The Palena Chicken Project

[Al Dente]

I've been to Palena about 25 or 30 times now, and I've only ever had the occasional bite of someone else's order of THE Roast Chicken. Well, last night, after exhibiting tremendous restraint by not having one of the tempting multi-course combinations from the regular menu, I ordered the chicken for myself. In the words of Christopher Walken as The Continental, "wow... wowie wow wow WOW".

So, how can this dish be made at home? I have it on good authority that the bird is brined with cardamom, star anise, and vanilla. Are there any other flavors in there? What would the recipe look like for the brine? I imagine it's air dried before browning. How does he get the skin so uniformly brown and crisp? Is it seared first in a pan then finished in the oven? I suspect a blow torch might be involved for touching up the hard to get to spots.

I want to get to the bottom of this so I plan on trying a few experiments over the coming months. Is anyone else interested in trying to decode this recipe? We'll surely win the Nobel Prize for Poultry Preparation should we succeed.

[shogun]

We'll surely win the Nobel Prize for Poultry Preparation should we succeed.

But you'll be dead within the week. Les jeux sont faits.

[mdt]

I've been to Palena about 25 or 30 times now, and I've only ever had the occasional bite of someone else's order of THE Roast Chicken. Well, last night, after exhibiting tremendous restraint by not having one of the tempting multi-course combinations from the regular menu, I ordered the chicken for myself. In the words of Christopher Walken as The Continental, "wow... wowie wow wow WOW".

So, how can this dish be made at home? I have it on good authority that the bird is brined with cardamom, star anise, and vanilla. Are there any other flavors in there? What would the recipe look like for the brine? I imagine it's air dried before browning. How does he get the skin so uniformly brown and crisp? Is it seared first in a pan then finished in the oven? I suspect a blow torch might be involved for touching up the hard to get to spots.

I want to get to the bottom of this so I plan on trying a few experiments over the coming months. Is anyone else interested in trying to decode this recipe? We'll surely win the Nobel Prize for Poultry Preparation should we succeed.

I have plenty of time on my hands now and would be more than happy to participate in noble quest such as this!

[Jacques Gastreaux]

I have plenty of time on my hands now and would be more than happy to participate in noble quest such as this! 

Has anyone thought of asking Ruta how he does it?

[bookluvingbabe]

Has anyone thought of asking Ruta how he does it?

But that takes all the fun out of it!!!

I recall hearing that there is tarragon involved too...

[scottreitz]

Has anyone thought of asking Ruta how he does it?

I tried for my piece on DCist. He's not talking..his waitresses arent talking...nobody's talking. If you'd like a good start I assert that I got close, but would be foolish to think I produced a duplicate. Either way its definilty the best chicken I've ever had at my home. If you get close yourself...I'd love to know how you did it.

http://www.dcist.com/archives/2005/05/25/e...nic_chicken.php

[AlliK]

I have it on good authority that the bird is brined with cardamom, star anise, and vanilla.

Do you think there might be cinnamon in there somewhere too? The flavor of the bird tends to remind me a bit of the moroccan spice blend ras-el-hanout.

[Al Dente]

I tried for my piece on DCist.  He's not talking..his waitresses arent talking...nobody's talking.  If you'd like a good start I assert that I got close, but would be foolish to think I produced a duplicate.  Either way its definilty the best chicken I've ever had at my home.  If you get close yourself...I'd love to know how you did it.

http://www.dcist.com/archives/2005/05/25/e...nic_chicken.php

Yeah, my understanding is that the recipe is top secret. I work with a couple of chefs who used to work with chef Ruta at the White House, so perhaps I'll pick their brains a bit.

Your recipe sounds like a good start on the solution to this puzzle.

[giant shrimp]

i have tried the chicken a few times, and maybe it isn't always spiced the same way?

[mhberk]

I grill the wait staff everytime I go and get a little more info each time. The last time I was there, I told our server that I was going to work in the kitchen on the weekends just to get the recipe. He said that it wouldn't do me any good because no one in the kitchen knows what goes in the brine. Apperantly, Frank makes the brine himself and he is the only one that knows what goes in it. The only thing our server DOES know is that it is brined for 24 hours. Once an order comes in, the chicken is first seared in a pan and then placed in a "hot" oven (he didn't know what the temp was, but I'm assuming that it >400 degrees).

After our last visit (2 weeks ago), I found Patrick O'Connell's brine recipe and tried that (this was posted on eG Forums):

"BRINED CHICKEN from Patrick O’Connell,

found in NYT 12-22-99

serves 4-5; Time: 1 hour 15 minutes, plus overnight brining

My notes: This recipe imparts a wonderful taste to the fowl; used on both chicken and Turkey. Time must be adjusted for the size of the bird. Used on parts do not follow timing here or it becomes too salty. For the turkey (fresh, organic, free range), I multiplied the recipe and used a picnic cooler which I left outdoors in the chill Fall air. Worked fine.

BRINE:

½ cup kosher salt

1 3/4 cups sugar

1 cup honey

3 sprigs each parsley, dill, thyme, tarragon, sage

1 sprig rosemary

1 Tbs mustard seeds

1 Tbs fennel seeds

1 cinnamon stick

2 large bay leaves

4 cloves

½ Tbs juniper berries

½ Tbs cardamom pods

1 Tbs black peppercorns

1 lemon, halved and squeezed lightly

3 star anise

½ Tbs whole allspice

CHICKEN:

3-4 lb chicken

1 cup sliced carrots

1 cup sliced celery

1 cup sliced onion

2 Tbs butter, melted

1. Large stockpot or roasting pan that holds chicken in one piece: bring 1 gallon to a boil; remove from heat, add all brine ingredients, stir. Cool to room temperature. (Of course you can substitute a ziplock for the pan once the brine cools.)

2. Add chicken to pan. Cover, refrigerate overnight.

From here you can substitute your own favorite way of roasting the bird, but I give you O'Connell's instructions for completeness:

3. Drain chicken well, discard brine. Cut off and discard wing tips. Preheat oven to 350f. Roasting pan: place carrot, celery, onion. Place chicken on top of veggies. Brush chicken with melted butter.

