really has to dress for the restaurant and the occasion. I'm not likely to wear a suit or sportcoat and tie when visiting Ray's Hell-Burger (I will argue that it would make more sense for Ray's The Classics, though), and similarly, I'm not likely to wear a black t-shirt and jeans when going to CityZen or Restaurant Eve.

Luckily, we live in a country where the freedom of expression is protected. But would it hurt us to express a bit of respect through our attire to our beloved chefs and restauranteurs?

[Elyssa]

It's ridiculous that you even care about what people at other tables are wearing (assuming they are not bothering you or naked or something like that). Is it possible that the reason you don't like it when people at the table next to you wear shorts is that you feel that you're better than them and they don't deserve to share the establishment with you? It does make you sound like a snob that you aren't focusing on your table and your meal, but somebody else's--indeed, it makes you a snob. My point in discussing the restaurant's right to enforce a dress code is that it's up to the owner who he wants to serve, and it's only up to you whether you want to dine. You don't have a right to demand that a place be exclusionary just because you think the food is high class.

I should make this clear, I am not spending my evening staring at other people, obsessing over their dress, and crying in my soup that they are wearing shorts. It is just something a take notice of. That's all. Maybe I came down too harshly and made it seem as if this is something that ruins my meal, but I think I've stated a number of times since my original post that that is just not the case.

And I certainly do not think I am better than anyone else. Anyone that knows me personally would say so. I have never demanded that a place be exclusionary. I have never once said that those people don't have the right to dine in a restaurant if that establishment says their dress is fine. I just said that for me, personally, I like my attire to match the general feel of a restaurant. And if it is a higher end restaurant I prefer to get dressed up and think it's nice when others around me do the same. I happen to notice when other's don't. But most of the time I don't even comment on it. It's just something I notice.

I rarely dine at very high end restaurants. I can't afford it. So I can go as high brow and as low brow as anyone out there. But when I go high brow, I like to look nice. Trust me---I'm not alone on this!

I think some of us are discussing different topics and THAT is where the confusion lies. Some people are saying "Is it right for a restaurant to set a dress code?" (to that I say yes) and others are saying "Do you like it when some people are very underdressed for a higher end restaurant or vice versa?"

[Elyssa]

Ladi Kai Lemoni managed to say everything I'm feeling in a much better manner (and apparently less controversial. )

[blakegwinn]

You know, Hitler had a dress code that he enforced on the Jews too...

You've just been Godwinned.

[DonRocks]

You've just been Godwinned.

[invoking Godwin's Law is trite, and doing so masturbatorily is just dirty pool. Carry on as you see fit.]

[slarochelle]

But would it hurt us to express a bit of respect through our attire to our beloved chefs and restaurateurs?

The main problem is that how one shows respect comes down to a matter of opinion. I might think that wearing my most pristine Iron Maiden concert tee shirt shows respect. Most people here would probably disagree, and say it is not appropriate attire for dinner or drinks at Zaytinya (where this thread began). But if the wearer thinks it is appropriate and management thinks it is, then it is. Who am I, as a third party, to say someone's opinion of appropriateness is right or wrong?

If someone's attire bothers me, at best, I have the right to ask management what they think is appropriate so that I am prepared for next time - if I decide there is to be a next time.

[ktmoomau]

The main problem is that how one shows respect comes down to a matter of opinion. I might think that wearing my most pristine Iron Maiden concert tee shirt shows respect. Most people here would probably disagree, and say it is not appropriate attire for dinner or drinks at Zaytinya (where this thread began). But if the wearer thinks it is appropriate and management thinks it is, then it is. Who am I, as a third party, to say someone's opinion of appropriateness is right or wrong?

If someone's attire bothers me, at best, I have the right to ask management what they think is appropriate so that I am prepared for next time - if I decide there is to be a next time.

Aren't you the same person who was asking me about my reservation at the French Laundry? Are you going to wear your Iron Maiden shirt there? Do you think that's appropriate? Sorry just had to comment because I bet you will be dressed nicely.

[Pat]

The main problem is that how one shows respect comes down to a matter of opinion. I might think that wearing my most pristine Iron Maiden concert tee shirt shows respect. Most people here would probably disagree, and say it is not appropriate attire for dinner or drinks at Zaytinya (where this thread began). But if the wearer thinks it is appropriate and management thinks it is, then it is. Who am I, as a third party, to say someone's opinion of appropriateness is right or wrong?

