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Pappy Van Winkle's "Family Reserve" 23-Year-Old Bourbon


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"Truth be told," this isn't a bad review or anything; it's just plain ... weird.

Yes, it's Robert Parker. This reminds me of him rating sake about 20 years ago (I think he rated every single sake he tasted between 83 and 88 points), and is about as shoulder-shruggingly silly.

I guess California Zinfandel and Australian Shiraz can no longer manage to poke through that numbed palate, with their meager 17% alcohol levels. Meh, it's probably more in his bailiwick than Burgundy.

Pappy Van Winkle Family Reserve 23-Year Old Kentucky Straight Bourbon Whiskey; Bottle #7851; bottled at the old Rip Van Winkle Distillery, Frankford, KY; 95.6 proof; 47.8% alcohol


This is the legendary Kentucky bourbon that is the Château Latour of bourbons. Pure perfection, it is nearly impossible to find and retailers hate to have even a couple of bottles because it creates problems for them given the demand. Truth be told, it is everything one would want in a bourbon. With a deep amber color, it is one of the darkest of the Kentucky bourbons and boasts a strikingly intense, room-filling smorgasbord of aromas ranging from subtle smoky wood, caramelized orange rind, maple syrup, molasses, crème brûlée and cappuccino/coffee-like smell. Full and rich with profound sweetness, persistence and no hint of harshness or angularity, this prodigious bourbon could sit alongside the finest cognacs ever produced. It offers a remarkable tasting experience ... to be sipped, savored and like all the top bourbons, never diluted or served on ice. 100 points

As one friend said:

Time to flip it.

On a semi-related tangent, Hugh Johnson is selling at least part of his wine cellar. As another friend mentioned:

A couple of things struck me:

(i) why is it so boring?
(ii) should "unwanted gifts" be sold off so brazenly for profit?
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It offers a remarkable tasting experience ... to be sipped, savored and like all the top bourbons, never diluted or served on ice.

The idea that "all the top bourbons" should never be diluted is... unorthodox.

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The trouble with hyperbole is "where can you go from here?"

What's the difference between being blown away, and having every molecule in your body instantaneously vaporized by awesomeness? Can anybody truly say? Does it really matter?

When BTI first gave the PVW 20 a score of 99 in the late 1990s, it was so absurdly off-the-charts then, that it *demanded* your attention...and your purchase. I forget what I paid, but it wasn't much...$50ish? It's racked up a heap of 99 scores in the subsequent decade. And that was "only" the 20 year old product, bottled at a bare-bones 90.4 pf.

Where can you go from here? I also wonder what Parker would have done if Stitzel-Weller-distilled Very Very Old Fitzgerald was still available.

Any whiskey bearing the Van Winkle family name is worth hoarding and drinking, savoring, revisiting, and discussing. Personally, it makes me very happy that Julian Van Winkle is the kind of straightforward, un-geeky taster that he is.

http://gardenandgun.com/article/julian-p-van-winkle

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The trouble with hyperbole is "where can you go from here?"

What's the difference between being blown away, and having every molecule in your body instantaneously vaporized by awesomeness? Can anybody truly say? Does it really matter?

When BTI first gave the PVW 20 a score of 99 in the late 1990s, it was so absurdly off-the-charts then, that it *demanded* your attention...and your purchase. I forget what I paid, but it wasn't much...$50ish? It's racked up a heap of 99 scores in the subsequent decade. And that was "only" the 20 year old product, bottled at a bare-bones 90.4 pf.

Where can you go from here? I also wonder what Parker would have done if Stitzel-Weller-distilled Very Very Old Fitzgerald was still available.

Any whiskey bearing the Van Winkle family name is worth hoarding and drinking, savoring, revisiting, and discussing. Personally, it makes me very happy that Julian Van Winkle is the kind of straightforward, un-geeky taster that he is.

http://gardenandgun.com/article/julian-p-van-winkle

I don't think I could like this passage any more than I do:

He releases between 6,000 and 7,000 cases per year, “about what Jim Beam puts out in ten minutes,” Van Winkle says. “We’re the opposite of the Walmart business model: high profit and almost no volume at all.”

If they haven't already, Asia is going to latch onto rare Bourbon like a pit bull. And then, look out.

Wow, I had no idea that 50 out of 53 gallons of the 23-year-old evaporated. That is amazing.

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The idea that "all the top bourbons" should never be diluted is... unorthodox.

You are being generous, I call that idea idiotic. At that proof the alcohol holds onto aromas like a dog with a dried bull's pizzle. They are generally their most fragrant right around where he likes his wine (25-30% abv).

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The idea that "all the top bourbons" should never be diluted is... unorthodox.

You are being generous, I call that idea idiotic. At that proof the alcohol holds onto aromas like a dog with a dried bull's pizzle. They are generally their most fragrant right around where he likes his wine (25-30% abv).