4. Roast chicken til thigh joint temperature reaches 150f, about 1 hour. Baste with pan juices at least every 15 minutes. Watch carefully to avoid burning. If parts become well browned, cover with foil. When chicken is done remove from oven. Allow it to rest at least 10 minutes before carving. (depends on size of bird, of course)"

This was VERY similar to what I've had at Palena (minus the crispy skin, but I'm working on that). My only variation would be to multiply the water by 0.75, multiply the salt by 1.5 and brine it for 24 hours instead of 12 or overnight. And of course I cut the chicken in half and brined the two halves instead of brining and cooking it whole.

Let me know what you guys think!

Edited December 16, 2005 by mhberk

[bilrus]

This was VERY similar to what I've had at Palena (minus the crispy skin, but I'm working on that). 

To get a crisp skin, try the Zuni Cafe trick of letting it airdry in the refirgerator of a day or so.

[mhberk]

To get a crisp skin, try the Zuni Cafe trick of letting it airdry in the refirgerator of a day or so.

I remember watching Iron Chef Sakai dry out the skin of a duck by sitting in front of a fan (or cold air blow dryer) for 20 minutes. I was thinking about trying that.

[zoramargolis]

I have had the chicken, when the herb flavor is primarily tarragon. Other times, not. So I suspect he changes the brine recipe periodically.

Here's my theory, though. Rather than simply immersing the bird in the brine--I THINK HE INJECTS IT. The flavor goes all the way to the bone in a way that I have only been able to achieve with injecting brine/marinade. Also, it's possible to inject a bird and airdry it over night, so you are getting both the deep flavor and the skin dry enough to get crisp in the oven.

[Al Dente]

Here's my theory, though. Rather than simply immersing the bird in the brine--I THINK HE INJECTS IT. The flavor goes all the way to the bone in a way that I have only been able to achieve with injecting brine/marinade. Also, it's possible to inject a bird and airdry it over night, so you are getting both the deep flavor and the skin dry enough to get crisp in the oven.

What about rather than injecting it, the chicken is cooked sous vide then roasted to crisp the skin? This is the suspicion of a chef friend of mine.

[zoramargolis]

What about rather than injecting it, the chicken is cooked sous vide then roasted to crisp the skin? This is the suspicion of a chef friend of mine.

It's a very interesting theory, but the more I think about it, the more doubts I have. As I understand it, sous vide is essentially a form of poaching or steaming the food gently in its own juices without any evaporation or diluting of the juices into a larger liquid medium. Roasting is entirely different, with hot air cooking, evaporating fluids and concentrating the flavors. Brining is a technique used to counter the drying effect of the roasting method. I don't think that chicken skin that has previously been cooked in a sous vide pouch would crisp up as uniformly as Palena roast chicken does. Unless it were just partially cooked sous vide and then roasted. Even so, the skin would be wet and steamed before it went into the roasting oven. But frankly, I question all the extra work that would entail. First brining, then vacuum-packing and cooking sous vide, then roasting. I think he injects it with brine, stores the chickens uncovered overnight in the refrigerator to dry the skin --maybe with a fan blowing on them (or dries the skin and THEN injects the brine into the meat), perhaps gives the skin an extra blast of drying air with a hair dryer and then roasts it in a fairly hot oven or convection oven. Think Peking duck technique. Crackling skin, melting meat. Has anyone been in the kitchen to see whether he has one of those Peking duck ovens where the bird is suspended vertically? Remember, it takes forty-five minutes to get the roast chicken when you order it. That's how long it takes to roast a (raw) chicken in a hot oven.

Edited January 2, 2006 by zoramargolis

[mdt]

It's a very interesting theory, but the more I think about it, the more doubts I have. As I understand it, sous vide is essentially a form of poaching or steaming the food gently in its own juices without any evaporation or diluting of the juices into a larger liquid medium. Roasting is entirely different, with hot air cooking, evaporating fluids and concentrating the flavors. Brining is a technique used to counter the drying effect of the roasting method. I don't think that chicken skin that has previously been cooked in a sous vide pouch would crisp up as uniformly as Palena roast chicken does. Unless it were just partially cooked sous vide and then roasted. Even so, the skin would be wet and steamed before it went into the roasting oven.

If I remember correctly the duck breast at Citronelle is cooked sous vide and had a wonderfully crisp skin. Not proof of Chef Ruta's process, but proof that one can produce a crisp skin with this technique.

[zoramargolis]

If I remember correctly the duck breast at Citronelle is cooked sous vide and had a wonderfully crisp skin.  Not proof of Chef Ruta's process, but proof that one can produce a crisp skin with this technique.

I believe that is done by putting the previously sous vide cooked duck breast skin side down in a very hot skillet until the skin is crisped. In her book. _The Cooking of Southwest France_ Paula Wolfert describes sous vide confit of duck legs, which can have the skin browned in a 400 degree oven. Hmmm.

[ol_ironstomach]

I believe that is done by putting the previously sous vide cooked duck breast skin side down in a very hot skillet until the skin is crisped. In her book. _The Cooking of Southwest France_ Paula Wolfert describes sous vide confit of duck legs, which can have the skin browned in a 400 degree oven. Hmmm.

From the peanut gallery, let me point out that Costco sells a remarkably convenient and inexpensive two-pack of sous vide "roast" duck halves (each with an atrocious packet of "orange sauce" that is easily discarded) that crisps up nicely in the oven. QED.

[zoramargolis]

From the peanut gallery, let me point out that Costco sells a remarkably convenient and inexpensive two-pack of sous vide "roast" duck halves (each with an atrocious packet of "orange sauce" that is easily discarded) that crisps up nicely in the oven.  QED.

I don't think these qualify as "sous vide"-- I've had this product, and I believe that it is roasted conventionally and then vacuum packed, not vacuum sealed when raw and then cooked at very low temp, which is what sous vide is.

[ol_ironstomach]

I don't think these qualify as "sous vide"-- I've had this product, and I believe that it is roasted conventionally and then vacuum packed, not vacuum sealed when raw and then cooked at very low temp, which is what sous vide is.

