The Language Rant Thread

[Banco]

Impact as a verb. This is barrel-fish-shooting, as the Germans might kompose it. I'm beginning to think a thread devoted to the vagaries of restaurant patois is even less interesting than one devoted to the vagaries of linguistic exchange in general. If so, Don, please put us all out of our misery.

[porcupine]

Ha. As you can see you didn't miss much. Maybe we should get back to restaurant talk.

Bread service.

Coffee service.

Like price point, it just sounds pretentious.

I may have twisted knickers, but it's all in good fun. I have a volunteer job that's stressing me into insomnia; bitching about utterly trivial shit like this is a good release.

[lperry]

...(Also, I hate "reach out.")

+1 It sounds like a mantra for some creepy guy who can't keep his hands to himself, and also makes me flash back to advertising jingles from the 70s.

[DonRocks]

"Price point," annoying though it may be, has a use (in restaurant design, menu design, and marketing).

Fabio: "I'm going to open a less-expensive version of Fiola."

Don: "What price-point?"

Fabio: "$24-27 for entrees."

Can't you see that, at least sort of?

We've neglected what I consider to be *the* two most amateurish food-writing phrases, the first of which I know I've mentioned on here before:

1) This one is generally used by food bloggers on Twitter, generally accompanied by a picture of said dish that they just received for free at a PR flack's blogger dinner: "Blah-blah-blah with blah-blah-blah? Yes, please."

2) This one is generally used by food bloggers on their actual blogs, and appears at the end of a very short description of a dish when the blogger has run out of descriptors: Let X = chocolate, pork, bacon, egg, etc. "X-y goodness."

You know I'm right! I haven't seen these in awhile now.

(And I'm also just playing around - I've probably used both at some point in my life, but gosh I hope not.)

[porcupine]

appears at the end of a very short description of a dish when the blogger has run out of descriptors: Let X = chocolate, pork, bacon, egg, etc. "X-y goodness."

to "[x]-y goodness add "golden brown and delicious." Especially when Alton Brown says it.

[Mark Slater]

This one really grates on me:
tuck into something
to begin eating something vigorously. The kids really tucked into the stew. I could see from the way that they tucked into their meal that they were really hungry.

[DonRocks]

This one really grates on me:

tuck into something

to begin eating something vigorously. The kids really tucked into the stew. I could see from the way that they tucked into their meal that they were really hungry.

Has anyone other than Todd Kliman ever used this?!

Well, I guess *I* did here ... but psst here's a little secret ... I didn't write that line!

This is one of those "things" that I am absolutely guilty of ... a word or a phrase that's *great*, but something that you can only use once in your career because it stands out like a sore thumbzombie metaphor. The years pass, and I've forgotten I've used it ten times before and it unwittingly becomes trite.

There are these Great Thoughts that I've been carrying around my entire life, and of course I took the first opportunity to use them when I started writing on the internet. Now, I live in constant fear that I've used them more than once.

And every single internet writer in the world is reading this, nodding their heads with knowing sympathy.

[Mark Slater]

Tom uses it.

[The Hersch]

"Price point," annoying though it may be, has a use (in restaurant design, menu design, and marketing).

Fabio: "I'm going to open a less-expensive version of Fiola."

Don: "What price-point?"

Fabio: "$24-27 for entrees."

But "price level" or "price range" works just as well without being jargon.

On your "yes, please" and "x-y goodness", amen brother.

[KMango]

An Unsolicited Message to New Members, First-Time Posters, and/or Emerging Food Writers-

The "Restaurant Language Best Avoided" thread may haunt you. This thread may shame you. This thread may turn your face heirloom beet red.

Don’t let it.

The postings are mere observations, reflections, and commiserations from veteran posters getting our vent on.

You probably saw yourself in this thread. I know I saw myself all over this thread. The ego hit was, shall we say, toothsome goodness.

Taking all these pet peeves to heart could make you a better writer. Or it could make you never post again, paralyzed with insecurity over the possibility of making someone you’ve never met wince at a phrase they find lacking. Especially if you already have doubts about the depth of your culinary knowledge, experience, or writing, a thread like this could shut you down.

