Tadich Grill - an Expensive Seafood Chain in the Former TenPenh Space at 10th Street and Pennsylvania Avenue - Closed

[astrid]

In any case, the father came out and said it wasn't about race.  You can choose to not believe him, but that is what he has now said.  I just find Terri Upshaw's choice to air old dirty family laundry, in a way that hurt her natal family, to be very repellent.

People in this country believe in a lot of dumb things, many of which I find incredibly repugnant and destructive.  But if I held all businesses to that standard, I would have a hard time even feeding myself from a farmer's market.  As long as a business behaves in a generally ethical way in its business dealings, I'll let its employees and owners believe whatever they want in private.

[astrid]

Loving v. Virginia, 388 U.S. 1 (1967).  Such sentiments were important to Virginians until the Supreme Court put a stop to it in 1967.  Are we not to dismiss this state of affairs as "mere prejudice or racism?"

Surely you can tell the difference between private prejudice (yes, it is bad and hurtful) and legally barring people from marrying.  And I assure you that the civil rights era decisions did not change the private prejudice of many, even 50 years later.

[DonRocks]

Don -- I'll tell you what I told him: So what? I know quite a few mixed-race couples and none of the people have been disowned by their parents. He is trying to justify what these people -- according to the daughter -- have done, and that is laughable.

[bob, I would send you a PM in 90% of all cases, but in this particular case, I think it's instructional for people to see my line of thinking - plus, I'm not going to say anything to you that's embarrassing, or negative in any way, so I'll put my thoughts here.

I have no opinion about Tadich Grill's problem right now - I don't have enough information to have one because I haven't read all the articles closely, so my participation here has nothing to do with that. My secondary goal in running this community is to foster meaningful, entertaining, informative conversation among our members, but that can't come at the expense of my primary goal, which is to maintain a community in which the overall tone is friendly and respectful towards one-another. I saw the groundwork laid for both you and Eric getting a bit irritated with each other, and tried to nip things in the bud - it's okay: that type of thing is going to happen in a discussion like this where two people don't know each other.

You were obviously replying only to my last sentence, the one that said, "Eric's right - a lot of cultures put tremendous pressure on children to marry within their ethnicity." But the only reason I said that was to try and get you not to dismiss his comments - to see that he was making a reasonable point. My read is that your innocent comment, "Juuuuuuust a small gap ..." is the type of phrase which can be easily construed as dismissive (and therefore inflammatory), and that provoked him into something of a forceful demand: "You didn't answer my question." That was the point where I stepped in because I sensed both of you were starting to get a bit frustrated with each other, and just in case that was true, I wanted to calm things down.

But his demand seemed to prod you into dismissal, where you said, "You didn't ask a question the first time, Ace," ultimately followed by "Best of luck to you," which can easily be construed as meaning, 'This conversation is now over.' (He actually did ask a question, but I read it as only being rhetorical, and certainly not directed towards you.) Calling someone "Ace" can have an inflammatory effect regardless of whether or not you meant it to be friendly (sometimes, as an author, it's very hard to see how something you mean as lighthearted can come across as condescending, but I (as an observer) can easily see how this could be construed as such. Yet, "Ace" is something I would jokingly say to a close friend in certain situations). This is as good a time as any to state the obvious - that nobody is obligated to reply to any post they don't want to reply to - they could be in a hurry, or be doing something else, or simply not want to discuss it any longer - that's all fine.

Now, as I'm writing this, I see that three additional responses have been written, and I'm afraid to hit the Post button and see what they are (they will be posted before this is). All I'm asking is for everyone to remain civil and respectful, to take people seriously, to listen to what they have to say, and to respond with kindness and understanding - if making an assumption about a comment, err on the side of friendliness, and always take the highest road possible. These are guidelines for everyone about how to keep a discussion constructive and moving forward.

This has been a very interesting, informative conversation, and nobody has done anything wrong, and I'd like for it to stay that way.]