Hmmm, I think you may be right. My first impressions were based on the retained juicyness and relative lack of browning, but upon carefully examining a package in my fridge it seems to me that the exposed bones do look somewhat roasted. Apologies for contributing non-information.

Note to self: I must visit Palena to try this chicken...

[jm chen]

Got a nice crispy skin on a non-brined chicken this weekend, roasting at 450. The feel of the skin was pretty similar to the Palena chicken, first time I've done so at home. Patted the skin dry, rubbed it with oil, left it alone on high heat. Not as thin as Ruta's, but I'm not sure whether that's method or product.

[tanabutler]

This forum is awesome. You guys are so knowledgeable and helpful. I blame your leader.

[Barbara]

I blame your leader.

As well you should.

[mhberk]

I tried to make it again last weekend (Christmas weekend) with some half chickens I bought at Whole Foods. I made a few modifications to the brine recipe that I listed in my previous post and it came out VERY, VERY similar to Palena's as far as flavor and juiciness!

As far as the roasting method, I took the chickens out of the brine earlier in the day. I then let them sit in the refridgerator, uncovered, for 7 hours. When it came time to roast them, I started by setting my oven at 500 for 30 minutes. After the oven had been at 500 for 30 minutes, I placed the chicken on a bed of mirepoix, 1/4 cup chicken stock, and a 1/4 w. wine and placed it in the oven. After 20 minutes, I turned the oven down to 425 and continued cooking for another 45 minutes (these Whole Foods chickens were much bigger than the average half chicken). The skin was a little darker than "golden brown", but I think it was just the carmalization from the honey. I retained the juices and drippings as a dipping sauce for my guests and even served the mirepoix as a vegetable for those that wanted it (you'd be amazed at the flavor of the mirepoix from the drippings).

Since the chickens were so big, we had leftovers. In fact, my wife just finished her chicken last night (almost a week and a half after they were prepared) and she was still amazed. As I was placing it in the pan to cook it, I could still hear the crackling of the skin as I pressed on it (even after sitting in my fridge for over a week!).

Has anyone else tried the recipe that I listed?

[ulysses]

Try using cinnamon, nutmeg and anise in your brine(equal parts sugar and salt). Soak the bird for 24 to 48 hours, dry in the refridgerator for 3 or 4. Now try applying some of judy rogers technique by patting the bird dry and salting the skin pretty liberally. This part is important: use peanut or grapeseed oil, preferably the latter b/c it wont impart as much flavor. Youll never achieve the skin that you want before olive oil burns. After the skin goes brown(which takes some time) throw the pan in the oven and finish the bird. Make sure to let it rest for 5-10 minutes and you should find that this is about as close as anyone can get to Chef Rutas chicken.

[Al Dente]

mhberk, you're doing god's work.

if i have enough time, i'm going to give your tips a shot this weekend and document the results.

chef ruta, we're on to you!

[mhberk]

mhberk, you're doing god's work.

if i have enough time, i'm going to give your tips a shot this weekend and document the results.

chef ruta, we're on to you!

Let me know how it goes.

The variations that I made were to use 1 1/2 cups of salt and sugar (instead of the ratio that was in the recipe). But I think I'll bump the salt up to 2 cups next time. I also used 4 sprigs of all (including the rosemary) the fresh herbs and I tore them into smaller pieces. And for the dry ingredients, I used a mortar & pestle (just as Suzanne Goin did on "How to Cook Everything") to release the flavors and oils. A food processor can be substituted for the mortar & pestle using the pulse mode.

It's good eats!!

[Al Dente]

Step one of my attempt to scale Mt Palena is complete. The brine:

½ cup kosher salt

1 ¾ cups sugar

1 cup honey

½ tbl dried thyme

1 tbl fennel seeds

1 cinnamon stick

3 large bay leaves

5 cloves

6 cardamom pods

1 tbl mixed peppercorns

½ tbl whole allspice

1 tbl vanilla extract

2 tbl chopped parsley

1 tbl tarragon

zest of 1 lemon

3 star anise

1 gallon H2O

The brine is cooling and I have an organic 5 lb chicken chillin' in the fridge. The chicken was from Eastern Market.

Here is the brine...

Next step, cut out the chicken back, split in two, and toss in the brine overnight.

[Al Dente]

Step 2, hack up the bird...

And drop in the brine for night's rest...

The brine smells great-- almost tea-like. If I can make it 1/2 as well as Palena, I'll be happy.

[Barbara]

Step 2, hack up the bird...

And drop in the brine for night's rest...

The brine smells great-- almost tea-like. If I can make it 1/2 as well as Palena, I'll be happy.

You go, Boy!

[Al Dente]

So, ready to eat?

First up, my world famous couscous. Okay, maybe not "my" couscous, but my wife digs the stuff.

The chicken is ready to go in the oven. I set it at 375.

After 45 mins, I cranked up the broiler and kept an eye on it.

Dinner is served.

I couldn't help but pull a Rockwellian move. Think I'll be in the Post soon?

(hat by Al Dente's wife's closet, gloves by Rubbermaid)

Critique: I used too much vanilla, but it definitely needs to be in there. I think I should use 1/2 what I put in. Also, it needs more salt. And I think the sugar and honey leaves too much of a chance for over-carmelization. Here is my revised brine.

Revised BRINE:

3/4 cup kosher salt

1 cup sugar

1 cup honey

½ tbl dried thyme

1 tbl fennel seeds

1 cinnamon stick

3 large bay leaves

5 cloves

6 cardamom pods

2 tbl mixed peppercorns

½ tbl whole allspice

1/2 tbl vanilla extract

2 tbl chopped parsley

1 tbl tarragon

zest and juice of 1 lemon

3 star anise

1 gallon H2O

The mirepoix helped with the flavor, and I ate some of it when it was done. I had a 5 lb chicken and used 2 medium carrots, 2 stalks of celery, and a 1/2 a large red onion.

Edited January 9, 2006 by Al Dente

[Barbara]

Yeah, but HOW DID IT TASTE?????

