Tipping: Let's Get Rid of It

[Waitman]

Gin-slinging hottie Derek Brown suggests that tipping needs to go. I think I agree, which is why I stiffed that other gin-slinging hottie, Alexandra, last time I went to The Passenger.

As a one-time server and a regular diner, I have a love/hate relationship with tipping. What better way to channel my inner vindictive bitch than stiffing some horrid, indifferent jerk? I can't can't do anything about the war in Afghanistan, the federal debt, my kids' grades or my credit card bills, but I can sure beat up on somebody making $2.77 an hour! On the other hand, since I'm a repressed middle class Caucasian male, I have a hard time expressing the brief but powerful luv that results from a well-orchestrated fine dining experience, so a generous tip gives me an opportunity to say "thank you" in a universal language.

I wonder if including a gratuity/wage in the price would drive down the dining urge. When that $18 entree goes over the $20 mark, or $35 steak pushes past $40, is there a psychological barrier that will keep people home? Also, to what extent are servers disciplined professionals as opposed to (and I say this affectionately, as a former consultant) shameless whores? I feel as though the guy who helped make my solo experience at the French Laundry (where the service charge is included in the price) a memorable one could not have been better if I'd been throwing twenties at him throughout service. On the other hand, the hipster slinging Dale's Pale Ale at the Red Derby may need the positive Pavlovian feedback of a crisp fin every round or two to keep them attentive.

And, there's also the implied bribe/freebie relationship with good buddies -- where the tip mysteriously grows larger as the tab mysteriously grows smaller.

So, the tipping economy: a system created by and for passive-aggressive control freaks, or the free market in its purest -- and most effective -- form?

[Banco]

I feel as though the guy who helped make my solo experience at the French Laundry (where the service charge is included in the price) a memorable one could not have been better if I'd been throwing twenties at him throughout service. On the other hand, the hipster slinging Dale's Pale Ale at the Red Derby may need the positive Pavlovian feedback of a crisp fin every round or two to keep them attentive.

There's your answer: it depends. A European-style gratuity-included system would work at high-end places, but I don't think it would work that well otherwise. But a mixed system would produce legions of confused diners, especially if they're from out of town. I think the whole culture of waiting tables in the US--the way the work is perceived, the ranks from which waiters and waitresses are drawn and the way they are trained (or not)--would have to change fundamentally before tips are abolished in favor of a gratuity-included system. In the meantime, I value the decision-making power the tipping system gives the customer; some of the worst service I've had has been in non-tipping systems, and it's frustrating when 15% of your tab automatically rewards such service.

[Barbara]

Waiter Rant has made a career out of this subject. After reading his second book

I have become exceedingly attentive to the tip issue. Still, I was just struck at how very well Derek expressed his opinion. The boy sure can write!

[Choirgirl21]

I just got back from Australia a few weeks ago. We do not want to abolish tipping, trust me.

[DonRocks]

I think we should change all professions - hell, the entire economy - to be tip-based.

"And you'd better not mess up this appendectomy!"

"What do you mean my car needs a new transmission?"

"Sorry, your hotel room just didn't tickle my fancy."

[Sthitch]

I just got back from Australia a few weeks ago. We do not want to abolish tipping, trust me.

There is no tipping in Japan and without exception I have found the service there to be exemplary.

[Anna Phor]

I've waited tables in an non-tip economy (in Australia, in fact!). I made $12/hour in the mid nineties, which at the time was the minimum legal wage you could pay someone for that work. (Incidentally, that was EXACTLY the same amount of money I made at my first job in the US a year later. For that money in the US, I was teaching kids in college.)

In my experience in both tip and non-tip economies, the level of service doesn't really change much whether or not there is tipping. Whether or not you are good at your job and nice to people is much more dependent on personality--there are good and bad servers on both sides of this coin (no pun intended). What you DON'T get in non-tip economies is precisely the relationship Waitman described above where you foster a relationship with a bartender at your regular.

But changing from a tip to a non-tip economy would be a big cultural shift. When I first came to the US, I found tipping very difficult. I fundamentally didn't get how the interpersonal interaction was supposed to go. I am not the boss of this person, but I am expected to pay them. Do I hand the money over? Do I leave the money on the table? (If you did that where I'm from, it wouldn't be there by the time the waiter came by to clear up.) So I imagine there would be similar cultural shifts going the other way--and Choirgirl, I'd love to hear more about your experiences in Australia--especially how much of the difference you think is attributable to non-tipping, and how much just to cultural difference.

[Banco]

There is no tipping in Japan and without exception I have found the service there to be exemplary.

That's because it's Japan.

[Banco]

OK, I'll be the first: "What did the leper say to the whore?"

[cjsadler]

Gin-slinging hottie Derek Brown suggests that tipping needs to go.

So does this mean the Passenger has moved to a "service charge included" system?

[DaRiv18]

Pretty much everytime I've gone to a Chinatown Chinese restaurant (particularly Chinatown Express), I've often seen a table leave and, seconds later, the server running after those customers. The Chinese server explains to the (usually European) diner that in America, you're supposed to tip 15%, and would you please give me another $5? I know that's off-topic somewhat, but had to share, it gets me everytime.

[Ericandblueboy]

That's because it's Japan.

Damn straight. That shit don't work in China.

[astrid]

I don’t mind tipping. I mentally add about 30% a tab while ordering. I would actually prefer a wider spread to be in vogue – 25-30% for exceptional service, 18% for good service, 5-10% for negligent service, and 1 cent for terrible service. If everyone did that rather than be polite and give 15% to gibbering idiots, maybe we would all get good service in restaurants.

In my practice, that philosophy runs aground when the food is good but the service is appalling. So I want to stiff the imbecile, but then I'm afraid someone will spit in my food next time.

[astrid]

In Mainland China, you browbeat your wait person for service and tip for "service".

[SeanMike]

So does this mean the Passenger has moved to a "service charge included" system?

This came up on Twitter between Derek and Fritz Hahn.

Columbia Room (Derek's part, where it's a flat fee system) has salaried employees.

Passenger, apparently, is more Tom's domain. He didn't comment that I saw, but I don't think he's on the Twitters.

[mtpleasanteater]

I thought the service was fine in New Zealand, where you don't tip and the culture is pretty different than Japan.

[goodeats]

NYTimes Magazine article by a classmate, done algorithmically.

[dcs]

There is no tipping in Japan and without exception I have found the service there to be exemplary.

That's because it's Japan.

And now the practice arrives at a Sushi restaurant in Midtown Manhattan.

[Jeff Heineman]

Pretty interesting that the restaurant already Kept the Tips, and paid salaries, yet when they banned tipping they jacked the prices 15%.

Also, the customer in the article said she was happy with the policy BUT if service was bad she would want the old system back

I think a no tipping world would be great, but prices would go up and everyone would have to take the bad with the good.

[Bart]

NYTimes Magazine article by a classmate, done algorithmically.

You went to school with Nate Silver!?!? Wow.

For those that don't know him, in the last election, he successfully predicted the electoral outcome of every single state and (I think) all the congressional elections. He was predicting Obama to win by a wide margin for months prior to the election and was the whipping boy of lots of right wing media outlets as being just another liberal media type shilling for Obama. Turns out, he's just a guy who pours over tons of data, does some statistical analysis and and bats at nearly 1000 in the prediction business.

[Anna Phor]

This is long--a series of multiple blog posts, but one of the best things I've read recently. http://jayporter.com/dispatches/observations-from-a-tipless-restaurant-part-1-overview/

An extended essay on tipping from the point of view of a San Diego restarauteur who implemented a straight service charge and disallowed tipping in his establishment. He has a lot to say on why he thinks eliminating tipping made his restaurant better--because it meant that the employees were paid by the person who had the most at stake in making the restaurant good, namely their employer, rather than their customers, who have as a key goal making their own dining experience good. And that it means that servers don't act to maximize tips but are more likely to act to maximize performance (which is a different thing).

He also has a lot of very interesting stuff to say about people who get pissed off when they can't tip--that basically one of the things that he learned was that some people like the kind of power relation that emerges when they get to reward or punish their server; and also a lot to say about how servers and management use stereotypes to figure out who they think is likely to tip more, and how this means that some folks get worse service because it is assumed they will tip less.

[Gary Tanigawa]

omotenashi

[dcs]

No-tip restaurant offers food for thought on pay, benefits

[darkstar965]

This is another example from Pittsburgh that has gotten a lot of attention online, offline and even including national TV.

"Hold That Tip: Strip District Restaurant Bar Marco To Embrace National Trend, But Will Pittsburgh Follow?" by Melissa McCart on post-gazette.com

It will be fascinating to see how these cases play out. These entrepreneurs are trail blazers with big hearts you have to admire. On the other hand, no one benefits when restaurants struggle or go out of business. The management theory being tested here is whether there are durable links between more predictable server compensation, retention/productivity and overall business profit. I sure hope so. It would be transformative if these efforts prove successful.

[DaveO]

Here is a lousy story, which I'm reporting second hand.  Somebody in the industry was griping and showed me his/her CC receipt for a meal at a restaurant.  The person, as is their standard form of operating, had a meal at a restaurant, paid with a cc and wrote in 0 on the tip total.  Then included cash.  They referenced the amount they left.

The recipient wrote in a tip  (20% less than the cash that was left).   RATS.  Double dipping.

The person who had the meal was from the industry and tends to leave large tips (better than 15 or 20%) and leaves them as cash, thus favoring the server and giving them more flexibility than what is reported to or by the restaurant.

