Bagels

[darkstar965]

 It may come across as that but I do like Bruegger's -- I was a regular at their store in Kenmore Sq in Boston many years ago and then even more of a regular at their store in Franklin Farm in VA before a franchisee dispute wiped that place out -- and I do not like Einstein's at all.

Manhattan Bagel also blows, as does Chesapeake.Au Bon Pain's bagels are some of the worst things they offer; Panera's suck as well. Dunkin Donuts, incredibly, has decent bagels.

Seriously, places like Au Bon Pain and Panera Bread don't sell bagels. I know they sell things they call bagels. But, with the wrong inputs, no proofing and no boiling, they're selling rolls.  Bad rolls with holes in the middle. Dunking Donuts may have decent hole-ified rolls you like but, again, I can't imagine they're actually bagels.

---

[The following posts have been split into separate threads:

Bruegger's Bagels (DonRocks)

Georgetown Bagelry (darkstar965)

Brooklyn Bagel Bakery (cheezepowder)

Bethesda Bagels (zoramargolis)]

Edited December 21, 2013 by DonRocks

[DanielK]

I like Georgetown Bagelry as well.

Here are other places in the area that serve a good bagel:

Bethesda Bagels [bethesda, Gaithersburg]

Ize's [Rockville]

Bagel City [Rockville]

Goldberg's [Rockville, Silver Spring, Potomac]

As far as I am aware, all of the local delis [broadway, Chutzpah, Parkway, Woodside, etc.] get their bagels from somewhere else. The only exception that I am aware of is Royal Deli in Germantown, and I have heard mixed things (I haven't been).

[turbogrrl]

Made the trek up to Greg's bagels this weekend-- and while the attraction is usually the incredible variety of fish they have, the bagels were really good. (sample set: sesame and colossus.) The european and scandanavian salmon were smooth, and flavorful without being overtly salty.

[DaveO]

I opened my big web mouth about "best bagels" in the area, and had referenced bethesda bagels, tysons bagel shop, georgetown bages. I had forgotten about Goldberg's. I thought they were in the same category.

Not familiar w/ bagel city or Ize's.

[turbogrrl]

When you say Chesapeake blows, which one are you speaking of? it's a franchise operation, so location actually matters. The one in McLean used to be decent... of course, I haven't been in about 5 years, since I no longer commute that way.

[Bob Wells]

When you say Chesapeake blows, which one are you speaking of? it's a franchise operation, so location actually matters. The one in McLean used to be decent... of course, I haven't been in about 5 years, since I no longer commute that way.

Well, I haven't been to a Chesapeake in years either, so they may in fact no longer blow. But back then, I tried more than one Chesapeake location, and they all blew.

It's like Burger King, some locations may blow less than others, but they all now blow.

[hm212]

As far as I am aware, all of the local delis [broadway, Chutzpah, Parkway, Woodside, etc.] get their bagels from somewhere else. The only exception that I am aware of is Royal Deli in Germantown, and I have heard mixed things (I haven't been).

I am a fan of Bethesda Bagels, Ize's and Royal Deli.

Royal Deli is my favorite as their bakery goods are all made fresh and reminds of old school New York bakery. Other than their out of the way location, I am surprised they don't have more fans on here.

http://www.royalbagelbakery.com/Home/tabid/192/Default.aspx

[DanielK]

Harold, since you endorse Royal Deli, I will give them a visit soon.

We should do a DR.com MoCo bagel-off. I propose Saturday 1/26 for brunch at my house in Potomac. If you want in, send a PM.

[DonRocks]

Harold, since you endorse Royal Deli, I will give them a visit soon.

We should do a DR.com MoCo bagel-off. I propose Saturday 1/26 for brunch at my house in Potomac. If you want in, send a PM.

May I suggest this is done blind, with only one person knowing the true identity, and comments recorded or written down? It would be an interesting exercise. All bagels should be the same (e.g. sesame), and should be tried plain before adding any spreads. Pictures will also speak a thousand words.

As much as it is more work than pleasure, all bagels should be tried plain, and all comments registered, before any spreads are added. Once the work is done, the feast (with lox, cream cheese, tuna salad, etc.) begins.

People can stop by whichever bagelry is in their neighborhood, but I think the bagels should be labeled "A," "B," etc., and the universe of choices not known in advance. That way, you could sneak in things like Lenders, Whole Foods, etc. and get an honest opinion.

The "Rolls With Holes" will be easily weeded out; the real bagels will be obvious. I'm certain of this.

[DanielK]

Already had written down exactly these notes, Rocks. We did something similar at my synagogue about 6 or 7 years ago.

I'll supply all the drinks and sides (lox, whitefish, LTO, cream cheese, etc.) and everyone will be required to bring fresh bagels from at least 1 source.

Again, PM to be included in the event. Spouses/SOs/guests welcome, until we hit my comfort level in how many we can have in my dining room and kitchen.

[DonRocks]

Already had written down exactly these notes, Rocks. We did something similar at my synagogue about 6 or 7 years ago.

I'll supply all the drinks and sides (lox, whitefish, LTO, cream cheese, etc.) and everyone will be required to bring fresh bagels from at least 1 source.

Again, PM to be included in the event. Spouses/SOs/guests welcome, until we hit my comfort level in how many we can have in my dining room and kitchen.

It's no different than a wine tasting. While not definitive, it will be very instructive, and a fascinating intellectual exercise.

It's a similar disciplined rigor that synaesthesia and I did five years ago in The Fab Forno (and I still take credit for that brilliant name).

Likewise (I suppose I can say it now since it's past the statute of limitations), I came up with this crazy idea about 7-8 years ago, when Todd Kliman was at The City Paper, that the two of us meet in Bethesda, and visit all three Jaleos in the same night (!), and order three of the exact same dishes (patatas bravas, gambas al ajillo, and, I think, tortilla de patata) - the whole thing took about five hours, and was exhausting. Yes, José, that was all me, and entirely my idea. The inconsistencies between the three restaurants were noteworthy, and Todd wrote José a breast-thumping, accusatory letter letting him know how inconsistent things were, and José came up with some annoyingly pre-packaged response which started out with, "Todd, I am *so* glad you wrote this." Yeah, right. José, I love you, man, but dios mio you're full of shit. Stop by the website sometime and become a member of the community - you might actually find that people here like you. I know I do.

[RWBooneJr]

Unfortunately, as this article correctly notes, "[a] bagel's half-life, untoasted and unadorned, is no more than half an hour," and after that they rapidly decline. Therefore, whatever you pick as the "best bagel" will likely be the freshest, unless you control for this variable.

I found this article a few years ago when I was attempting something akin to what you all are planning. My extremely unscientific conclusion was that DC's best bagels are generally found at whetever shop and on whatever day had the highest turnover. This is why I think New York bagels are generally better than their DC counterparts: New Yorkers buy a lot more bagels than we do.

My solution? I now make my own bagels, which is rather easy if you have a bread machine. I guarantee you wont find a better bagel in DC unless you are lucky enough to get one right out of the oven and consume it at the store. Interestingly, I also thought that, 8 hours later, my homemade bagels were still significantly better than any bagel I could recall purchasing in the Washington DC metro area. It would be interesting to see if that was actually true.

[Jeff Heineman]

Royal's Bagels are pretty good. Their attitude can be down right New York, if you inadvertently slow down the system on a busy morning. I am from NY and that is a good thing in my opinion. So the bagels are good to very good.

I usually judge Bagel shops by the quality of their whitefish, however. (I like Royal's, and Bagel City does decent whitefish)

[thistle]

Hey, I love you guys, as I continue to eat my crappy bagels (Pepperidge Farms minis), w/ the insides scooped out, & topped w/ peanut butter-if I were a lady of leisure, I would insist upon proper bagels, toasted, w/ a schmear of cream cheese, smoked salmon, & maybe capers or herbs on top...brought to me by the pool boy...

[darkstar965]

Harold, since you endorse Royal Deli, I will give them a visit soon.

We should do a DR.com MoCo bagel-off. I propose Saturday 1/26 for brunch at my house in Potomac. If you want in, send a PM.

Love this idea and that you offered to host it, Daniel. Hate that I wouldn't be able to do this myself until early February! Boo

Assuming you guys rally to do it on the 26th, I'd only suggest you use plain bagels (not sesame, no topping whatsoever). If you blind test bagels, blind test bagels. Not sesame seeds, onion or, god forbid, 'everything.'