[Ericandblueboy]

I think there's a distinction to be made between telling your kid that he/she can only marry people of her own race/ethnicity vs. he/she cannot marry people of a specific race/ethnicity.  In the first instance, you're not clearly saying that one race/ethnicty is superior/inferior.  In the second, it's pretty obvious you're singling out a race/ethnicty as objectionable.

Thanks Don for pointing out that I did ask a question.  I haven't actually defended old man Buich.  I merely pointed out there's initially only 1 side to this story, and that story was told by someone who has no problem trying to rip off her step-son.  And even if that story was entirely true, it may not justify the charge of racism.

[DonRocks]

Thanks Don for pointing out that I did ask a question.  I haven't actually defended old man Buich.  I merely pointed out there's initially only 1 side to this story, and that story was told by someone who has no problem trying to rip off her step-son.  And even if that story was entirely true, it may not justify the charge of racism. 

I think in terms of the big picture (racism, discrimination (both personal and legal), prejudice, bigotry - as practiced in America), we're *all* on the same page here in thinking that it's desirable for it to end.

If anyone disagrees with me, you should absolutely feel free to say so (be prepared to back up your statements), but I suspect few people do; the same thing could not have been said fifty years ago, even thirty years ago, and yes, to a lesser degree, even today, although these beliefs are mostly discussed behind closed doors at this point. That said, I think they're being discussed behind *lots* of closed doors (both personal and legal) - more than people want to admit or realize.

In other parts of the world, all of the above are alive and well, in full-force, and both Romeo and Juliet and Othello are being performed on countless, real-life stages.

Thirty-five years ago I was at Clemson, in extremely rural South Carolina, and the racism was astounding. I remember playing in a pickup basketball game in our dorm parking lot - there were about six people standing around, and one of them took charge. Pointing at people while speaking, he said, "It'll be me, you, and that black guy over there," with the student of color standing about ten feet away from him. If you're wondering, "Why didn't you say anything, Don?" it's because this was extremely mild, and an everyday occurrence. This was in the 1980s, and I suspect people from the North have *no idea* about how badly racism permeated every aspect of living in the South. When I got my first job after college, at Arthur Andersen in Charlotte in 1984, there was a "People Board" in the coffee room, with pictures of everyone's smiling face above their name - it was actually a really good idea since everyone would stop in that room a couple times a day, and would quickly learn to associate people's names with their faces. There were three divisions (auditing, taxation, and consulting), and one day I counted the pictures in our consulting division: There were 51 white males, and 1 white female, and the 1 white female had just been hired. This was the largest of the Big 8 accounting firms (for those who don't remember, it was brought down by the Enron scandal). I should add that the man who personally made me my job offer and hired me was the Managing Partner of the entire Charlotte practice - everyone knew he was destined for big things (I could tell after having met with him one-on-one for just twenty minutes - he had an aura of tremendous, immense power), and he ended up becoming Worldwide Managing Partner and Chief of Operations for the entire company which had 85,000 employees and $9.3 billion in annual revenue. 51 white males and 1 white female.

In terms of this specific situation (the Tadich Grill situation), I've chosen to let the facts come out before making any sort of judgment, but others are choosing to comment as they're trickling in (which is fine, but this is what seems to be causing whatever small degree of strife we currently have - I suspect when all is said and done, people will largely be agreeing with each other). And if not? Well, that will make things even more interesting because intelligent, thoughtful people can disagree about a particular issue, and often do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3U4-mv5_08

[Tujague]

Whether this story is true, untrue, or if the truth lies somewhere in between, my question for anyone who is thinking of boycotting the place is, What would you have Tadich Grill do to make things "right"? You can't force a reconciliation between father and daughter, no matter what the reasons for their estrangement. There is no evidence I've heard of any systemic bias against persons of color, either employees or customers, at the SF restaurant. A hefty contribution to the NAACP or Black Lives Matter might seem like a symbol of good will, but would just be absurd pandering for no good cause. Certainly, you have a right to stay away, but doing so over a private, isolated family incident seems like a silly reason to do so. The owners must be throwing their hands up in utter exasperation over something to which they were not primary parties, over which they have no control, or any way (or real reason) to "repent." Let them be.

