Upgrade To Invision Version 3.2.x - Snarl at me here! :-)

[monavano]

"Single-Space" is the new "Triple-Space" ... sigh.

The editor is now WYSIWYG (What You See Is What You Get), so unless you literally put a blank line in (rather than just adding a carriage return), the responses will be single-spaced. Personally, I prefer the look of a double-spaced reply, but I'll be damned if I'm going to go back and sift through 200,000 posts!

Like this?

[DonRocks]

Like this?

Yeah!

[goldenticket]

I've only been on for a few minutes but what I have noticed (I'm using IE 8) is that when I click on "Next Unread Topic" it goes to the first unread topic in a forum instead of the next one chronologically (I usually go to the oldest unread thread in a forum and work my way up). I also noticed there used to be a button after the last post in a thread for "Previous Topic" (or something like that) that no longer is there.

I noticed this, too. There used to be buttons for 'next topic' and 'previous topic' at the bottom of a topic thread.

(This is the issue I mentioned to you, Don.)

[DonRocks]

I just wanted to say - I'm actually digging the new version. It's feeling more intuitive towards how I use the site.

(As for the description lines - what's the argument against perhaps migrating them to make the title of the thread longer?)

I don't think the total space of the title line is enough to concatenate the old descriptions against the old titles. So I'm just going to learn to work with one-line titles (refer to the Bouley thread in the NYC forum which I just split off this morning).

Titles here are very fluid - I change them whenever a chef leaves, for example, or if something major happens to the restaurant. The problem is that when I edit the title of an existing thread, I cannot get at the description. But there's a workaround to this, as Jason told me yesterday - any post with tags on it won't have the description shown, so ... any title that I edit for an existing thread, I'm going to add tags (all new threads will have tags also - I don't see anything wrong with being to click on "Foggy Bottom," for example, and getting a list of restaurants in Foggy Bottom. I could also fudge the living crap out of the tags and make them be quasi-descriptions, i.e., about 50 characters long. The drawbacks with that are: 1) the paper clip will show up next to the tag, and 2) the search function will continue to be worthless. I think tags aren't a bad way to go - I know that I've tried to make this website "read" like a newspaper in the past, with headlines and sub-headlines, but I think "headlines + clickable-searchable tags" are going to be more useful for people, especially if I continue to be diligent with making informative, entertaining headlines. Despite the artsy-fartsy nature of what I've tried to do, this whole website is essentially a hierarchical database (i.e., having one-to-many relationships) whether people know it or not. Tags will turn it into more of a relational model (i.e., having many-to-many relationships) which is more powerful. I understand most people won't know what the flying flip I'm talking about here, but hey, I have a M.S. in Computer Science and why not show off a bit ... click for one of the all-time great beer commercials.

[Heather]

Is there a mobile version? I'm on Android and it basically pulls up the full site, which is really difficult to use on a phone. Before the upgrade, there was a really nice mobile site.

"Use Mobile Version" or somesuch was in very tiny print at the bottom of the webpage. Double tap on your screen to enlarge the page, scroll down to the bottom, & you should see it.

[DonRocks]

I'm using the mobile version on my iPhone right now. While looking at a list of threads on a forum main page, if you click the right arrowhead on the far right side of any given thread title, it will take you to the last post in that thread.

[Bob Loblaw]

"Use Mobile Version" or somesuch was in very tiny print at the bottom of the webpage. Double tap on your screen to enlarge the page, scroll down to the bottom, & you should see it.

Thanks! Didn't think to look for that since it used to automatically redirect to the mobile version.

[Heather]

I'm using the mobile version on my iPhone right now. While looking at a list of threads on a forum main page, if you click the right arrowhead on the far right side of any given thread title, it will take you to the last post in that thread.

Android phone here. When I access the threads via "view new content" instead of the individual forums, the arrow takes me to the first post of the thread. When I go to the individual forums and try it, it brings me to the last post in the thread. Too bad, because I use "view new content" all the time.

[Rovers2000]

When I'm not infront of a computer, I generally use the IPB app on my iPhone (I dislike most mobile sites). It seems to have no bugs with the upgrade, as an FYI.

[Heather]

When I'm not infront of a computer, I generally use the IPB app on my iPhone (I dislike most mobile sites). It seems to have no bugs with the upgrade, as an FYI.

I checked the market, and there doesn't seem to be an Android version of the app.