[darkstar965]

Unfortunately, as this article correctly notes, "[a] bagel's half-life, untoasted and unadorned, is no more than half an hour," and after that they rapidly decline. Therefore, whatever you pick as the "best bagel" will likely be the freshest, unless you control for this variable.

I found this article a few years ago when I was attempting something akin to what you all are planning. My extremely unscientific conclusion was that DC's best bagels are generally found at whetever shop and on whatever day had the highest turnover. This is why I think New York bagels are generally better than their DC counterparts: New Yorkers buy a lot more bagels than we do.

My solution? I now make my own bagels, which is rather easy if you have a bread machine. I guarantee you wont find a better bagel in DC unless you are lucky enough to get one right out of the oven and consume it at the store. Interestingly, I also thought that, 8 hours later, my homemade bagels were still significantly better than any bagel I could recall purchasing in the Washington DC metro area. It would be interesting to see if that was actually true.

What a great article--thanks for sharing this RWBoone! The conclusion from the author's blind taste test seems a bit obvious--fresher is better. But I'm not sure I buy that you can't compare anything more than a half hour old. I haven't done a test like this so can't be sure but I'd imagine that you'd be fine blind testing so long as just-from-oven bagels are not being compared to day old bagels (extreme example). Surely a group of bagels all between 1 and 4 hours from the over would be fine to compare? Maybe not. Only one way to know and DanielK is on that train.

Making bagels at home has long been interesting to me. I've never tried it. Partly because I really don't claim any baking knowledge (don't yell at me, Zora! different from cooking ). Partly just due to inertia and my putting bagels in the category, also occupied by sushi, of things I only get out. But I think I believe that a very good (maybe excellent) bagel could be made at home.

[DaRiv18]

On the weekends, Buffalo & Bergen bakes bagels onsite that were made and boiled in NY. The salt bagel I had was very nice. Still, Neopol Smokery also sells anonymous bagels with their killer house-cured gravelox with a schmear, and I usually opt for them at Union Mkt.

[MarkS]

I will preface this with saying. Haven't had a great bagel in ages. I gave up pizza and bagels as my kids got older in favor of wine and steak.

But several years ago, Bagel City, n Rockville pike was authentic and accurate. I grew up. Brooklyn, live in Manhatten for several years, I know bagels and pizza. Bagel City on the pike is:was authentic.

And yes, their salt bagels and bialys were very good.

[bookluvingbabe]

I used to bring bagels back from NY and found that they could be revived pretty well if placed, wrapped in foil, in a warm oven for 10-15 minutes.

I think that improves the half-life quite a bit.

[Joe H]

"bagel's half-life, untoasted and unadorned, is no more than half an hour. It was far less than any of us had thought, but after more than thirty minutes, we saw a rapid decline in texture, crust, and even taste."

Fascinating thread.

I can't resist several comments:

I have brought back bagels from the New York metro area (pick a place with a reputation) for 30 years and ate them on the way here, once here, toasted here, frozen and toasted here, frozen for six months and toasted here.

I have had lengthy discussions about pizza crust and water. Arguably the water in Atlantic City is better than New York and Philly because the New York Times once said that the Atlantic City Bakery has the best roll in America. This is not what it sounds like: a naked light bulb hangs ten feet from the pressed tin ceiling with a 60 year old man in a wifebeater T shirt sweating profusely as he kneads dough. Yes, his sweat gets into the dough. The local water also influences the rise of the dough. Yes, it is the best "French bread" in America. This is baked in a 50+ year old pizza oven. On Passyunk in South Philly there is an eighty year old coal fired bread oven with a similar man in a wifebeater T shirt making his own bread and rolls. I swear his bread is better but the New York Times didn't go to Philly for the story....

I've also noted that almost everyone raving about the Montgomery County bagel shops live in Montgomery County. I, too, once lived in Montgomery County. For forty years. Now I have committed apostasy and crossed the river into Virginia where, by definition, we all speak with an accent and certainly cannot bake a bagel. Nor have the water for the dough to rise.

I should also mention that I've eaten Einstein bagels around the U. S. for several decades. The best Einstein bagels are behind Admiralty Way in Marina Del Rey, CA. These are suppose to be the same as what are served in west Kansas City, Minneapolis and various parts of Texas. Marina Del Rey's are better.

I should also mention that Los Angeles has better pizza crust (Mozza) than New York or New Haven (I've been to all...)

Still, we now have a discussion about bagels and who has the best.

Be glad the search is not undertaken in Kansas City or Minneapolis. But also rest assured that if the very same shop with the very same recipe and the very same grizzled war vet in a wife beater kneaded the dough with a lightbulb dangling above his head-it would taste better in Atlantic City or Los Angeles than here. Or possibly New York.

[Joe H]

We leave for Staten Island in several days for the Drunken Monkey (kudos to Mob Wives), Angelina's and a side trip or two which will include bagels. Wherever I stop I will ask (yes, i REALLY DO!) how long the bagels have sat in their little bin? Although I prefer an E. T. I'll take anything that is still warm from the oven.

If there are none we go to another shop.

With all due respect to my Montgomery County comments above...I have never done a bagel search anywhere in Virginia although we have driven from Reston to Bethesda and Rockville for bagels.

Is it indeed possible that warm fresh bagels are indeed better north of the Potomac than they are south?

...I also remember a totally different but absolutely outstanding bagel I once had at Schwartz in Montreal who coincidentally have better sour pickles than Guss'.

Now to put this way beyond the real world: for several years I would travel to Montreal and stop on St. Laurent and buy their version of a bagel sliced and swabbed with veggie encrusted cream cheese. I would stop at Schwartz and buy a gallon size jar of sour pickles, taking a plastic knife and slicing one in half, wrapping either half of the cream cheese swathed bagel around it. My mouth would open four inches wide to take the first bite chomping down through seasoned crusted warm roll, thick creamy cheese and cool sour, garlicky inch thick pickle.

Somewhere in Montreal there must be a woman, close to giving birth, who has discovered and obsessed for the same treat.

[darkstar965]

We leave for Staten Island in several days for the Drunken Monkey (kudos to Mob Wives), Angelina's and a side trip or two which will include bagels. Wherever I stop I will ask (yes, i REALLY DO!) how long the bagels have sat in their little bin? Although I prefer an E. T. I'll take anything that is still warm from the oven.

If there are none we go to another shop.

With all due respect to my Montgomery County comments above...I have never done a bagel search anywhere in Virginia although we have driven from Reston to Bethesda and Rockville for bagels.

Is it indeed possible that warm fresh bagels are indeed better north of the Potomac than they are south?

...I also remember a totally different but absolutely outstanding bagel I once had at Schwartz in Montreal who coincidentally have better sour pickles than Guss'.

Now to put this way beyond the real world: for several years I would travel to Montreal and stop on St. Laurent and buy their version of a bagel sliced and swabbed with veggie encrusted cream cheese. I would stop at Schwartz and buy a gallon size jar of sour pickles, taking a plastic knife and slicing one in half, wrapping either half of the cream cheese swathed bagel around it. My mouth would open four inches wide to take the first bite chomping down through seasoned crusted warm roll, thick creamy cheese and cool sour, garlicky inch thick pickle.

Somewhere in Montreal there must be a woman, close to giving birth, who has discovered and obsessed for the same treat.

I LOVE Joe H's two posts above. Could write a few paragraphs explaining why. But I won't.

I will respectfully challenge Joe though. Make up your freakin' mind, sir! Clearly, you must know that Montreal and NY bagels might as well be the proverbial apples and oranges. One has salt. On doesn't. One has egg. The other doesn't.

I can't remember (if I ever knew) where you're originally from but you don't seem like the kind of guy who'd sing the praises of the Yankees and the Red Sox if you cared about baseball.

[Joe H]

I was born on North Capitol street in the OLD Sibley Hospital which was long ago torn down and moved far west on MacArthur boulevard. When I was young I lusted for Wonder Bread whose factory was on Georgia avenue just up from Griffith Stadium. The effluvia of flour that hung over the Senators' ballpark in the '50's has influenced me unto today where my favorite sandwich is still a B L T on cheap, fresh, soft Wonder Bread. With a thick slice of Montreal sour pickle. Of course in those days there was a market somewhere around 7th street where you could get real sour barrel pickles, forking them out of the four foot high barrel, soft whole cloves of garlic pricked to the pickles' sides. Recently, I've driven from Montreal to D. C. with huge jars of Mrs. Whyte's that I kept in my trunk in the middle of January.

By March I never wanted to see another pickle.

Thanks for the nice words. And, yes, of course their bagels are night and day different. But this is more about a bizarre love of a unique taste with pickle playing an important role. I have tried the same thing in the Village-to more than a few stares-and felt that it wasn't quite the same.