[Al Dente]

Yeah, but HOW DID IT TASTE?????

Sheesh, forgot the most important part. It was damn good. Very juicy, and the flavors were certainly Palena-ish. Like I said though, I over did it on the vanilla, but I'm certain it should be there in some capacity. I think increasing the peppercorns will help to give it a bit more bite. I think having the star anise, fennel seed, and tarragon is necessary to give it that anise kick.

All in all, it was probably one of the best roast chickens I've ever done. I need to roast it differently in order to get more crispiness in the skin. All that sugar and honey burned the skin slightly in a few spots, so lowering the sugar content should help. Perhaps I need to let it dry in the fridge longer than the 6 hours or so I allowed. I also think something might be missing-- something with an earthy spiciness. Not sure what though at this point. Maybe cumin, but I don't think it needs that smoky quality. More allspice? More cardamom?

It's someone else's turn now. All I ask is that you take a picture of yourself and your chicken similar to mine above .

[mhberk]

I need to roast it differently in order to get more crispiness in the skin. All that sugar and honey burned the skin slightly in a few spots, so lowering the sugar content should help.

Al,

Perhaps it might help if you start out with hot oven (450-500 degrees) and then lower it after 20 minutes or so. This will sear the skin and allow it to crisp before the fat starts to roll off. It will maintain its crisp even when the temp is lowered. This has been my experience. The color of my chicken was also more consistant throughout the exterior of the skin using this method.

Also, when you say the skin burned, did it taste burnt or was it just the appearance? When I did mine, it had the appearance of being over-cooked, but it tasted fine.

BTW, what was your inspiration for your recipe?

[Al Dente]

Al,

Perhaps it might help if you start out with hot oven (450-500 degrees) and then lower it after 20 minutes or so.  This will sear the skin and allow it to crisp before the fat starts to roll off.  It will maintain its crisp even when the temp is lowered.  This has been my experience.  The color of my chicken was also more consistant throughout the exterior of the skin using this method.

Also, when you say the skin burned, did it taste burnt or was it just the appearance?  When I did mine, it had the appearance of being over-cooked, but it tasted fine. 

BTW, what was your inspiration for your recipe?

It looked a little burned in a couple of spots, but didn't taste like it. The inspiration was your recipe pretty much-- but with a little tweaking. It was definitely a good starting off point.

[jm chen]

Perhaps I need to let it dry in the fridge longer than the 6 hours or so I allowed.

There's a suggestion upthread about multiple days of drying. That might do the trick.

Thanks for performing the experiment and posting the results! I might make the attempt, but first, looks like I will have to purchase some gloves for the photo-essay requirement portion.

[Darth Tater]

It looked a little burned in a couple of spots, but didn't taste like it. The inspiration was your recipe pretty much-- but with a little tweaking. It was definitely a good starting off point.

Question--how would the cooking times and temps change if one were to do this recipe with a whole chicken? Or is absolutely essential to cut it in half?

My primary concern with roasting the chicken whole is that I typically start the chicken out on high heat, breast side down so as not to over cook the tender white meat before the legs are done. Would that ruin the crispy skin we're looking to attain though?

Thanks for all your hard work on this project.

[mhberk]

My primary concern with roasting the chicken whole is that I typically start the chicken out on high heat, breast side down so as not to over cook the tender white meat before the legs are done.  Would that ruin the crispy skin we're looking to attain though?

Darth,

The recipe that I used was from Patrick O'Connell's Refined American Cuisine : The Inn at Little Washington . I first saw this recipe on the internet and it called for a whole chicken and it is cooked as a whole chicken. (You can find my earlier post here) When I saw his book at Borders, I noticed that he had the same recipe but this time he called for a whole turkey instead of a chicken.

I think Al has inspired me to make it again and document it with pictures this time.

[Darth Tater]

Darth,

The recipe that I used was from Patrick O'Connell's Refined American Cuisine : The Inn at Little Washington . I first saw this recipe on the internet and it called for a whole chicken and it is cooked as a whole chicken. (You can find my earlier post here) When I saw his book at Borders, I noticed that he had the same recipe but this time he called for a whole turkey instead of a chicken.

I think Al has inspired me to make it again and document it with pictures this time.

So I shouldn't bother with starting the chicken breast side down then? The recipe you reference utilizes relatively low temp cooking, but my understanding is yours and others efforts for the Palena-like crisp skin require much higher heat (at least initially).

[mhberk]

So I shouldn't bother with starting the chicken breast side down then?  The recipe you reference utilizes relatively low temp cooking, but my understanding is yours and others efforts for the Palena-like crisp skin require much higher heat (at least initially).

Well, again, that's how Patrick O'Connell does his. When I made it, I used halves. I would suggest (if you plan on making it whole) to put the oven rack in the middle to lower rack position and then make it as you would your turkey on Thanksgiving. Let the oven heat up to 450-500 degrees for 20 minutes before you stick it in and then bake it at 450-500 for the first 15-20 minutes. Then lower to the lower temp.

Just my suggestion

[squidsdc]

FWIW, I do know that Palena's chicken has garlic in it, so you may want to add that when you "tweak" the recipe.

Edited January 11, 2006 by squidsdc

[mhberk]

Al,

How'd you make your brussell sprouts? They look great!!

[Darth Tater]

In trying to gather all the ingredients to make this brine, I have had no luck finding star anise--none at the regular grocery stores or Whole Foods. Is star anise a must-have for the brine, or could I replace it with regular old anise seeds? Or does anyone know where I might be able to pick up some star anise?

thanks

[mdt]

In trying to gather all the ingredients to make this brine, I have had no luck finding star anise--none at the regular grocery stores or Whole Foods.  Is star anise a must-have for the brine, or could I replace it with regular old anise seeds?  Or does anyone know where I might be able to pick up some star anise?

thanks

Info on star anise here. I don't really agree with their assesment of it being a much stronger regular anise as it has a much more warm and cinammon like component too.

Anyway I have bought it recently at Shopper's Food Warehouse.

