Farmers Fishers Bakers (formerly Agraria, etc.) - Chef Joe Coetze Also Works With Founding Farmers

[Chris Cunningham]

Let's wait for new chef Moore before we pass that judgment. But it is the most important bar in the city for drinkers.

Not to downplay Agraria's cocktail list and quality of product, but there are few places around town that take their drinks seriously, so who do sleep with behind the bar?

[Chica Grace]

Last night I went to Agraria, which surprisingly had a table available at 9:00 pm on Saturday night with no reservation. The bar area and dining room are gorgeous. It was a beautiful evening at the Harbor and the open windows from the bar/bistro area onto the patio with a stunning view of the primary fountain at the Georgetown waterfront is amazing. So, for gorgeous seating and people watching - GREAT. However, the only thing that was worth it were the drinks. The sommelier was very cordial and recommended excellent cocktails. I had something called the Cynthia - a lemony martini flavored with Anise, and my dinner companion also had a vodka flavored drink with some shi shi vodka - Hanger 10, with some sort of homemade Tonic. Note: the homemade drinks at Restaurant Eve in Old Town Alexandria surprass Agraria's attempts at uniqueness - that is in terms of taste.

Now, for the food. First - its incredibly overpriced for what you get. Second, the wait staff starts the evening noting that the chef will not start working until July 17th, and that after the 17th - there should be more variety & selection. At first, I didn't quite understand why the wait staff was starting off the evening with such a statement. And then I understood when I started tasting the food. I got the Caesar's salad - comes with fresh anchovies & quail eggs and the Pan-Seared Sallops with creme fraiche & caviar. My dinner companion, the watercress salad with citrus ( also has some shaved fennel) & then the Tagiatelle with fresh Pesto and pine nuts. The Caesar's salad was pre-prepared in a refrigerator - so it was not freshly-made. ( you can tell when the plate is served super cold and "sweating" from the condensation). The dressing was sub-par, at best. the only thing that was redeeming of the salad was the fresh anchovies. Those were excellent. The scallops had not been cooked correctly as there was a crusty brown rim on each of them - from sitting underneath a heating window too long. And then the sauces served witht he scallops - too many of them and too many flavors. There was caviar sprinkled on top of the scallops, and then the sauce base was creme fraiche and some type of pesto. Quite frankly, with all these sauces, there was still very little taste to the entire dish. And by the way - the scallop dish alone costs $29. Ridiculous considering it doesn't taste like anything AND the scallops were not cooked correctly.

Care to know more about my dinner companion's dishes? The watercress salad started off ok - if Agraria would just stick to one type of citrus. Instead, they insert BOTH mandarin orange, as well as sliced of lime. it also included shaved fennel. The overall dressing did not complement the watercress. It doesn't blend together and it sets the palate to different tastes without enjoying one or the other. Then the Tagiatelle was undercooked. Several of the pasta noodles were not Al dente. And from my perspective - there is no need to top off a pesto dish with pine nuts, since pesto sauce already has pine nuts in it.

We did not have dessert.

Overall, the service was friendly and up beat. However, I felt rushed, especially since it was easy to get a table. The plates came out way too fast, tining was off - for instance, salads were already on the table before any fresh bread appeared, and the wait staff asked 2-3 times "Are you finished? Can I take that away for you". I hate that. The wait staff, although friendly, needs some lessons in how to serve and not bother people when they are still finishing their plate.

And for two drinks, two starters, and two mains, we paid $101. Overpriced .

In General - This restaurant has kinks that need to be worked. Most importantly, they need a menu and food that tastes like something. I hope that when the chef shows up - sometime later this month, that I can post something different. But for now, just go for the drinks and the view.

[Thrasher]

Maria and I went last Monday the drinks were great and the food was just as good! Go now and go often!!!

[jparrott]

Well, Agraria's bar has a few more seats than Dino's IIRC .

[DHagedorn]

Last night I went to Agraria, which surprisingly had a table available at 9:00 pm on Saturday night with no reservation. The bar area and dining room are gorgeous. It was a beautiful evening at the Harbor and the open windows from the bar/bistro area onto the patio with a stunning view of the primary fountain at the Georgetown waterfront is amazing. So, for gorgeous seating and people watching - GREAT. However, the only thing that was worth it were the drinks. The sommelier was very cordial and recommended excellent cocktails. I had something called the Cynthia - a lemony martini flavored with Anise, and my dinner companion also had a vodka flavored drink with some shi shi vodka - Hanger 10, with some sort of homemade Tonic. Note: the homemade drinks at Restaurant Eve in Old Town Alexandria surprass Agraria's attempts at uniqueness - that is in terms of taste.

Now, for the food. First - its incredibly overpriced for what you get. Second, the wait staff starts the evening noting that the chef will not start working until July 17th, and that after the 17th - there should be more variety & selection. At first, I didn't quite understand why the wait staff was starting off the evening with such a statement. And then I understood when I started tasting the food. I got the Caesar's salad - comes with fresh anchovies & quail eggs and the Pan-Seared Sallops with creme fraiche & caviar. My dinner companion, the watercress salad with citrus ( also has some shaved fennel) & then the Tagiatelle with fresh Pesto and pine nuts. The Caesar's salad was pre-prepared in a refrigerator - so it was not freshly-made. ( you can tell when the plate is served super cold and "sweating" from the condensation). The dressing was sub-par, at best. the only thing that was redeeming of the salad was the fresh anchovies. Those were excellent. The scallops had not been cooked correctly as there was a crusty brown rim on each of them - from sitting underneath a heating window too long. And then the sauces served witht he scallops - too many of them and too many flavors. There was caviar sprinkled on top of the scallops, and then the sauce base was creme fraiche and some type of pesto. Quite frankly, with all these sauces, there was still very little taste to the entire dish. And by the way - the scallop dish alone costs $29. Ridiculous considering it doesn't taste like anything AND the scallops were not cooked correctly.

