New World vs. Old World Palates

[Choirgirl21]

I love wine. I was drawn to it because it fascinates me how much wine can vary, and how much there is to learn about it. Not to mention what happens when you put it together with food. In a lifetime, I couldn't get bored. Not long ago I took a part time job in a winery, for fun. That created more opportunities for me to expand my knowledge, including an invitation to join a group of wine folks who practice blind tasting together. At which point, I learned that I know more than I thought, but yet so little, especially about old world wine, which I tend to avoid because often I don't like it (all boot and no fruit as someone said to me about a highly acidic, not fruit forward Italian wine recently)*.

So I'm committed to expanding my horizons, but as I think about it, I'm reminded of the many times I've been told that I liked new world wines because my palate wasn't advanced yet and it pisses me off. Especially as I sit here drinking a sangiovese from Dry Creek that is rich, fruity, and chocolatey, while remaining balanced and most importantly being delicious!

So what do you think? Is it one or the other? If I start developing my taste for old world wines, will I lose my love of fruit forward new world wines or is it possible to love both? Do you think loving new world wines is a sign of an underdeveloped palate or do you think that's a bunch of bullshit?

*I'm aware that this is all a gross generalization - wine varies so much, and old world wines can be made in the style of new world and vice versa. I've also had plenty of old world wines I've loved, and plenty of new world that I haven't. But, in general, I don't tend to like lean, highly acidic reds that are lacking in fruit (to me this is much of Italian wine) and I don't tend to like the really funky, earthy reds you get out of France. With whites, I'm perhaps more generous, but very austere whites (think Alsace) still don't appeal. I have, in recent years, moved away from the really hot or highly tannic CA cabs and Aussie shiraz's so I feel like I'm more middle of the road these days - give me some earth and acid, but balance it with some good fruit - wines that would probably be considered "elegant" in style.

[jparrott]

My personal opinion is, wines with less fruit, less alcohol, and more acid are more food friendly and refreshing. I also think that the traditional "old world" countries have more producers that care about:

--selection massale (i.e. not using modern, engineered clones)

--encepagement (planting what makes sense on the right sites based on a long track record, rather than fashion or expedience)

--spontaneous fermentations (not using commercial yeasts engineered to promote certain flavors)

--less overt ripeness (for not all varieties is it correct to wait until the seeds are brown and crunchy)

--structure (tannins and acids help a wine go better with food, but many producers are afraid of them)

All of these traits are often summed up in the word "typicity," but the concept of "typicity" has been used a crutch for so much bad wine that it's barely useful anymore.

Our ability to buy these wines, of course, is only due to insane importers who've risked everything on finding a market for them.

That said, drink what you like. Then try Edmunds St. John. YBGYD.

[goodeats]

That said, drink what you like.

Amen.

I love wine. I was drawn to it because it fascinates me how much wine can vary, and how much there is to learn about it. <snip> So I'm committed to expanding my horizons, but as I think about it, I'm reminded of the many times I've been told that I liked new world wines because my palate wasn't advanced yet and it pisses me off.

Honestly - should it matter what they say? They are not you and you are not them. Palates vary by the minute or by the day, depending on your craving, mood, etc.... This is not something to be pissed off over because you are drinking the wine to what you like and not to what they like.*

It's like someone saying that you should [insert blanket statement] without knowing the full picture of your life, you or your situation.

*Unless it's Mark Slater recommending something because majority of the time, he is so great at accessing your mood and tastes that his recommendation hits the spot. Then you should definitely drink it. Of course, it's an assessment based on your taste, but still, since he's vetted it and ordered it to be put on the menu, it must be something he likes as well. </rambling>

[Pool Boy]

Always drink what you like but always keep trying new stuff.

for me, I get bored over time of a given region or varietal. I rarely drink anything from Australia anymore, for example. The more you drink, the more you know and learn and the greater the likelihood that you stumble on to something new that you thought you didn't like, but now you do.

[jparrott]

Honestly - should it matter what they say? They are not you and you are not them. Palates vary by the minute or by the day, depending on your craving, mood, etc.... This is not something to be pissed off over because you are drinking the wine to what you like and not to what they like.

Yes.

But.

If you want to explore "how much there is to learn about [wine]," it pays to take a closer look.

Wine is the only important beverage that isn't cooked. Because of that fact, wine can be held to a higher standard of expressiveness. Expressiveness of site, of soil, of climate, of plant material, of tradition, of a winemaker's vision, of a marketing campaign, of a brand, of a perception or misperception of your tastes. How a wine tastes on a given day is only part of the exploration. And for some of us, the exploration is sometimes more fun than the taste .