[DonRocks]

Android phone here. When I access the threads via "view new content" instead of the individual forums, the arrow takes me to the first post of the thread. When I go to the individual forums and try it, it brings me to the last post in the thread. Too bad, because I use "view new content" all the time.

Try the star on the left instead of the arrow on the right - that worked for me (I think).

[Heather]

Try the star on the left instead of the arrow on the right - that worked for me (I think).

That worked for me, too. Thanks, Don.

Oh, and I really like the new look. Much more readable. And the autosave feature is cool.

[squidsdc]

I don't think the total space of the title line is enough to concatenate the old descriptions against the old titles. So I'm just going to learn to work with one-line titles (refer to the Bouley thread in the NYC forum which I just split off this morning).

So back to the items not appearing in "Show New Content" why doesn't the new thread you split off in the NYC forum show up as New Content?

[DonRocks]

This is an important decision, perhaps important enough to make it into its own topic.

Do we want to use tags, or "fudge" tags?

Go to the the New York City forum and take a look at a new thread (as of this morning), the Bouley thread. I have four tags in there, three of them are what it might normally look like; the fourth is something that I'd use if I decided to stay with our current system of "description" or "sub-title." Of course though the fourth is a joke, it is possible to make 50-75 character tags that are quasi-descriptions, and the system can be much like it was before.

Personally, I think "real" tags are better than trying to extend the description system (which we could always do on a thread-by-thread basis if it was warranted). But I'm interested in how others here think. So, in one case, we'd have a list of tags such as this:

Tribeca, French, Fine Dining

And if the user clicks on "French," for example, she'd get the list of all French restaurants (website-wide, or just within the forum?). This has very real use, and considerable value

In the other case, we'd have a tag that says something like:

Chef David Bouley's flagship restaurant in Tribeca

Essentially, one single, big, long tag that's of absolutely no use for searching, but does allow me to use subtitles like I was doing before.

Again, I like the tags better for maximum flexibility and power, without losing the English-like headlines because I'll redouble my efforts to get all the important info in the title.

What does everyone think? This is an extremely important decision regarding the future of the website, so everyone please be more aggressive than you normally would be in chiming in, even if it's just to say, "I don't really care which you use." I'm searching for as many different opinions as possible, because it affects the entire fabric of the website going forward.

My vote goes to using real tags, for whatever that's worth (and, by definition, keeping the old description field for the pre-existing threads because it would be thousands of hours of work to change them). The co-mingling of old and new doesn't bother me at all.

Well, what do you all think?

[DanielK]

Go with the tags. If I were designing the website, I'd allow both, because the subtitles are a nice touch and add to the topic. But in an either/or scenario, it's tags all the way.

Might even be able to lose, or automatically generate, the index pages, if we do the tags right. If every restaurant thread gets tagged with location, cuisine, rating...

[DonRocks]

Might even be able to lose, or automatically generate, the index pages, if we do the tags right. If every restaurant thread gets tagged with location, cuisine, rating...

Buddy, that's the best dining guide ever written for the Washington, DC area, with nary a challenger in view.

We ain't losin' diddly shit in terms of the dining guide. And no, we're not di$tributing it among$t the individual thread$.

For New York City, Chicago, San Francisco, and everything else? We can talk about it.

(Baltimore, get your shit together, or I'm going to turn you into a subforum of DC. You, the city, have been a pain in my ass, and I've worked for years trying to give you what I thought you deserved - which is your own culinary identity, and absolutely equal respect and billing to the Washington, DC area. I'm the only website ever to have tried this, as opposed to "lumping you in" with a larger region. Get it together, please, or bye bye.)

---

Using the District Common thread as an example (click here to see it in context), what does everyone think about having the phone number as a tag? When trying to get to the restaurant, and you're in a car, that may be the single most valuable bit of information, and it's only ten characters or so. Would people mind seeing it on every new tag line?

There are times for websites, and times for phone numbers, and when you're driving around, needing instant information about a restaurant, that's time for a phone number.

[Heather]

I can't see the tags when using the mobile version of this site.

That said, tags are the way to go, especially if they can be applied to the older content. Having that search tool for old threads would be great. It makes the site more like a source of info and less like "just" a message board.

[porcupine]

Yes yes yes to real tags. Incredibly useful. Please do tags.

[Escoffier]

I think I'll just use this for a while before I say anything. I do like the X on the right side of a users post which allows you to ignore their signature and that cute little blob to the right of the top which opens a pick list of topics. (the facebook-ization of every site continues rolling on however).