Very lousy response by the server.   Its the kind of restaurant that I'd never return to and its the kind of server that I'd make sure I never had serve me again.   Most people in the FOH are extremely appreciative of that type of gratuity in terms of amount, percentage and form of payment.

....and then some ruin it for the industry.

[darkstar965]

Here is a lousy story, which I'm reporting second hand. Somebody in the industry was griping and showed me his/her CC receipt for a meal at a restaurant. The person, as is their standard form of operating, had a meal at a restaurant, paid with a cc and wrote in 0 on the tip total. Then included cash. They referenced the amount they left.

The recipient wrote in a tip (20% less than the cash that was left). RATS. Double dipping.

The person who had the meal was from the industry and tends to leave large tips (better than 15 or 20%) and leaves them as cash, thus favoring the server and giving them more flexibility than what is reported to or by the restaurant.

Very lousy response by the server. Its the kind of restaurant that I'd never return to and its the kind of server that I'd make sure I never had serve me again. Most people in the FOH are extremely appreciative of that type of gratuity in terms of amount, percentage and form of payment.

....and then some ruin it for the industry.

That's not about the industry. It's about the individual. And, "double dipping" is but a euphemism for dishonesty. There are dishonest people in all industries, all roles and all levels. Luckily, the great majority are honest.

[aaronsinger]

I often do that (pay with credit but leave a cash tip), though I don't dine at fancy restaurants so much as bars and such. I hope it doesn't come across as annoying or weird, though I don't see why it would.

[DonRocks]

That's not about the industry. It's about the individual. And, "double dipping" is but a euphemism for dishonesty. There are dishonest people in all industries, all roles and all levels. Luckily, the great majority are honest.

I often do that (pay with credit but leave a cash tip), though I don't dine at fancy restaurants so much as bars and such. I hope it doesn't come across as annoying or weird, though I don't see why it would.

Just to let you know, many restaurants (I won't say most) would prefer the entire bill, including tip, be left on the card for this very reason. Have you ever been at a bar for a couple of hours, and then the bartender says, "This last one's on me?" Well, that's often so you'll leave a larger tip, and he's using house money to entice you with, so has nothing to lose.

I was once at Giordano's at Chicago, paid cash for a drink, and saw the bartender ring up a no-sale at the register. It happens, more often than we'd like to think - keeping things digital is one way of keeping things more on the up-and-up. Of course you have the other case of restaurateurs stealing money from their customers, the government, or their employees, so it can work both ways.

"50 Ways Employees Steal From Your Bar Or Restaurant" on blog.bodellconsulting.com (coincidentally, I've already covered #1 and #50).

Other than The Swiss Bakery, are there currently any area restaurants that refuse tips? I remember some talk about it recently, but can't remember if any have opened, or are still open (I believe The Columbia Room was one?). What I *can* remember is promising I'd tout the ones who don't take tips, and this is why I keep mentioning The Swiss Bakery (and incidentally, I have them ranked above Georgetown Cupcake in The Dining Guide, but that's because even though I like Georgetown Cupcake well enough, I think The Swiss Bakery has better product). Why are they never mentioned in the media?

[porcupine]

Other than The Swiss Bakery, are there currently any area restaurants that refuse tips?

BreadFurst.

[DaveO]

 Just to let you know, many restaurants (I won't say most) would prefer the entire bill, including tip, be left on the card for this very reason. 

Maybe.  I wouldn't know across the board.  What it does do is add a total..probably somewhere in the 10-20% of gross sales in tips on the total cc processing and then the merchant pays a cc processing fee on FOH tips.

Not a big deal overall, but a big deal if the restaurant is not doing great.  CC fees can add up and overall if they weren't there that would pay for a lot of other overhead.

I often do that (pay with credit but leave a cash tip), though I don't dine at fancy restaurants so much as bars and such. I hope it doesn't come across as annoying or weird, though I don't see why it would.

FOH people love it.  If you are paying in cash, the server has discretion on what they declare for tax purposes.  It really helps them out.

The topic of tips is a gray area topic in my experience.  There are experienced and great FOH personnel.  They probably make a lot through tips and wouldn't want to see it go.   (That has been referenced elsewhere)  On the other hand, theoretically if it was aboloshed and BOH earned more...that would be a plus for some in the restaurant industry.

[darkstar965]

BreadFurst.

In case readers missed it and are interested.

http://www.donrockwell.com/index.php?/topic/46254-mark-furstenberg-on-tipping/

[porcupine]

No tipping at William Street Common in Philadelphia.

[DonRocks]

Although this policy has not been finalized, Black Iron Pizza does not take tips!

[darkstar965]

Although this policy has not been finalized, Black Iron Pizza does not take tips!

I'd love to see this become pervasive but think it pretty unlikely simply because restaurant survival will always trump any social cause, hie ever good. And, the kind of systemic/industry/governmental change needed is at odds with too many powerful vested interests, including those of the best and most sought-after servers.

As always, can never say never and hope I'm proven wrong.

[Pool Boy]

"Why Some Restaurants Are Doing Away With Tipping" by Maura Judkis on washingtonpost.com

The inherent issue I see for tipping to go away is how do restaurants really compete evenly when some refuse to ditch the practice and others maintain it?  The article points out that some restaurants choose to implement a standard fee to all dining checks as an administrative charge. The example given was 20%. This, in essence, is implementing a systemic tip for all, without forcing the restaurant owner to actually raise prices. Others indicate their desire to just raise their prices 15 to 20% overall. But the latter restaurant owners face handicapping themselves by doing so since all of their prices will appear higher than competing restaurants. Additionally, the local sales/dining taxes for the restaurant will go up if the price per dish goes up as opposed to the restaurant owners choosing instead to impose an administrative fee (assuming the admin fee is not sales/dining taxable, which may also vary by given local taxing districts (adding further confusion).

For the diner, looking at two similar restaurant menus (online or in person), one place has higher prices (even if they indicate no tipping) while the other place has lower prices (and probably fine-prints the admin fee). Further, places that refuse to leave the tipping practice at all, those places look even cheaper, leaving the concept of tipping to the diner, still.

It's a mess and will be more so as places experiment with what works and what does not.  It sure would be a lot easier if the government come up with rules to abolish the practice systemically, but I am sure those that prefer to 'let the markets decide' would cry bloody murder over government interference.

Ah well.

[fuzzy510]

The article points out that some restaurants choose to implement a standard fee to all dining checks as an administrative charge. The example given was 20%.

This is still a gratuity.  Literally the only difference between this and the system that we currently operate under is that if I suck as a server, you're allowed to express that by docking my tip.

Meanwhile, since it's an "administrative charge," and not actually a gratuity, that means that the restaurant can legally take part of it for themselves even though they're implying that it's really a gratuity.

How is this better than the current setup, exactly?

[darkstar965]

This is still a gratuity.  Literally the only difference between this and the system that we currently operate under is that if I suck as a server, you're allowed to express that by docking my tip.

Meanwhile, since it's an "administrative charge," and not actually a gratuity, that means that the restaurant can legally take part of it for themselves even though they're implying that it's really a gratuity.

How is this better than the current setup, exactly?

The one enacting the policy would say it enables her to better distribute deserved rewards across more of her staff.

My answer:  It's not.

[Pool Boy]

Article today....interesting.

[DaveO]

Article today....interesting.

Saw that article also and thought it so interesting, especially in light of conversations about this topic at DR, earlier reference to this restaurant in DR etc.

Who whouldda thunk through all of that and expected the results being reported.  That story suggests follow up with customers and with employees.

[Bart]

I don't understand this relationship, but maybe someone does???
 
From the article in the link above:

"Since getting rid of tipping on April 1, profits have increased from about $3,000 a week to $9,000.
"Our water bill was cut in half, our linen bill was cut in half, our liquor inventory was lean," Fry told Entrepreneur, crediting it all to greater employee cognizance."

How does employee cognizance lower the linen bill or affect the liquor inventory? And could those things really make a $6K difference per week?!?!

[Pool Boy]

Their revenue also increased 7K according to the article.

[DaveO]

The article referenced by PoolBoy on the 18th is so interesting for restaurateurs and for people who work in the industry.  It describes how profits have soared for the Pittsburgh restaurant that dropped tipping and added a surcharge.

Revenues have gone up.  Maybe that is because the surcharge.  But it could be other things.  It could be that the staff is working really hard and smart, upselling, and giving such great service that more customers are coming, there is more positive word of mouth and reviews.   Maybe.  We don't know the details.

Some costs dropped a lot.  Boy is that interesting.  It could be both a function of the change in pay and the granting of ownership shares of stock by the owner to employees...but I bet its a lot more.

When water bills drop and laundry costs drop it means the management has communicated and the staff has bought in to items that have a dear dear effect on the bottom line.

The owner or bill payer isn't able to turn off every faucet, or filter every piece of linen before it goes to the cleaner.  The staff is buying into that and acting on it because it matters to them.  They get pay.  They get a share of profits.  They now have health benefits.   It means more to them.  If the costs that can be controlled are being controlled...they are sharing in the benefits.

Its a great story.  I'd like to know more.

[Pool Boy]

The article referenced by PoolBoy on the 18th is so interesting for restaurateurs and for people who work in the industry.  It describes how profits have soared for the Pittsburgh restaurant that dropped tipping and added a surcharge.

Revenues have gone up.  Maybe that is because the surcharge.  But it could be other things.  It could be that the staff is working really hard and smart, upselling, and giving such great service that more customers are coming, there is more positive word of mouth and reviews.   Maybe.  We don't know the details.