[Demetrius]

I would strongly suggest Penzeys. Check out their website below.

http://www.penzeys.com/

[Tweaked]

In trying to gather all the ingredients to make this brine, I have had no luck finding star anise--none at the regular grocery stores or Whole Foods.  Is star anise a must-have for the brine, or could I replace it with regular old anise seeds?  Or does anyone know where I might be able to pick up some star anise?

thanks

If you live near the Hill, the Yes Gourmet has star anise in the bulk food section in the back. In fact their bulk food section is pretty damn good for such a small grocery store.

Edited January 12, 2006 by Tweaked

[Mrs. B]

In trying to gather all the ingredients to make this brine, I have had no luck finding star anise--none at the regular grocery stores or Whole Foods.  Is star anise a must-have for the brine, or could I replace it with regular old anise seeds?  Or does anyone know where I might be able to pick up some star anise?

thanks

Large bags are usually available at the little Vietnamese grocer on Park Road between 14th & 15th NW.

[RaisaB]

Al,

Perhaps it might help if you start out with hot oven (450-500 degrees) and then lower it after 20 minutes or so.  This will sear the skin and allow it to crisp before the fat starts to roll off.  It will maintain its crisp even when the temp is lowered.  This has been my experience.  The color of my chicken was also more consistant throughout the exterior of the skin using this method.

Also, when you say the skin burned, did it taste burnt or was it just the appearance?  When I did mine, it had the appearance of being over-cooked, but it tasted fine. 

BTW, what was your inspiration for your recipe?

Okay, I have never had Palena's chicken but I am intrigued. I am off to the store to buy a couple of chickens and the rest of the ingredients. Do you buy a roasting chicken or a couple of good sizes regular chickens. I will be going to Trader Joes in Centreville for them.

I will be doing this over the weekend in North Carolina, internet is sketchy there, so my question is on the baking part. On a convection oven wouldn't you just leave the temperature levels constant, albeit slower, and then at the end blast it if you need a cripier skin?

[Al Dente]

If you live near the Hill, the Yes Gourmet has star anise in the bulk food section in the back.  In fact their bulk food section is pretty damn good for such a small grocery store.

That's where I got mine.

[sparkycom]

I get my star anise (and other goodies) at Da Hua (I think that's the name) in DC Chinatown. It's on H St. between 6th & 7th as I recall....

Edited January 12, 2006 by sparkycom

[Darth Tater]

I get my star anise (and other goodies) at Da Hua (I think that's the name) in DC Chinatown. It's on H St. between 6th & 7th as I recall....

Unfortunately I'm pretty sure Da Hua closed some time back due to increasing rent prices. Not sure what has moved into that space.

Thanks to everyone's suggestions about star anise--I'm heading to Yes! Gourmet tonight after work.

One last question--regarding the brine time and air dry time for the chicken. The timing seems kind of awkward since 24 hours is recommended for the brine, and 6-8 hours for drying time--and really the only time to start the brine is in the evenings, meaning that if the chicken went into the brine one evening, it would come out the following evening, but then would likely rest for another 24 hours before being cooked. Which part should I sacrifice: a shorter brine of 12 hours overnight, or the longer air drying time in the fridge? I would imagine that a 36 hour brine would be too long and render the chicken salty.

thanks

[sparkycom]

Unfortunately I'm pretty sure Da Hua closed some time back due to increasing rent prices. Not sure what has moved into that space.

Well, rats. It has been some time (5 months) since I paid a visit to stock up. Thanks for the update.

[laniloa]

Reporting in on my entry to the Palena Chicken Project. I essentially followed Al Dente's revised brine but added more peppercorns, halved the vanilla and had to sub cardamom seeds instead of pods because they don't sell pods in these parts. Yeah, I know, Penzy's. I brined overnight and let dry in the fridge while I was at work. I added 2 smashed cloves of garlic to my mirepoix and some diced squash because I had it handy and why not. I took Chef Pangaud's advice and brushed the chicken with melted butter several times. Started it at 450 for 20 minutes and then dropped down to 425.

This is the best damn chicken I ever roasted. Very flavorful. Very moist. My cat was dancing around my feet begging for scraps.

Changes for next time. I definitely need to dry the chicken longer as the sides were a little soft. The part that did crisp was very crispy and definitely darker then my usual roasting. Even though I said this was the best damn chicken I ever roasted, I still think it is missing some flavor(s) but I haven't a clue what.

[Al Dente]

Unfortunately I'm pretty sure Da Hua closed some time back due to increasing rent prices.  Not sure what has moved into that space.

Thanks to everyone's suggestions about star anise--I'm heading to Yes! Gourmet tonight after work.

One last question--regarding the brine time and air dry time for the chicken.  The timing seems kind of awkward since 24 hours is recommended for the brine, and 6-8 hours for drying time--and really the only time to start the brine is in the evenings, meaning that if the chicken went into the brine one evening, it would come out the following evening, but then would likely rest for another 24 hours before being cooked.  Which part should I sacrifice: a shorter brine of 12 hours overnight, or the longer air drying time in the fridge?  I would imagine that a 36 hour brine would be too long and render the chicken salty.

thanks

Not sure what to tell you Darth. I started my brine on a Sat morning, yanked it out Sun morning, and let it air dry all afternoon before roasting. I suppose I could have gotten away with less brining and I definitely could have used more drying time.

[Roo]

Definately saw star anise at the Whole Foods on P St. last week as I shopped last week. Of course, my chicken was already brining by that point. I had gone to Yes Gourmet the previous morning but obviously didn't look in the right section. I only found half the needed spices so just omitted what I lacked.

I was serving 11 people so I ended up brining two 6 lbs birds overnight and drying in the fridge from morning to early evening.

The meat came out very moist but I didn't get the skin all that right. I am going to try again soon with a single smaller bird (probably cut in half) -- I won't be so overwhelmed trying to carve two big roasters.

I was definitely impressed with how the meat came out but want to try and get the skin right...

[Al Dente]

Even though I said this was the best damn chicken I ever roasted, I still think it is missing some flavor(s) but I haven't a clue what.

Good work! You're adding to the collective wisdom. Any idea what kind of taste is missing? Earthiness? Sweetness? Spicyness?