[DaRiv18]

Rocks, I think you have to ask yourself which audience are the tags really helping. I think your proposed tags are geared towards the newbie on the site, or to a out-of-towner who doesn't often visit a given market and wants a fast tour.

Maybe I don't have a handle how the tags work, but really they don't seem that useful to ME (they do seem useful). If I click on "fine dining" tag in Bouley, all I get back are things tagged Fine Dining. If I want to select multiple tags (which I'll always want to do), I have to go to the advanced search engine to do that. Without a comprehensive list (drop-down?) of tags to choose from, the system becomes sort of a secret language that you have to learn, which defeats the purpose of tags.

Then there's the question of who gets to generate tags, I imagine it would be moderators. If you want to create a consistent system, you probably just need to agree on a set of tags that are applied consistently and somewhat generically. It seems to me tags are less useful if everyone gets to create a tag like some sort of extemporaneous Twitter hash-line. Sure I would want to tag a cocktail place with "great ice", but someone else might want to tag their favorite sushi joint with "real wasabi" and then pretty soon it's the Wild Wild West.

That said, tags would improve your Dining Guide (IMO) by re-integrating your second-class citizens in Multiple Locations back into a defined neighborhood. You could tag, say Julia's Empanadas, with South Dupont Circle, Adams Morgan, etc.

I see I'm in rambling mode, so let me just close by saying I like the subtitles. They are personal, quirky, and descriptive. They are judgmental. If tags really just provide Location/Cuisine Type/Atmosphere/Cost Range, that is fine but I hope there is an easy way to select multiple tags simultaneously. Not sure what Invision's platform can provide in that regard.

[DonRocks]

If tags really just provide Location/Cuisine Type/Atmosphere/Cost Range, that is fine but I hope there is an easy way to select multiple tags simultaneously. Not sure what Invision's platform can provide in that regard.

I really appreciate all you said about the subtitles - I sure worked hard on them over the years! The tags will be just as much work, and yes, I'll need to do all the dining tags for consistency. I'm not willing to go back and undo the descriptions just because of the sheer amount of effort involved (venture capitalists, are you out there?), but we'll see how this looks going forward.

It would be nice to do an "AND" operation with multiple tags, as you say. I suspect if there isn't one in this version (and if there is, it's not obvious how to do it, but I'll ask Invision), there might be in future versions. That's a pretty common thing - getting a list, and then refining it further.

[DaRiv18]

The Dining Guide is the bomb! You can't translate italics and bold into tags (unless you make the tags "italics" and "bold" ), and the subtitles really work well with it.

I guess I should have announced my bias to tags when applied to subjects of an artistic nature. Just as Duke Ellington was "beyond category", I would feel funny tagging, say, Toki Underground by a single cuisine type ("pan-asian"? "Japanese with a Taiwain influance"? "ramen joint"? "speciality"?). Hard to tag without someone objecting to the designation, and hard to balance usefulness against completeness.

[SeanMike]

Well, you've seen my thoughts on usability when it comes to mobile devices - that for me is the big thing.

If I'm sitting at my desk (as I am now) using my computer, it's no big deal for me to use Google or the (shudder) Invision search engine to find what I need, or even just to browse through page after page in a section: "I know someone talked about that joint in the last week or so...". That's one level of usability in my mind, and that's where I'd rather see the descriptions (for the lulz, of course).

But, for me, the real question is "how much easier will it be for me to use from my Droid?" Because when I really want some info, I'm typically NOT at my computer. I don't think that far ahead, and with lugging around a Blackberry, Droid Charge, and Kindle Fire half the time I don't usually *need* a laptop as well. When I end up out in the boonies on the motorcycle, I just want to be able to look up what's good around me...

So that blathering having been written down (and probably slightly disjointed after taking a con call in the middle of it) I'll experiment with it more on my phone.

(OOOOoooo, a "new reply" message! Like Gmail! I really dig that! SERIOUSLY.)

[goldenticket]

I like the idea of tags; I'm not sure how much I'd use them. As DaRiv18 said above, location-specific tags could be extremely helpful.

Subtitles (and their cleverness) are also appreciated, but I don't see them once I'm in a thread, nor are they visible when viewing the site through Safari on my iPhone.

(I started to download the Invision app yesterday, but decided against it based on the small number of reviews, all of which were quite negative.)

[DonRocks]

How do you get OUT of the mobile version once you're in ?!