Care to know more about my dinner companion's dishes? The watercress salad started off ok - if Agraria would just stick to one type of citrus. Instead, they insert BOTH mandarin orange, as well as sliced of lime. it also included shaved fennel. The overall dressing did not complement the watercress. It doesn't blend together and it sets the palate to different tastes without enjoying one or the other. Then the Tagiatelle was undercooked. Several of the pasta noodles were not Al dente. And from my perspective - there is no need to top off a pesto dish with pine nuts, since pesto sauce already has pine nuts in it.

We did not have dessert.

Overall, the service was friendly and up beat. However, I felt rushed, especially since it was easy to get a table. The plates came out way too fast, tining was off - for instance, salads were already on the table before any fresh bread appeared, and the wait staff asked 2-3 times "Are you finished? Can I take that away for you". I hate that. The wait staff, although friendly, needs some lessons in how to serve and not bother people when they are still finishing their plate.

And for two drinks, two starters, and two mains, we paid $101. Overpriced .

In General - This restaurant has kinks that need to be worked. Most importantly, they need a menu and food that tastes like something. I hope that when the chef shows up - sometime later this month, that I can post something different. But for now, just go for the drinks and the view.

Years ago, writer Dorothy Parker recognized the futility of premature judgments. She responded to a lover apologizing for a hastily concluded performance with the assurance, “Don’t worry; I don’t review rehearsals.”

Ms. Grace, in her comments about Agraria, has reviewed a rehearsal.

This "review" does a tremendous disservice to a restaurant that opened barely a month ago amidst a flurry of well-publicized difficulties. Ms. Grace is certainly entitled to her opinions, but what qualifies her to transform those opinions into facts? After sampling only four dishes, Ms. Grace feels that she has collected sufficient evidence to support the conclusion that the public should not order food at Agraria. In their nascent days, restaurants have enough problems as it is without having someone pass careless public judgments that directly affect their fiscal health and the livelihoods their employees.

The proliferation of the internet has been particularly troublesome for restaurateurs. On foodie blogs and websites, the ability to eat and type is the only qualification necessary to become a Restaurant Critic. Opinions and errors masquerading in the form of reviews regularly pass for factual information which readers then mistake for truth. Online diner reviews have a veneer of authority that casual cocktail party stories about restaurant experiences do not, and restaurateurs are left holding the bag. They have no recourse; even if they had the time to respond to these promulgations, doing so would only open them to more criticism and/or to accusations of excuse-making. And so the public continues to say whatever it wishes without any accountability; they do not have to answer to pesky editors and fact-checkers as real journalists do.

The only hope that restaurant owners have is that someone might come along who calls a diner's comments into question. People who are not journalists but play them online open themselves to scrutiny and must expect to take what they dish out. It is with this in mind that I would like to review Ms. Grace’s comments:

The author does not list any credentials which would suggest that she is an authority on restaurants. The quality of the writing does not instill confidence. Leaving matters of grammar, syntax, and punctuation aside, I will only say that I have learned from experience that a writer’s work improves greatly when the red pencil is taken up in place of the poisoned pen.

“The bar area and dining room are gorgeous.” Why? What do they look like?

“(T)he homemade drinks at Restaurant Eve in Old Town Alexandria surpass Agraria's attempts at uniqueness - that is in terms of taste.” How? Why? How could Ms. Grace make such a sweeping statement after having sampled, at most, two drinks?

“The Caesar's salad was pre-prepared in a refrigerator - so it was not freshly-made. ( you can tell when the plate is served super cold and "sweating" from the condensation).” I do not concur with Ms. Grace’s deductions. The fact that a salad is cold does mean that it was prepared ahead of time. Does Ms. Grace think that restaurants cut and wash lettuce for individual salads to order? Restaurants store salad plates in refrigerators. It is no mystery of science that once a cold plate meets warm air, condensation occurs.

“The dressing was sub-par, at best.” Why? What did it taste like? What makes a dressing “par?”

“The scallops had not been cooked correctly as there was a crusty brown rim on each of them - from sitting underneath a heating window too long.” This is simply incorrect. The brown rim on the scallops indicates that they have been seared. If the dish had been under a heat-lamp long enough for the scallops to “broil,” the scallops would not have browned in a ring.

“And then the sauces served with the scallops - too many of them and too many flavors. There was caviar sprinkled on top of the scallops, and then the sauce base was creme fraiche and some type of pesto. Quite frankly, with all these sauces, there was still very little taste to the entire dish.” Ms. Grace complains of too many flavors and then contradicts herself by saying there was little taste to the dish. It is difficult to believe that caviar and pesto “didn’t taste like anything.”

“And by the way - the scallop dish alone costs $29. Ridiculous considering it doesn't taste like anything AND the scallops were not cooked correctly.” Price is not a function of flavor or degree of doneness. How many scallops were there in the dish? How large were they? What kind of scallops were they? $29 is certainly not out of line for a sea scallop entrée these days, considering that the food cost for the scallops alone could easily be in the $6 range.

“The watercress salad started off ok - if Agraria would just stick to one type of citrus. Instead, they insert BOTH mandarin orange, as well as sliced of lime. it also included shaved fennel. The overall dressing did not complement the watercress. It doesn't blend together and it sets the palate to different tastes without enjoying one or the other.” Since when do orange and lime make a poor combination? Why did the dressing not complement the salad in her opinion? The combination of watercress, orange, lime, and fennel makes perfect sense to me intellectually and there is no compelling evidence here that would suggest otherwise.

“Then the Tagiatelle was undercooked. Several of the pasta noodles were not Al dente.” Does Ms. Grace mean to say that some of the noodles were cooked more than others? That would be a dubious achievement.