So Remember: This board is about food and personal expression, sharing a common love of culinary experiences. If your phrase is not perfect, if your worthsmithing muse is not showing up, post anyway. Get your content out there. It’s far more important that you keep contributing to the conversation than worry about a slight frown from some anonymous, perceived scrutinizer.

Post On.

[MC Horoscope]

Point suggests to me a single location or unit or digit, not a range. Price point meaning price range is just a strange expression to my ears. IMO.

Another one I don't get is 2-top, 3-top, 4-top for table for 2, table for 3, table for 4. Why even bring up the concept of top? Of course I eat on the top. Nobody ever eats on the underside of the table. It's just strange to me, adding nothing to the concept.

Did they have tables? Yes, a few two clears, some four clears, and a few six to eight clears. They are clear on the top.

[Mark Slater]

Here's the deal on price point. When I first started being a wine buyer, I noticed lots of wines priced at $6.66. I asked why that price. The answer: at retail, it becomes $9.99, the magic retail "price point".

[Banco]

An Unsolicited Message to New Members, First-Time Posters, and/or Emerging Food Writers-

The "Restaurant Language Best Avoided" thread may haunt you. This thread may shame you. This thread may turn your face heirloom beet red.

Don’t let it.

The postings are mere observations, reflections, and commiserations from veteran posters getting our vent on.

You probably saw yourself in this thread. I know I saw myself all over this thread. The ego hit was, shall we say, toothsome goodness.

Taking all these pet peeves to heart could make you a better writer. Or it could make you never post again, paralyzed with insecurity over the possibility of making someone you’ve never met wince at a phrase they find lacking. Especially if you already have doubts about the depth of your culinary knowledge, experience, or writing, a thread like this could shut you down.

So Remember: This board is about food and personal expression, sharing a common love of culinary experiences. If your phrase is not perfect, if your worthsmithing muse is not showing up, post anyway. Get your content out there. It’s far more important that you keep contributing to the conversation than worry about a slight frown from some anonymous, perceived scrutinizer.

Post On.

I don't know your gender, but thanks to the recent SCOTUS decision it doesn't matter. I want to marry you. _{(Oh, sorry, I'm married already. Damn. And I have two kids. Double damn.)}

[The Hersch]

An Unsolicited Message to New Members, First-Time Posters, and/or Emerging Food Writers-

The "Restaurant Language Best Avoided" thread may haunt you. This thread may shame you. This thread may turn your face heirloom beet red.

Don’t let it.

Amen. Just don't say "at the end of the day", or "spot on", or "porky goodness", because those things make The Hersch unhappy, and you don't want anyone to be unhappy, do you?

[DC Deb]

So Remember: This board is about food and personal expression, sharing a common love of culinary experiences. If your phrase is not perfect, if your worthsmithing muse is not showing up, post anyway. Get your content out there. It’s far more important that you keep contributing to the conversation than worry about a slight frown from some anonymous, perceived scrutinizer.

Post On.

Thanks for saying that. I have been posting here for a while but I am always leery of being criticized. Nobody likes that.

[Tom Power]

Thanks for saying that. I have been posting here for a while but I am always leery of being criticized. Nobody likes that.

Some of the best advice I ever got in a kitchen : "Thin skinned; don't punch in. Can't hack it; grab your jacket."

[jparrott]

"House-made."

It's even better when it's all over menus in Germany: "Hausgemacht."

[DonRocks]

"House-made."

It's even better when it's all over menus in Germany: "Hausgemacht."

For those who haven't seen it, France is considering forcing restaurants using house-made food to say so on their menus.

No, I don't mean they're cracking down on fraud, when industrial food is pawned off as house-made food; I mean they would actually *force* restaurants to state when their food is made in-house:

"France Battles 'Microwave' Food In Restaurants"

I know a fair amount about French wine laws (which are something parallel to this), and this goes *way* beyond that. It is perfectly permissible for a producer to "declassify" their Grand Cru wine and not label it as such; if this restaurant law applied to wines, it would *force* the producers to say "Grand Cru" on the label, even if they didn't want to!