[lion]

In any case, the father came out and said it wasn't about race. You can choose to not believe him, but that is what he has now said. I just find Terri Upshaw's choice to air old dirty family laundry, in a way that hurt her natal family, to be very repellent.

Curious why do you find her talking with the press after 30 years very repellent?

I think there's a distinction to be made between telling your kid that he/she can only marry people of her own race/ethnicity vs. he/she cannot marry people of a specific race/ethnicity. In the first instance, you're not clearly saying that one race/ethnicty is superior/inferior. In the second, it's pretty obvious you're singling out a race/ethnicty as objectionable.

Thanks Don for pointing out that I did ask a question. I haven't actually defended old man Buich. I merely pointed out there's initially only 1 side to this story, and that story was told by someone who has no problem trying to rip off her step-son. And even if that story was entirely true, it may not justify the charge of racism.

I find the interesting point that in a majority of cases after grandchildren are born usually the grandparents come around. While this situation could be racism, somehow I get the sense money is also involved because of the family business.

[Bart]

I just find Terri Upshaw's choice to air old dirty family laundry, in a way that hurt her natal family, to be very repellent.

It took me a day and a half to remember what this story reminded me of, but I've done it!

This reminds me of the parents of that white woman in Washington state who passed herself off as black and was a the very successful head of an NAACP chapter there. Her parents went to the media and outed her as white for no apparent reason and pretty much ruined her life.

[Tujague]

It took me a day and a half to remember what this story reminded me of, but I've done it!

This reminds me of the parents of that white woman in Washington state who passed herself off as black and was a the very successful head of an NAACP chapter there. Her parents went to the media and outed her as white for no apparent reason and pretty much ruined her life.

You're talking about Rachel Dolezal. While the timeline is a bit fuzzy in the news accounts, I would say it wasn't for "no apparent reason"; rather, they were approached by a Spokane paper for comment on Rachel's accusations of abuse, to which they objected, and told the truth about her racial background. That's not a comment on racial identity, which is a wholly other, complex issue, but just to say it was initiated by a newspaper doing an investigation, not by the parents, whereas I suspect that in this case, the daughter was the one who reached out to the media.

[DanielK]

whereas I suspect that in this case, the daughter was the one who reached out to the media.

Actually, that's not how it happened, according to the daughter in the Tadich case - supposedly the media reached out to her, since the family restaurant was opening in her backyard.

[Tujague]

Actually, that's not how it happened, according to the daughter in the Tadich case - supposedly the media reached out to her, since the family restaurant was opening in her backyard.

Thanks for the correction; I didn't have the article to check.

[astrid]

Curious why do you find her talking with the press after 30 years very repellent?

I find the interesting point that in a majority of cases after grandchildren are born usually the grandparents come around. While this situation could be racism, somehow I get the sense money is also involved because of the family business.

It's from a personal reaction. While I have been lucky to be spared long term unemployment thus far in my life, I have seen its terrible effects in others. I would not wish that on my worst enemy. So someone publicly airing a private grievance to threaten the financial security of others, is totally not okay in my book.

I also learned that you just need to let people be. That goes for the father and the daughter in this case. Unless there was legally actionable abuse or illegal business practices, its better to let it go. To publicly announce the situation to make the other side the villain, smacks of the sort of manipulative and callous behavior I have witnessed from a few people whom I have largely cut out of my life.

[lion]

It's from a personal reaction. While I have been lucky to be spared long term unemployment thus far in my life, I have seen its terrible effects in others. I would not wish that on my worst enemy. So someone publicly airing a private grievance to threaten the financial security of others, is totally not okay in my book.