“And from my perspective - there is no need to top off a pesto dish with pine nuts, since pesto sauce already has pine nuts in it.” And from my perspective, as a chef, topping a pesto dish with pine nuts is perfectly acceptable; it’s called a garnish.

“We did not have dessert.” In other words, Ms. Grace has not yet researched her subject sufficiently.

“And for two drinks, two starters, and two mains, we paid $101. Overpriced .” I do not know where Ms. Grace has been eating recently, but this sounds like the going rate to me for a restaurant of Agraria’s echelon.

“In General - This restaurant has kinks that need to be worked. Most importantly, they need a menu and food that tastes like something. I hope that when the chef shows up - sometime later this month, that I can post something different. But for now, just go for the drinks and the view.” Of course the restaurant has kinks to work out; it just opened. To say they need food that tastes like something is simply of no value. It is not a criticism; it is an empty statement. Without ever having been to Agraria, I can say with complete confidence that although the food is not to Ms. Grace’s liking, it tastes like something.

Yes, Agraria is open and charging full prices, but that does not mean the public should reject its food based on someone’s questionable opinions. Paying for flawed meals in new restaurants is an investment for which diners should be willing to incur initial losses. It amounts to a leap of faith, a nurturing process of tolerance and patience similar to that which parents undergo while newborn children are learning how to walk.

David Hagedorn

[Waitman]

Paying for flawed meals in new restaurants is an investment for which diners should be willing to incur initial losses. It amounts to a leap of faith, a nurturing process of tolerance and patience similar to that which parents undergo while newborn children are learning how to walk.

David Hagedorn

Oh, please.

[jparrott]

Paying for flawed meals in new restaurants is an investment for which diners should be willing to incur initial losses. It amounts to a leap of faith, a nurturing process of tolerance and patience similar to that which parents undergo while newborn children are learning how to walk.

Yeah, DH, I had you until this bit. But, folks, give the new guy a chance, and go have some cocktails in the interregnum.

[Hannah]

An overly critical response to an overly critical post. Quelle surprise.

[TSE]

Despite being new here, I still cannot help but ask myself whether Mr. Hagedorn understands just how petty and unprofessional such a post makes him appear.

[ScotteeM]

Chef Hagedorn,

Thank you for posting. I see that you've been a member since last October, so I'd say it is fair to expect you to know that this is a forum where consumers and providers can gather to discuss eating and cooking, whether in restaurants or at home. The two primary principles in participating in this forum are, IMO, to make nice as much as possible and to never triple space. Click here to read instructions on triple spacing.

Chica Grace's comments were somewhat harsh, given the context of a new restaurant with an even newer executive chef. The good news is that, in the context of the whole thread, a reader would recognize that and take it into account.

Better than smacking her down to teach her never to post negative comments (or post at all) would be to ask questions for clarification of her criticisms. We've recently had extensive discussion on the forum about negative remarks, and the participants have agreed in principle that negative reviews have a place as long as they are not the product of personal vendetta or general churlishness.

I will close by saying that I love toasted pine nuts, especially as a garnish to pesto sauce. Yum!

[DHagedorn]

Don, I guess you should now close down the website, David has told all of us who don't work in the restaurant business, or for a print publication that we need to shut the hell up and leave it to the professionals like him. Well David, while I might have agreed with some of what you said, I think that it is apparent that you sir are an ass. There are much better ways of countering what she wrote in her post than to attack the whole idea of people sharing their opinions concerning restaurants on this site or other like it.

I did not attack the idea of people sharing their opinions. After all, I expressed my opinion here and apparently that makes me an ass. I countered what the author said point by point and supported my argument with evidence.

I took exception to representing opinions as facts and then advising the public to boycott a restaurant's food. That is not a suggestion that should be made casually. I think people should expect to accept responsibility for what they say and realize that their comments can affect other people's lives adversely. I will restate my point: if an opinion is published in the form of a review, it is subject to scrutiny. Had the diner merely related her experience, I would not have taken issue with it. Ms. Grace went beyond that; she made generalized conclusions based on one experience.

Despite being new here, I still cannot help but ask myself whether Mr. Hagedorn understands just how petty and unprofessional such a post makes him appear.

I am sorry you think that; however, I think it is serious business to advise people not to buy food at a restaurant and that such a recommendation should not be made lightly.

[Barbara]

There are a couple of problems here, which I don't think Mr. Hagedorn quite understands: 1) A couple of our favorite people (OK, OK--the Dreamy Brown Brothers) have signed on to this venture, so a large percentage of the DR.com community hopes, hopes, hopes this all goes well. However, this has gotten off on a difficult footing by losing its original chef from the git-go; 2) Agragia seems to be hitting the ceiling in price point and therein lies the really big problem--if you aren't ready to open, don't charge those kind of prices; and, 3) Chica Grace, just like all the rest of us, isn't eating on an expense account, like Seitsema, Kliman, and the rest of the PAID food critics. If we are going to have to spend our very own hard-earned money, it has damn have to be worth it.

She has taken a one for team at the present time and I, for one, appreciate her comments. Should she have kept her mouth shut until she had eaten many, many expensive meals? I DON'T THINK SO.

The pros are going to give this place a lot of time and a lot of slack, as they should. However, a heads-up for the rest of us is entirely called for and welcomed.

[Heather]

Paying for flawed meals in new restaurants is an investment for which diners should be willing to incur initial losses. It amounts to a leap of faith, a nurturing process of tolerance and patience similar to that which parents undergo while newborn children are learning how to walk.

Yeah, that was a little over the top, but so was this:

I hope that when the chef shows up - sometime later this month, that I can post something different. But for now, just go for the drinks and the view.

Mr Hagedorn had a very good point - casual dismissals such as this can affect people's livelihoods, and in the case of a brand new restaurant without it's chef, that's not fair - especially when based on one meal.