Some costs dropped a lot.  Boy is that interesting.  It could be both a function of the change in pay and the granting of ownership shares of stock by the owner to employees...but I bet its a lot more.

When water bills drop and laundry costs drop it means the management has communicated and the staff has bought in to items that have a dear dear effect on the bottom line.

The owner or bill payer isn't able to turn off every faucet, or filter every piece of linen before it goes to the cleaner.  The staff is buying into that and acting on it because it matters to them.  They get pay.  They get a share of profits.  They now have health benefits.   It means more to them.  If the costs that can be controlled are being controlled...they are sharing in the benefits.

Its a great story.  I'd like to know more.

Me too!

[cucas87]

Interesting article in Gothamist and Market Watch: Per Se to pay $500K for withholding tips from workers.
 

[DonRocks]

This is really unfortunate.  Did you speak with a manager?  Establishing a reputation for good service is important for any new restaurant, but especially for one trying to upend the tipping culture.

I'm sure Sally's Middle Name knows I'm a fan of theirs and want to help them. They'd be doing customers a favor if they would simply raise their prices on every item by 18% and not add it at the end. The problem is that things that are a nice, round figure such as $6 are going to be odd prices like $7.08, and therein lies the rub.

But a solution would be to price certain things at $7, and others at $7.25, and make it all work out in the end. And yet, they're still obligated to keep an accounting of "sales price" vs. "service charge" and that puts an additional burden on them. I suppose they could just multiply their total revenues by 15.25%, and that would equal an 18% service charge (trust me, non-accountants, it would).

A somewhat lesser solution (but still a solution) would be to *clearly state* that they add an 18% service charge on top of the bill, and that they don't accept tips (I kind of thought they did this, but I guess I'm wrong).

You know, I suspect this isn't an institutional issue, so much as one employee writing the wrong thing on the chalkboard - they've made it pretty clear what they're doing. Instead of, "No need to tip, service is included," the board should say "We add an 18% service charge to your bill so all our employees are fairly compensated - there is no need to tip." (That's a bit verbose, but I'm sure they can figure it out.) 

I really think this is a one-off incident. Rieux, you should keep in mind that the servers here are not up-selling you so they can get additional tip money - that, in and of itself, is a big deal, and something we should all be supporting. It could ultimately lead to a "server" being a profession rather than a job, and that's what I've been fighting for over the past ten years.

[DaveO]

As it regards the service and the non tipping "strategy".....

I was underwhelmed last night.  My friend and I got there at 8:30 and were able to get a table for 2 immediately.  My main criticisms, which are substantial, are the service and the noise.  The food was fine, but no where near good enough to make up for the other two issues.

We ordered a small plate of the kohlrabi salad and the fried pickled chard stems, a beer, and a glass of wine.  Starting up front, and throughout the meal, service was awful.  There were at least 4 servers for the small restaurant, but none seemed particularly invested in our table, and the service was 100% inattentive.  To start, our two plates came out, and my friend's beer, and it was at least 15 minutes until I got my glass of wine.  And, I was unable to tell anyone I was still waiting, as not a single one of the servers, who rushed by the table, paused long enough for me to even be able to catch their eye or to call out to them.  Finally I got my wine later.  The kohlrabi salad was fine.  Not bad, not great.  It was something I could make at home.  I loved the pickled chard stems, and I think they were one of the highlights of the meal.  We ordered some more plates, but noticed that they were already out of 2 of the 4 meat dishes by 8:30 -- there were substitutes, but they were not terribly interesting -- a chicken breast and thigh.  We decided to order the rabbit leg, the quail, the beans and tomatoes, 2 corns, and shitake mushrooms with pesto.  They came out in dribs and drabs, but the dirty plates were rarely taken away when new dishes were dropped, which I thought was weird, as the server was right there.  They didn't stay long enough for me to ask them to take the dirty dishes away.  That was frustrating.

Of the food, the rabbit was fine (basically tasted like fried chicken), the beans and tomatoes were the other best dish of the night, the corn was just like any elote I have had in Mexico or on the street, the quail was briny, with lots of capers, but tough and a minuscule portion for the price, and the mushrooms were mushrooms with pesto - nothing special.  We each ordered another glass of wine, and had dessert - blueberry pie with peach ice cream (which had no discernible peach flavor) and poundcake with tart cherries for me (which was a butter-soaked toasted pound cake that was too rich).

None of the food was bad, but none of it was amazing.  I felt like I could make all these things at home, armed with a stable of Ottolenghi's cookbooks.  The noise was terrible.  I am young, I like to party, but man!  First, a loud table of 6 people in their twenties took the table by the window and proceeded to scream, yell, and be obnoxious all night, but they were encouraged by the waiter, who would spend minutes on end with them hooting and hollering (perhaps contributing to our poor service, but hey, there were 3 other waiters, where were they?)  Most of the other patrons in the restaurant looked around annoyed, but the waiter continued to goad the table on.  Second, the acoustics are weird. We were sitting near the bar, and when I went to the bathroom, over all the noise, I could hear my friend ordering our dessert from far away, in a closed room.  Sound REALLY carries.

Finally, we were annoyed by the service charge.  Not by its existence, but by its execution.  The menu board says "No need to tip, service is included".  Verbatim.  So, one would assume that the prices on the menu board include service.  But, that is not the case, the bill has a service charge added ON TOP of the menu prices.  So, perhaps saying that "serivce is included" is not the best approach.  Given the horrible service we had, maybe we were just touchy, but it galled us to realize this when we got the bill.  I don't think I'll be back.

The service was lousy and non attentive.   Here is a reference to the restaurant in Pittsburgh that had gotten acclaim for converting to a non tipping policy.   But they did a lot more:

The article referenced by PoolBoy on the 18th is so interesting for restaurateurs and for people who work in the industry.  It describes how profits have soared for the Pittsburgh restaurant that dropped tipping and added a surcharge.

Revenues have gone up.  Maybe that is because the surcharge.  But it could be other things.  It could be that the staff is working really hard and smart, upselling, and giving such great service that more customers are coming, there is more positive word of mouth and reviews.   Maybe.  We don't know the details.

Some costs dropped a lot.  Boy is that interesting.  It could be both a function of the change in pay and the granting of ownership shares of stock by the owner to employees...but I bet its a lot more.

When water bills drop and laundry costs drop it means the management has communicated and the staff has bought in to items that have a dear dear effect on the bottom line.

The owner or bill payer isn't able to turn off every faucet, or filter every piece of linen before it goes to the cleaner.  The staff is buying into that and acting on it because it matters to them.  They get pay.  They get a share of profits.  They now have health benefits.   It means more to them.  If the costs that can be controlled are being controlled...they are sharing in the benefits.

Its a great story.  I'd like to know more.

They gave staff profit sharing.  Various costs went down and profits increased.  Staff got higher salaries and benefits including health care.  It would be interesting to get further follow ups to see if the trends from that article have continued.

It would appear that the experience described above is so different from what was reported about the Pittsburgh restaurant.  Pittsburgh probably saw a big improvement in efforts by the staff.  Here on H Street, not so much.   And frankly a server goading loud customers to get louder might be funny in a neighborhood bar or a college bar but not in a restaurant.  Miles to go on this one.

Frankly I'm not bothered by tipping.  If the restaurant is going to add a service charge I'm not going to tip.  I'd expect that they tried to implement what seems to be implemented in Pittsburgh.   If not...then its a meaningless change in my mind.

[Rieux]

This is really unfortunate.  Did you speak with a manager?  Establishing a reputation for good service is important for any new restaurant, but especially for one trying to upend the tipping culture.

We didn't as it was totally unclear which member of the crazed staff running around was the manager, and, by this point we just wanted to get out of there and go home.  I almost always tip 20%, so it wasn't the amount or the fact that there was a service charge, it was the way it was communicated.  I didn't want to complain and either have the manager think I didn't get the concept of a service charge, or think I was complaining to be cheap.

[Kev29]

I was waiting for this issue to come up (I wasn't going to be the one to open the can of worms). Adding an 18% service charge is not a 'no tipping policy' -- it's a mandatory tipping policy. Workers are still relying on covers and checks to bolster their earnings, customers are adding to their bill total (and not at their discretion). A no tipping culture exists at a pub in England when a beer costs £3.80 and you hand the bartender £3.80 and walk away with said beer.

[DonRocks]

I was waiting for this issue to come up (I wasn't going to be the one to open the can of worms). Adding an 18% service charge is not a 'no tipping policy' -- it's a mandatory tipping policy. Workers are still relying on covers and checks to bolster their earnings, customers are adding to their bill total (and not at their discretion). A no tipping culture exists at a pub in England when a beer costs £3.80 and you hand the bartender £3.80 and walk away with said beer.

There really is a difference between a service charge and a tip. The service charge goes to the restaurant, gets pooled among all non-management workers (at least in theory), and wards off virtually all incentive of an up-sell (at least on a one-on-one basis, where the entire tip from the up-sell goes into the server's pocket - that $8 dessert the server just talked you into buying gets the server an extra $1.50 in tip). That alone is a big difference, and I would argue that simply "raising their prices 18% across the board" is also a mandatory service charge, the difference being that diners like Rieux aren't ever led down the wrong path.

All this said, from a diner's perspective, it's all pretty much one-and-the-same, and that's why I think restaurants should raise prices and *not* add the service charge to the total. I will again cite our area's shining-star example of leadership on this front: The Swiss Bakery. They have my undying loyalty.