I also learned that you just need to let people be. That goes for the father and the daughter in this case. Unless there was legally actionable abuse or illegal business practices, its better to let it go. To publicly announce the situation to make the other side the villain, smacks of the sort of manipulative and callous behavior I have witnessed from a few people whom I have largely cut out of my life.

I don't have a horse in the race per se just curious about the mystery part of it. Family business is always tricky.

[DaveO]

I don't have a horse in the race per se just curious about the mystery part of it. Family business is always tricky. 

...and family mystery's can be tricky also.  I learned of one, but not till my siblings and I were married.  It took our spouses to uncover parts of the story.

Right now the Tadich Grill is a he said/she said controversy as far as the outside public knows.  I don't know what is true.  But I'll repeat, I learned of a business person's views that I found incredibly repugnant.  I know he knew I'd see them that way.  He made sure they never came out to me or others.  I referred him business.   He loved taking my funds and those of referrals.  Never said anything.

Based on the original accusation I'll stay away for now.  Based on prior experience I don't want to contribute monies to a business that might harbor perspectives that I find repugnant.

I'm sure more will be revealed.  Its public now.

[DonRocks]

[While I want to foster high-level discourse, I fear that this thread is devolving into a meta-discussion (a discussion about the discussion) - people are beginning to repeat themselves, speak in generalities, analyze comments (their own, and those of others), etc. In the past few days, it has gone from being an interesting topic into something approaching boring - that, in and of itself, isn't so terrible, but I'd just ask everyone to think twice about posting going forward without any further information. Note: I am *not singling anyone out here* - it's the discussion as a whole, and it's something I've been thinking about for a couple of days. Carry on (and yes, continue posting if you want, but from my perspective (that of a reader seeking to be enlightened and entertained), things have become bogged down).]

[Mark Slater]

On their Yelp! page, Yelp! has a large disclaimer asking people to take the opinions of the article to the discussion forums. That hasn't stopped many people from leaving them one star reviews.

[DonRocks]

On their Yelp! page, Yelp! has a large disclaimer asking people to take the opinions of the article to the discussion forums. That hasn't stopped many people from leaving them one star reviews.

I'd like to think this is one thing (but hopefully not the only thing) that distances us from Yelp - nobody has left any "reviews" or "stars" here.

Gang, let me take a moment to say that recruiting just *one person you know* to join us can make a huge difference. We have a completely different business model than Yelp, or anyone else, does - we don't rely on millions of reviewers; just "a few good people." If you think about it, the most influential restaurant publications have only several people on their staff; their "Comments" section is just a bunch of unedited, unfiltered noise. To the best of my knowledge, we're the only website in existence that takes that "Comments" section, and infuses it with the expertise that professional restaurant critics possess. (Yes, I *am* saying that you all know just as much about restaurants, and food, and wine, and cooking, and ingredients as the majority of professional restaurant critics - absolutely I'm saying that, and if you think otherwise, you're either underestimating yourselves (which you often do), or overestimating professional restaurant critics (which you often do) - the combination of which makes our members sound ridiculously deferential to opinions that should, in reality, carry no more weight than their own.) Don't forget that 25-30% of our membership consists of industry insiders, that we're closely examined by every major publication, and that anything important written here will become common knowledge within 24 hours; things written in the "Comments" section of major publications are generally lost in a jungle of weeds - there's a reason for all of this, and it has nothing to do with me being Don Rockwell.

[Simul Parikh]

Interesting, the Buich's response says something like "Just because there is a dispute between people of different races doesn't mean that there is racism involved".

The first girlfriend I had was not Indian, and my parents weren't happy about it. I was a 19 year old jerk, and I called my dad racist. He fumed and said, "I have one foot in India and one foot in America. In India, I'm looked at as an American. Here I'm an Indian. You don't understand anything about me if you think I'm racist." And he wasn't, and isn't. He's in fact completely the opposite, and I'd known that, but it was so easy to say something like that. The whole thing was just new to them, and he explained that he loves America and Americans, and sometimes he felt that he was losing his culture, and that it would perish with me. But, they've realized that I'm always going to preserve my heritage, no matter who I'm with. Since then, they have been incredibly warm to the girlfriends I've had, save for one.