[DHagedorn]

An overly critical response to an overly critical post. Quelle surprise.

"Sub-par," "pre-prepared," "undercooked," "tasteless," "heat-lamp broiled," "ridiculous," and "overpriced" are serious accusations.

[ScotteeM]

"Sub-par," "pre-prepared," "undercooked," "tasteless," "heat-lamp broiled," "ridiculous," and "overpriced" are serious accusations.

I don't think any of us disagrees with you on this point. It wasn't your message, but the delivery of it that caused some of us to take umbrage.

[DHagedorn]

Yeah, that was a little over the top, but so was this:Mr Hagedorn had a very good point - casual dismissals such as this can affect people's livelihoods, and in the case of a brand new restaurant without it's chef, that's not fair - especially when based on one meal.

Thank-you, Heather. When the server told Ms. Grace that the new chef had not yet arrived, he/she was explaining that the restaurant was in a state of transition. I thought that was an honest way to explain why things may not be perfect there.

[Banco]

Well David, while I might have agreed with some of what you said, I think that it is apparent that you sir are an ass. There are much better ways of countering what she wrote in her post than to attack the whole idea of people sharing their opinions concerning restaurants on this site or other like it.

And there are much better ways of countering what Mr. Hagedorn wrote than by calling him an ass.

For my part, I found Mr. Hagedorn's comments on the "review" well taken. But I do take issue with his notions that 1) people should subsidize a restaurant's mediocre opening at full price in the hope of better returns down the road, and 2) that people should not share their dining experiences on the Internet--even if such opinions go so far as to tell people to stay away from a place.

It may be some consolation to Mr. Hagedorn that the comments on this site--especially when they are as slipshod as the one in question--are probably not nearly as widely read or influential as many might assume (no offense Don).

Perhaps we should all just enjoy some Geoduck a la Roque?

[DHagedorn]

There are a couple of problems here, which I don't think Mr. Hagedorn quite understands: 1) A couple of our favorite people (OK, OK--the Dreamy Brown Brothers) have signed on to this venture, so a large percentage of the DR.com community hopes, hopes, hopes this all goes well. However, this has gotten off on a difficult footing by losing its original chef from the git-go; 2) Agragia seems to be hitting the ceiling in price point and therein lies the really big problem--if you aren't ready to open, don't charge those kind of prices; and, 3) Chica Grace, just like all the rest of us, isn't eating on an expense account, like Seitsema, Kliman, and the rest of the PAID food critics. If we are going to have to spend our very own hard-earned money, it has damn have to be worth it.

She has taken a one for team at the present time and I, for one, appreciate her comments. Should she have kept her mouth shut until she had eaten many, many expensive meals? I DON'T THINK SO.

The pros are going to give this place a lot of time and a lot of slack, as they should. However, a heads-up for the rest of us is entirely called for and welcomed.

I think I understand those things. Again, I did NOT suggest that anyone keep his/her mouth shut. I took exception to drawing conclusions too easily and to advising the public notto eat the food at Agraria.

Everyone, especially their owners, wishes restaurants will function perfectly the day they open, but expecting them to do so is naïve. More often than not, restaurants open before they are ready because they have to; they have simply run out of money. They cannot afford to exacerbate the problem by selling their food at a loss; complaints about food should be handled on a case-by-case basis and discounts offered when the management deems it appropriate. After all, restaurateurs are not out to show the public a bad time. They understand that they are completely dependent on the public’s good will.

Unlike any other business, restaurants are subject to a series of mitigating circumstances over which restaurateurs often have little, if any, control. No matter how scrupulously a restaurateur prepares a business plan and timeline, it can be almost invariably guaranteed that he will find himself out of time and money and forced to open before he is ready. No business person sets out to be or thinks he will wind up being undercapitalized; yet, more often than not all of his grand plans for weeks of menu testing, “mock” services, and staff training or months of pre-opening marketing and publicity campaigns generated by flashy publicists go out the window. He may discover while the restaurant is being built that the old iron pipes of the albatross he bought need to be replaced, that the walls he has torn down were filled with asbestos or that the hood system in the kitchen is by code two inches too short to cover all the state-of-the-art equipment he has had to start paying for three weeks ago.

It is not unusual for a restaurateur to have to start paying rent months before the restaurant has opened or to pay the staff he has hired long before he is able to open for fear that he might lose them. It is therefore entirely conceivable that a restaurant opens with a kitchen whose gas has been hooked up only the day before and whose staff has never actually used the $30,000 computer system about which nothing is known for sure except that it will crash three hours into the opening night. The restaurateur often has no choice but to open anyway and start a cash flow pronto or never open his doors at all.

Of course, the dining public does not care about these problems nor should they have to. But if people want restaurants to succeed, they should be willing to make concessions in the early days, including paying full price for their meals. I do NOT mean to say they should pay for something that is unacceptable; I merely suggest that the expected standard in the first months of a restaurant’s existence should not be perfection.

[Waitman]

Thank-you, Heather. When the server told Ms. Grace that the new chef had not yet arrived, he/she was explaining that the restaurant was in a state of transition. I thought that was an honest way to explain why things may not be perfect there.

I realize that one pays full price for the seats even when the understudy has taken Ms.Minelli's place for this performance. Nonetheless, a restaurant which charges premium prices while explaining that their kitchen is remains unready for prime time should expect a little blowback.

[DHagedorn]

I don't think any of us disagrees with you on this point. It wasn't your message, but the delivery of it that caused some of us to take umbrage.

Perhaps I did reply too severely, Scottee, but I feel strongly about the subject.

I realize that one pays full price for the seats even when the understudy has taken Ms.Minelli's place for this performance. Nonetheless, a restaurant which charges premium prices while explaining that their kitchen is remains unready for prime time should expect a little blowback.