[hm212]

We should do a DR.com MoCo bagel-off. I propose Saturday 1/26 for brunch at my house in Potomac. If you want in, send a PM.

Dan, thank you for putting this together. You are definitely the man!!!!

[cheezepowder]

On a related note, which of these bagel places have creative or exceptional flavored cream cheeses? Vegetable cream cheese seems common, but does anyone make a particularly good one? Any notable versions of garlic cream cheese and olive/pimento cream cheese? (Or I guess I could just try to make my own).

[KMango]

On a related note, which of these bagel places have creative or exceptional flavored cream cheeses? Vegetable cream cheese seems common, but does anyone make a particularly good one? Any notable versions of garlic cream cheese and olive/pimento cream cheese? (Or I guess I could just try to make my own).

Yes, make your own, mix in all kinds of goodies into your favorite plain cream cheese. I've found the flavor to kick the pants off anything I can buy elsewhere. The key is to include enough acid. The olive/pimento brine already takes care of that, but you'll want a squeeze of lemon juice or champagne vinegar when making garlic, berry, nut, or other varieties. Salt is also a good add if not already in the mix, depending on the cheese's final destination. If you prefer a whipped texture, buy it solid, whip it with a touch of milk, then incorporate the other ingredients.

And if you really want to go for the gusto, make your own cream cheese. Although, once you throw in all those other flavors, a top quality store bought plain variety is more than adequate.

[Joe H]

My wife and I made another pilgramage today from Reston to Bethesda Bagel on Bethesda ave and then on to Bagel City on the Rockville pike. At both-sitting in our car outside- we had ET's, both toasted with light veggie cream cheese and untoasted-straight out of the bin. At both we were fortunate that they brought bagels from the back room, implying they were more recently baked. When we returned home approximately 45 minutes after Bagel City and 75 minutes after Bethesda Bagels we tasted again, both toasted and untoasted.

1. I like the ambience of Bethesda Bagels more. Bagel City has the ambience of a glassed in cafeteria while Bethesda Bagels had some 'character."

2. Bethesda Bagels was 50% bigger @ 1.05 a bagel. For myself there is no question that it's crust was better.

3. Bagel City's .95 bagel had a rye undertone which contributed to a different overall flavor.

4. Bethesda Bagels was doughier inside of the better crust. This was not an "issue" at Bagel City whose overall flavor I preferred.

5. Toasted I preferred Bethesda Bagel overall-it compensated for the doughier interior.

6. Untoasted I preferred Bagel City.

Conclusion: both were worth the 58 mile roundtrip drive. Sitting in our car and picking at the untoasted bagels I really liked the Bethesda Bagels crust. Considering that I usually eat a toasted bagel I would give the nod to Bethesda Bagels. My wife initially preferred Bethesda Bagels but well into her second Bagel City bagel was considering changing her mind.

We now have 18 more bagels, sliced and stored in freezer bags awaiting the two day old followup taste test. I will probably change my mind again.

[zoramargolis]

Yes, make your own, mix in all kinds of goodies into your favorite plain cream cheese. I've found the flavor to kick the pants off anything I can buy elsewhere. The key is to include enough acid. The olive/pimento brine already takes care of that, but you'll want a squeeze of lemon juice or champagne vinegar when making garlic, berry, nut, or other varieties. Salt is also a good add if not already in the mix, depending on the cheese's final destination. If you prefer a whipped texture, buy it solid, whip it with a touch of milk, then incorporate the other ingredients.

Russ and Daughters in NYC makes caviar cream cheese, which has lumpfish caviar and chopped scallions and a not-terribly-appetizing gray-purple color. But it is delicious. I love the briny pop of the fish eggs. I often make smoked salmon cream cheese (mousse) with Trader Joe's "ends and pieces" lox, which is tasty and inexpensive. I throw it in the cuisinart with regular (not low fat) cream cheese, some sweet butter, chopped shallot, a bit of creme fraiche, a squeeze of lemon juice and some grated lemon rind, and fresh dill and white pepper.

[weinoo]

This topic forced me to go to Russ & Daughters this past weekend.

Their bagels (I don't really know the source) come in two sizes - mini and regular. The minis are just over 2 ounces, the regulars just over 3 oz. - so they're like the bagels I remember from when I was a kid. Eminently edible untoasted.

But of course, at R & D, there is so much more to choose from other than bagels...

[darkstar965]

This topic forced me to go to Russ & Daughters this past weekend.

Their bagels (I don't really know the source) come in two sizes - mini and regular. The minis are just over 2 ounces, the regulars just over 3 oz. - so they're like the bagels I remember from when I was a kid. Eminently edible untoasted.

But of course, at R & D, there is so much more to choose from other than bagels...

photo.JPG

R&D is the Willy Wonka factory for adults who love yiddish/jewish/eastern european foods. You betcha goldenticket!

[weinoo]

R&D is the Willy Wonka factory for adults who love yiddish/jewish/eastern european foods. You betcha goldenticket!

Well, at least the best appetizing .

[Joe H]

My wife and I made another pilgramage today from Reston to Bethesda Bagel on Bethesda ave and then on to Bagel City on the Rockville pike. At both-sitting in our car outside- we had ET's, both toasted with light veggie cream cheese and untoasted-straight out of the bin. At both we were fortunate that they brought bagels from the back room, implying they were more recently baked. When we returned home approximately 45 minutes after Bagel City and 75 minutes after Bethesda Bagels we tasted again, both toasted and untoasted.

1. I like the ambience of Bethesda Bagels more. Bagel City has the ambience of a glassed in cafeteria while Bethesda Bagels had some 'character."

2. Bethesda Bagels was 50% bigger @ 1.05 a bagel. For myself there is no question that it's crust was better.

3. Bagel City's .95 bagel had a rye undertone which contributed to a different overall flavor.

4. Bethesda Bagels was doughier inside of the better crust. This was not an "issue" at Bagel City whose overall flavor I preferred.

5. Toasted I preferred Bethesda Bagel overall-it compensated for the doughier interior.

6. Untoasted I preferred Bagel City.

Conclusion: both were worth the 58 mile roundtrip drive. Sitting in our car and picking at the untoasted bagels I really liked the Bethesda Bagels crust. Considering that I usually eat a toasted bagel I would give the nod to Bethesda Bagels. My wife initially preferred Bethesda Bagels but well into her second Bagel City bagel was considering changing her mind.

We now have 18 more bagels, sliced and stored in freezer bags awaiting the two day old followup taste test. I will probably change my mind again.

At 10:45 I have now toasted one half of a frozen bagel for one and a half cycles in our toaster. I couldn't wait two days....

The Bagel City bagel is as good as anything we had earlier today.

Who knew?

Tomorrow I'll try one of the frozen bagels from Bethesda Bagels...

[darkstar965]

At 10:45 I have now toasted one half of a frozen bagel for one and a half cycles in our toaster. I couldn't wait two days....

The Bagel City bagel is as good as anything we had earlier today.

Who knew?

Tomorrow I'll try one of the frozen bagels from Bethesda Bagels...

You need to bring Georgetown Bagelry into the investigation.

[Joe H]

http://www.washingtonian.com/blogs/bestbites/from-the-magazine/bagels-in-washington-our-favorites.php is Washingtonian for 2011:

Bagels and . . .
2019 West St., Annapolis; 410-224-8686
The best in the area, and should you happen to catch them fresh out of the oven, you’ll forget all about that trip to New York’s H&H or Zabar’s. The bialys are excellent, too—but they tend to be gone by noon. Owners David and Rona Finkelstein also get good-quality whitefish and lox. (The latter, on a recent visit, was richly succulent.)

Annapolis is about 100 miles roundtrip from Reston. Georgetown is much closer.

[DanielK]

and in my opinion, a day old bagel from NYC beats anything right out of the oven in this area. and I am not a NYer...just a lover of NY bagels.

I could not disagree with this statement more.

[Lori Gardner]

I could not disagree with this statement more.

I apologize- that was a generalization. The NY bagels I've had at Ess-A-Bagel, Murrray's Bagels, H&H and Pick-a Bagel have all been better the next day than a bagel from my local favorite, which is Goldbergs.

I found an interesting article on Serious Eats about a NY bagel tasting http://newyork.seriouseats.com/2009/10/serious-eats-finds-new-yorks-best-bagel-1.html

Their conclusion:

A bagel's half-life, untoasted and unadorned, is no more than half an hour.