In the recent past, I was seriously dating a woman with children who was going through a divorce. My parents didn't approve of it, and my mom and I didn't speak for a few months. My parents didn't feel comfortable with the idea of me marrying someone with prior children. She happens to be white. My parents made it very clear because they weren't about to be called the R word again. "We're okay with her not being Indian. We're okay with her being older and divorced. We just don't think it will be easy with the children." If I had ended up with her, and my parents and my relationship was never repaired, I could see people (or even me) saying that my parents were racist, but that would be a really unfair characterization of what happened.

So, who knows what really happened? It sounds like a heartbreaking situation, and hopefully there can be reconciliation and people can just enjoy some fucking Cioppino.

S

[mtureck]

So, who knows what really happened?

That's the only comment in this thread that matters.

Can we now stop with the gossip and hear about the food?

[Ericandblueboy]

So, who knows what really happened? It sounds like a heartbreaking situation, and hopefully there can be reconciliation and people can just enjoy some fucking Cioppino.

The holier-than-thou anti-racist lynch mobs aren't deterred by not knowing what really happened.  I doubt there can be reconciliation, now that someone's tried to kill the golden egg laying goose.

[jm chen]

...and an unusual opportunity to compare crab cakes (the "coast to coast" crab cake app with one dungeness and one lump cake.) 

But what's the verdict on the crabcake wars?

Order the coast-to-coast and everyone wins. Both the East Coast and West Coast versions are delicious. Not large, but tasty, each with its own version of remoulade to kick things up.

It really is as much like the SF original as they can make it; they brought out the sourdough starter from SF and bake their house bread from that, and of course the dungeness and sand dabs are not things we see often on this coast. If you sit at the bar on the right side of the restaurant, as we did, it's a near-copy of the same spot out there. The dining room on the other side has a completely different feel, more formal, if you prefer that.

[DaveO]

Interesting, the Buich's response says something like "Just because there is a dispute between people of different races doesn't mean that there is racism involved".

The first girlfriend I had was not Indian, and my parents weren't happy about it. I was a 19 year old jerk, and I called my dad racist. He fumed and said, "I have one foot in India and one foot in America. In India, I'm looked at as an American. Here I'm an Indian. You don't understand anything about me if you think I'm racist." And he wasn't, and isn't. He's in fact completely the opposite, and I'd known that, but it was so easy to say something like that. The whole thing was just new to them, and he explained that he loves America and Americans, and sometimes he felt that he was losing his culture, and that it would perish with me. But, they've realized that I'm always going to preserve my heritage, no matter who I'm with. Since then, they have been incredibly warm to the girlfriends I've had, save for one.

In the recent past, I was seriously dating a woman with children who was going through a divorce. My parents didn't approve of it, and my mom and I didn't speak for a few months. My parents didn't feel comfortable with the idea of me marrying someone with prior children. She happens to be white. My parents made it very clear because they weren't about to be called the R word again. "We're okay with her not being Indian. We're okay with her being older and divorced. We just don't think it will be easy with the children." If I had ended up with her, and my parents and my relationship was never repaired, I could see people (or even me) saying that my parents were racist, but that would be a really unfair characterization of what happened.

So, who knows what really happened? It sounds like a heartbreaking situation, and hopefully there can be reconciliation and people can just enjoy some fucking Cioppino.

S

Worthwhile comments.

[RWBooneJr]

The other side.