Steve, I'm not going to put words in your mouth, but are you advocating for 50% dilution or more? I can't imagine that's the case. (This reminds me of when I posited to Kaz Okochi that he should drink his tea closer to room temperature to maximize fragrance - he acknowledged the theoretical merit of what I was saying, then brushed me off.)

Also, Parker has had more than his share of after-dinner Whiskeys - he's almost certainly saying to the general public, "Don't pour it over a glass full of ice." I'm cutting him some slack on this comment.

One thing I've learned on a micro scale over the past decade: people will seize on your every word, and when you're cranking out review after review, you've got to be ever-mindful.

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Steve, I'm not going to put words in your mouth, but are you advocating for 50% dilution or more? I can't imagine that's the case. (This reminds me of when I posited to Kaz Okochi that he should drink his tea closer to room temperature to maximize fragrance - he acknowledged the theoretical merit of what I was saying, then brushed me off.)

Also, Parker has had more than his share of after-dinner Whiskeys - he's almost certainly saying to the general public, "Don't pour it over a glass full of ice." I'm cutting him some slack on this comment.

One thing I've learned on a micro scale over the past decade: people will seize on your every word, and when you're cranking out review after review, you've got to be ever-mindful.

Depends what you are looking for in the whiskey. For aroma a 1:1 is not uncalled for (Scotch blenders dilute the whiskey to 20% to understand the nose of each whiskey), the problem with 1:1 is that it changes the mouth feel of the spirit so it loses,it's sharpness - frankly I have come to a point in my life where I no longer feel as though I have to drink straight alcohol to prove... whatever the hell it was that younger men try to prove.

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One thing I've learned on a micro scale over the past decade: people will seize on your every word, and when you're cranking out review after review, you've got to be ever-mindful.

I'd cut him some slack on this had he not said "like ALL the top bourbons, NEVER diluted or served on ice." - when you give people recommendations on how and what to drink for a living, you know damn well those words don't leave any wiggle room. Pappy 23 is bottled at 95.6 proof and whether to drink it neat, with a few drops of water, or cut by a substantial amount is a matter of preference. But some other high end bourbons are bottled at 120 proof or higher (Willett bottles a couple 17-year expressions at 145 proof), and to suggest those should never be cut is just foolish. (I'm guessing Parker's list of "all the top bourbons" consists of Pappy 23, 20, and 15.)

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I'd cut him some slack on this had he not said "like ALL the top bourbons, NEVER diluted or served on ice." - when you give people recommendations on how and what to drink for a living, you know damn well those words don't leave any wiggle room. Pappy 23 is bottled at 95.6 proof and whether to drink it neat, with a few drops of water, or cut by a substantial amount is a matter of preference. But some other high end bourbons are bottled at 120 proof or higher (Willett bottles a couple 17-year expressions at 145 proof), and to suggest those should never be cut is just foolish. (I'm guessing Parker's list of "all the top bourbons" consists of Pappy 23, 20, and 15.)

Yes, well, he's a Bourbon rookie. Ask Jake Parrott or Bill Thomas how absent my knowledge was (still is) before I wrote my article - I didn't know *anything*, but I knew who to ask, and - perhaps this is key - I had the humility to do it.

Several people probably just guffawed at the mention of "me" and "humility" in the same sentence, but, it takes a tough man to make a tender chicken, or (as I used to say to my piano teacher) you have to be at a certain level just to fully realize how bad you truly are.

All you need to do is pick up a copy of Parker's "Burgundy" book, and therein lies all your answers (*) - think Microphone + Blinders.

(Someone with their head buried in the sand, furiously kicking away at the tigers, when all the tigers left 20 years ago.)

The 1983 Burgundy miss (blinders) was greater-than-or-equal-to the 1982 Bordeaux hit (microphone). But when a fortune teller tells someone to go to Atlantic City and bet their life savings on "red," a 50% hit rate is more than enough (truth be told).

Point scores and dilution aside, I kind of like the enthusiasm in the review - now I'm curious about the others. I also feel bad because I feel like I'm poking fun at Liberace (who died a multi-millionaire and the most famous pianist in the world). Then again, I haven't forgotten what they did to Robert Callahan - it's not so much "what they did," as "what they didn't do," afterwards, when the chips were down. And it's still up there, for all to see.

"I want a burrito." - Amarillo Slim

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A better article about bourbon was published last year in the WSJ. The key fact is that van Winkle, Buffalo Trace and Bulleit are all distilled in the same place by the same guys. Caveat Emptor.

I love Pappy Van Winkle, but I've had Bourbon I like just as much that I bought from Joe Riley. No, it wasn't cheap, but it wasn't crazy expensive like this is.

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There is no way PvW can be "worth" the price it commands.  Same as Lafite or Romanee Conti.