[Lori Gardner]

I initially read this thread while holding my breath, until I could measure how guilty I am of using some of the language described as 'best to be avoided." was feeling pretty good about managing to steer clear of many of the catch-phrases that annoy readers both on my blog and on this board. Thanks to kmango, Don, and others for reminding us that the conversation is what is most important. (dare I confess that I'm still going to take note of the offending phrases when blogging).

[Josh]

It's even better when it's all over menus in Germany: "Hausgemacht."

It's not so much the phrase that bugs me...more the things to which it is applied. If I'm eating at a restaurant of a certain caliber, I expect that most things I'm being served are "house-made," and pointing out to me that your chef made his own pickles or mayo really doesn't wow me.

[Josh]

For those who haven't seen it, France is considering forcing restaurants using house-made food to say so on their menus.

NOOOOOO!!!!!

[u-bet!]

How about reviewers who want to like something? As in, "I wanted to like Restaurant X. I really did".

Why did you want to like it? Aren't you supposed to be objective?

[Pat]

How about reviewers who want to like something? As in, "I wanted to like Restaurant X. I really did".

Why did you want to like it? Aren't you supposed to be objective?

I usually take that to mean that there are elements in place that seem like they should work, but the whole isn't the sum of the parts. To me it seems like more of a frustration thing than an objectivity problem. YMMV (pardon the expression ).

[DaveO]

Were I to strive to be an eloquent food writer I would give serious credence to the above comments. Fortunately I have no interest in attaining that level.

This conversation brings to mind a story I heard a week or two ago about a server at a restaurant/bar during Sunday brunch.

Upon delivering the first part of the order, the server (still evidently suffering from a hangover from the previous night) told his patrons:

(somewhat paraphrased)

"I'll bring the rest of your shit in a little bit".

Now that is appetizing!!!!!!

[DonRocks]

How about reviewers who want to like something? As in, "I wanted to like Restaurant X. I really did".

Why did you want to like it? Aren't you supposed to be objective?

Oh, I have *no* doubt that I'm the guilty party here, and it's generally because 1) I know someone associated with the restaurant, or 2) it's a mom-n-pop trying as hard as they can, but are coming up short.

So in my case, the answer is "yes, I'm supposed to be objective," but only when I walk through the exit.

What's much more damaging to the public is when someone (like me, for example) goes into a restaurant where a friend works, has an off meal, and rests silent (although that's *certainly* not as damaging as writing something you don't believe in which I've never done in my life). Whenever I'm in "Restaurant Reviewing Mode," which these days comes in spurts, the "off-experience at a friend's restaurant" is often the meal that will end my writing cycle because it's easier to let another day go by than it is to trash the place (and then another meal passes, and then another, and then all of a sudden I'm ten meals behind). That said, the Dining Guide is sacrosanct and *always* reflects my best effort (because it takes *so* little time to move a place up or down) - for example, a few days ago I went to a restaurant in 14UP for the first time, and downgraded it several spots from it's initial placement even though I didn't write a review.

Funny, I just Googled donrockwell "I wanted to like" and found this discussion. Although I truly do appreciate the compliments, am I *really* too limited?!

[will_5198]

From my regular reading of food blogs, porcine ("the pork belly had a wonderful porcine flavor"...opposed to a fish taste?), piquant and sapor (trying too hard) are words I wouldn't mind deleting forever.

[LauraB]

How about reviewers who want to like something? As in, "I wanted to like Restaurant X. I really did".

Why did you want to like it? Aren't you supposed to be objective?

I'm guilty of this. When I say, "I really wanted to like this place," it's usually to preface comments for a visit that was disappointing. Why I want to like a place? It's very conveniently located; it's a cuisine I love; it's a concept and an ambiance that I find appealing. When the reality of the place falls short of my hopes for it, I'm inclined to indicate that I went in there with every hope of liking it, but it did not deliver.

[lperry]

How about reviewers who want to like something? As in, "I wanted to like Restaurant X. I really did".

Why did you want to like it? Aren't you supposed to be objective?

I think everyone wants us to have a greater selection of excellent restaurants, and it is probably somewhat unusual to go into a locally-run place expecting to dislike it.

[u-bet!]

I think everyone wants us to have a greater selection of excellent restaurants, and it is probably somewhat unusual to go into a locally-run place expecting to dislike it.