[Heather]

Tagging the threads will lead more people to this site through Google searches. Don, do you do your own SEO research?

[Escoffier]

Interesting tidbit. If you put your cursor over the star of an unread topic and push the shift key, you go to that topic (in Mac anyway).

[DanielK]

You can't translate italics and bold into tags

Sure you can, say using a 5 star system. bold = 5stars, italic = 4stars, and everything else gets 3,2,1,0.

[treznor]

To me, tags are a way of grouping threads together. To use your data modeling analogy Don, tags are the Associative Entity table for topics

Location based tags are nice, though replicate the dining guide to a large extent. You could include different location based tags though that the dining guide doesn't include. For my money, what the tags will really bring to the table is the ability to link different restaurants by cuisine. I've found myself a number of times wanting Chinese or Thai or whatever, but wanting something different from the places I've been to in the past. With properly done tags I could click on the 'Thai' tag and get a listing of all the Thai restaurants in the area. It would be great if I could then click on the 'McPherson area' tag to get the Thai restaurants in the McPherson area, but understand that might be getting into 'advanced mode' area. I know my favorite restaurants for most cuisines, but a number of times I'll go somewhere that I know I won't like as much as my favorite just to try a different restaurant.

Continuing that theme, of a tag bringing a group of topics together, I don't think a phone number as a tag makes sense. There's one and only one (just to bring it back to data modelling ) restaurant/topic with that phone number so you aren't grouping topics together with it. Really it's just about making it more visible. I guess that's worth considering, but if I want to call a place and don't know the phone number (like I actually know anyone's phone number?) I type the name into Google Maps and then click the call button... Here I'd have to find the thread, look at the phone number, REMEMBER the phone number, type it into my dialer, and then call. Leave the phone numbers to Google Maps

Love the subtitles, hate they can't be kept along with the tags. But the tags could really be quite awesome. What would be really nifty (maybe suggest to Invision?) is if all users could suggest tags for a topic and they get sent to a moderation queue. Then a select number of moderators could either accept or deny the changes. This is basically the way 4sq works for address, category, whatever changes (I'm one of those superusers, kinda interesting to see how it works).

[The Hersch]

This is probably just me being dense, but how do you specify display text when inserting a link? The old pop-up insert link box had a field for it, but the new one doesn't. Do you have to code your own html tags now to accomplish this? That wouldn't seem very much like progress.

[DonRocks]

This is probably just me being dense, but how do you specify display text when inserting a link? The old pop-up insert link box had a field for it, but the new one doesn't. Do you have to code your own html tags now to accomplish this? That wouldn't seem very much like progress.

Type the text in your reply, then highlight it, and only then do you click on the link doo-dah or whatever it is that Ken called it.

[The Hersch]

Oh, so, for example, I would just type "Catherine Sauvage sings", highlight it, and click on the link doo-dah and then paste in the url? Like this? Thanks!

[weezy]

I haven't been able to access the site during the day while I'm at work. I use IE at the office -- maybe I need to clear my cache & history. At any rate, I'm not able to access during the day and just checking to make sure the site hasn't been under construction during those hours (and looking at the time of posts, obviously not, so it's a problem at my end). In the immortal words of Rosanne Rosanadanna, "never mind."

[DonRocks]

I haven't been able to access the site during the day while I'm at work. I use IE at the office -- maybe I need to clear my cache & history. At any rate, I'm not able to access during the day and just checking to make sure the site hasn't been under construction during those hours (and looking at the time of posts, obviously not, so it's a problem at my end). In the immortal words of Rosanne Rosanadanna, "never mind."

You are okay with this issue, weezy? I can't tell.

[dcs]

I haven't been able to access the site during the day while I'm at work. I use IE at the office -- maybe I need to clear my cache & history. At any rate, I'm not able to access during the day and just checking to make sure the site hasn't been under construction during those hours (and looking at the time of posts, obviously not, so it's a problem at my end). In the immortal words of Rosanne Rosanadanna, "never mind."

That happened to me at first. Make sure your favorites link points to http://donrockwell.com/ and not to http://www.donrockwell.com/ (the old address). IE generates a "Internet Explorer cannot display the webpage" error when using the "www" version (which was the old address).

[JimRice]

That happened to me at first. Make sure your favorites link points to http://donrockwell.com/ and not to http://www.donrockwell.com/ (the old address). IE generates a "Internet Explorer cannot display the webpage" error when using the "www" version (which was the old address).