In every product category, there is one or a few that are generally thought of as being "the best."  For whatever mysterious reason, PvW became that for bourbon. Maybe it really is, maybe not.  Who knows.  It doesn't matter.

There are always a lot of very rich guys who insist they must have "the best" but really don't know much outside of however they got rich.  They will always compete to get "the best" and drive up its price because it shows everybody else how rich/smart/powerful they are.

Anyone who wants to play that game, that's fine.  But don't confuse the price spread with any inherent quality spread.  It ain't there.

Now I'm going to get myself a nice glass of bourbon.  Probably Noahs Mill.  Comparatively undiscovered, and that's a good thing.

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Rowans  Creek is another good one.  And the younger Willets can be very good if you can get them and a lot cheaper than the PVW.

I was judging a pork contest and there was a bottle of PVW and I was poured a shot and didn't particularly like it as being way too woody.  I think it was the 13.  Not a fan at all.  They also had Buffalo Trace and when I said the PVW wasn't to my taste, I was poured that and liked it a lot more.  All this was done blind, not by design, just the host asking me if I wanted a shot.

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There is no way PvW can be "worth" the price it commands.  Same as Lafite or Romanee Conti.

In every product category, there is one or a few that are generally thought of as being "the best."  For whatever mysterious reason, PvW became that for bourbon. Maybe it really is, maybe not.  Who knows.  It doesn't matter.

There are always a lot of very rich guys who insist they must have "the best" but really don't know much outside of however they got rich.  They will always compete to get "the best" and drive up its price because it shows everybody else how rich/smart/powerful they are.

Anyone who wants to play that game, that's fine.  But don't confuse the price spread with any inherent quality spread.  It ain't there.

Now I'm going to get myself a nice glass of bourbon.  Probably Noahs Mill.  Comparatively undiscovered, and that's a good thing.

I finished off a bottle of the 12-year Weller awhile ago. Been meaning to replace it sometime soon. It was good, but I think I just don't like wheated bourbons all that much. I've never had Pappy, but for a similar reason I assume it wouldn't be my favorite, even if price wasn't a concern.

I'm not the most knowledgable about bourbon, but KBD seems a bit of a mystery to me, compared to, say, Buffalo Trace. I've never had Noah's Mill, but my favorite bourbon I've ever had was Black Maple Hill, who KBD made for an outside firm. The bottle design was quite similar to Noah's Mill, too.

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I'm not the most knowledgable about bourbon, but KBD seems a bit of a mystery to me, compared to, say, Buffalo Trace. I've never had Noah's Mill, but my favorite bourbon I've ever had was Black Maple Hill, who KBD made for an outside firm. The bottle design was quite similar to Noah's Mill, too.

KBD is indeed a mysterious company.  They are family owned.  Unlike most others they have gone out of their way to shun the spotlight in the past, although I seem to recall reading something more recently that that is less so these days.  They did recently rejoin the  distillers association.  In any case, they do put out good stuff.  There was a period during which they didn't distill but brought in whiskey from elsewhere for their own aging, but more recently they have gotten back into doing their own distilling.

They were founded by the Willett family, and still use the Willett Distilling Company name on some of their products.  In addition to Willett, mentioned above by Dean, they make Rowan's Creek also mentioned Dean.  Dean appears to be a KBD fan.

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I went to a liquor store today to pick up some beer and get a bottle of bourbon. My mistake (as I was somewhat pressed for time) was I went to the only liquor store in Evanston, which is rather overpriced compared to the big chain 'round these parts, Binny's. I was thinking of getting Noah's Mill beforehand but most of the bourbons there seemed way overpriced; is Noah's Mill usually $49 these days? So my cheapskate self just got a $20 bottle, instead; I've never had Old Granddad but a friend I trust recommended it to me as I like other high ryes I've tried in the past; I was deliberating between that and Four Roses (just the Yellow) at the same price.

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I went to a liquor store today to pick up some beer and get a bottle of bourbon. My mistake (as I was somewhat pressed for time) was I went to the only liquor store in Evanston, which is rather overpriced compared to the big chain 'round these parts, Binny's. I was thinking of getting Noah's Mill beforehand but most of the bourbons there seemed way overpriced; is Noah's Mill usually $49 these days? So my cheapskate self just got a $20 bottle, instead; I've never had Old Granddad but a friend I trust recommended it to me as I like other high ryes I've tried in the past; I was deliberating between that and Four Roses (just the Yellow) at the same price.

$49 is a very reasonable price for Noah's Mill; it's a typical "price point" for bourbons in that category.  I've paid more for it than that in Kentucky.  Like anything else, what something is worth is up to you.  Me, I pay the price for bourbon, but when it comes to, say, vodka I buy the cheapest plonk I can find.  YMMV.

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