I don't think I've ever tried a new restaurant hoping I wouldn't like it. When I read "I wanted to like it" in a review, it comes off as rooting for the restaurant to knock it out of the park, an attitude which I think potentially compromises objectivity (in terms of giving a fair evaluation; not, of course, in personal taste). Having said that (wait - is that another one?), the reasons which have been given here for wanting to like a place are fully valid.

[porcupine]

"that having been said,"

"that said,"

can almost always be replaced by the less cumbersome "but" or "however"

[DonRocks]

I initially read this thread while holding my breath, until I could measure how guilty I am of using some of the language described as 'best to be avoided." was feeling pretty good about managing to steer clear of many of the catch-phrases that annoy readers both on my blog and on this board. Thanks to kmango, Don, and others for reminding us that the conversation is what is most important. (dare I confess that I'm still going to take note of the offending phrases when blogging).

There isn't a restaurant writer in the world who has made it through this thread unscathed! Also, for any food bloggers out there cringing, I can speak for myself in saying I have nobody in mind when I poke fun. Especially with this post, I had nobody in mind, but I know I've seen both sins committed many, many times, and if I've been guilty of committing these two writing crimes, it was in my distant past because I am *so* <--- there's another one, excessive emphasis (and parentheses, too! (and excessive exuberance!)) acutely aware of them.

"that having been said,"

"that said,"

can almost always be replaced by the less cumbersome "but" or "however"

In general, I agree with you. That having been said, in a longer piece, you may want to use both to avoid redundancy. Also, "that said" is one less syllable than "however," so there's some economy of cadence there.

Todd has said something like 'the first and foremost criterion to being a good food writer is being a good writer,' and I'm not sure I agree. Especially in a short piece, I'd much rather read the thoughts of an expert (I'm not saying you can't be both); in longer pieces that involve research, the writing becomes more important.

[u-bet!]

Speaking of redundancy (and as long as were piling on anyone and everyone), I tend to dislike Tom Sietsema's overuse (as I see it) of synonyms for different components of a meal, menu items, etc. For example, he'll mention a potato dish, initially calling it "the baked potato", but in the next sentence (usually when embellishing the description of the dish), refer to it as "the starch". Or, after describing meat and fish offerings, he'll write "stick with the turf instead of the surf". I have no idea how he would avoid this, but it's gotten to where I can sense it coming when I read most of his reviews.

[Toogs]

Is befuddling TS harder than befuddling a cat with a laser pointer? Honest question.

[DonRocks]

Is befuddling TS harder than befuddling a cat with a laser pointer? Honest question.

I once wrote a syndicated columnist (whose email distribution list I was on) and pointed out that he used "befuddled" twice in one paragraph - this, after he sent his piece out to *everyone*. He panicked and the correction was issued within minutes - it was pretty funny, but you had to be there I guess.

This is something everyone, and I mean everyone, is guilty of - the "favorite phrase" being unknowingly overused (I haven't noticed this with Tom and befuddled, however).

Blast from the past: The Pannies, featuring dueling Beard Award winners. I'm sorry, I had to stir the pot, I just had to. It's just so ... so ... pissy and topical. "Pannie and Chog" sounds like a 60s band, either that or a 1967 movie.

[porcupine]

In general, I agree with you. That having been said, in a longer piece, you may want to use both to avoid redundancy. Also, "that said" is one less syllable than "however," so there's some economy of cadence there.

I think we've wandered into the realm of aesthetics, then. I find the phrase trite.

Also that old DCist piece you linked to had one of the funniest lines I've read in a long time. Made pissing in this thread* worthwhile. Thanks for the laugh.

*that's making fun of myself, please no one take offense

[DameEdna]

Chris Kimball on America's Test Kitchen had a favorite word. When he would taste a completed dish, he would gaze thoughtfully, then say "phenomenal!" So predictable, it was a joke. Someone must have pointed this out, because he now substitutes other words. He still looks sad that his favorite word has been banished.

[DameEdna]

DR reads widely. Sometimes he expands the boundaries of expression. That having been said, I don't he has included " circle jerk" in his comments. Could be wrong.