[laniloa]

Good work! You're adding to the collective wisdom. Any idea what kind of taste is missing? Earthiness? Sweetness? Spicyness?

Earthiness for sure and maybe a touch of something spicy to tingle your tongue ever so slightly. Maybe some ginger for the tingle? Mustard seed? Marjaram?

[RaisaB]

Okay my brine is cooling down at this moment. I added the rosemary back, in addtion to green cardamon, I added black cardamon also. I added mustard seeds back and candied ginger as I didn't have any regular ginger.

The only problem is I have no Palena chicken to compare it to, so I am going there next week to compare theirs to mine!

Edited to correct spelling and ponder, is it me or does everyone's spelling go down the drain as they get older?

Edited January 13, 2006 by RaisaB

[Jacques Gastreaux]

Edited  to correct spelling and ponder, is it me or does everyone's spelling go down the drain as they get older?

I notice that the timing of your post is well into the cocktail "hour."

[RaisaB]

I notice that the timing of your post is well into the cocktail "hour."

I wish I could blame it on that, but I can't. At least not tonight.

[Al Dente]

Earthiness for sure and maybe a touch of something spicy to tingle your tongue ever so slightly.  Maybe some ginger for the tingle?  Mustard seed? Marjaram?

I thought it needed something spicy too. Ginger could be worth a shot. Paprika of some kind maybe?

[CrescentFresh]

When roasting those half chickens, did you simply have them sitting on your bed of carrot, onion, celery chunks? Or did you place them on a rack?

I'm wondering what might happen if I put the rack in upside down and leaned each half of the chicken on each side of it.

[Al Dente]

When roasting those half chickens, did you simply have them sitting on your bed of carrot, onion, celery chunks?  Or did you place them on a rack? 

I'm wondering what might happen if I put the rack in upside down and leaned each half of the chicken on each side of it.

I put it on a bed of mirepoix. You could definitely try your rack trick.

[RaisaB]

I roasted my chickens last night. I also had uneven browning, probably due to the high sugar content. I used one recipe of brine for double the amount of chicken. I bought the organic free range chickens at Eastern Market! My family's opinion? Theythought it was moist, crispy and delicious! My opinion? YUCK! I like chicken to taste like chicken! This brine masked any chicken taste! Too much going on.

Unfortuantey since they all loved it, I will probably make it again.

[mhberk]

When roasting those half chickens, did you simply have them sitting on your bed of carrot, onion, celery chunks?  Or did you place them on a rack? 

I'm wondering what might happen if I put the rack in upside down and leaned each half of the chicken on each side of it.

Well? Please report!

[CrescentFresh]

Well?  Please report!

Well, the report is not very conclusive for The Project as I wasn't trying to recreate Palena, but I did want to get my feet wet a little before I go all out and join this party. I simply brined overnight 2 half chickens from WF in the salt along with some sliced chiles, black peppercorns, bay leaves and a little sugar.

They then dried in the fridge for about 8 hours.

Preheated oven to 500 and roasted on an inverted V-rack over the mirepoix plus garlic cloves and parsley to which I added chicken broth and white wine. I lighly massaged the chicken with a softened butter and parsley mixture. After 20 minutes lowered the temp to 425 or so and continued cooking until my probe thermometer beeped at 158 internal temp.

The chicken was quite moist and flavorful, except for the thinner parts of the breast, which wasn't dry, but seemed to be less moist. The skin did not crisp/brown as I had hoped. That part was a failure and I'm unsure why. Possibly because of the butter. Possibly because I should have cooked the higher temp first. Perhaps steam from the wine/broth. I'm unsure.

Here's a question though. I was rather surprised at how fast my probe (pyrex brand digital) indicated the bird reached temperature. I double checked by inserting my instant read dial thermometer and that showed 10 degrees lower than the probe. I did take care to avoid all bone contact.

My inclination is to trust the digital rather than the dial. Am I right in presuming that the dial could potentially lose calibration?

[mdt]

My inclination is to trust the digital rather than the dial.  Am I right in presuming that the dial could potentially lose calibration?

If the batteries are fresh, trust the digital one.

The ones with the dial can lose calibration rather easily if they get knocked around a bit. Just calibrate in some ice water (low end, probably not really necessary) and/or boiling water (high end). There is a nut below the dial that can be loosend/tightened for adjustment.

[mhberk]

Well, the report is not very conclusive for The Project as I wasn't trying to recreate Palena, but I did want to get my feet wet a little before I go all out and join this party.

I think the next step for us should be to get together and do this "America's Test Kitchen" style!

[zoramargolis]

Preheated oven to 500 and roasted on an inverted V-rack over the mirepoix plus garlic cloves and parsley to which I added chicken broth and white wine.  I lighly massaged the chicken with a softened butter and parsley mixture.  After 20 minutes lowered the temp to 425 or so and continued cooking until my probe thermometer beeped at 158 internal temp. 

The chicken was quite moist and flavorful, except for the thinner parts of the breast, which wasn't dry, but seemed to be less moist.  The skin did not crisp/brown as I had hoped.  That part was a failure and I'm unsure why.  Possibly because of the butter.  Possibly because I should have cooked the higher temp first.  Perhaps steam from the wine/broth.  I'm unsure. 

The whole point of roasting is to cook the meat surrounded by hot, dry air. The steam from the wine and broth created an environment of moist rather than dry heat, and thus you defeated the advance air-drying of the skin that you did. In addition, there is some water in the butter you used--olive oil would have been better. The wine-stock technique works well for meat in a barbeque, or for a very large bird like a turkey, where it is going to be cooked for a long time and the steam helps to prevent the meat from drying out. If you want crisp skin and the cooking time will be short (due to high oven temp), brown the skin in hot oil before putting in the oven or coat with oil and turn the bird around and over during the cooking, so that all sides will have equal exposure to the hottest air in the oven.

All year round, I like to roast chickens in my Weber Kettle with indirect heat. With hardwood charcoal, it gets so hot inside that the skin gets blackened even when it is not directly over the coals. I turn the bird around and over several times during the cook time (45 mins to 1 hour, depending on the size of the bird), and when it's done the skin crackles and the meat hopefully stays juicy by virtue of the advance brining.