Another philosophical question: What's the difference between adding sales tax at the end, and adding the service charge at the end? (Yes, I think it would be wonderful if every business displayed prices that included sales tax as well, so the customer knew *exactly* what they'd be paying for something, but I see this as the exact same situation, with the exception that sales tax is more commonly accepted as being an add-on.) It's that psychological game of seeing a price that says $9.95 instead of $13.10, and it's partially the customers' fault for succumbing to this sales tactic so easily. Interestingly, do you know what businesses are absolute leaders on this front? Gas stations.

[Tujague]

None of the food was bad, but none of it was amazing.  I felt like I could make all these things at home, armed with a stable of Ottolenghi's cookbooks.  The noise was terrible.  I am young, I like to party, but man!  First, a loud table of 6 people in their twenties took the table by the window and proceeded to scream, yell, and be obnoxious all night, but they were encouraged by the waiter, who would spend minutes on end with them hooting and hollering (perhaps contributing to our poor service, but hey, there were 3 other waiters, where were they?)  Most of the other patrons in the restaurant looked around annoyed, but the waiter continued to goad the table on.  Second, the acoustics are weird. We were sitting near the bar, and when I went to the bathroom, over all the noise, I could hear my friend ordering our dessert from far away, in a closed room.  Sound REALLY carries.

Finally, we were annoyed by the service charge.  Not by its existence, but by its execution.  The menu board says "No need to tip, service is included".  Verbatim.  So, one would assume that the prices on the menu board include service.  But, that is not the case, the bill has a service charge added ON TOP of the menu prices.  So, perhaps saying that "serivce is included" is not the best approach.  Given the horrible service we had, maybe we were just touchy, but it galled us to realize this when we got the bill.  I don't think I'll be back.

This comment about service (or the acoustics) doesn't totally surprise me. I didn't really want to share this, but there is at least one person on the wait staff there whose behavior borders on the unprofessional and even inappropriate. There's a line between being friendly and trying to be friends with your customers and co-workers, and I think the owners need to be better attuned to that behavior and reining it in. On my first visit, this guy was practicing tai chi moves in the kitchen area to entertain his co-workers, which was a bit discomfiting--even if the place is nearly empty, you still have customers, and you're on the clock. The next visit, he pulled up on the stool next to me and got very palsy-walsy with me, nearly to the point of oversharing (I honestly wondered if he was stoned). Yes, have a relaxed, friendly atmosphere, but please--boundaries (and leading table cheers? C'mon, this isn't Chuck E. Cheese).

And yeah, I agree that the execution of the service charge is annoying. Most of what's bothersome about the place is fixable, but sometimes it feels like landing in an episode of "Portlandia," relocated to DC.

[Bart]

I really think this is a one-off incident. Rieux, you should keep in mind that the servers here are not up-selling you so they can get additional tip money - that, in and of itself, is a big deal, and something we should all be supporting. It could ultimately lead to a "server" being a profession rather than a job, and that's what I've been fighting for over the past ten years.

I'm not following you Don.

Isn't a server going to make more money if (s)he upsells you on 2 apps instead of 3, or the most expensive entrée vs a cheaper one? How does the addition of a percentage based service charge remove the motivation to pad the bill?

[DonRocks]

I'm not following you Don.

Isn't a server going to make more money if (s)he upsells you on 2 apps instead of 3, or the most expensive entrée vs a cheaper one? How does the addition of a percentage based service charge remove the motivation to pad the bill?

Because (unless I'm misunderstanding how they're distributing their service charge) this 18% does not go to the server; it goes to the restaurant, and the restaurant either:

1) keeps it (assuming their normally tipped employees are being paid a higher wage that accounts for the absence of tips), or

2) distributes it among all the normally tipped employees - perhaps equally, perhaps based on some other (presumably equitable) system.

What that 18% service charge *doesn't do* is go straight to the server. And that's why I think it's a giant leap in the right direction.

Now, I'm not saying it's impossible that a restaurant couldn't take advantage of normally tipped employees using this method, but there is *absolutely NO* reason to think Sally's Middle Name is doing such a thing - in fact, this discussion probably shouldn't even be in this thread because of "guilt by association." I'm all for Sally's Middle Name using this method, and I trust they that they're doing the right thing with this service charge; if they weren't, word would get out quickly in this internet-driven world.

[jayandstacey]

DonRocks, on 21 Jul 2015 - 2:09 PM, said:

Because (unless I'm misunderstanding how they're distributing their service charge) this 18% does not go to the server; it goes to the restaurant, and the restaurant either:

 

1) keeps it (assuming their normally tipped employees are being paid a higher wage that accounts for the absence of tips), or

2) distributes it among all the normally tipped employees - perhaps equally, perhaps based on some other (presumably equitable) system.

 

What that 18% service charge *doesn't do* is go straight to the server. And that's why I think it's a giant leap in the right direction.

 

Now, I'm not saying it's impossible that a restaurant couldn't take advantage of normally tipped employees using this method, but there is *absolutely NO* reason to think Sally's Middle Name is doing such a thing - in fact, this discussion probably shouldn't even be in this thread because of "guilt by association." I'm all for Sally's Middle Name using this method, and I trust they that they're doing the right thing with this service charge; if they weren't, word would get out quickly in this internet-driven world.

 

According to Jessica Sidman's article:

 

Quote

At their new H Street NE restaurant, Sally's Middle Name, owners Sam and Aphra Adkins have decided to forgo the traditional gratuity system. Instead, an 18 percent "service charge" will be automatically added to every check. That money will be split evenly between front and back of the house employees.

...

No one at Sally's Middle Name will make less than $10 per hour plus their share of the service charge.

 

Sorry, but I believe the average diner will simply see this as forced tipping.  How is this different from the "18% gratuity for parties of 6 or more" which smacks of "we don't trust you to tip appropriately in these situations, so we'll force it."  This seems forced and while the intent to pay the staff better is honorable, the execution seems doomed to fail.   
 
And I don't think it will have an appreciable difference in terms of "upsell" for a few reasons:
1. Aren't there other places that pool tips, or at least share tips (i.e., the busser is tipped by the waiter)?
2. They are still incentivized, just in a less direct way
3. There is a lot of research (you can Google) that suggests that the extra $1.50 isn't an incentive.  What might be a more powerful incentive is that the upsell is taught and then recognized by management, and a pat on the back is earned.   Seems a little counter-intuitive but I believe the 'upsell' is due to a list of factors, of which the $1.50 incentive is low on that list, if it is at all.   
 
So, the real root question.  Why don't they just build it into the price?  It can't be simply the accounting effort.   I suspect rather it is a tax issue - they'd rather not pay the tax on the revenue as if it were like the rest of the f&b revenue.  That's my guess and if I'm wrong...well, again, the execution of this led me to think about why the rigmarole.  As noted above, just charge 3.80 and give me a drink that costs me 3.80.   Every other retailer has figured this out.
 
(edit - PS, I've never been to this place.  I'm commenting on the concepts only. I am for the removal of the whole tipping genre...but this doesn't seem the way to do it)

[DonRocks]

Sorry, but I believe the average diner will simply see this as forced tipping.

...

I am for the removal of the whole tipping genre.

Like it or not, removal of the whole tipping genre will involve raising prices by 18%, in some form or another.

By all means, come up with better suggestions on how to implement it - I'm sure the industry will be interested in hearing your viewpoints.

I've been saying for years that I will support any restaurants that take the risk to do away with this ridiculous tipping system we have. I have done so, consistently, with The Swiss Bakery, and will continue do so with Sally's Middle Name. It won't have any effect on their Dining Guide rating, that much I can promise you, but I will continue to be a vocal advocate of restaurants that provide better base pay for the people that need it the most: prep cooks, line cooks, dishwashers, runners, busers, hosts, and even sous chefs and AGMs (AGMs being the profession that perhaps gets hosed most of all because they're often college-educated, don't get paid squat, work 60-70 hours a week, and do not participate in the tipping system). Not chefs, not GMs, not bartenders, and not servers, many of whom make six figures while their harder-working co-workers are living in poverty, often without insurance, retirement, or other benefits. Their bodies give out by the time they're 50 years old, and then they're replaced with younger workers and forgotten.

[jayandstacey]

Like it or not, removal of the whole tipping genre will involve raising prices by 18%, in some form or another.

By all means, come up with better suggestions on how to implement it - I'm sure the industry will be interested in hearing your viewpoints.

I've been saying for years that I will support any restaurants that take the risk to do away with this ridiculous tipping system we have. I have done so, consistently, with The Swiss Bakery, and will continue do so with Sally's Middle Name. It won't have any effect on their Dining Guide rating, that much I can promise you, but I will continue to be a vocal advocate of restaurants that provide better base pay for the people that need it the most: prep cooks, line cooks, dishwashers, runners, busers, hosts, and even sous chefs and AGMs (AGMs being the profession that perhaps gets hosed most of all because they're often college-educated, don't get paid squat, work 60-70 hours a week, and do not participate in the tipping system). Not chefs, not GMs, not bartenders, and not servers, many of whom make six figures while their harder-working co-workers are living in poverty, often without insurance, retirement, or other benefits. Their bodies give out by the time they're 50 years old, and then they're replaced with younger workers and forgotten.

I don't mind prices going up by 18%.  Or by 400% or whatever.

The solution is simple:

- List the price of the menu items.

- Have a no-tip policy.

That's it.

Begin to include separate line items for "service charges" and such and now I'm feeling nickle-and-dimed, and I'm also feeling like the option to not tip was taken from me.   Just charge $x for an item, with no special extra charges, and I'm fine (no matter what the price is for that item).

This is perception, not math.