Restaurateurs expect blowback at all times and blowbackers get blowback sometimes.

[Jacques Gastreaux]

I think Sietsema would say "the place is not yet ready for a full review." But, they are charging full price...

[Lydia R]

And so the public continues to say whatever it wishes without any accountability; they do not have to answer to pesky editors and fact-checkers as real journalists do.

I still remember your August 2005 parting note in the Washington Post. I realize the dining public hurt you and I'm sorry your wounds haven't completely healed. I appreciate you standing up for restaurant owners - they are a brave crew.

On a positive note, I took advantage of Derek's invitation to take the World Cup vino challenge on Sunday afternoon. The Alsace white was appley and "heads" above the citrus-y French offering (sure some would've voted the other way). Polished off a steak sandwich/frites and thought I was much better off at Agraria's bar than any of the other Washington Harbor venues.

I got to page through the current wine offerings (e.g., Rioja Blanco) and am looking forward to a few low-key bar meals before they settle in with their new team. No high stakes meals, just enjoying the setting and the initial key elements in place.

[DHagedorn]

I still remember your August 2005 parting note in the Washington Post. I realize the dining public hurt you and I'm sorry your wounds haven't completely healed. I appreciate you standing up for restaurant owners - they are a brave crew.

On a positive note, I took advantage of Derek's invitation to take the World Cup vino challenge on Sunday afternoon. The Alsace white was appley and "heads" above the citrus-y French offering (sure some would've voted the other way). Polished off a steak sandwich/frites and thought I was much better off at Agraria's bar than any of the other Washington Harbor venues.

I got to page through the current wine offerings (e.g., Rioja Blanco) and am looking forward a few low-key bar meals before they settle in with their new team. No high stakes meals, just enjoying the setting and the initial key elements in place.

Thanks for your appreciation. There were no wounds to heal; I had a marvelous time while I was in the restaurant business.

[B.A.R.]

I believe the ferocity of Chef Hagedorn's comments gave unnecessary gravitas to the "review" by Chica Grace.

I read her account and was hardly surprised that someone had a sub-par meal at this new restaurant. (Because it is new, they lost their opening Chef, etc. etc.)

Perhaps Chica Grace, in trying to explain her "review" went into too much explanation as to why she didn't like a particular dish. Many professionals read this board and can discriminate between insightful criticism and someone's attempted description of a bad meal.

Chica ate the meal, paid for the meal, and did not like the meal. I respect her comments, although I may disagree with her assessment. Is that so bad?

[Barbara]

Mr Hagedorn: I won't quote your latest post in its entirety, since that would be redundant; Mr. Rockwell hates redundancy ALMOST as much as he hates triple-spacing (which I don't understand, but nevermind).

There has been more than one instance when a new place opened up and the owners/chefs/managers paid attention to some of the criticism of the folks on this board and made appropriate changes, and (at least) PRETENDED to appreciate the suggestions. Not that I'm suggesting that any of us are the be-all and end-all of food expertise. However, we all have opinions on each others' opinions and take THAT into consideration. I think you need to take a deep breath and look at the Chica Grace's original posting with the idea that she didn't set out to DIS the restaurant. She just wanted to give us all a heads-up. I notice you didn't critique Todd Thrasher's recommendation that we all should just go and enjoy, while he didn't mention a single thing about the food except that we should just go and enjoy. None of us need to be told, at this point, about the amazing things Mr. Thrasher can do with a cocktail, nor about the quality of the restaurant in which HE works.

Also, we know about the "novelty" of this restaurant. That, added to the difficulty of the space, makes this something that all (OK, MOST) of us hope will succeed. A co-op of farmers in North Dakota? What a swell idea.

It all comes down to the execution, doesn't it?

[jrichstar]

Here's what it comes down to: this is a board where anyone, no matter who they are, where they are from and how much they know about food, can and should be able to express their opinions freely. To chide Chica on her food-related credentials and to nitpick every detail of her post does a great disservice to what dr.com is all about.

[hillvalley]

Is there a way to alert Rocks about the brouhaha that is about to erupt?

Perhaps a spotlight in the shape of a martini glass or something?

He is enjoying an evening somewhere-not quite aware of what awaits him.

Let's all do him a favor, make his life a little easier, and end this conversation. If Rocks was here he would probably lock the thread. Since I can't do that I am going to ask everyone to imagine it is locked and move on. Thanks.

[cjsadler]

The proliferation of the internet has been particularly troublesome for restaurateurs.

I probably wouldn't like it one bit either if someone was attacking my livelihood. That said, your statement that I've quoted above needs some 'fact-checking'. Which restaurants do you feel were unfairly affected by the internet? Can you provide some examples? The people who actually care enough about restaurants to read dr.com, egullet and various blogs (a very small percentage of the public, I'd bet) can probably weigh the negative and positive comments about a restaurant better than you think. And rather than it being troublesome, restaurants might actually use 'negative' comments as constructive criticism. Dean Gold (of Dino, 'deangold' here), to his eternal credit, actually listened to some of the feedback here on dr.com (including, I believe, changing the supplier of his chicken due to comments here) rather than just trying to discount the opinions of our members.

[DHagedorn]

Here's what it comes down to: this is a board where anyone, no matter who they are, where they are from and how much they know about food, can and should be able to express their opinions freely. To chide Chica on her food-related credentials and to nitpick every detail of her post does a great disservice to what dr.com is all about.

Except, apparently, for me.

[CrescentFresh]

He is enjoying an evening somewhere-not quite aware of what awaits him.

Let's all do him a favor, make his life a little easier, and end this conversation. If Rocks was here he would probably lock the thread. Since I can't do that I am going to ask everyone to imagine it is locked and move on. Thanks.