It was far less than any of us had thought, but after more than thirty minutes, we saw a rapid decline in texture, crust, and even taste. Brooklyn Bagel's initial victory? Simply a matter of freshness.

[DonRocks]

I apologize- that was a generalization. The NY bagels I've had at Ess-A-Bagel, Murrray's Bagels, H&H and Pick-a Bagel have all been better the next day than a bagel from my local favorite, which is Goldbergs.

I'm with you here. Back when Arrowine was trucking in frozen H&H Bagels, I thought they were the best in the area. Now that DGS Delicatessen is trucking in frozen St. Viateur bagels, I think they're the best in the area. It's not a matter of it being "the water" or any such thing; they're merely some of the best of their type in the entire world, and even Goldberg's (which is very good) doesn't stand up to them, at least not from my experience.

[RWBooneJr]

I found an interesting article on Serious Eats about a NY bagel tasting http://newyork.seriouseats.com/2009/10/serious-eats-finds-new-yorks-best-bagel-1.html

Sounds familiar. I seriously encourage anyone with the kind of obsession for bagels exhibited in this thread (which I definitely share) to try making their own. You really can't buy a better one.

[darkstar965]

Wow-so many different views on a food so foundational to eastern European and American culture. That's awesome. As someone at least as much a bagel obsessive as anyone (ancestry, from birth, all of the the right cred methinks), I'm a bit all over the place on the stuff above. More specifically:

I could not disagree with this statement more.

I can't agree or disagree with DanielK (which, by default would mean I'd have trouble agreeing or disagreeing with foodobsessed6's original statement (which,of course she took back...aarrggghhh, I'm soooo confused kidding). But, more seriously, this kind of generalization (and the equally generalizing disagreements) are a huge "it depends" in my view. Depends on so many factors which underlie all the bagel debates whether about toasting/heating (as Zora advocates; me too but not for testing and more for lesser bagels), everything (like ericandblueboy) or nothing (my view for testing but not necessarily good eating).

I apologize- that was a generalization. The NY bagels I've had at Ess-A-Bagel, Murrray's Bagels, H&H and Pick-a Bagel have all been better the next day than a bagel from my local favorite, which is Goldbergs.

I found an interesting article on Serious Eats about a NY bagel tasting http://newyork.seriouseats.com/2009/10/serious-eats-finds-new-yorks-best-bagel-1.html

Their conclusion:

Don't apologize, foodobsessed! Strong opinions, however well supported, seem critical for proper bagel debates in the same way that two cabbies racing down 3rd Avenue in NYC scream at each other when both are in clear violation of the laws. So let's go after SeriousEats here for just a minute, shall we?

Again, just my view but I while I do really respect what SeriousEats did in terms of methodology and substance, I think they're wrong. This is an easy fly to swat from the sky. My evidence to the contrary is just too many times I've had outstanding bagels that were more than an hour or two old. And, of course statistically, most any bagel-off methodology (including SeriousEats and DanielK's) are definitionally flawed at least to some degree with too many variables not controllable.

A big, big thing we haven't even discussed much is the flour being used in bagels. More talk so far about boiling on the several bagel threads that have sprung up in the past week or two. It's my contention that many of the liked or loved bagel places are using less expensive all purpose flour rather than the 'correct' high-gluten flour. Try two bagels, one made with each, and the difference is obvious. I have. It is.

Serious degradation of all bagels, no matter what, after 30 minutes? Who are these SeriousEats guys (and gals) anyway? Hogwash, i say. And I'm no bagel dilettante.

I'm with you here. Back when Arrowine was trucking in frozen H&H Bagels, I thought they were the best in the area. Now that DGS Delicatessen is trucking in frozen St. Viateur bagels, I think they're the best in the area. It's not a matter of it being "the water" or any such thing; they're merely some of the best of their type in the entire world, and even Goldberg's (which is very good) doesn't stand up to them, at least not from my experience.

Oh. My. God. First, because I don't want to be branded a hypocrite after railing against generalizations, I'll fess up and admit I've only tried the bagel at DGS once. I posted about it then here; it was one of the early DGS posts with the bagel though buried in a longer post about the overall dinner we had. So you don't have to click on that link, the operative part was:

Bread Note: There was quite a bit of press about Mark Furstenberg dong the bread here. He isn't anymore. Rye bread was pretty good from Upper Crust. The bagels they say they're getting from somewhere in Montreal are disappointingly nothing special.

Based only on that one experience (so might be flawed, an "off night," whatever), I couldn't disagree with Rocks more in saying what DGS is serving is the best bagel in our area (if that's what he really meant?!). better than the top 4 from DanielK's bagel off? They freeze it for chrissakes! And both science and experience tell us that degrades any bread. That's lunacy, I say (with a big smile.) And, to think, this is the same DonRocks I applauded bigtime for sticking to his guns about the Freddy's Lobster & Clam lobsters being the best because they have that tank and they're not frozen!

Sounds familiar. I seriously encourage anyone with the kind of obsession for bagels exhibited in this thread (which I definitely share) to try making their own. You really can't buy a better one.

This is the most eyebrow-raising thing I've read in this entire (and the other) bagel threads. I've never done this. But, knowing what I know about commercial bagel making (see the only two-week-old 'Bagels vs Roll with Holes' topic here), there's no reason at all why a superior bagel couldn't be made at home. The reason why the best bagel shops have special equipment is to produce at higher capacity more than being able to create something with superior results like a high BTU commercial stove, a salamander, $2000 chefs' knives and other kitchen equipment do. Bagel boilers allow one to properly boil many at one time. No advantage there; a pot would do fine for a few at home. Proofing. Baking. Ingredients. All replicable at home. One might argue that oven temperature precision is key so a commercial oven might be a small advantage there but I don't think that's likely to be a big deal for most with decent ovens.

It'd be great, at a future bagel-off, for one of dr.com's talented bakers to bring a bagel made at home, of course using high-gluten flour and good water (not distilled!).

[RWBooneJr]

It'd be great, at a future bagel-off, for one of dr.com's talented bakers to bring a bagel made at home, of course using high-gluten flour and good water (not distilled!).

I use bread flour and special water I have arranged to be piped in by the City of Falls Church Water Authority. My recipe makes 8 proper-sized bagels, which are smaller than most bagel shops around here. I boil them in a giant (well-sanitized) crab pot, so the water stays boiling even if I add everything at once. I'd be happy to bring some to any future bagel tasting.

[darkstar965]

I use bread flour and special water I have arranged to be piped in by the City of Falls Church Water Authority. My recipe makes 8 proper-sized bagels, which are smaller than most bagel shops around here. I boil them in a giant (well-sanitized) crab pot, so the water stays boiling even if I add everything at once. I'd be happy to bring some to any future bagel tasting.

Ha. All we need is a host and venue. If someone can offer that up, I'll gladly organize us. But, RWBoone, you'll have to do what you can to disguise your bagel a bit so it's not blatantly obvious which is the homemade bagel at first glance. BTW, do you usually use high-gluten flour? All "bread flour" isn't alike that way.

[RWBooneJr]

I use King Arthur's unbleached bread flour, for no real reason other than that is what they sell at Whole Foods and I live a block from the one in Clarendon. The Clarendon Trader Joe's (a grocery store apparently designed for people who do not know how to cook) doesn't carry bread flour of any kind.

[darkstar965]

I use King Arthur's unbleached bread flour, for no real reason other than that is what they sell at Whole Foods and I live a block from the one in Clarendon. The Clarendon Trader Joes (a grocery store apparently designed for people that do not know how to cook) doesn't carry bread flour of any kind.

You might like your results even more if you bought a high-gluten flour and compared. King Arthur's also sells that but you'd have to get it somewhere more specialized. I don't do much baking but know from the "Shopping and Cooking" forum (maybe the "What are you baking?" thread) that there are shops around town that would likely have it.

[MarkS]

I picked up a dozen bagels from Bageltowne in Traville, the outskirts of Rockville. They were for my son and I didnt have any but I did have a bialy which was fairly authentic and good with a generous middle of onions and poppy seeds. The bagels were warm though I cant vouch as to whether they are totally made on premise or just baked on premise.

[DonRocks]

They freeze it for chrissakes! And both science and experience tell us that degrades any bread. That's lunacy, I say (with a big smile.) And, to think, this is the same DonRocks I applauded bigtime for sticking to his guns about the Freddy's Lobster & Clam lobsters being the best because they have that tank and they're not frozen!