I don't have a strong feeling one way or the other on the dress code issue generally, but, having gone to Zaytinya before a concert at the Verizon Center, it occurs to me that this might be a place where t-shirts (including band shirts) might be expected to pop up on certain evenings. I imagine it's something the management there and at other places nearby know they will be dealing with.

If a restaurant has a stated dress code, I follow it, but I'm not too concerned about how other people comply.

[hm212]

Maybe it depends where you are going, depends what night of the week it is.

I would not dress the same going to Citronelle on a Saturday night as Hell Burger on a Tuesday night.

It is just about being appropriate to your surroundings - Maybe you don't care about that, sometimes I don't care - I think we all know the difference and just a matter of how far you want to stretch.

No different when I went on a cruise ship last month - Formal Night means Formal - did a couple of idiots come to dinner in jeans and get seated - yes. Did I really care that they were out of place while I was in a tuxedo - No.

[DanCole42]

And I certainly do not think I am better than anyone else.

I DO think I'm better than almost everyone else. If I'm at a restaurant wearing my favorite spats and top hat, and someone at the other table is wearing brown flip flops and a wife beater, I get a little squeal of superiority enjoyment inside. "Plebeian."

[Hannah]

I don't have a strong feeling one way or the other on the dress code issue generally, but, having gone to Zaytinya before a concert at the Verizon Center, it occurs to me that this might be a place where t-shirts (including band shirts) might be expected to pop up on certain evenings. I imagine it's something the management there and at other places nearby know they will be dealing with.

If a restaurant has a stated dress code, I follow it, but I'm not too concerned about how other people comply.

As far as that goes, I've worn the appropriate smart casual to pre-concert dinners at Corduroy and changed into appropriate concert attire (t-shirt and shorts/jeans) in the loo after dinner. This was far less puzzling to the staff in the old space, but it seems to work for everyone.

[slarochelle]

Aren't you the same person who was asking me about my reservation at the French Laundry? Are you going to wear your Iron Maiden shirt there? Do you think that's appropriate? Sorry just had to comment because I bet you will be dressed nicely.

(Yes, same person.) If I thought that was appropriate wear for The French Laundry, then I guess it is conceivable I could wear that, right? I mean, in my mind I'd be dressed fine. I'd probably have to reevaluate that opinion when I have trouble getting my 2nd foot in the door though .

My point is, if an establishment does not say what is appropriate - either either on the front door, website, or at the host/hostess stand, etc, then why is my definition of appropriate correct over another patrons?

[Michael Landrum]

What we all need to do here, before this discussion continues any further, is first, to decide with whom we identify:

Judge Smails-click

Al Czervix-click

Ty Webb-click

Danny Noonan

Carl Spackler-click, click

Spaulding-click

Lacy Underalls-click

Maggie O'Houlihan

Mitch Kumstein

Dr. Beeper

Once you have determined your sympathies, announce them at the start of your comments, and then espouse the view which corresponds to the relevant character.

Like in all things, life is merely a macrocosm for Bushwood Country Club, and the truth lies herein.

[dcandohio]

[invoking Godwin's Law is trite, and doing so masturbatorily is just dirty pool. Carry on as you see fit.]

Best. Comment. Ever.

[DonRocks]

(Yes, same person.) If I thought that was appropriate wear for The French Laundry, then I guess it is conceivable I could wear that, right? I mean, in my mind I'd be dressed fine. I'd probably have to reevaluate that opinion when I have trouble getting my 2nd foot in the door though .

My point is, if an establishment does not say what is appropriate - either either on the front door, website, or at the host/hostess stand, etc, then why is my definition of appropriate correct over another patrons?

This recalls Charles Cooley's "Looking-Glass Self," which we all used to joke around with back in the day. Holmes was on the downswing bigtime, but we were all still intimidated as hell - dwarfed, both by his reputation and actual prowess. Well anyway, I was by far the most educated of my peers, and I came up with "I'm not as big as *I* think I am, and I'm not as big as *you* think I am; I'm as big as *I* think *you* think I am." It took them awhile, but they finally caught on and even thought it was funny. You know, when you're feeling like Spud Webb standing next to a bunch of Wilt Chamberlains, what can you do but joke about it, right? Well anyway, I still think a few of them were laughing at me and not with me, but the passage of time has smoothed over that insecurity, to some degree.