Hey everybody! Hillvalley's now a leviathan!

[Barbara]

He is enjoying an evening somewhere-not quite aware of what awaits him.

Well, that'll teach him.

[Sthitch]

Except, apparently, for me.

You really are not helping yourself, especially with all of the triple spacing. I mean, Jacques is going to find you and hit you with that big assed fish soon.

I think that it has been made clear that is was your delivery that many people take issue with. I did not read the original post that you were replying to for a number of reasons. First of all it was posted as its own thread separate from a thread for Agreria that was near the top of the forum (its not like it was some obscure place like Ray's the Steaks that no ever writes about), and her subtitle I thought was quite unfair for a new restaurant. When I read her review quoted in your post, I did come away with some negative feelings about how she delivered them, however, your response that I quoted I thought was far more over-the-top in calling into question the existence of sites like DR.com and others. I see your point about how the original poster presented them as an authority on how food should be prepared, and getting almost everything wrong, as many others have stated, it was not what you wrote, but how you wrote it.

You can express your opinions freely, just please do not make it seems like others who pay their hard earned money, and dedicate their time to a meal do not have the right to complain when it does not meet their expectations.

Oh, and when you figure out how to not triple space, I will retract my “ass” comment.

[Jacques Gastreaux]

DHagedorn @ Jul 10 2006, 07:35 PM) The proliferation of the internet has been particularly troublesome for restaurateurs.

I'll bet restauranteuers find the regular print media troublesome as well. It's probaly a worse nightmare for them than the Internet. Well, too bad. There are only two ways to prevent this: (1) outlaw restaurants or (2) repeal the 1st amendment.

[Chica Grace]

Years ago, writer Dorothy Parker recognized the futility of premature judgments. She responded to a lover apologizing for a hastily concluded performance with the assurance, “Don’t worry; I don’t review rehearsals.”

Ms. Grace, in her comments about Agraria, has reviewed a rehearsal.

This "review" does a tremendous disservice to a restaurant that opened barely a month ago amidst a flurry of well-publicized difficulties. Ms. Grace is certainly entitled to her opinions, but what qualifies her to transform those opinions into facts? After sampling only four dishes, Ms. Grace feels that she has collected sufficient evidence to support the conclusion that the public should not order food at Agraria. In their nascent days, restaurants have enough problems as it is without having someone pass careless public judgments that directly affect their fiscal health and the livelihoods their employees.

The proliferation of the internet has been particularly troublesome for restaurateurs. On foodie blogs and websites, the ability to eat and type is the only qualification necessary to become a Restaurant Critic. Opinions and errors masquerading in the form of reviews regularly pass for factual information which readers then mistake for truth. Online diner reviews have a veneer of authority that casual cocktail party stories about restaurant experiences do not, and restaurateurs are left holding the bag. They have no recourse; even if they had the time to respond to these promulgations, doing so would only open them to more criticism and/or to accusations of excuse-making. And so the public continues to say whatever it wishes without any accountability; they do not have to answer to pesky editors and fact-checkers as real journalists do.

The only hope that restaurant owners have is that someone might come along who calls a diner's comments into question. People who are not journalists but play them online open themselves to scrutiny and must expect to take what they dish out. It is with this in mind that I would like to review Ms. Grace’s comments:

The author does not list any credentials which would suggest that she is an authority on restaurants. The quality of the writing does not instill confidence. Leaving matters of grammar, syntax, and punctuation aside, I will only say that I have learned from experience that a writer’s work improves greatly when the red pencil is taken up in place of the poisoned pen.

“The bar area and dining room are gorgeous.” Why? What do they look like?

“(T)he homemade drinks at Restaurant Eve in Old Town Alexandria surpass Agraria's attempts at uniqueness - that is in terms of taste.” How? Why? How could Ms. Grace make such a sweeping statement after having sampled, at most, two drinks?

“The Caesar's salad was pre-prepared in a refrigerator - so it was not freshly-made. ( you can tell when the plate is served super cold and "sweating" from the condensation).” I do not concur with Ms. Grace’s deductions. The fact that a salad is cold does mean that it was prepared ahead of time. Does Ms. Grace think that restaurants cut and wash lettuce for individual salads to order? Restaurants store salad plates in refrigerators. It is no mystery of science that once a cold plate meets warm air, condensation occurs.

“The dressing was sub-par, at best.” Why? What did it taste like? What makes a dressing “par?”

“The scallops had not been cooked correctly as there was a crusty brown rim on each of them - from sitting underneath a heating window too long.” This is simply incorrect. The brown rim on the scallops indicates that they have been seared. If the dish had been under a heat-lamp long enough for the scallops to “broil,” the scallops would not have browned in a ring.

“And then the sauces served with the scallops - too many of them and too many flavors. There was caviar sprinkled on top of the scallops, and then the sauce base was creme fraiche and some type of pesto. Quite frankly, with all these sauces, there was still very little taste to the entire dish.” Ms. Grace complains of too many flavors and then contradicts herself by saying there was little taste to the dish. It is difficult to believe that caviar and pesto “didn’t taste like anything.”

“And by the way - the scallop dish alone costs $29. Ridiculous considering it doesn't taste like anything AND the scallops were not cooked correctly.” Price is not a function of flavor or degree of doneness. How many scallops were there in the dish? How large were they? What kind of scallops were they? $29 is certainly not out of line for a sea scallop entrée these days, considering that the food cost for the scallops alone could easily be in the $6 range.

“The watercress salad started off ok - if Agraria would just stick to one type of citrus. Instead, they insert BOTH mandarin orange, as well as sliced of lime. it also included shaved fennel. The overall dressing did not complement the watercress. It doesn't blend together and it sets the palate to different tastes without enjoying one or the other.” Since when do orange and lime make a poor combination? Why did the dressing not complement the salad in her opinion? The combination of watercress, orange, lime, and fennel makes perfect sense to me intellectually and there is no compelling evidence here that would suggest otherwise.