FWIW, I think they're par-baked, then frozen. I've only had the St. Viateur bagel from DGS one time (here), and it was covered with enough stuff (including their terrific smoked salmon pastrami) where I couldn't really make a "scientific" comparison. All I know is, if someone offered me one, plain bagel to try, right now, from anywhere in the DC area, it would be this one, although at this point, I'd be almost certainly driven by curiosity; I could easily be wrong.

I got those H&H bagels from Arrowine for years, and although I never did a side-by-side comparison, I was pretty convinced there was nothing local at the time that matched their quality.

[darkstar965]

...All I know is, if someone offered me one, plain bagel to try, right now, from anywhere in the DC area, it would be this one, although at this point, I'd be almost certainly driven by curiosity; I could easily be wrong.

Have you yet tried Georgetown? Or even the couple of others that finished atop the DanielK contest? Silver Spring and Bethesda? I can't imagine if you tried a DGS without a ton of stuff on it compared to those it'd even be close for you. Aside from the age and par baking/freezing, it's also a different type of bagel (with different ingredients) than most around here which are without egg (the NY "water bagel" style). More on that on the Bagels/Rolls w/ Holes topic FYI.

[RWBooneJr]

FWIW, I think they're par-baked, then frozen. I've only had the St. Viateur bagel from DGS one time (here), and it was covered with enough stuff (including their terrific smoked salmon pastrami) where I couldn't really make a "scientific" comparison. All I know is, if someone offered me one, plain bagel to try, right now, from anywhere in the DC area, it would be this one, although at this point, I'd be almost certainly driven by curiosity; I could easily be wrong.

I got those H&H bagels from Arrowine for years, and although I never did a side-by-side comparison, I was pretty convinced there was nothing local at the time that matched their quality.

I wonder how confident DGS is in their bagels? Wouldn't it be nice if THEY hosted our next tasting?

[Joe H]

I wonder how confident DGS is in their bagels? Wouldn't it be nice if THEY hosted our next tasting?

Tom Sietsema on the Montreal bagels at DGS:

"Thinner and sweeter than their New York counterparts, the wood-fired Montreal bagels at DGS are alone a treat. Top them with smoked salmon pastrami, and you’ve got a nosh I could eat every day."

I have not been to DGS-yet-but do they sell their bagels individually and to carry out or are they only available in the restaurant?

Their website: http://www.stviateurbagel.com/main/ From the website:

"Since 1957, St-Viateur Bagel has been a central part of the culture and daily life of Montreal. Its legendary landmark bagel shop operates 24/7 and sells over 1,000 dozen bagels a day.

St-Viateur Bagel was founded by Myer Lewkowicz who brought his now famous recipe from Eastern Europe. The art of bagel making means hand rolling each one and baking them in a wood-burning oven. The current owner, Joe Morena, with over 45 years of experience in the bagel business, ensures that the traditions at St-Viateur Bagel continue to be respected."

I had them in Montreal many years ago and at the time thought they were the best I'd ever had. Actually I should have typed many, many years ago. It was probably in the late '80's. Today, I must note that 12,000 bagels a day is a LOT of bagels.

[darkstar965]

Tom Sietsema on the Montreal bagels at DGS:

"Thinner and sweeter than their New York counterparts, the wood-fired Montreal bagels at DGS are alone a treat. Top them with smoked salmon pastrami, and you’ve got a nosh I could eat every day."

I have not been to DGS-yet-but do they sell their bagels individually and to carry out or are they only available in the restaurant?

Their website: http://www.stviateurbagel.com/main/ From the website:

"Since 1957, St-Viateur Bagel has been a central part of the culture and daily life of Montreal. Its legendary landmark bagel shop operates 24/7 and sells over 1,000 dozen bagels a day.

St-Viateur Bagel was founded by Myer Lewkowicz who brought his now famous recipe from Eastern Europe. The art of bagel making means hand rolling each one and baking them in a wood-burning oven. The current owner, Joe Morena, with over 45 years of experience in the bagel business, ensures that the traditions at St-Viateur Bagel continue to be respected."

I had them in Montreal many years ago and at the time thought they were the best I'd ever had. Actually I should have typed many, many years ago. It was probably in the late '80's. Today, I must note that 12,000 bagels a day is a LOT of bagels.

No 'fightin' words there from either Tom or from St Viateur. No doubt they ARE central to the culture in Montreal, a place semi-regularly making noise about secession. And, if Tom thinks that they are, to his taste, "a treat," then so they are.

To be honest, I'm sure I've had real Montreal bagels in Montreal (can't recall if it was St Viateur but likely since I'd have researched that before going ) and I probably liked them. Has been too long.

But they are a totally different animal from NY bagels in important ways. Most of all, these Montreal things sweeten the water in which they're made. Once more, they "sweeten the water" -- maybe with sugar; maybe with worse. But that's why Tom thinks they're sweeter. Then, no salt. So one of ericandblueboy's beloved "everything" bagels would be a hunk of bread at war with itself if done with the Montreal product. Finally, they use egg (another thing maybe better not frozen). So, while maybe too harsh to terms these "rolls with holes," they could surely be thought of as some kind of odd French (Canadian) pastry. Which all reminds me of the quirky yet engaging film in which Juliette Binoche once starred.

[DonRocks]

But they are a totally different animal from NY bagels in important ways. Most of all, these Montreal things sweeten the water in which they're made. Once more, they "sweeten the water" -- maybe with sugar; maybe with worse. But that's why Tom thinks they're sweeter. Then, no salt. So one of ericandblueboy's beloved "everything" bagels would be a hunk of bread at war with itself if done with the Montreal product. Finally, they use egg (another thing maybe better not frozen). So, while maybe too harsh to terms these "rolls with holes," they could surely be thought of as some kind of odd French (Canadian) pastry. Which all reminds me of the quirky yet engaging film in which Juliette Binoche once starred.

Oh, well I can tell you that I *have* had St. Viateur in Montreal, and in general, prefer Montreal bagels to NYC bagels (although I enjoy both). That doesn't address the par-baked issue, but may explain some of my enthusiasm.

[darkstar965]

Oh, well I can tell you that I *have* had St. Viateur in Montreal, and in general, prefer Montreal bagels to NYC bagels (although I enjoy both). That doesn't address the par-baked issue, but may explain some of my enthusiasm.

Does this mean you've seen the film and enjoyed it?

[weinoo]

I use King Arthur's unbleached bread flour, for no real reason other than that is what they sell at Whole Foods and I live a block from the one in Clarendon. The Clarendon Trader Joe's (a grocery store apparently designed for people who do not know how to cook) doesn't carry bread flour of any kind.

Do you use Reinhart's recipe?

[darkstar965]

The "controversy" swirling over the new Dupont donut place (Cool "Disco" Donuts, Zeke's Donuts, Yet-To-Open Donuts, etc.) got me thinking that a traditional donut, from afar, is of a shape similar to a bagel. And, using logic I'll have to unfold here just a bit, one might argue this is another reason why NY style bagels should be considered superior to Montreal bagels (aside from the historical, cultural and other reasons ).

One of the few big differences between NY bagels and Montreal bagels is the former are savory and the latter sweet. Montreal bagels are purposefully sweetened with sugar and other substances you wouldn't find in a self-respecting NY bagel.

So, I leave you with this: If you want a sweet bagel, get a freakin' donut!

[zoramargolis]

You might like your results even more if you bought a high-gluten flour and compared.

Bread flour is made from hard wheat, and having a higher gluten content is what distinguishes it from cake flour, which is made from soft, lower gluten wheat. "All purpose" flour is made from a combination of the two. I don't know what the difference is between King Arthur's bread flour and high gluten flour, but they are probably not that different.

[saf]

I had them in Montreal many years ago and at the time thought they were the best I'd ever had.

I had them in August and thought they were exceptional. We also enjoyed the Fairmount Bagels.

My husband enjoyed both places with a slight preference for Fairmount, as they have onion bagels and garlic bagels. Also, that's where his Nats hat got the comment, "Nice Expos hat man."

[Joe H]

My wife and I made another pilgramage today from Reston to Bethesda Bagel on Bethesda ave and then on to Bagel City on the Rockville pike. At both-sitting in our car outside- we had ET's, both toasted with light veggie cream cheese and untoasted-straight out of the bin. At both we were fortunate that they brought bagels from the back room, implying they were more recently baked. When we returned home approximately 45 minutes after Bagel City and 75 minutes after Bethesda Bagels we tasted again, both toasted and untoasted.

1. I like the ambience of Bethesda Bagels more. Bagel City has the ambience of a glassed in cafeteria while Bethesda Bagels had some 'character."