I get that when I pay for an item, part of what I'm paying goes to purchase the ingredients, part goes to pay the rent, part goes to make the next payment on the restaurant owner's new car.   That's fine and true of any retail store.  I also get that some restaurants cost more than others, sometimes MUUUCCCHHH more.   The value is in the experience, to include the food, the ambience, the service and such.

So why am I asked to segregate a line item specifically for the service in a place that is touting to be an alternative to tipping?   Is the restaurant trying to meet a particular price point for the menu items?   Are they trying to avoid revenue taxes by treating that money differently?

Flip it over - let's say you go to a hardware store and get some advice, then you get a 18% service charge added at checkout...what?

How about they just raise their prices accordingly and leave it at that?

Decent restaurants aren't super price sensitive.  They aren't.  I'm not saying they can't charge just anything...but as the Pittsburg example shows us, I'm sure there could be 18% or more room for price increases if the perception is positive...and isn't the restaurant business, as a hospitality industry, heavily reliant upon good perception?

18% service charges aren't the antidote to tipping.

[DonRocks]

I don't mind prices going up by 18%.  Or by 400% or whatever.

The solution is simple:

- List the price of the menu items.

- Have a no-tip policy.

That's it.

Begin to include separate line items for "service charges" and such and now I'm feeling nickle-and-dimed, and I'm also feeling like the option to not tip was taken from me.   Just charge $x for an item, with no special extra charges, and I'm fine (no matter what the price is for that item).

This is perception, not math.

I get that when I pay for an item, part of what I'm paying goes to purchase the ingredients, part goes to pay the rent, part goes to make the next payment on the restaurant owner's new car.   That's fine and true of any retail store.  I also get that some restaurants cost more than others, sometimes MUUUCCCHHH more.   The value is in the experience, to include the food, the ambience, the service and such.

So why am I asked to segregate a line item specifically for the service in a place that is touting to be an alternative to tipping?   Is the restaurant trying to meet a particular price point for the menu items?   Are they trying to avoid revenue taxes by treating that money differently?

Flip it over - let's say you go to a hardware store and get some advice, then you get a 18% service charge added at checkout...what?

How about they just raise their prices accordingly and leave it at that?

Decent restaurants aren't super price sensitive.  They aren't.  I'm not saying they can't charge just anything...but as the Pittsburg example shows us, I'm sure there could be 18% or more room for price increases if the perception is positive...and isn't the restaurant business, as a hospitality industry, heavily reliant upon good perception?

18% service charges aren't the antidote to tipping.

I don't disagree with you, but nobody has addressed what I've said about taxes being an add-on, about gas stations being leaders in "what you see is what you pay," etc. From the consumer's point of view, it shouldn't matter if it's a tip, a service charge, or a tax.

An irony here is that the average consumer has *no clue* what they pay per gallon in taxes, despite it being clearly written on the pump. Similarly, the average diner will have no idea what they're paying in "service charge" if that's folded into the prices.

The only thing that's becoming clear to me is that no one solution will please everybody. From an end-user point of view, this is really a very simple issue, without a lot of variables - it's just a matter of whether you prefer things (and which things) to be itemized, or lumped together. I think!

For me, personally? I don't mind having 1) item cost 2) service charge (clearly conveyed) 3) tax (clearly conveyed) as three separate things on the bill. It's also clear that you prefer not to have it that way - I could happily live with your method as well. (As an aside, one argument against having tax lumped in is that you don't know how much to tip. Oops! There's that "T"-word again. )

I guess what I would prefer the most is what you're proposing: "What you see is what you pay," just like at the gas pump, though I would appreciate being told what the tax rate is (it varies so much from jurisdiction-to-jurisdiction that it's difficult to keep it all straight). In other words ... *I agree with you*! There, how's that?

[jayandstacey]

I don't disagree with you, but nobody has addressed what I've said about taxes being an add-on, about gas stations being leaders in "what you see is what you pay," etc. From the consumer's point of view, it shouldn't matter if it's a tip, a service charge, or a tax.

It shouldn't, but it does.

People rarely act perfectly rationally in economic situations.    We'd like to think that consumers don't care except for the bottom line, but they do.   If I pay $20 for a meal, should it matter how that was derived?   Theoretically, it shouldn't.  Practically, it does.

So let's address this from the perception standpoint.

1.  Taxes - taxes are different from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, are a legal mandate and we all generally dislike them.  They also tend to be minor (less than 10%) and tend to be added as a separate lines in many, many places.  I'm conditioned to 'roll over' on taxes.   In fact, when I see "prices include all taxes" I tend to think it is because the place has manual registers or does rapid, cash based transactions like at an ice cream stand or a gas station.

2.  Gas stations - I think you mean that gas stations don't add an additional tax line, or any other line.  I agree with that approach where feasible.  I also sense that gas taxes are so high that having a separate tax added at the end might be really bad for business.  And it is a fairly unique business - fairly heavily regulated and VERY commoditized.  Their price sensitivity is down to the penny - the opposite of restaurants.

To me, the answer is simple:  If we want to do away with tipping, then the whole concept needs to go away...both in front of the customer (ie, no service charge) and with the employees (salaries and maybe profit sharing, not splitting service fees.)

The service fee smacks of one thing to me:  Ownership that is protecting itself first.  My guess is that $1 collected as a service fee and distributed amongst the servers is treated differently from a tax perspective than $1 collected as a sale and filtered to employees through a salary.   If so, owners would argue that $1 that isn't taxed (or taxed less) means more they can flow to the employees.  BUT - I'd say it means they get to avoid the tax in the first place and it leaves me (the patron) with a sour taste in my mouth, as if I'd been asked to pay some part of the bill in cash / under the table.   It also means that the servers still aren't "solved" here:

- Their income is still variable to that week's collection of fees and is never predictable,

- worse, it is now capped at 18% and distributed evenly between the weakest and strongest performers.

So I go back to the original question:

If a place is serious about supporting the waitstaff - why can't they do so with a real no-tipping policy and real salaries for the employees?   Sure, there's risk in that - but there's risk in every such business and the owner's risk is offset by their unlimited potential to pocket all the profit, franchise, etc.   Why is this the one line of business that seems to want to pawn so much of the risk down to the wait staff?

[DonRocks]

[jayandstacey]

To be clear and fair - I do think the service charge is an improvement over traditional tipping.  I just suspect that it is 20% of the way there - and has the downsides I've indicated above.

And I feel restaurants have more pricing flexibility than they think - I'm not mentally haggling over a $14 vs $17 entree, especially if I know there's no tip or fee coming at the end.

[jayandstacey]

white flag?  So soon?

You gave up on the chance to say:

I just suspect that it is 20% of the way there

Don't you mean 18%?

[astrid]

I agree with jayandstacey, a mandatory 18% service charge is just another way of imposing the cost of labor onto customers, while fooling the naive ones into believing that X dish or Y drink is going to be cheaper than it will be on the bill.

If sales tax was an issue (I don't think it's one either, other business transactions are taxed on the full amount "“ though sales tax for goods versus no sales tax for services does get fuzzy), there's an easy solution.  On the menu, list the pre-tax and pre-tip price (ugly number), and the all-inclusive price next to it (whole number).  On the top, say that the all-inclusive price is what you will pay, period.  That all inclusive price is what you would be quoted in many civilized countries (where they'll also tell you the price includes VAT).

Having the menu tell customers that they don't have to tip but not mention the mandatory 18% service charge, smacks of bait and switch, and certainly makes me less likely to patronize this place.  It's a somewhat less offensive version of Dan O'Brien saying on his website that he'll cook Seasonal Pantry suppers, then being shocked! shocked! that people are upset when he's not there to cook.  It's the sort of blaming the customer (for having reasonable expectations) behavior that can turn me off of establishments.

[Tweaked]

After reading all these posts, I'm going to have to agree that the "18% service charge will be added to each check" is akin to forced tipping...much like large parties at other restaurants are usually forced to pay a fixed gratuity.  

If they want to get rid of tipping then bump up the prices.

Given the price of dining in DC and given the prices listed above in Don's photos would anyone care if the grilled squash at $5 was priced at $5.90...heck round it up to $6.  Beets for $6 or $7.08.  On today's menu, the most expensive item by far is the sockeye salmon at $17, would anyone not order it if it was priced at $20.06, which for DC is a fairly reasonable price for sockeye salmon.

It would appear that for many of the menu items listed above in Don's photos it means bumping up the prices about $1.

[DaRiv18]

I don't get you guys. Do you make this stink when a plumber has a "Labor" line-item on the invoice? If they didn't have a service charge line item on the receipt, it would probably lead to a lot of confusion and endless explaining to diners that they don't need to leave an "extra tip". Or people actually leaving an "extra tip" without knowing that it wasn't necessary. Why are you jumping to the least favorable conclusion?

I did see the language that Rieux saw one night, and agree it is unfortunate. But to make the leap that the owners must be hiding something is just unfounded.

[Josh]

A lot of digital ink was spilled on this board about the potential tax implications of the service charge...all without actually knowing what they are.  It seems like something that one might choose to seek out the answer to before getting upset and implying shadiness on the part of a restaurant's owners in a public forum.

[Tweaked]

I don't get you guys.  Do you make this stink when a plumber has a "Labor" line-item on the invoice?  If they didn't have a service charge line item on the receipt, it would probably lead to a lot of confusion and endless explaining to diners that they don't need to leave an extra tip.  Or people actually leaving an "extra tip" without knowing that it wasn't necessary.  Why are you jumping to the least favorable conclusion?