[Poivrot Farci]

Is befuddling TS harder than befuddling a cat with a laser pointer? Honest question.

Depends if the cat is chasing an escort on its tail. Honest answer.

…the electric coleslaw that serves as its escort 4/9/13

But the twice-cooked Belgian fries best the flat beef stew they escort.. 3/21/13

Lightly toasted dark rye bread serves as another escort 1/9/13

The pistachio sable cookies that escort his Meyer lemon tart 5/11/12

…that last being one day's designated escort for the tavern's fried chicken 9/18/11

…are great escorts for the restorative cocktails 6/15/11

...basil-flavored tilefish gets an escort of saffron pasta 5/15/11

Take the mixture escorting the pan-seared salmon 3/27/11

…in part because every garnish, every escort, is special on its own 7/23/10

…and meaty snails it escorted to the table 7/23/10 (same article!)

My affection lies with its escort of potato “tots” 6/16/10

…and the cloying pad Thai noodles that escort a main course...12/30/07

A whole ear of corn and a cake of potato salad escort the grilled-then-roasted half-chicken...10/21/07

...even my well-connected Korean escort 10/14/07

…an entree of white tuna with escorts of "citrus caramel" and "pepper anglaise" 1/28/07

...and a number of dishes arrive with fancy escorts 8/20/06

...tilefish gets an elegant escort of diced lobster 6/18/06

Herb-paved salmon comes with escorts that bite and soothe:...12/11/05

...but not from the dull clump of chard that serves as an escort. 10/02/05

Panna cotta flavored with buttermilk is first-rate, however, as is its escort of sour cherry sorbet. 9/18/05

…like that beef, the chicken is better for its escorts 3/13/05

...all treated to fresh, seasonal vegetable escorts...2/97

Mornings, the 40-minute trip gets an escort of rolling hills...(whatever that means) 11/25/94

Escorts of frequently salty saffron rice and vegetables 5/13/92

[DC Deb]

I was refering to the snarky, know-it-all tone on some posts. This is a great community where people look for news and advice. If users are intimidated to post, you end up with a handful of people who post and others who just lurk or tune out.

[The Hersch]

"that having been said,"

"that said,"

can almost always be replaced by the less cumbersome "but" or "however"

These phrases, which have increasingly infested our discourse, are obviously not peculiar to food writing, and I find them more annoyingly common in talking-head commentary than in writing. "That having been said", "that said", "that being said", "having said that" are generally best avoided altogether, but if they have any underlying utility, it's almost always absent in present-day use. "Now that I've said A, I'm going to contradict myself a little by saying B" is the way these phrases might be usefully deployed, but most of the time nowadays they're just used to mean "okay, that's A, here's B", where the phrase adds nothing of value to the statement being made, and where even a "however" would be unwarranted. Careful writers take note: avoid these unless you've thought about what they mean, and then avoid them anyway.

[The Hersch]

Depends if the cat is chasing an escort on its tail. Honest answer.

…the electric coleslaw that serves as its escort 4/9/13...etc

Thanks for your hard work.

[Poivrot Farci]

This is something everyone, and I mean everyone, is guilty of - the "favorite phrase" being unknowingly overused (I haven't noticed this with Tom and befuddled, however).

...fat-veined pork belly...;...which he serves as a big, pistachio-veined triangle (Mendocino grill 2006)

In the same vein:

…vegetable-veined couscous...

…rosemary-veined focaccia...

Later, I discover that the beef-and-veal meatballs are also tender, and veined with basil and Romano cheese.

…tender veal meatballs veined with lemon zest.

Swiss chard veined with smoky bacon bits.

…cornbread pudding veined with apple bits

Crab cakes veined with corn.

…and a savory "pancake" veined with red and green bell peppers...

…rice veined with crunchy nuts...

…a cakelike brownie (veined with nuts and served warm)...

…to its slightly crunchy meringue center, to its dense, nut-veined chocolate base...

…light-as-air cigars veined with puffed matchsticks of roasted chicken skin

…turn out to be air-filled blimps of fried bread veined with scallions

…a pink slab of salmon terrine veined with fresh dill

…an appetizer of herb-veined pork sausage

…a bowl of pesto-veined house-made pasta

The fish sits on a plateau of cashew-veined coconut rice

…the flaky spinach pie veined with cheese

…ginger-veined ice cream

Crack open the sculpture with a fork, and you discover a rich vein of velvety vanilla ice cream.