2. Bethesda Bagels was 50% bigger @ 1.05 a bagel. For myself there is no question that it's crust was better.

3. Bagel City's .95 bagel had a rye undertone which contributed to a different overall flavor.

4. Bethesda Bagels was doughier inside of the better crust. This was not an "issue" at Bagel City whose overall flavor I preferred.

5. Toasted I preferred Bethesda Bagel overall-it compensated for the doughier interior.

6. Untoasted I preferred Bagel City.

Conclusion: both were worth the 58 mile roundtrip drive. Sitting in our car and picking at the untoasted bagels I really liked the Bethesda Bagels crust. Considering that I usually eat a toasted bagel I would give the nod to Bethesda Bagels. My wife initially preferred Bethesda Bagels but well into her second Bagel City bagel was considering changing her mind.

We now have 18 more bagels, sliced and stored in freezer bags awaiting the two day old followup taste test. I will probably change my mind again.

Now ten days later we are out of bagels. We've averaged almost a bagel a day, each. Eighteen frozen, toasted bagels later neither or us are sure whether we like Bethesda Bagels or Bagel City more. What I do know is that the Bethesda Bagel took one and one half cycles in our toaster while Bagel City used one.

Tomorrow our bagel run from Reston will be to Main Street Bagel Deli in Fairfax which won the first "bagel -off."

Have I mentioned that we are also comparing Honeybell oranges purchased at Wegman's with Honeybell oranges shipped from Hale Groves in Florida? For this there is no hesitation: Hale Groves, even @ $2.20 an orange are better.

[weinoo]

Bread flour is made from hard wheat, and having a higher gluten content is what distinguishes it from cake flour, which is made from soft, lower gluten wheat. "All purpose" flour is made from a combination of the two. I don't know what the difference is between King Arthur's bread flour and high gluten flour, but they are probably not that different.

Yes, they actually are.

[darkstar965]

Now ten days later we are out of bagels. We've averaged almost a bagel a day, each. Eighteen frozen, toasted bagels later neither or us are sure whether we like Bethesda Bagels or Bagel City more. What I do know is that the Bethesda Bagel took one and one half cycles in our toaster while Bagel City used one.

Tomorrow our bagel run from Reston will be to Main Street Bagel Deli in Fairfax which won the first "bagel -off."

Have I mentioned that we are also comparing Honeybell oranges purchased at Wegman's with Honeybell oranges shipped from Hale Groves in Florida? For this there is no hesitation: Hale Groves, even @ $2.20 an orange are better.

Joe H -- You MUST include Georgetown Bagelry (in Bethesda) on one of these amazing bagel runs! You also sound like a great candidate for the grandest of grand Bagel Offs to be held late Feb or early March.

[Joe H]

Today we trekked to the edge of Old Town Fairfax-from Reston. I should note that without traffic Bethesda Bagels is only a few minutes further...

Main Street Bagels is a nondescript strip shopping center corner store without any ambience or character to speak of. Inside they prominently feature a slew of sandwiches and endless deli products most of which would not seem to be made in house. Simply, there is little character to the place.

At 1:45 on Friday afternoon they were almost out of bagels. Almost out of ALL bagels. I think there were a grand total of four in the few bagel bins they had.

We bought two of them.

Our fault: we thought we could buy several dozen. We should have known better.

The E. T. was flat with more in common with a pretzel than a bagel. It could have easily sat in the bin since 7:00AM. The day before. As I type this the half that we did not eat was just toasted and it is no better. Something frozen from Safeway and tossed into the woods to a starving pigeon would not have been much worse.

The other bagel was quite another matter: a garlic bagle heavily flecked with toasted chips and a crust that easily rivalled the best from Bethesda. An inch and a half thick (twice as thick as the flattened everything) this was a bagel that would have won any contest, even one in the Bronx or Brooklyn. The interior wasn't as doughy as the Bethesda bagel. I should note here that we did NOT have it toasted, rather straight from the bin.

And we saved half.

That half I have just taken another bite of as I type this. Munch, chomp and chew... the best of the bagels I have tried in this thread.

A great bagel that could easily have come from the edge of the Williamsburg Bridge. On the Brooklyn side.

Main Street has authentic water bagels, just as Bethesda. Unfortunately my comment above stands: there is no "character" to the place. And, it would seem that they do not sell enough bagels to avoid all of the cheap signs for sandwiches and other imported deli that are probably not as good as what is in their name: bagels.

My guess is that Old Town Fairfax is not ready for a bagel like this. They also probably have a problem with consistency-one of the bagels was truly awful. And, with a grand total of four bagels left in the several bins they couldn't be selling nearly as many as they might have expected when they did their business plan.

Afterwards we stopped at the Fairfax Wegman's and bought a dozen everything bagels for $7.95.

Eleven of these were thrown back in the forest behind our hosue with the crumbs of the E. T. from Main Street.

This weekend, needing to replenish our bagel stock, we will return to Montgomery County and Goldberg's. On Sunday, on Georgia avenue in Montgomery Hills, near where I grew up.

I would like to believe that Main Street Bagels is much more consistent and, if we had shown up at eight in the morning (as we should have) there would have been hundreds of bagels in the various bins, all equal to the one garlic bagel which I thought was worthy of the Williamsburg Bridge.

Certainly worthy of Bethesda Avenue.

[darkstar965]

Yes, they actually are.

Weinoo's four-word assertion has always been my belief from childhood. That's when I think I first heard of something called a "high gluten flour" or "high protein flour" being the type used in the best bagels (and pizza crusts btw). As an adult, I'd been told that by a bagel baker in NY somewhere but several years ago. I'm not a baker personally and have never made bagels at home so had to do a bit of research to better support this belief.

It's a matter of protein content. Bread flours made from "hard wheat", "winter wheat" or even "spring wheat" seem to run around 9% to 11% protein. High-gluten flour, such as the "Sir Lancelot" sold by King Arthur is over 14% protein.

Here's a discussion from an online baking website that offers some clarity.

And here is the King Arthur product where you can see bagels specifically referenced.

Finally, a good clinical treatment of the difference between most "bread flours" and "high gluten flour"

Bottom line, the difference is about 3-4% protein which is significant since nearly all flour has less than 15% protein. All the sources make clear that the high-gluten flour is best suited for things like bagels and pizza crusts because they require more structure and firmness. And, because the high-gluten flour is typically more expensive than lower protein flours, this is why most bagel shops looking to cut corners will go with the more affordable bread flours. I think this is a major difference to people who can taste the difference but don't have a lot of flour and baking expertise. Bagel aficionados will talk about a better bagel having "better chew" or "less yield" and that's usually due to the protein content of the flour. The choice of flour really is a big difference maker between bagels, the huge range of wonderful other breads, and "rolls with holes."

[DonRocks]

The "controversy" swirling over the new Dupont donut place (Cool "Disco" Donuts, Zeke's Donuts, Yet-To-Open Donuts, etc.) got me thinking that a traditional donut, from afar, is of a shape similar to a bagel. And, using logic I'll have to unfold here just a bit, one might argue this is another reason why NY style bagels should be considered superior to Montreal bagels (aside from the historical, cultural and other reasons ).

One of the few big differences between NY bagels and Montreal bagels is the former are savory and the latter sweet. Montreal bagels are purposefully sweetened with sugar and other substances you wouldn't find in a self-respecting NY bagel.

So, I leave you with this: If you want a sweet bagel, get a freakin' donut!

A golden oldie: Doin' The Donut Thang - I Tore Through Tori, at Amernick, Komi, and Colorado Kitchen

(Yes, the Komi of old had both Sebastian Zutant and donuts - and it was cheap, too!)

darkstar965, are you implying that all Montreal-style bagels are unworthy? You seem to be slipping in some potshots, but I'm not sure. I'll come right out and say that if so, you're wrong! I love New York style bagels, and I love Montreal style bagels, and they are both fantastic.

[darkstar965]

A golden oldie: Doin' The Donut Thang - I Tore Through Tori, at Amernick, Komi, and Colorado Kitchen

(Yes, the Komi of old had both Sebastian Zutant and donuts - and it was cheap, too!)

darkstar965, are you implying that all Montreal-style bagels are unworthy? You seem to be slipping in some potshots, but I'm not sure. I'll come right out and say that if so, you're wrong! I love New York style bagels, and I love Montreal style bagels, and they are both fantastic.

Don, I hope it's apparent that all 'very strong' views on bagels (short of obvious stuff like whether they have HFCS or other monstrosities in 'em) are at least half kidding/tongue in cheek. I grew up with NY bagels and thus will argue they're better without fail. In the same way that I'm quite certain that the Cincinnati Reds are the best baseball team despite others who'll take big issue with that statement.