[DonRocks]

Just a thought: this story seems to be a little *too* easy. I'm personally waiting to pass judgment until I see at least one more piece of information (which may already be there) - but why didn't this come out before? I should also admit (which I'm doing right now) that I haven't even read the article carefully, as I was waiting for an owner response before I do - has there been one? I've seen family members get incredibly mean during domestic disputes, and do some nasty, borderline-inhuman things. From what little I know, this story is a potential business-wrecker - what was the motivation for it coming out now? Again, I want to emphasize that I'm not at all familiar with the details of the allegations; I just know that something really bad has been said about the owners by their daughter.

The other side.

This comes from having lived a long life.

[Ericandblueboy]

That response was utter garbage.  Terri said she was disowned by the brother (in addition to her father) who currrently runs Tadich Grill.  The brother said the whole thing has nothing to do with him, but did not deny that he has had no contact with his sister.  The fact is he made no attempt to rectify the situation until it hit him in the pocketbook.

[DonRocks]

That response was utter garbage.  Terri said she was disowned by the brother (in addition to her father) who currrently runs Tadich Grill.  The brother said the whole thing has nothing to do with him, but did not deny that he has had no contact with his sister.  The fact is he made no attempt to rectify the situation until it hit him in the pocketbook.

Lots of people have no contact with their siblings, for a variety of reasons. I see the important thing as the brother saying "the whole thing has nothing to do with him."

I still don't pretend to know what's going on - I have no idea, actually.

[lion]

Seems like the brother had financial incentives for the estrangement.

[JSnake]

So, how's the food?

[Bob Wells]

Seems like the brother had financial incentives for the estrangement.

Cha-ching! Dad said, "Kid, if you want the restaurant, you'll cut her off."

[monkeyrotica]

So, how's the food?

The fried oysters were outstanding, bluepoints I think. The local Rappahannocks on the half shell were small and fairly bland. The cioppino was tasty and my broiled sole with lemon butter was perfectly prepared. The long branch potatoes were made by someone who knows how to fry potatoes; crispy on the outside and steamy on the inside.

[silentbob]

We had a business lunch here recently and the cioppino was as good as advertised IMO.  Rich without being overwhelming, with lovely bread and just the right amount of kick.  Perfect given the cold weather.  Even the caesar salad was prepared and dressed with great care.  Really expensive though (maybe not unreasonable for dinner), glad I wasn't the one paying!

[monkeyrotica]

Price-wise, I think Tadich is comparable to the other steak/seafood houses in the neighborhood (Joe's Seafood, Capitol Grill, etc). You could find better deals at Occidental, but their seafood menu isn't as deep as Tadich and they certainly don't fly sourdough bread in from San Fran on a daily basis.

[Kibbee Nayee]

Business lunch at Tadich Grill today. When the sourdough bread arrived, I was surprised and pleased. Hard crust, soft-fresh-warm bread, with the genuine sourdough flavor of San Francisco.

I ordered the soft shell crab sandwich special, and it was excellent. The crab was fried perfectly, with no residual oil, and the toppings were fresh. This was a very satisfying sandwich.

[mr food]

I liked the bread but was underwhelmed by our dinner last week. Seafood in my dish was either not fresh or overcooked. Excellent team service and a good happy hour with fun drink and food specials-I'd probably return for that.

[DonRocks]

[jpbloom]

Eater suggests the closure is temporary, but no way to know if that's accurate.

[DaveO]

There is more to this situation

[Bob Wells]

14 hours ago, DaveO said:

There is more to this situation

Wow. How could the Eater story not at least note the family situation? Major blunder.

It's funny -- just a few days ago I was thinking how Tadich Grill had weathered the storm caused by the family situation and was safely ensconced in the local expense account restaurant rotation.

[Kibbee Nayee]

14 hours ago, DaveO said:

There is more to this situation

This is behind a pay wall....summary?

[Bob Wells]

24 minutes ago, Kibbee Nayee said:

This is behind a pay wall....summary?

It's the November 2017 Tim Carman Post story, basically reporting that the DC location has been losing millions of dollars because the reporting of the family racism story never allowed the place to gain its footing.