I did see the language that Rieux saw one night, and agree it is unfortunate.  But to make the leap that the owners must be hiding something is just unfounded.

Depends how expensive the "labor" line-item is!

In reality it would be pretty easy.  On the bill, instead of a tip line, just have a short statement about the no tipping policy.  It could be as short as "No tipping please"

[DaRiv18]

In reality it would be pretty easy.  On the bill, instead of a tip line, just have a short statement about the no tipping policy.  It could be as short as "No tipping please"

That's a reasonable alternative, but that still invites confusion as to why there is no tipping, and endless conversation from well-meaning concerned diners of the "are you sure?" variety.  And I am not a fan of short statements or manifestos when I go out to eat, a bit pretentious.  A service charge, especially with the 18% specificity, is the most transparent and concise way to communicate that no tips are necessary.

[jayandstacey]

That's a reasonable alternative, but that still invites confusion as to why there is no tipping, and endless conversation from well-meaning concerned diners of the "are you sure?" variety.  And I am not a fan of short statements or manifestos when I go out to eat, a bit pretentious.  A service charge, especially with the 18% specificity, is the most transparent and concise way to communicate that no tips are necessary.  

Instead, it invites cynicism for some.  Which is my point - since changing the model will cause confusion no matter which path is taken - why not take the path that leads to happy surprises (no, you really don't have to tip..), instead of unhappy ones (well, when we said no tipping, we meant instead it comes as a service charge)?

The cruise industry has a similar 'auto-tip' process.  But even there, they have an opt-out path - you can ask to have the tip removed or modified.  Is there an opt-out here?  Should there be?

[Tweaked]

That's a reasonable alternative, but that still invites confusion as to why there is no tipping, and endless conversation from well-meaning concerned diners of the "are you sure?" variety.  And I am not a fan of short statements or manifestos when I go out to eat, a bit pretentious.  A service charge, especially with the 18% specificity, is the most transparent and concise way to communicate that no tips are necessary.  

In today's dining world of farm-to-table locavore-ism, artisanal ice, house bottled water, and curated cocktail lists, no tipping please would be the least pretentious item on the bill!

[DaRiv18]

BTW, in the case of plumbers, those are labor rates based on hours spent on the job - not a markup over the cost of the materials (as with the service charge).   In the case of restaurants, that would in some ways make more sense - a "wait rate" that is $x per hour, charged by how long you sit at your table and how many people you have.   Isn't that in some ways more in line with their actual delivered service, and the opportunity cost of the waitstaff?   Why wasn't that model chosen? 

I actually thought of this and agree with you in theory.  But a plumber services one customer at a time, whereas a server takes on say 5 tables simultaneously.  Tables are going to get grumpy if a server spends more time at one table than another, it won't be a very relaxed atmosphere which hurts the diner.  Also, are we going to keep stopwatches going?  Are we going to agree on the stop/end time?  Is it fair that I pay more for a medium steak rather than a rare steak?  I agree that it is more fair under your model, but I think that would really ruin an experience to be so cognizant of the time spent on food delivery and how much time we are taking up at a table.

[Mark Slater]

In Europe, menu prices include tax and tip. Prix complèt, prix inclusive or mehrwertsteuer. It makes figuring the bill much simpler- what you see is what you pay.

[DaveO]

From the restaurant perspective, the implementation perspective, the employee perspective, and then on how to articulate this program to the public the very interesting and revealing story about Bar Marco in Pittsburgh in the Strip District is very fascinating.  Weekly profits tripled.   Revenues increased by a lot.  Employees are motivated.  And employees are deeply involved in all the elements of the change from tipping to no tipping with prices augmented by a service charge.

For things like this to work, its all about the implementation.

I actually have no problems with tipping.  I'd have no problems with going to a non tipping place.  I also have no problems with "up selling".  If you visit amazon and search on certain books, Amazon is going to suggest other books; if you buy shoes at a store they might also try and sell you socks, pants or a dress; when you buy an electronic gadget they are going to try and sell you insurance; and so on and so on.   Were I a FOH staff at Bar Marco I'd encourage you to try and additional dish or drink, with or without tip.  Were I working at Bar Marco, and you expressed that you had a limited budget for that evening I'd do everything possible to help you choose the best dishes for that budget.  If you really enjoyed your meal you'd probably come back again and bring friends.

[DonRocks]

Is this thread still about Sally's Middle Name? This is getting more annoying than the practice being discussed.

I was just signing on to ask peoples' opinions about what I should do with the service charge-related posts. I think that once the discussion dies down, I should move them to another thread, because before you know it, a second restaurant is going to come along and do the same thing, and all of a sudden this is a bigger issue than Sally's Middle Name. But I was going to let it die down first [the irony for me, as moderator, is that people who have chastised me in the past for splitting off posts - hence "putting a damper on discussions," when all I'm trying to do is organize things - are generally members who haven't been very active in many years. Anyway, as a compromise, I'm trying to wait until things die down before splitting things off into their proper home. And in this case, I think it's a good call - although this discussion is reaching its natural end, it was a lively and useful conversation for awhile.]

[JSnake]

Well I thought it was fascinating.

[jayandstacey]

I actually thought of this and agree with you in theory.  But a plumber services one customer at a time, whereas a server takes on say 5 tables simultaneously.  Tables are going to get grumpy if a server spends more time at one table than another, it won't be a very relaxed atmosphere which hurts the diner.  Also, are we going to keep stopwatches going?  Are we going to agree on the stop/end time?  Is it fair that I pay more for a medium steak rather than a rare steak?  I agree that it is more fair under your model, but I think that would really ruin an experience to be so cognizant of the time spent on food delivery and how much time we are taking up at a table.

Yeah, that's kind of my point - although we end up in the same place (a total that includes money that will go toward the service) - we would not accept such a system in a restaurant as it gives us the impression that at least something's "off" and at worst we're being taken. It's weird and makes me ask questions, which is not always desirable when talking $$.

But if we say the presentation doesn't matter; only the total: then this model of service paid by the diner/hour would be just as viable as any other, right? My suggestion is that the presentation does matter, even if we end at the same total.

Interestingly, I might see where Sally's has a unique problem where the prices seem SO low that maybe people would be less likely to tip - like they were in a fast food environment. Again, I'm all for ensuring a wait staff is paid an honorable wage and not penalized when a cheapskate visits. Their system is fair in that regard and isn't horribly bad. I just think the Pittsburg example shows how far that can go if tips are eliminated entirely, to (apparently) everyone's benefit.

In the US, I experienced a true "no tip" situation at the full service meal counter at Wegmans. We can't compare a Wegmans to a non-chain restaurant.... I remember getting my tip back with a feeling like "oh yeah, Wegmans employees are notoriously happy- and now I am too"

That, and McDonalds

I've never met Don yet I seem to make him mad occasionally. [Not true at all. DR]

[B.A.R.]

Danny Meyer: No More Tipping

[PollyG]

As more restaurants go to a no-tipping policy, it would be nice to see states pass legislation requiring menus to state whether servers are receiving tipped worker wages or not.  There are so many order-at-the-counter places that have tip jars out, adding to the confusion.   Requiring a restaurant to list how much it pays its servers/hour might also have the benefit of educating foreign visitors. 

[Eric Ziebold]

Yes, legislation would make it easier but I don't actually think it would be that difficult for restaurants to handle it internally if they want to.  Service included written on the menu as well as removing the gratuity line from the Credit Card receipt would make it pretty clear for most people.  (I say most because there might be some people that still pay their tab with that archaic thing called "cash")

I was in Europe for a little while in August, some places have moved away from service included, but they all have the tip line which I found really annoying and frustrating, I see this as a great solution for tourists and locals as like.  They simply sign the amount that is stated and if they ask about tipping can then be told that the restaurant is service included and they don't accept tips.

On a side note....I'll never forget our experience in Beijing where we got chased down by a server.  We knew it's not a tipping culture but we were in a very off the beaten path restaurant that did everything they could to accommodate the language barrier.  Feeling like we were a pain in the a@# we left a tip on the table.  Our server chased us down to give it back to us, and even though we tried again she made it obvious that she was refusing to take it.

[Marty L.]

This is how you do it:

"Danny Meyer Restaurants To Eliminate Tipping" by Pete Wells on nytimes.com

Just as in Europe:  One price, wages included.

But if Danny Meyer plans to keep servers' income steady and yet still significantly raise kitchen workers' pay, presumably the listed prices will have to be raised by more than 20-25%, no?

Will be interesting to watch.

Don, please feel free to move this to another thread, if appropriate.

[DonRocks]

Don, please feel free to move this to another thread, if appropriate.

I will, but I want Sally's never to make another mistake with that sign again, so I'll leave it here until they read it.

They are *so close* to doing this right, and I'm pulling for them to succeed, but the wording on that chalkboard just cannot mislead the customers the way Rieux and I both saw it.

Sally's! Are you listening? You can do this! It's the path of the future and you're helping to pave it! And your food is darned good, too.

[RJ Cooper]

"Bar Agricole and Trou Normand Bring Back Tipping" by Stephanie Tuder on sf.eater.com

[DonRocks]

"Bar Agricole and Trou Normand Bring Back Tipping" by Stephanie Tuder on sf.eater.com

The Conversion is going to be like switching to electric cars - it's not something the industry can just "do."

"In California, Electric Cars Outpace Plugs, and Sparks Fly" by Matt Richtel on nytimes.com

I, for one, am willing to put up with worse service for a few years at tip-free restaurants (*). Losing good servers (or those who think they're good because they make more money) is unavoidable collateral damage, and reinforces what I've been saying for years: Servers are overpaid relative to the rest of the staff. There are a lot of seriously mediocre servers out there making shockingly good incomes, while line cooks in back toil for something barely above minimum wage and have no health or disability insurance. I have been steadfast about this issue for years, and am not going to waver.