[Al Dente]

If all goes according to plan, I should be scarfing down a Palena chicken tonight. Perhaps I should bring my Acme DetectoSpice to help with decoding this recipe.

[Banco]

All year round, I like to roast chickens in my Weber Kettle with indirect heat.

Absolutely. I've tried many different techniques, including the classical French method(s) for roasting chicken, and I have never found a better way to a tender, crispy, juicy bird than the Weber grill. I don't even brine or turn the chicken, and it still comes out perfect. The only drawback, as for most grilling, is that you cannot make a pan suace.

[porcupine]

If all goes according to plan, I should be scarfing down a Palena chicken tonight. Perhaps I should bring my Acme DetectoSpice to help with decoding this recipe.

perhaps I will see you there.

[Capital Icebox]

Perhaps there's something else that still needs to be added to the brine?

[Al Dente]

Perhaps there's something else that still needs to be added to the brine?

Interesting. I do think the chicken has a tea like flavor. Perhaps it might be the missing element.

Chef Ruta, if you're reading... I'll be at the bar in about an hour or so wearing black pants and a green fleece jacket. Any clues, however cryptic, would be much appreciated!!!

Edited January 18, 2006 by Al Dente

[mhberk]

If all goes according to plan, I should be scarfing down a Palena chicken tonight. Perhaps I should bring my Acme DetectoSpice to help with decoding this recipe.

Well? Did you get any more insight?

[Al Dente]

Well?  Did you get any more insight?

Unfortunately, no. I'm just more envious than ever.

mdt says he'll give it a shot this weekend adding some garam masala.

[mdt]

I used Al Dente's revised recipe with some additions and the results were wonderful. I think this is pretty damn close to what I had earlier in the week. I think the brine needs a bit more salt and a touch more tarragon. Of course Frank keeps changing the brine recipe so YMMV. I increased the cinnamon and that added the earthy spice that Al Dente mentioned was missing. This was the best damn chicken that I have roasted.

Bought 2 chickens from Whole Foods and brined them overnight. Removed from the brine and rinsed and patted dry before putting them on rack to dry in the fridge for about 24 hours. The skin was definitely dried and I had no doubt that the skin was going to be nice and crispy.

Before cooking I removed them from the fridge and split them before placing them on the counter for about 30 minutes. I lightly brushed the skin with olive oil before placing them in my oven. I have a convection oven and set it to 450F in roasting mode (top element generates the heat). After 15 minutes I changed it over to convection bake (bottom element and small portion of the top generate the heat) mode until they were done cooking. The kitchen smells wonderful when this is in the oven.

Brine recipe that I used:

3/4 c kosher salt (I would up this to 1 c)

1 c sugar

1 c honey

1/2 T dried thyme

1 T fennel seed

1 cinnamon stick

3 large bay leaves

7 cloves (I increased the amount)

11 cardamom posts -- cracked (I increased the amount)

2 T black peppercorns

1/2 T whole allspice

1/2 T vanilla extract

2 T chopped parsley

1 T dried tarragon

zest and juice of 1 lemon

3 star anise

1 gallong H20

As it was heating up I tasted the brine and thought it needed something and ended up adding the following items:

6 cloves of garlic

1/2 T corriander seeds

1/2 T garam masala (Penzey's mix)

1 t fresh ground nutmeg

1 T ground cinnamon (the stick was not doing much)

Sorry about not doing a picture with the hat and such, but we were hungry.

[laniloa]

I made my second entry this weekend. No whole chickens at the store so I went with a package of 3 breasts for a mini-batch. I started with half the basic Al Dente recipe and added 2 cloves garlic, some chunks of ginger, and 1 tsp mustard seed. I forgot tarragon. I used lime instead of lemon since I forgot to pick up a lemon.

Brined for 4 hours and dried in the fridge overnight and brought to room temp before cooking. Two breasts were lightly rubbed with grapeseed oil and place on a bed of mirepoix in a 475 degree oven for 20 minutes and then reduced to 425 degrees. The third breast was seared with a little grapeseed oil and then into the 425 degree oven to finish.

Verdict -- The ginger and garlic were nice additions but not noticeable enough. I'm thinking of infusing the oil with the ginger and garlic next time. The additional time drying in the fridge made a world of difference in the oven cooked skin. The oven roasted chicken was far superior to the stove top both in terms of evenly browned, crispy skin without dark spots and for the pan sauce that benefited from the mirepoix flavor. The breasts cooked very quickly and I probably should have turned the temp down sooner. The shorter brining yielded a milder flavor that was still quite noticeable for the plain chicken and will be more flexible as I turn the chicken into various lunches this week.

[Al Dente]

Keep up the good work everyone. We'll put Palena outta biz before you know it!

I keed, I keed...

[jm chen]

So, I'm brining...

do y'all rinse the brine off the chicken before you let it air-dry? I thought I saw a "rinse" in mdt's instructions but didn't pick up on a general rinse/norinse recommendation. The chicken's still whole, so rinsing's a hassle, but will the skin be too salty without the washing?

[mdt]

So, I'm brining...

do y'all rinse the brine off the chicken before you let it air-dry? I thought I saw a "rinse" in mdt's instructions but didn't pick up on a general rinse/norinse recommendation. The chicken's still whole, so rinsing's a hassle, but will the skin be too salty without the washing?

I always rinse after brining so I cannot say if it makes a difference. A hassle to rinse? You can always cut the chicken first then rinse.

[Al Dente]

I didn't rinse and it wasn't too salty.

[mhberk]

I didn't rinse and it wasn't too salty.

I didn't rinse either. I just patted with a few paper towels and picked all the fresh spices and herbs off.

[zoramargolis]

I strain out the herbs and spices from the cooled brine before I pour it on the meat. I always do a brief rinse after brining, and then dry with paper towels.

[mdt]

So, I'm brining...

do y'all rinse the brine off the chicken before you let it air-dry? I thought I saw a "rinse" in mdt's instructions but didn't pick up on a general rinse/norinse recommendation. The chicken's still whole, so rinsing's a hassle, but will the skin be too salty without the washing?