“Then the Tagiatelle was undercooked. Several of the pasta noodles were not Al dente.” Does Ms. Grace mean to say that some of the noodles were cooked more than others? That would be a dubious achievement.

“And from my perspective - there is no need to top off a pesto dish with pine nuts, since pesto sauce already has pine nuts in it.” And from my perspective, as a chef, topping a pesto dish with pine nuts is perfectly acceptable; it’s called a garnish.

“We did not have dessert.” In other words, Ms. Grace has not yet researched her subject sufficiently.

“And for two drinks, two starters, and two mains, we paid $101. Overpriced .” I do not know where Ms. Grace has been eating recently, but this sounds like the going rate to me for a restaurant of Agraria’s echelon.

“In General - This restaurant has kinks that need to be worked. Most importantly, they need a menu and food that tastes like something. I hope that when the chef shows up - sometime later this month, that I can post something different. But for now, just go for the drinks and the view.” Of course the restaurant has kinks to work out; it just opened. To say they need food that tastes like something is simply of no value. It is not a criticism; it is an empty statement. Without ever having been to Agraria, I can say with complete confidence that although the food is not to Ms. Grace’s liking, it tastes like something.

Yes, Agraria is open and charging full prices, but that does not mean the public should reject its food based on someone’s questionable opinions. Paying for flawed meals in new restaurants is an investment for which diners should be willing to incur initial losses. It amounts to a leap of faith, a nurturing process of tolerance and patience similar to that which parents undergo while newborn children are learning how to walk.

David Hagedorn

David: I don't know who you are , or what role you play in the restaurant business, or specifically, the restaurant Agraria. I, in no way meant to criticize the staff, since everyone in a restaurant tries very hard to please customers .

And sometimes customers will not have a good experience. That is a fact. But I, in no way am "Dissing" Agraria, nor am I "dissing the experience" I am merely stating my point of view, and talking about my dining experience on Saturday night. The last time I checked, is still protected under my 1st ammendment rights. Its called freedom of speech.

And yes, you are correct - I am not in the restaurant business, and I am not a restaurant critic, instead I am the consumer. I'm the person that has the potential to be a "regular" and recommend the restaurant to everyone I know. I'm the person who ends up going out to her favorite restaurant for Thanksgiving, because why should I cook? I'm the person who will defend a restaurant to death in light of misgivings , errors, bad timing, bad service, if I like the people, and if the food is good. I'm the person who spends a significant portion of her hard-earned money on eating out in DC, and the surroundings Metro area.

I'm just sharing my point of view.

What I find comical about your response is that even when I gave Agraria kudos, you found it necessary to dissect those sentences into something negative. I stand by my point of view, which, in case you forget - its JUST a point of view. I will continue to post, because this website is to share experiences and ideas.

Thank you

[jrichstar]

Except, apparently, for me.

There's a big difference between opining on a food/restaurant and expressing an opinion of an opinion.

[Jacques Gastreaux]

There's a big difference between opining on a food/restaurant and expressing an opinion of an opinion.

In fact, it is the possiblity of commentary like this that keeps boards like dr.com honest. People are less likely to post unsubstantiated crap about restuarants if they know they will be called on the carpet for it. I don't know how many times I've seen people respond to a post with something to the effect "can you be more specific." I think Chica's post contained plenty of specifics to pass this test.

[ScotteeM]

What?! Who kidnapped Don Rockwell??

Apparently, he dined on some less than fresh geoduck, and is hallucinating. It happens. It's not pretty. But there you are. He'll recover and be back to normal shortly.

[crackers]

There is a perfectly good thread here on dr.com called "Criticizing Restaurants, and Criticizing the Critics" where this mud wrestling match belongs. Hopefully y'all will migrate this friendly little chat over there, which IMO would be more appropriate than duking it out on Agraria's front porch.

[derekmbrown]

I spent tonight at Rasika in the very capable hands of sommelier Sebastian Zuntant. Sebatian is, rightfully, up for awards from both StarChefs and Wine & Spirits magazine. I realize now that with all of Agraria's troubles (losing a chef, etc.), I'm still glad I don't have to pair wine with Indian food. Way to go Sebbe.

At Agraria, we keep plugging away and, hopefully, will be the subject of many glowing reviews to come. In the meantime, I'm humbled by the sincere and honest opinions that people are putting forth, and the passionate defense of our restaurant by those who know how difficult our difficulties really are. We will do our best to make all the ink worth it.

Sincerely,

Derek

[Waitman]

Threat? I took exception to a review I found irresponsible and supported my argument. This makes me a triple-spacing ass with an ax to grind. I stand behind what I say and sign it with my name. My full name.

When you quote another post, unless you put your comments directly beneath or even next to the /quote command at the end of the quote, the program triple spaces. Why this is, I do not know. Why it makes Rocks crazy, I do not know. As to why it became a totem of your...whatever, bad attitude...in this thread, I am even more in the dark. I think typos, triple spacings and -- especially among the non-professionals -- certain syntax errors and descriptive vagueness should be inadmissable as evidence of mal-intent or critical incompetence.

Welcome to Rox, Chef/Writer/Shrimp Hagedorn. An auspicious debut, indeed. Looking forward to seeing more of you here.

[giant shrimp]

two points before they shut this thing down:

first, i don't know what fields the anchovies, caviar, scallops, mandarin orange, tagliatelle, etc. are coming from, but this sure doesn't say north dakota to me. has this restaurant already lost its identity?

and second, mr. hagedorn, please bring back trumpets, you ass.