Isn't it significant that the article says they're losing servers, and not line cooks, or dishwashers, or runners?

(*) Listen up, diners: You're going to have to put up with it too; otherwise, the whole thing will fail.

[Simul Parikh]

Say two restaurants are pretty close to equal, and we haven't had a standardize tipping policy. We can choose Rasika and Rasika West, for example. If the Palak Chaat is $10 at the place that has tipping and $12 at the place that doesn't, I'm certain that the lower cost place does better business, if the quality and food are the same. Psychology dictates that we are okay with the lower up front price, and that the tip is another segment of the meal. The restaurant that has tips will always seems less expensive, even though it isn't (unless you don't tip). If you do the inclusive service fee at the beginning, you marginalize yourself as more expensive, without necessarily adding value. If you do what Sally's did, you marginalize yourself as mandating tipping.

So... Until everyone flips, doing the service charge at the end is going to anger people that felt they didn't get good service. Doing the increased prices will marginalize the restaurant as being more expensive (a $40 steak will be $47).

My only thought would be to do what Sally's did, have the waiter briefly explain why they do it, and at the end, still offer that the patrons can reduce the service charge if they felt they were not served well. Some people will take advantage of that, most won't.

The only other better option is legislation to remove wait staff from below minimum wage group ($2.13/hr) and everyone either adds 10% with room to go up for better service, or raise the prices to get the salaries where they need to be.

Another very American problem...

[DonRocks]

Say two restaurants are pretty close to equal, and we haven't had a standardize tipping policy. We can choose Rasika and Rasika West, for example. If the Palak Chaat is $10 at the place that has tipping and $12 at the place that doesn't, I'm certain that the lower cost place does better business, if the quality and food are the same. Psychology dictates that we are okay with the lower up front price, and that the tip is another segment of the meal. The restaurant that has tips will always seems less expensive, even though it isn't (unless you don't tip). If you do the inclusive service fee at the beginning, you marginalize yourself as more expensive, without necessarily adding value. If you do what Sally's did, you marginalize yourself as mandating tipping.

So... Until everyone flips, doing the service charge at the end is going to anger people that felt they didn't get good service. Doing the increased prices will marginalize the restaurant as being more expensive (a $40 steak will be $47).

My only thought would be to do what Sally's did, have the waiter briefly explain why they do it, and at the end, still offer that the patrons can reduce the service charge if they felt they were not served well. Some people will take advantage of that, most won't.

The only other better option is legislation to remove wait staff from below minimum wage group ($2.13/hr) and everyone either adds 10% with room to go up for better service, or raise the prices to get the salaries where they need to be.

Another very American problem...

Two-word reply: mink coats.

One-word reply: cigarettes.

Some ads with pictures of 60-year-old Latino dishwashers bent over because they can't stand up straight should start the process quite nicely.

[Ericandblueboy]

Presumably sales tax will apply to the whole bill, whereas we don't pay tax on tip now. So your cost of dining out will go up even more.

[DonRocks]

Presumably sales tax will apply to the whole bill, whereas we don't pay tax on tip now. So your cost of dining out will go up even more.

Fine with me, although service charges are only taxable if they're mandatory.

I look at it as overpaying $10,000 for a Prius.

"Toyota To Make Mostly Electric, Alt-Fuel Cars by 2050" by James Detar on news.investors.com

And let's not candy-coat this transition: It's going to cost us all more in the short-term.

Wouldn't I make a great (but unelectable) politician?

[Marty L.]

Uh, oh:  Sally's thinks that its policy, in contrast to Meyer's, will be more amenable to customers:  It's "kind of our way of saying, "˜We're being open and honest with you. . . .  It's not going into our pocket.'"  Count me skeptical.  If you're so intent on assuring customers that you are paying your employees a living wage, why not simply say:  "The price for this modest plate of hash is $15.  That might seem high, but as with all of our prices, X% of the proceeds will be applied to labor costs for all our employees.  So please do not include any gratuity."

"Restaurant Industry Leader Danny Meyer Ends Tipping. Who Will Follow?" by Maura Judkis on washingtonpost.com

This is how you do it:

"Danny Meyer Restaurants To Eliminate Tipping" by Pete Wells on nytimes.com

Just as in Europe:  One price, wages included.  

But if Danny Meyer plans to keep servers' income steady and yet still significantly raise kitchen workers' pay, presumably the listed prices will have to be raised by more than 20-25%, no?

Will be interesting to watch.

Don, please feel free to move this to another thread, if appropriate.

[DonRocks]

Uh, oh:  Sally's thinks that its policy, in contrast to Meyer's, will be more amenable to customers:  It's "kind of our way of saying, "˜We're being open and honest with you. . . .  It's not going into our pocket.'"  Count me skeptical.  If you're so intent on assuring customers that you are paying your employees a living wage, why not simply say:  "The price for this modest plate of hash is $15.  That might seem high, but as with all of our prices, X% of the proceeds will be applied to labor costs for all our employees.  So please do not include any gratuity."

"Restaurant Industry Leader Danny Meyer Ends Tipping. Who Will Follow?" by Maura Judkis on washingtonpost.com

I find it somewhat ironic that we've now quoted Maura Judkis probably 10 times, she's never once quoted us that I know of (yet we've been *the* website on the front line of this issue, bar none - we're not just "reporting" on it; we've been leading the change for years).

Sam, I know you're reading this, and I know you know that I'm pulling for you, so please listen to me: I'm telling you in no uncertain terms that Danny Meyer's way is the best way - he has thought this through, and has the nationwide clout to help pull it off. Your method is better than nothing, and it's a start, but it's really not *that* different from a customer's viewpoint, and there needs to be unified work towards an industry standard which is the simplest way possible - building everything into the price of each individual item, and clearly stating that there is no tipping accepted, is the best and simplest way possible.

I again refer everyone in Washington, DC to The Swiss Bakery who has been on the cutting edge of this issue for years.

The ultimate ideal goes one step further than Danny Meyer: include sales tax in the prices as well. Then, state clearly on the menu the percentage of the price that is represented by tax (just like they do at gas stations) - the consumer wants to know how much they're going to pay, and ultimately doesn't care where the money goes at that particular moment. That's probably asking too much, and isn't necessary, but why not get everything on the table at the same time? If you order a $170 Danny Meyer tasting menu, order a $50 bottle of wine, and bring $220 in cash, guess what?

[DaveO]

108 posts above and the only comment I can see from an existing restaurant operator on the pros and cons was from RJ reporting the news that 2 San Francisco restaurants reversed prior policy and returned to tipping. And that was news, not his own perspective.  (that is fine) The San Fran restaurants gave their reasons as they couldn't retain good FOH staff.  The decisions changed after 10 months of experiments.

The single experiment I've seen that seemed extremely promising was at Bar Marco in Pittsburgh.   I have not seen any follow up stories.   Was this a "real" story or not or just some planted publicity?    I question it now in that there haven't been follow ups.  OTOH it impressed me when it first came out.

Frankly I think this is an experiment that is up to the operators.  All of the comments above and specifically the one's relating to "how customers might react" are exactly the concerns that restaurateurs have to consider.   In general will it draw more customers or less?  Will it sit well with staff?  All staff; or better with some and worse with others.     Frankly its all theory until one applies it.  On top of the comments above, other issues, not yet referenced could come into play.

A couple of other points:

1.  Applying an 18% (or so)  service charge/ or just adding it into the prices and stating no tipping, actually takes from one group, the FOH staff, and gives to the BOH staff.  It helps some and hurts others  In order to not penalize the FOH staff a restaurant might need to raise prices by something closer to 30%.   I think the Meyer group referenced price increases by about 30%.

2.  The Bar Marco article referenced significant changes in staff behavior and savings on certain operating costs.   That implies tremendous effort at training, and staff buying in with significant change in behavior.  That all requires an awful lot of training, management and leadership.   I frankly think that many operators simply don't apply an enormous amount of training.  I think you can see it again and again in comments about poor service.  Some of that is a result of less than great staff and some is from a lack of training.

3.  I suspect most operators will tell you that staff turns over like crazy.  So training is difficult, time consuming, endlessly repetitive, and its often wasted as staff could turn over rapidly in a relatively short time period.   The operators would need to speak to this.  Its astonishingly inconsistent with certain places retaining staff for very long time periods and others seeing an awful lot of turnover.

4.  Its ultimately a big risk and change.  I really believe its up to the operators.  Its their money on the line.

5.  I mostly don't care about the issue.  I tend to tip close to or around industry standards.  I know its high.  I know it rewards the FOH and not the BOH and I know that isn't optimal or "fair".  It is what it is, and Simul Parikh calls it an American problem, which I guess it is.  On some occasions where I've been a regular I've tipped certain BOH personnel that I've gotten to know, but that is rare for me, and it virtually never occurs.  I suppose that makes it irrelevant.

6.  Anyway good luck to the operators who give it a shot, and for those that do, at least the BOH personnel will see some rewards for at least a period of time and possibly everyone, but for that to happen I suppose the sun, moon, other planets, and stars will have to align to create a story that reads like the Bar Marco report.

[Bart]

I was in Europe for a little while in August, some places have moved away from service included, but they all have the tip line which I found really annoying and frustrating, I see this as a great solution for tourists and locals as like.  They simply sign the amount that is stated and if they ask about tipping can then be told that the restaurant is service included and they don't accept tips.