I do kind of wish the Quebecois wouldn't call the Montreal bread a "bagel" since it doesn't have a ton in common with the original bagels of eastern Europe. History, however, should matter. Eggs and sugar were expensive. They weren't in the original bagels.

For the record, the Montreal thing is a fine and worthy bread; a sweet, rich and lovely treat indeed. I like it too. And, I'd like it even better if it came straight from the right oven ("no more than 30 minutes from the oven" as DanielK feels critical) in the middle of Vieux-Montréal.

It would just be better for all concerned if they stopped calling the Montreal Thing a "bagel." It isn't. They should call it something more appropriate like "pâtisserie de magie de Montréal" or PM2 for time-oppressed Americans who don't speak French.

P.S., And, thanks for the reminder that I never made it to Amernick's Bakery or Colorado Kitchen, opportunities now gone forever.

[weinoo]

Weinoo's four-word assertion has always been my belief from childhood. That's when I think I first heard of something called a "high gluten flour" or "high protein flour" being the type used in the best bagels (and pizza crusts btw). As an adult, I'd been told that by a bagel baker in NY somewhere but several years ago. I'm not a baker personally and have never made bagels at home so had to do a bit of research to better support this belief.

It's a matter of protein content. Bread flours made from "hard wheat", "winter wheat" or even "spring wheat" seem to run around 9% to 11% protein. High-gluten flour, such as the "Sir Lancelot" sold by King Arthur is over 14% protein.

The only issue I see with this is that I think it's all-purpose flour that is the flour with a protein content of around 11%, whereas bread flour is generally in the 12% range. Still, When we're discussing protein contents that are 12% vs. protein contents that are over 14%, that's over a 15% difference in the protein content, which makes a huge difference as to how well the finished product comes out.

Here are the protein contents of King Arthur flours (which I think are the best easily obtained flours):

KA A/P = 11.7%

KA Bread = 12.7%

KA High Gluten = 14%

So the difference between KA'S bread and high-gluten is over 10%.

As someone who is constantly pulling out whatever remaining hair he has over the quality of my various baked goods, flours drive me crazy!

[darkstar965]

The only issue I see with this is that I think it's all-purpose flour that is the flour with a protein content of around 11%, whereas bread flour is generally in the 12% range. ...

Truly fairies-on-the-head-of-a-pin stuff here but I believe that different flour manufacturers have different protein content levels across product lines. So maybe not all A/P is 11; not all bread flour 12. Not sure what serious bakers would say about KA being the "best" flours but I've heard that too and they surely have been at it the longest, dating back to pre-revolutionary times. BTW, if you have interest and have never been up to Norwich, VT to visit them, it's very much worth it; such nice people in a newer and beautiful facility. I had a chance to do it a few years ago and, even though I'm not a baker, I loved it and learned a lot. I imagine if baking was a serious hobby, a KA trip would be like Disneyworld. And the surrounding area is gorgeous with lots to offer for a long weekend.

The numbers you post for KA are from their website but the big point is that high-gluten flour does seem to be a materially distinct product from A/P and "Bread" which have varying protein content depending on the mfr. That all matters only because the high-gluten yields a discernably firmer, denser chew characteristic of the most traditional (and some would argue "best") NY bagels.

[Joe H]

Calvert Woodley-not H & H but they are authentic and trucked in from New York. For the life of me I cannot remember the name of the bagelry but we bought E. T.'s My guess is that they were many hours out of the oven so a real comparison-without toasting-is unfair.

BUT, I just toasted one and feel comfortable that a comparison of "toasted bagels" is possible.

The Calvert Woodley authentic New York bagel has more seeds, more of "everything" crusted on both the top and the bottom. In fact having been in Munich a few months ago I was actually reminded of German seeded rolls which I absolutely love. Similar to the Main Street and Bethesda water bagels these have a very good crust. In fact just after leaving the store I ate the crust on both the top and the bottom leaving the chewy center alone.

The actual flavor of the bagel did not seem to be different from the Fairfax and Bethesda bagelries. But it was night and day different from Bagel City.

I wish I could have had this a few minutes from the oven. Certainly the seeds, toasted garlic and onion chips were more plentiful and preferred by me over anything I've had in the D. C. area. But the actual bagel itself, toasted and excepting this, was no better than the others.

Curiously, even with trucking this in, it was a bit cheaper than several of the D. C. area bagelries.

Toasted, D. C. more than held its own.

[Genevieve]

Got a relative coming to town for a while who'll be staying and working in D.C. (don't know where yet).  In Arlington, I'd recommend Brooklyn Bagel Deli, but where in D.C. proper do you highly recommend bagels these days?

[DonRocks]

Got a relative coming to town for a while who'll be staying and working in D.C. (don't know where yet).  In Arlington, I'd recommend Brooklyn Bagel Deli, but where in D.C. proper do you highly recommend bagels these days?

Bullfrog, DGS, WTF and BreadFurst if they offer them, Georgetown.

[eatruneat]

Bullfrog, DGS, WTF and BreadFurst if they offer them, Georgetown.

Bullfrog bagels are also available at a few places around DC. I know Glen's Garden Market has them as well as Big Bear Cafe.

[hopsing]

Does any place serve H&H bagels anymore?  They were the closest to the Brooklyn bagels I grew up with.  Brooklyn Bagels, despite the name, does not do it for me.  I used to get H&H at Calvert-Woodley or Arrowine, back in the day.

[DaveO]

Bethesda Bagel is at 1718 Connecticut, North of Dupont Circle.  Honestly haven't had them in years, but back in the day, I thought Bethesda Bagel was one of the best bagel places in the area.  (mostly got them out of bethesda).  I think Brooklyn bagels are pretty good, (and the owners are very nice) but if Bethesda bagel has same quality as they did in the past its far closer to a good NY bagel than brooklyn bagel, imho.

But beware, per Yelp, they have killer long lines.

...and btw:  I think the following is a terrific response to a complaint review:

Response from the ownerin the last week

Hello Chris, I apologize for the negative experiences that you have been having. Honestly, we are always trying to improve our system. When we first opened, we tried operating like our Bethesda location does, complete fail. We quickly learned that we needed to have better line management. When we got busier, we learned that that wasn't a solution in its own, so we started writing tickets. When it was clear that we were on the right track, we recently upgraded to a new POS system, which has had its growing pains, but overall it has been successful. As you previously said, it is insane between 9am-1pm on the weekends. We are constantly hiring new employees and striving to be better. We are always brainstorming new ways to improve. If you don't want to wait, we always bag bagel-only orders on the spot, so you only have to wait to pay for those(you don't have to wait for the line to prep them). We recently (as of this week) started doing bagels with cream cheese and bagels with butter as soon as they come in, so you don't have to wait for those either. As I previously said, we are always striving to do better. I understand your frustration, and I apologize. Due to the extreme demand and the fact that we customize literally everything for each order, there can be a delay. As for the forgetting of your order, that is unacceptable. Usually, when I see someone who has been waiting longer than normal, I pull them aside and apologize and give them a gift card. It gets zoo-like in there and sometimes the tickets get mixed up. Email me @ danny@bethesdabagels.com and I'll leave a gift card for you in the store. I hope you give us another shot!

[DanielK]

Bethesda Bagels in Bethesda offers one of the better bagels in the area, so I'm sure their DC store is worth visiting.

[DonRocks]

Bethesda Bagels in Bethesda offers one of the better bagels in the area, so I'm sure their DC store is worth visiting.

Huh. I didn't even know they had a DC store or I would have listed them.

[pras]

Bethesda Bagels in Bethesda offers one of the better bagels in the area, so I'm sure their DC store is worth visiting.

Plus 1 for Bethesda Bagels.

[Genevieve]

Thanks all! I have passed the recommendations on.

[Al Dente]

I used to get bagels from a joint on Mass Ave in Capitol Hill. It was between Schneider's ( ) and the Heritage Foundation ( ). Is it still there? I remember it being pretty good.

[KeithA]

My current DC favorites are Breadfurst, Baked by Yael across from the zoo, and Bethesda Bagel - north of Dupont Circle.  For people who ate fresh bagels before 1990, you may like the first two as they have smaller size and chewier crust bagels that are more traditional (which I like).  The downside of the first two is the limited varieties - mostly plain,sesame, and everything (might be something else at Baked by Yael too).  Another downside of Breadfurst is I've had really really good bagels there but sometimes like some of their breads they come out overdone/slightly burnt.