[jparrott]

Agraria isn't supposed to get everything from North Dakota--the mission is to source as much as possible from small farms as possible. Of course, that will kick in more completely as soon as Agraria settles on a cuisine (i.e. when Moore is ready to rock). In other words, they'll be serving more than turnips in December. Though I do like turnips. Ricky, Brian, Derek, can we have turnips in December?

[Hannah]

Given that North Dakota's the country's number one producer of durum wheat, tagliatelle fits right in with their mission - in fact, I'd be surprised if there weren't a fairly significant amount of pasta/polenta on the eventual menu.

[Jacques Gastreaux]

They also grow a lot of beets in ND (albeit sugar beets).

[Jlock]

CNN Breaking News -- Flock of Giant Geoducks takes over DR.com! Triple-spacing and touchy posting to surely follow!

Watch CNN or log on to http://CNN.com and watch FREE video, plus live, commercial-free video with CNN Pipeline. Only one news network has been the most trusted for nearly two decades: CNN - Still the most trusted name in news.

Agraria is new (it's new even to its own staff owing to the chef change so early in the process). I have enjoyed the burger and many of the innovative beverages there thus far. I hope that they can get it together and make a real restaurant out of the place.

I wish that there hadn't been as much "press" and promotion before Agraria opened - I think overcoming all of the hype with good food is what they needed right out of the chute - and certainly what they need now more than ever!

I read any and all reviews (professional and non-professional) with a grain of salt (sometimes sea salt). I enjoy the reviews posted here because they ARE people's personal opinions. Can't we all just be geoducks friends?

[rau69]

two points before they shut this thing down:

first, i don't know what fields the anchovies, caviar, scallops, mandarin orange, tagliatelle, etc. are coming from, but this sure doesn't say north dakota to me. has this restaurant already lost its identity?

Just to clarify, though the restaurant is majority owned by the North Dakota Farmers Union, it has always been our mission to source from and promote family farmers and small producers from all over the country.

__________________________

Robert Underwood

Pastry Chef

Agraria Restaurat

[CrescentFresh]

Just to clarify, though the restaurant is majority owned by the North Dakota Farmers Union, it has always been our mission to source from and promote family farmers and small producers from all over the country.

__________________________

Robert Underwood

Pastry Chef

Agraria Restaurat

Robert, Welcome to DR. Throughout the ups and downs of the past weeks at Agraria I have found the desserts and sweets to be superb. You're doing great work.

[Walrus]

Ditto! Your desserts were definitely a highlight of our first visit!

Robert, Welcome to DR. Throughout the ups and downs of the past weeks at Agraria I have found the desserts and sweets to be superb. You're doing great work.

[Gillian Clark]

At Agraria, we keep plugging away and, hopefully, will be the subject of many glowing reviews to come. In the meantime, I'm humbled by the sincere and honest opinions that people are putting forth, and the passionate defense of our restaurant by those who know how difficult our difficulties really are. We will do our best to make all the ink worth it.

Sincerely,

Derek

Derek,

I feel your pain. Even more since I saw that ad that said that for every $100 we ring in at our restaurant cash register...we get to keep only $5. Restaurants are works in progress. Always. Even after you've been open for years. We're always trying to get better. It is just hard to take all of the kicks in the teeth when you're working like a dog. It is one of the hardest working industries around. And for that hard work...labor hours still mean low profits. We're not doing this for NBA-like salaries. We love it for some strange reason. So sometimes the criticism rubs the wrong way. I think Hagedorn was suggesting that educated comments are taken more seriously. The condensation on the plate is a sign that the plate was cold...as most of us do. I had to read a post about Colorado Kitchen where the diner had never had HOT foie gras before. This diner had only had foie gras mousse. Perhaps commenting on my foie gras was not appropriate for this person since their experience was limited. I think that is fair don't you? Also, we've all been new line cooks and struggled...yes even Hagedorn...but the chef had to put us on the line so that we could learn and get better. And believe me we got better. I'm sure Susan Lindeborg has plenty of gray hairs from my first nights at the grill.

[qwertyy]

I think what bugs me about the reaction to Ms. Grace's posting is that she provided plenty of information on which the discerning reader could make his or her own conclusions. A brown ring on the scallops? I think that means they're properly cooked, so I disregard that criticism. Pine nuts on pesto? I think that's a terrific taste and textural addition, so I disregard that criticism. Likewise, someone who criticizes foie just because it's served hot is really not someone I'm going to run to for food advice.

Similarly, a restaurateur who publicly, derisively dismisses someone's opinions is not someone I'm going to run to share a meal with either.

Just my opinion.

Edited to add: I just read an interesting article in the New York Times on a parallel issue--Internet TV critics.

TV Is Now Interactive, Minus Images, on the Web

By MARIA ASPAN

Published: July 8, 2006

Many "Rescue Me" viewers weren't happy, and they weren't being quiet about it.

The June 20 episode of the series, on FX, concluded with a violent sex scene between the main character, played by Denis Leary, and his estranged wife. Bloggers and other online fans protested, saying that the scene depicted — and appeared to endorse — rape.

So the executive producer of "Rescue Me," Peter Tolan, who had written the episode with Mr. Leary, resorted to an increasingly popular site for television writers who want to defend their editorial choices. Mr. Tolan went to the Internet.

In a June 21 posting on the discussion boards of the Web site Televisionwithoutpity.com Mr. Tolan tried to appease "Rescue Me" fans. "Welcome to writing a television drama," he wrote at the end of his lengthy first message. "We're trying to do something different," he explained. "Sometimes we succeed, sometimes we don't."

His readers might have retorted, "Welcome to the Internet." ...

According to John Solberg, a spokesman for FX, Mr. Tolan now regrets trying to explain himself on Television Without Pity. Rather than defusing the controversy over the episode, his response "stirred it up more," Mr. Solberg said.

"If he had to do it again," Mr. Solberg continued, "he wouldn't do it."