So, seek out experiences to help you on that path. Weygandt Wines in Cleveland Park is an excellent place to start. Peter Weygandt's old-world portfolio ranges many different regions and styles, but all the wines have something to say, and the good people there can help you hear it. Other shops that can help you on that path include Arrowine in Arlington, Out of Site Wines in Vienna, and (especially for New World and Rhone wines) Wide World of Wines in Glover Park.

And plenty of restaurants can help, too. The aforementioned Ray's the Steaks (particularly on an early-in-the-week evening when the crush isn't so crazy). Cork (same comment). Vidalia (some excellent New World wines here as well). Proof (same comment). 2 Amys. The wine tasting room at Whole Foods Fair Lakes. Plenty of others.

[Mark Slater]

Amen.

Honestly - should it matter what they say? They are not you and you are not them. Palates vary by the minute or by the day, depending on your craving, mood, etc.... This is not something to be pissed off over because you are drinking the wine to what you like and not to what they like.*

It's like someone saying that you should [insert blanket statement] without knowing the full picture of your life, you or your situation.

*Unless it's Mark Slater recommending something because majority of the time, he is so great at accessing your mood and tastes that his recommendation hits the spot. Then you should definitely drink it. Of course, it's an assessment based on your taste, but still, since he's vetted it and ordered it to be put on the menu, it must be something he likes as well. </rambling>

I have 4 criteria that are essential for me to enjoy a wine. It must be: balanced, elegant, have texture and be delicious. That said, 90% of the wine I buy for Ray's is aimed at my customer's requests and palates, which don't necessarily coincide with my personal tastes. I love it when I sell a good bottle of Bordeaux to a table and see the smiles it brings so that I can say: "That's what Cabernet Sauvignon is SUPPOSED to taste like".

*Jake: Madeiera is cooked.

[jparrott]

*Jake: Madeiera is cooked.

Yes.

[Jeff White]

So what do you think? Is it one or the other? If I start developing my taste for old world wines, will I lose my love of fruit forward new world wines or is it possible to love both? Do you think loving new world wines is a sign of an underdeveloped palate or do you think that's a bunch of bullshit?

Hey Choirgirl21,

Here's what I think. I have but one criteria for wine. It must keep me interested and wanting to come back for more. I enjoy wine from all over the globe although cellar more old than new world. Explore the world of wine and discover the producers whose passion and dedication come through in the wine and stir you. They reside in both Europe and the rest of the wine world. And be sure to try their top level wines, as good producers declassify wine and make different quality levels of bottlings.

Cheers!

Jeff

[DonRocks]

I have but one criteria for wine. It must keep me interested and wanting to come back for more.

I've never expressed it in these exact terms, but this is also my primary criterion. I love fresh-squeezed orange juice, for example, but it's not something that haunts me.

My palate falls unabashedly into what most people would call the Old World category. I value balance over power, elegance over viscosity, acidity over lushness, minerals over jammy fruit, drinkability over excessive alcohol, and terroir over manipulation. The maximum potential a wine has is when the grapes are harvested; from that point forward, it is the vintner's primary responsibility not to screw it up.

Cheers,

Rocks

[Jeff White]

it is the vintner's primary responsibility not to screw it up.

Well put.

[Choirgirl21]

This is not something to be pissed off over because you are drinking the wine to what you like and not to what they like.*

I should probably say "pisses me off" might be an overstatement. I had already had some wine when I posted last night, plus I suck at getting across what I'm thinking often, especially in few enough words that people will actually read my post. :lol

Having said that I do think the comment can come across as insulting since saying something is "less advanced" generally has a negative connotation. I think in the grand scheme of things, I know a good bit about wine and the winemaking process. I'm certainly not an expert, but I'm not a neophyte either. But for whatever reason, because it just doesn't suit me, or because I just haven't drunk enough of it, old world wines often don't appeal to me as much. Does that make me a lesser wine drinker? I guess that's what I was getting at.

Typicity does seem to be the issue at hand. That was explicitly stated to me at the blind tasting practice I did earlier this week, and that's a concept I can really appreciate especially since in regards to food I am so concerned with it being raised sustainably and the 2 often go hand in hand. I do intend to expand my horizons, but was just sort of curious to think what you all thought of the issue. I appreciate the responses so far.

[Choirgirl21]

My palate falls unabashedly into what most people would call the Old World category. I value balance over power, elegance over viscosity, acidity over lushness, minerals over jammy fruit, drinkability over excessive alcohol, and terroir over manipulation. The maximum potential a wine has is when the grapes are harvested; from that point forward, it is the vintner's primary responsibility not to screw it up.