So, how did it turn out?

[jm chen]

I was holding off on my report until I could transfer the photos off my camera, but I can add those in later. Then y'all can see my hat. And, of course, the chicken.

It was delicious, but saltier than I expected. The wings were like potato chips. And that with only a cup of salt in the brine! And unfortunately I can't report on whether the skin was crisp, since I got too involved in taking pictures and by the time I got around to tasting the skin, it was soggy. Let that be a lesson, I guess.

(But I didn't rinse, and the skin I sampled wasn't salty, so that answers that question.)

When we ate it it tasted like salt was the predominant flavor, but after brining another chicken (without skin -- an experiment I'm not likely to repeat) with only salt and sugar, my +1 remarked maybe we just didn't realize how much of the flavor from the first chicken was due to the brine spices. I didn't put vanilla or honey in the brine, but it did include salt, sugar, star anise, allspice berries, tarragon, peppercorns, coriander, and fresh rosemary. And it sure made the house smell nice while it roasted.

Oh, and I don't have a metal roasting rack, but I did have some leftover shoots and fronds from a bulb of anise, so I laid those down in the pan and placed the chicken on top. Highly recommended, it seemed to help the fat and moisture drain down while the meat cooked.

Pix to come.

Edited February 17, 2006 by jm chen

[crackers]

The chicken I had at Palena tonight had three notes: star anise, salt and clove. I know it had clove because I bit into one that had gotten stuck in a bend in the wing. Whooo-eeee - clove can be pretty strong when you bite into a whole one. I didn't catch so much as a whiff of cardamom - a spice I can usually detect in minute amounts.

[Al Dente]

I'm going again tonight and may have the chicken again. I'm curious to see if it tastes different than last time-- perhaps the Chef changes the brine every now and then. I could swear I tasted cardamom last time.

[mdt]

I'm going again tonight and may have the chicken again. I'm curious to see if it tastes different than last time-- perhaps the Chef changes the brine every now and then. I could swear I tasted cardamom last time.

I am pretty sure I was told that the brine does change from time to time. I think they key is brine (if you like) with a good selection of spice, dry overnight, and roast on high heat for a crispy skin.

[Jacques Gastreaux]

I am pretty sure I was told that the brine does change from time to time.  I think they key is brine (if you like) with a good selection of spice, dry overnight, and roast on high heat for a crispy skin.

If the brine changes, then trying to reproduce the Palena roast chicken would be a fruitless exercise, would it not?

[mdt]

If the brine changes, then trying to reproduce the Palena roast chicken would be a fruitless exercise, would it not?

Reproducing it exactly? Yes. But if it helps to roast a better bird does it really matter? I don't think it is the spice that everyone is going ga-ga over its overall flavor, crispy skin, and moist meat.

[zoramargolis]

I'm going again tonight and may have the chicken again. I'm curious to see if it tastes different than last time-- perhaps the Chef changes the brine every now and then. I could swear I tasted cardamom last time.

The last time I had it, I tasted tarragon all the way to the bone.

[Sthitch]

I made a chicken very similar to Al Dente's original recipe, without the fresh herbs. But I added about a quarter cup of loose leaf Earl Grey tea, and about 10 Juniper Berries. I brined it for about 20 hours, and then let it air dry for another 24. I roasted it at 425 for 40 minutes and then another couple minutes under the broiler to further crisp the skin.

While it was roasting it almost smelled like bread baking. The meat was juicy, and very flavorful. The tea added a very Asian flavor to the chicken. Next time I am thinking of using Lapsong Susong tea instead, I am hoping that this will provide a nice smoky component to the chicken.

[Ferhat Yalcin]

if you want the chicken to be more tender and moist inside , try poaching for about 15 minutes first and roasting 25 minutes wtih the same recipe and temperature.

[mhberk]

Last time I was there, I heard the waiter mention that they pan roast it before they put it in the oven. I think that that makes sense. I'm going to try it that way next time.

[Al Dente]

Last time I was there, I heard the waiter mention that they pan roast it before they put it in the oven.  I think that that makes sense.  I'm going to try it that way next time.

Funny you mention this article. I tried the Cook's Illustrated pan roasting method just last night on some leg quarters and breasts. While I didn't use a Palena-inspired brine or anything, the crispiness and texture seemed very nearly Ruta-esque. The pan sauce recipes in that article work great, btw. And the oven fry recipe ain't bad either.

[laniloa]

Funny you mention this article. I tried the Cook's Illustrated pan roasting method just last night on some leg quarters and breasts. While I didn't use a Palena-inspired brine or anything, the crispiness and texture seemed very nearly Ruta-esque. The pan sauce recipes in that article work great, btw. And the oven fry recipe ain't bad either.

This is my default weeknight roast chicken method. Excellent for eating at the time and wonderful in salads and sandwiches for lunch. I strongly prefer white meat for roasting and tend to either just get parts or save the thighs and legs for braising.

[mhberk]

Funny you mention this article. I tried the Cook's Illustrated pan roasting method just last night on some leg quarters and breasts. While I didn't use a Palena-inspired brine or anything, the crispiness and texture seemed very nearly Ruta-esque. The pan sauce recipes in that article work great, btw. And the oven fry recipe ain't bad either.

What kind of oil did you use and how much did that contribute to the flavor of the skin?

I think I'm ready to give this another try

[Al Dente]

What kind of oil did you use and how much did that contribute to the flavor of the skin?

I just used canola, so not much flavor added really.

[jm chen]

New information, at least to me: I'm told that the pan-roasting step is performed on the cut side of the chicken half, not the skin side. So the crispy skin is from the high heat roasting, and the pan-roasting step is intended to sear/seal for juiciness.

Interest in recreating Palena chicken in the chen household has skyrocketed given a recent taste of the original. We were also told vanilla generally shows up in the brine in fall or winter--primary flavors this time around were star anise, clove, and tarragon. And now that I have a mean-looking set of poultry shears, I'm ready to try halving the bird, and getting yet closer to Palena-style.