For most people who have eaten bagels only since they became mainstream circa the 90s, Bethesda Bagel is your go to - it has large, more pillowy bagels (still good) and in 20 some odd varieties.

[bullfrog is probably a good choice too - but I've only had tried them once at Open City at the Cathedral so won't opine generally]

Outside of DC, I'm still partial to Bagel City in Rockville (partly because they were my bagels growing up) - a big smaller, more traditional but still offer lots of choices.  Their onion and egg bagels are still my standards I compare against.  I wish Breadfurst and Yael made onion bagels.

[mr food]

Bagels at the Bagel Place aren't bad.

[DanCole42]

Did I miss it? Where's the love for Bagel Buddies in Fair Lakes?

[DonRocks]

Did I miss it? Where's the love for Bagel Buddies in Fair Lakes?

I've only been there once, and it was awhile back, but I liked it a lot.

[Bob Wells]

We used to go to Bagel Buddies a lot more often. It's always been solid.

Tip: Get one bagel with cream cheese, then another bagel on the side. You should have enough CC for both bagels.

[lhollers]

I used to get bagels from a joint on Mass Ave in Capitol Hill. It was between Schneider's ( ) and the Heritage Foundation ( ). Is it still there? I remember it being pretty good.

You're thinking of Bagels & Baguettes. Solid, but not spectacular, especially with Bullfrog moving in just down H. Lines out the door on Saturday and Sunday mornings, though.

[DanCole42]

I've only been there once, and it was awhile back, but I liked it a lot.

They have a ton of different bagels (pumpernickel, rye, asiago, blueberry, marble, etc. etc.) and cream cheeses (sundried tomato, bacon scallion, spinach artichoke, etc. etc.) and all kinds of different bagelly sandwiches (reuben, little italy, real lox with capers and stuff, etc. etc.). I'm not really a bagel snob, but everything's baked on site and the people are really nice.

[MarkS]

Keith-having grown up in Brooklyn in the 60s and 70s and having lived on 60th and 2nd in NYU in the 90s I will say Bagel City gets my vote around here. Funny though when I go back to NY Broooklyn Bagels on 8th ave in Manhattan is my go to.

[Rieux]

The bagel place on P st, across from the Palomar hotel, is pretty good! Bagels, etc.  Not amazing, but good enough for someone who grew up with real NY bagels

[sistinas]

I'm a big fan of Ize's bagels in Rockville near the White Flint Metro -

 

[Kev29]

On 11/11/2018 at 1:43 PM, DaveO said:

I’m confused about Goldberg’s and/or my mind is playing tricks with me.   Was there not a good quality bagel shop either where Goldberg’s is located or nearby as far back as the 90’s??

My mind is telling me there were area wide top quality bagels due North of downtown Silver Spring in the 90’s.   I was picking up good bagels from there at the time.   Was that Goldberg’s???   It’s website says it opened in 2004.

I grew up North of Silver Spring in the 90s and I can't recall decent bagels nearby back then. In the 70s and 80s it was all about Bagel Master in Wheaton (RIP)

[DonRocks]

On 11/13/2018 at 2:17 PM, Kev29 said:

I grew up North of Silver Spring in the 90s and I can't recall decent bagels nearby back then. In the 70s and 80s it was all about Bagel Master in Wheaton (RIP)

I haven't been in many years now, but The Bagelry on Vital Way (a vital cut-through for those heading eastbound on Randolph Road, and turning right on New Hampshire Avenue) wasn't that bad for a neighborhood place.

[curiouskitkatt]

Speaking of bagels, has anyone been patient enough to wait for the bagels at  Call your Mother ?

I plan on popping into the District sometime over the holidays, and want to plan way ahead for places I want to go. Just want to get a gauge of how far ahead I  need to be in line.

[cjsadler]

On 11/15/2018 at 9:53 AM, curiouskitkatt said:

Speaking of bagels, has anyone been patient enough to wait for the bagels at  Call your Mother ?

I plan on popping into the District sometime over the holidays, and want to plan way ahead for places I want to go. Just want to get a gauge of how far ahead I  need to be in line.

If you go to Timber (they own CYM) on weekends, you can get the same bagels without a wait, though there aren't as many options.    For two coffees and two egg sandwiches it's like $24 (after tax and tip), though, which is more than I want to pay for this type of thing.   I had a danish the other weekend and it was awful, so as tempting as they might look, resist.  The bagels are good, but I actually like Bullfrog's better.   

[curiouskitkatt]

7 minutes ago, cjsadler said:

If you go to Timber (they own CYM) on weekends, you can get the same bagels without a wait, though there aren't as many options.    For two coffees and two egg sandwiches it's like $24 (after tax and tip), though, which is more than I want to pay for this type of thing.   I had a danish the other weekend and it was awful, so as tempting as they might look, resist.  The bagels are good, but I actually like Bullfrog's better.   

I don't mind standing in the line if said product is worthy, but I wholly appreciate the heads up. In my time living in DC, it seems commonplace to stand in lines for things.

[DaveO]

Interestingly...on Sunday morning I stopped at the new Bethesda Bagel location now open in Rosslyn.   NO LINE.   NO WAIT.   Actually quite stunning.  OTOH, on a weekday morning as people were going to work there was a very long line--an unusual reverse customer phenomena for a bagel place.

[KeithA]

I like Timber bagels, and Bethesda bagels. Bullfrog are good too. I haven't been to Call Your Mother yet and in the past Georgetown Bagelry was good but its been a few years. I also grew up on and really liked Bagel City in Rockville but its been a few years and they have some awful yelp reviews now so it may be hit or miss. I do like the smaller size bagels at Bagel City. Baked by Yael bagels across from the zoo are ok but my wife is not a fan and the flavors are limited. Breadfurst bagels are overcooked often and are not soft on the inside as a bagel should be.  I once tried Pumpernickel bagels in Chevy Chase DC and thought they were awful. I recently got some plain bagels for the kids at Firehook and I don't know why but they were sourdough with a distinct sourness which of course turned off the kiddos. 

[Bob Wells]

44 minutes ago, KeithA said:

I like Timber bagels, and Bethesda bagels. Bullfrog are good too. I haven't been to Call Your Mother yet and in the past Georgetown Bagelry was good but its been a few years. I also grew up on and really liked Bagel City in Rockville but its been a few years and they have some awful yelp reviews now so it may be hit or miss. I do like the smaller size bagels at Bagel City. Baked by Yael bagels across from the zoo are ok but my wife is not a fan and the flavors are limited. Breadfurst bagels are overcooked often and are not soft on the inside as a bagel should be.  I once tried Pumpernickel bagels in Chevy Chase DC and thought they were awful. I recently got some plain bagels for the kids at Firehook and I don't know why but they were sourdough with a distinct sourness which of course turned off the kiddos. 

Thanks for the tip on Firehook. We live near the well-camouflaged mother ship on Flint Lee Road in Chantilly and I go there fairly often but have never tried the bagels. BTW, if you are out there, Chennai Express on Lee Road across from Target/Costco should be a must-try.

[Ericandblueboy]

New Wapo bagel taste test.

Winner is Pearl's.  Runner up is Goldberg's but apparently not a close competition.

[KeithA]

Updating my now 6 year old post up above, my current go-to bagels in DC are Baked By Yael across from the zoo. They are smaller, chewier and only traditional flavors AND EXCELLENT. (not though if you want a super soft oversized doughball that some people call bagels). I also like Bullfrog Bagels and Bethesda Bagels. I haven't tried Pearl's yet, its been a long time since I've had Goldbergs and I'm not a big fan of Call Your Mother. CYM is ok but the bagels are a bit sweet like Montreal style and they don't have onion. They aren't bad bagels but not my preference. Baked By Yael also has Ivy City Smokehouse's lox and whitefish salad which are great.  

[noamb]

I don’t know if they still do, because we mostly switched to Chewish (except my crazy child who actively likes Bagel Uprising’s everything because it includes sugar), but Yael’s used to be at the Del Ray farmers market also. 

[KeithA]

On 10/30/2024 at 8:25 PM, noamb said:

I don’t know if they still do, because we mostly switched to Chewish (except my crazy child who actively likes Bagel Uprising’s everything because it includes sugar), but Yael’s used to be at the Del Ray farmers market also. 

Yes, there website says they are at several farmer's markets: 

Old Town Farmers' Market
(Alexandria, VA)

Palisades Farmers' Market
(Washington, DC)

Bethesda Central Farm Market
(Bethesda, MD)