…finely ground chicken veined with dark-green sour cabbage

…crisp not just from its veins of pistachios

[Toogs]

I do so miss Menocino

[Ericandblueboy]

...fat-veined pork belly...;...which he serves as a big, pistachio-veined triangle (Mendocino grill 2006)

In the same vein:

…vegetable-veined couscous...

…rosemary-veined focaccia...

Later, I discover that the beef-and-veal meatballs are also tender, and veined with basil and Romano cheese.

…tender veal meatballs veined with lemon zest.

Swiss chard veined with smoky bacon bits.

…cornbread pudding veined with apple bits

Crab cakes veined with corn.

…and a savory "pancake" veined with red and green bell peppers...

…rice veined with crunchy nuts...

…a cakelike brownie (veined with nuts and served warm)...

…to its slightly crunchy meringue center, to its dense, nut-veined chocolate base...

…light-as-air cigars veined with puffed matchsticks of roasted chicken skin

…turn out to be air-filled blimps of fried bread veined with scallions

…a pink slab of salmon terrine veined with fresh dill

…an appetizer of herb-veined pork sausage

…a bowl of pesto-veined house-made pasta

The fish sits on a plateau of cashew-veined coconut rice

…the flaky spinach pie veined with cheese

…ginger-veined ice cream

Crack open the sculpture with a fork, and you discover a rich vein of velvety vanilla ice cream.

…finely ground chicken veined with dark-green sour cabbage

…crisp not just from its veins of pistachios

Shiver me timbers! Me veins be throbbing by such misuse. Time to make that scurvy scallywag walk the plank.

[Bart]

This one really grates on me:

tuck into something

to begin eating something vigorously. The kids really tucked into the stew. I could see from the way that they tucked into their meal that they were really hungry.

JK Rowling used it in Harry Potter a few times I think. But she's, you know, British.

[The Hersch]

JK Rowling used it in Harry Potter a few times I think. But she's, you know, British.

Well, according to the OED, both Dickens and Thackeray used it too. They were, of course, British, but they were also among the greatest writers in the English language.

The real prize of the OED tuck article, though, is the etymology:

Etymology: The forms of this verb fall into two distinct groups; the development of the senses also offers difficulties. The α-forms (with long vowel or diphthong) belong to senses 1, 2 and the earlier quots. under 3; the β-forms (with short vowel) to the rest of sense 3 and all the other senses, beginning in 14th cent. in senses 4, 7, and occurring in 15th cent. in sense 6 (and in one or two later instances in sense 2). The latter appear to correspond to Middle Low German tucken , tocken to draw, pull sharply or forcibly, Middle Dutch tocken , tucken , Old High German zocchôn , zucchen to move or remove with a jerk, snatch away, pluck, pull, modern German zucken to jerk, tuck, tug, das schwert zücken , to draw the sword. The shortening of the ū in Old English túcian , early Middle English tuke , etc. to u /ʌ/ in tuck is notable, but is paralleled by that of Old English súcan to suck v.; compare also duck v. from Middle English dūke(n.

Cool, huh?

[dcandohio]

From Sietsema's chat today (my emphasis added on the third line):

TOM SIETSEMA :

First, what specifically didn't you like about the cooking?

Second, Le Diplomate is hardly a chain. The newcomer has some of the best-trained staff in town right now.

Third, I was all set not to like the place as much as I did. But from Day 1, the restaurant delivered on all fronts: food, service, decor.

[stickmoon]

When people write "nom nom nom" to indicate they are about to enjoy a dish they just took a photo of before posting it to Facebook. Gives me the willies.

[hillvalley]

The Brits win because they have fairy cakes and candy floss while we have cupcakes and cotton candy.

[Poivrot Farci]

A restaurant called Red Hen ought to ace pouisson.

That's debatable. The Washington Post, its 12 year veteran food critic and the editor ought to be able to know that “pouisson” is gibberish.

“Poussin” on the other hand, is the younger version of the restaurant’s namesake.