I was just about to report this same issue too. Happens at home on Firefox as well as at work on IE.

[porcupine]

How do you get OUT of the mobile version once you're in ?!

Scroll to the bottom and click on "full version".

[DonRocks]

Scroll to the bottom and click on "full version".

I don't see the option on my iPhone; only a button that says "English (USA)" which is a language selector. I like the look of this mobile version a lot, but sometimes as administrator, I need full-version access (I can't get to the last page of a forum, for example, using the mobile version, or at least it's not obvious how to).

[weezy]

You are okay with this issue, weezy? I can't tell.

Yes, I am. Cleared my cache and left off the "www" et voila, I'm in at work.

[porcupine]

I don't see the option on my iPhone; only a button that says "English (USA)" which is a language selector. I like the look of this mobile version a lot, but sometimes as administrator, I need full-version access (I can't get to the last page of a forum, for example, using the mobile version, or at least it's not obvious how to).

Wacky. It works on my 4S and worked on my previous iPhone, too (3G).

[bookluvingbabe]

Agnostic on tags.

I don't like the big avatar on the front page of whomever started the most recent thread. (Not that everyone isn't lovely...But...)

Mobile loaded just fine to my ipod touch without trying. The choice doesn't stick on my blackberry but I'm not sure if that is a blackberry issue or a site issue.

I appreciate the typeface is bigger but that might be in that in the six months since my last eye exam, I've tipped over in to the blind as a bat stage of life.

[Escoffier]

Other than going into each forum and selecting "Mark All Read", how do I mark all entries read? I've run into the problem with vBulletin elsewhere and there doesn't seem to be a simple answer. I would also suggest that if you require people to go to donrockwell.com instead of www.donrockwell.com that

www.DonRockwell.com

be removed from the main forum page and when I type www.donrockwell.com I just get a redirect to donrockwell.com which shows up in the header (that little roadmap at the top of the page that looks like: www.donrockwell.com -> www.donrockwell.com -> Gluttony and Drool Forum). Now mind you, this is in Firefox, so Internet Exploder may do something different (I'd be willing to bet that IE does something different no matter what you do), but I've never had a problem getting here.

[dcs]

Other than going into each forum and selecting "Mark All Read", how do I mark all entries read? I've run into the problem with vBulletin elsewhere and there doesn't seem to be a simple answer.

Go to the bottom of the page and click on "Mark Community Read." In the pop-up click on "Mark all as read."

[Escoffier]

Go to the bottom of the page and click on "Mark Community Read." In the pop-up click on "Mark all as read."

Yep, I did that. Unfortunately, I still have all 451 topics I started/wrote something in/glanced at once/thought about reading present on the 35 pages of "My Content". Now if I could only figure out a way to get rid of the ones I don't want....

Apparently someone decided that the Facebook paradigm is something everyone is clamoring for and so now everything looks like Facebook. The homogenization of every possible website into one bland, generic interface for everything.

[DonRocks]

Apparently someone decided that the Facebook paradigm is something everyone is clamoring for and so now everything looks like Facebook. The homogenization of every possible website into one bland, generic interface for everything.

I agree. Although I prefer this Invision interface over the previous one (which was nothing more than an evolved grope from a makeshift start-up company), I still hate the Facebooking (which is the internet equivalent of Wal-Marting) of the world. Standards are nice, but this isn't a particularly high-level standard. An ape could have developed a prettier way to use the web.

[Escoffier]

An ape could have developed a prettier way to use the web.

You just insulted every ape in the world.

[SeanMike]

Ya know what's funny, Don? You were asking how to get out of "mobile" mode. My phone won't stay IN it!

[DonRocks]

I've heard at least one person is having trouble accessing the site through IE9 - any others? And if so, could you describe what happens?

[schulju]

I'm using Chrome. I was able to access the main navigation page one time this morning, but none of the links worked. I exited out of the site and attempted to return, and the site wouldn't load at all. That was around 7:30am. Obviously, the issue seems to have resolved itself at this point.

[DonRocks]

I'm using Chrome. I was able to access the main navigation page one time this morning, but none of the links worked. I exited out of the site and attempted to return, and the site wouldn't load at all. That was around 7:30am. Obviously, the issue seems to have resolved itself at this point.

I suspect that was just a problem with the Dreamhost server (if something like this ever happens for an hour or more, please email me at donrockwell at dcdining period com).