Cheers,

Rocks

Interestingly, I identify with many of those preferences - it may just be an issue of how much one is expressed over the other for me, at least in some cases.

Jeff, how would you describe your wines? I often describe Black Ankle's as new world made in an old world style (our growing and winemaking practices are modeled primarily after Bordeaux's), but ultimately I think ours are somewhere in the middle. Also, with the vines only being planted in 2003/2004 there's no real expression of terroir (whatever that is for MD).

[Choirgirl21]

So, seek out experiences to help you on that path. Weygandt Wines in Cleveland Park is an excellent place to start. Peter Weygandt's old-world portfolio ranges many different regions and styles, but all the wines have something to say, and the good people there can help you hear it. Other shops that can help you on that path include Arrowine in Arlington, Out of Site Wines in Vienna, and (especially for New World and Rhone wines) Wide World of Wines in Glover Park.

And plenty of restaurants can help, too. The aforementioned Ray's the Steaks (particularly on an early-in-the-week evening when the crush isn't so crazy). Cork (same comment). Vidalia (some excellent New World wines here as well). Proof (same comment). 2 Amys. The wine tasting room at Whole Foods Fair Lakes. Plenty of others.

Any places in MD that fit the bill? I was planning to go to a wine bar tomorrow (late afternoon/early evening to avoid being there when it's busy) and ask the bartender to pour me some half pours of wines that are typical for their grape or region and just blind taste them, but obviously a place that has a good wine program and knowledgable staff is key to making this a success. I thought of Proof and Cork immediately, but I wanted to stay more local so I thought I'd try Pure Wine in Ellicott City. I've never been, but I've heard good things from my manager at Black Ankle. I know MD is tough for wine, but if you have any suggestions I'd appreciate them. What about the Ray's in Silver Spring? Although is there a time that that bar isn't packed?

ETA: Sorry for my sequential posts. My msg board skills are failing me today.

[jparrott]

Yeah, Maryland's not really my beat. There is a Jaleo in Bethesda, and they usually do a good job of sorting out modern from traditional Spanish wines.

Also, it sounds like you are in the business (work at a winery and/or tasting room, perhaps?). Most of us here who are disclose it in our sigs.

[Choirgirl21]

Yeah, Maryland's not really my beat. There is a Jaleo in Bethesda, and they usually do a good job of sorting out modern from traditional Spanish wines.

Also, it sounds like you are in the business (work at a winery and/or tasting room, perhaps?). Most of us here who are disclose it in our sigs.

I work 2 days a month in the tasting room at Black Ankle. I never thought to put it in my signature since it's not a full time job/just something I do for fun. I have disclosed it on the rare occasion when I've posted about Black Ankle though.

[JPW]

Any places in MD that fit the bill? I was planning to go to a wine bar tomorrow (late afternoon/early evening to avoid being there when it's busy) and ask the bartender to pour me some half pours of wines that are typical for their grape or region and just blind taste them, but obviously a place that has a good wine program and knowledgable staff is key to making this a success. I thought of Proof and Cork immediately, but I wanted to stay more local so I thought I'd try Pure Wine in Ellicott City. I've never been, but I've heard good things from my manager at Black Ankle. I know MD is tough for wine, but if you have any suggestions I'd appreciate them. What about the Ray's in Silver Spring? Although is there a time that that bar isn't packed?

ETA: Sorry for my sequential posts. My msg board skills are failing me today.

Best place to do that in Monkey County would be Grapeseed in Bethesda. Also, Iron Bridge Wine Company in Columbia. In terms of retail, your best bet is finewine.com in Gaithersburg (the Rio mall).

[Jeff White]

Interestingly, I identify with many of those preferences - it may just be an issue of how much one is expressed over the other for me, at least in some cases.

Jeff, how would you describe your wines? I often describe Black Ankle's as new world made in an old world style (our growing and winemaking practices are modeled primarily after Bordeaux's), but ultimately I think ours are somewhere in the middle. Also, with the vines only being planted in 2003/2004 there's no real expression of terroir (whatever that is for MD).

First, I'm in my tasting room this afternoon and that being slow, am forced to catch up on office work and goof around a little on the computer.

My wines tend to lean French but also exhibit some California like ripeness due to our warm west facing mountain slope. But we do not get near the heat or length of season that other New World regions have. My wines tend to have higher acids, supple tannins, fresh fruit and with the vines now in their 16th leaf, showing a little of our piece of Mother Earth. I also still have some Glen Manor that Jim Law made from 1997, 98 and 99 and these are now showing some very appealing Old World characteristics.