There have been a lot of discussions on tipping on a (French) Caribbean site that I frequent and it seems that the "tips" line has started showing up on certain restaurant receipts in the last few years. Some of the frequent travelers (2 or more times a year) get very offended by this and either refuse to go to those places or refuse to tip. They see it as a blatant attempt to shake down American customers who don't know that a 20%+ tip isn't expected.

These same folks will leave 5 or so Euros in cash for the server as a thank you, but never on the credit card slip.

I don't know why or if any of this is relevant!

[DonRocks]

Frankly its all theory until one applies it.  

It's applied in France, and their servers, in general, are one *hell* of a lot better than ours. When I go to a restaurant in France - in the general case - I have no problem asking the server for recommendations; in the United States, I have *much* more confidence in my own ability to look around, to read the menu, and to come up with a better choice than the server recommends (in my case, which I admit is a special case, that applies to sommeliers as well).

I took a server's advice just last night, and regretted it to no end.

I can't tell you how many waitstaff (both servers and bartenders) I've come across in America who *don't even know the name of the chef*.

[Simul Parikh]

What I meant by American problem is that we create an institution that is a lot of times not ideal, but a work around to solve a certain issue and then when it becomes unworkable, change is nearly impossible, due to the resistance of the players involved and because of severe path dependence. When international solutions are recognized and recommended, there is a consistent - "well that works great there, but it would never work here because of X, Y, and Z"

See: health care, tort, broadband/Internet, public education...

If everyone isn't subject to the same minimum wage policies, what is the real incentive for restaurants to move to this model? It's noble for Meyer or Bar Marco, but in many cases I bet people will try it and then just go back to the old way.

I just don't get how a bartender at a nice restaurant can clear $250 on a good shift, while the souz chef makes $100-150, and nobody in the back of the house revolts.

[Ferhat Yalcin]

 I can't tell you how many waitstaff (both servers and bartenders) I've come across in America who *don't even know the name of the chef*.

I witnessed this on multiple occasions. I think of it both sad and funny.

[Mark Slater]

I just don't get how a bartender at a nice restaurant can clear $250 on a good shift, while the souz chef makes $100-150, and nobody in the back of the house revolts.

In most restaurants there exists animosity between the BOH and the FOH. Mainly for the reason you mentioned. Bartenders in nice and busy restaurants can clear a hell of a lot mor than $250, BTW.

[DaveO]

What I meant by American problem is that we create an institution that is a lot of times not ideal, but a work around to solve a certain issue and then when it becomes unworkable, change is nearly impossible, due to the resistance of the players involved and because of severe path dependence. When international solutions are recognized and recommended, there is a consistent - "well that works great there, but it would never work here because of X, Y, and Z"

See: health care, tort, broadband/Internet, public education...

I assumed you meant "something" like the above, and you have articulated it in far greater depth.  Thanks.

If everyone isn't subject to the same minimum wage policies, what is the real incentive for restaurants to move to this model? It's noble for Meyer or Bar Marco, but in many cases I bet people will try it and then just go back to the old way.

I just don't get how a bartender at a nice restaurant can clear $250 on a good shift, while the souz chef makes $100-150, and nobody in the back of the house revolts.

That is a strong point in my mind.  On top of that BOH wages can be very low.  With high rents, high every other costs it is difficult to "make a buck".  Competition in this and other markets is always fierce and frankly in any region there are relatively few places similar to Rose's Luxury meaning that many restaurants struggle for traffic and customers.  So I suppose for operators to change, it will take a very large belief system, a leap of faith, and  extensive finger crossing to call on "the good luck gods".

Why don't the people in the BOH revolt when their wages are low and FOH staff "can" make big money on great nights?   Good question.   BTW  FOH income is very inconsistent in most places dependent on how busy the place is, the shifts, how well staffed or "over staffed" a place is, management adjusting schedules, and a host of other reasons, etc.

BTW:  from the perspective of the bar school we have seen 10's of thousands of people enter the F &B industry.  All types, from people with a long history in the industry to newcomers, young and old, and of all ethnicities and countries.   In our case, most of the people enter the industry as its an easier way to make income or additional income.   The percentage of people we see who view it as a career and have a burning desire to excel are very few and far between.  Admittedly we may attract fewer of those people, but I know that percentage is a tiny minority.  In a sense, too bad, as the F & B industry is one where one can move from dishwasher or lower position to very successful owner, all without "professional training or expensive schooling", if one has the drive and talents.  In many ways an astonishing opportunity, sort of the personification of the "American dream".*

*there are examples I know in this region.

[Tujague]

So, I count exactly two posts since the beginning of August that refer at all to the food at SMN. Everything else is about the tipping policy--and much of that not even specifically about the policy at SMN. I'm not saying it's an unimportant or even uninteresting subject, but why can't this be in the other tipping discussion forum, or create a separate "Sally's Middle Name Tipping Policy" discussion? Hell, create a "Rose's Luxury No-Reservations Policy" forum while we're at it. It feels like the larger dining experience is getting lost in these discussions of specific practices, and for those who want to know more about the former, it's getting tiresome. Not trying to shut down conversation, but at some point letting this go on so long in this space makes it seem like the restaurant is nothing but a particular policy, and I find that disheartening. I haven't eaten here for awhile, but if I had, I'd feel discouraged from reporting on my actual meal (or even linking to Sietsema's two-star review in this week's WaPo Magazine), because it'd get lost in the rest of the din--so why bother?

[Simul Parikh]

That's true. Should be separated. Not fair to the restaurant.

[Tujague]

I'm wondering: Is it possible to create a new string of forums around business and practice? It bugs me how some restaurant discussions like Sally's Middle Name, Rose's Luxury, and some others get hijacked about practice issues, but it seems like there are other issues that might fit under a new grouping--general service issues, tipping, reservations, Open Table, parking, etc. For now, these seem to get subsumed under "News and Media," or connected to a specific restaurant where something is regarded as an issue (Rose's no reservations, Sally's tipping policy). It might not be as large a grouping as the others, but it would give the restaurant forums more breathing room to talk about people's actual experiences.

(And no, Don, I'm NOT trying to create more work for you. It just seems like there must be a better way to deal with this stuff. And PLEASE, move this into a separate discussion thread whereever you regard appropriate. Thanks.)

[DonRocks]

So, I count exactly two posts since the beginning of August that refer at all to the food at SMN. Everything else is about the tipping policy--and much of that not even specifically about the policy at SMN. I'm not saying it's an unimportant or even uninteresting subject, but why can't this be in the other tipping discussion forum, or create a separate "Sally's Middle Name Tipping Policy" discussion? Hell, create a "Rose's Luxury No-Reservations Policy" forum while we're at it. It feels like the larger dining experience is getting lost in these discussions of specific practices, and for those who want to know more about the former, it's getting tiresome. Not trying to shut down conversation, but at some point letting this go on so long in this space makes it seem like the restaurant is nothing but a particular policy, and I find that disheartening. I haven't eaten here for awhile, but if I had, I'd feel discouraged from reporting on my actual meal (or even linking to Sietsema's two-star review in this week's WaPo Magazine), because it'd get lost in the rest of the din--so why bother?

[Not to be a tool, but you know perfectly well that questioning website policy in the forums is verboten. As I said above, this will be moved, and in the meantime, we all await your review of SMN. ]

(And also in the meantime, SMN is getting a ton of free publicity for being on the front lines. Or did I not mention that I'd be throwing my full support behind restaurants that eliminate tipping? (Which is why they need to get it right.))

[Tujague]

[Not to be a tool, but you know perfectly well that questioning website policy in the forums is verboten. As I said above, this will be moved, and in the meantime, we all await your review of SMN. ]

(And also in the meantime, SMN is getting a ton of free publicity for being on the front lines. Or did I not mention that I'd be throwing my full support behind restaurants that eliminate tipping? (Which is why they need to get it right.))

Actually, Don, I didn't know that. What I don't know is where exactly to put certain posts, and it's frustrating to get second-guessed on things without warning, when I"m trying to do my best to respect you and the site. I'm not questioning your policy; I'm trying to raise in a constructive way ideas about how there might be ways to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, which is not the same thing as "questioning" policy. And this "free publicity" you are touting doesn't exactly encourage me to visit the place, since the talk about the tipping policy is mostly negative, and totally obscures whether SMN is actually worth visiting, policy be damned.

And I'll post a review if my income ever recovers enough that I can eat out more, which is unlikely in my current state of burnout.

[DonRocks]

Actually, Don, I didn't know that. What I don't know is where exactly to put certain posts, and it's frustrating to get second-guessed on things without warning, when I"m trying to do my best to respect you and the site. I'm not questioning your policy; I'm trying to raise in a constructive way ideas about how there might be ways to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, which is not the same thing as "questioning" policy. And this "free publicity" you are touting doesn't exactly encourage me to visit the place, since the talk about the tipping policy is mostly negative, and totally obscures whether SMN is actually worth visiting, policy be damned.

And I'll post a review if my income ever recovers enough that I can eat out more, which is unlikely in my current state of burnout.

No worries - it's my responsibility to organize the posts. You're doing just fine, and the fact that I didn't know that means I need to write a Bill Of Rights (but I won't be able to come up with 10 things, since we only have about 5 rules, none of which are set in stone, but I think I should spell them out in a bullet list so everyone knows the very basic guidelines here, all but one being rooted in common courtesy (you managed to find the one that isn't; this one is to keep my life from being reduced to hellishness)).

SMN is absolutely worth visiting.