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Baking Bread: Knead Help


Jonathan

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I finally got around to making the NY Times bread. The crust and flavor were excellent-- this is definitely the best bread that's come out of my kitchen. I followed the weight measurements here, but the dough did not seem slack enough, so I added a bit of extra water. This was probably a mistake, as the final bread was a bit too moist. However, the taste of the bread proved that upping the salt to 10g as RLB suggests is definitely a good idea.

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I finally got around to making the NY Times bread. The crust and flavor were excellent-- this is definitely the best bread that's come out of my kitchen. I followed the weight measurements here, but the dough did not seem slack enough, so I added a bit of extra water. This was probably a mistake, as the final bread was a bit too moist. However, the taste of the bread proved that upping the salt to 10g as RLB suggests is definitely a good idea.

i concur about the quality of this bread, and next time will add a dash more salt. i haven't made bread for a long time, and was a little down on doing it at home after finding good bread at the store, but this recipe is so easy you almost feel you should have a loaf brewing all the time. the texture of my loaf was airy and highly elastic, so much so that butter literally rolled off of it.

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And is it out yet? :o

And how thick was the batter/dough? I just made a batch with yogurt and it was pretty thick.

eta: Just took mine out of the pan and it looks pretty good and smells even better. Now I have to wait a bit for it to cool before I cut into it to taste the results.

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And how thick was the batter/dough? I just made a batch with yogurt and it was pretty thick.

eta: Just took mine out of the pan and it looks pretty good and smells even better. Now I have to wait a bit for it to cool before I cut into it to taste the results.

The dough/batter was very thick (I used buttermilk). The resulting bread was very tasty, though. It is a fairly dense loaf (sorta the texture of a zucchini bread or something). Definitely something I'll make again, especially when you factor in that it takes no time at all to make. I'll certainly try his 'light' version too (using an egg, honey and part AP)

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The dough was very thick (I used buttermilk). The resulting bread was very tasty, though. It is a fairly dense loaf (sorta the texture of a zucchini bread or something). Definitely something I'll make again, especially when you factor in that it takes no time at all to make. I might try the other 'light' version too (using an egg and part AP)

My version with the yogurt/sour cream mix turned well too. I think it would be great with some nuts and/or dried fruit added too.

eta: Had some more of the bread today and it has some sweetness to it. I have it stored in a large ziploc and it is very moist.

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Bittman is back on bread. This time quick breads. The batter for this took about 5 minutes to put together. It's in the oven now.

Made the 'lighter' version of this today, which subsitutes honey for molasses, some white for wheat flour and adds one egg. Delicious-- even better than the all wheat/molasses one. Again, super quick to make.

eta: Damn, I just ate two more pieces of this. Really good. Like mdt mentioned, these breads bake up very moist, so double check that the inside is done. You may need to turn down the oven at the end to avoid burning the outside but letting the inside bake a bit more.

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Bittman is back on bread. This time quick breads. The batter for this took about 5 minutes to put together. It's in the oven now.

Thanks for posting this, Chris. A loaf of the lighter version is cooling in my kitchen now - can't wait to taste it. I made it tonight instead of the following (recipe from Gourmet magazine):

Irish Brown Bread

Whisk together 2c whole wheat flour, 2 c all purpose flour, 1/2 c toasted wheat germ, 2 t salt, 2 t sugar, 1 t baking soda, and 1/2 t cream of tartar. Blend in 1/2 c cold butter until mixture resembles coarse meal. Add 2 c buttermilk, mix until dough forms, and gently knead on floured surface until smooth (using more flour if needed).

Place dough in a buttered 9" round cake pan, score the top lightly, and bake in a 400 degree oven 30-40 min. It will be light brown on top and sound hollow when the bottom is tapped. Cool in the pan 10 minutes, then out of the pan and on a rack one hour.

I cut leftovers into thick slices, wrap in foil and freeze - keeps well up to two months - and pop into a warm oven for awhile to reheat.

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This a picture of the 'lighter' version. I really like the texture the egg adds.
I finally made this bread yesterday, the lighter honey version and using buttermilk. I used a pyrex pan instead of nonstick, though, and despite my having greased the pan fairly well (I thought), part of the bottom stuck to the pan :o . The flavor and texture of the loaf itself were quite acceptable. I added 1/4 cup of currants to the batter and thought that worked well.

The bread was good for dinner, served with an herb-crusted pork loin stuffed with prunes.

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I’m making biscuits tonight. Three questions:

Mktye: What’s the name of that substitution website you mentioned? I promise! I’ll bookmark it five seconds after a reply is posted.

Buttermilk: I don’t keep milk, let alone buttermilk, in the house. I do, however, have non-fat dried milk. Can I “sour” non-fat dried milk with lemon juice or vinegar the same as regular milk?

Angel biscuits: One of the PBS cooking shows used yeast and baking powder & soda for their angel biscuits. I thought angel biscuits were the result of the type of flour used. Has anyone used the yeast and baking soda & powder method with AP flour? How do they compare to the baking soda & powder and Wondra method? Does anyone have a tried-and-true recipe for the yeast variety?

The other interesting tip from this show: roll out the dough 1/3 inch and then fold it over. Cut the biscuits from the “doubled” dough. It'll produce an easily seperated biscuit. But y’all probably knew that already. :blink:

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Angel biscuits: One of the PBS cooking shows used yeast and baking powder & soda for their angel biscuits. I thought angel biscuits were the result of the type of flour used. Has anyone used the yeast and baking soda & powder method with AP flour? How do they compare to the baking soda & powder and Wondra method?

Okay, <deep breath>, at the risk of offending someone: these so-called angel biscuits that use yeast ARE NOT BISCUITS. They're dinner rolls. Y'know what? They taste really, really good, and they're nice and light, but because of the yeast THEY'RE DINNER ROLLS. Yeah, okay, I'm more opinionated than usual about this. If you want biscuits, cut butter into flour mixed with baking powder or soda or cream of tartar BUT NOT YEAST, stir in buttermilk, knead lightly etc etc and you'll have good biscuits.

My mother made these angel biscuit things many times in the last two years of her life, and all of us loved them, but all of us said THESE ARE GREAT DINNER ROLLS.

Seriously: biscuits are quick breads, meaning something other than yeast is providing the leavening.

If you really want to make so-called angel biscuits I will dig the recipe out and post sometime Sunday. They're tres tasty. But they ain't biscuits. They taste very distincly like... dinner rolls.

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I’m making biscuits tonight. Three questions:

Buttermilk: I don’t keep milk, let alone buttermilk, in the house. I do, however, have non-fat dried milk. Can I “sour” non-fat dried milk with lemon juice or vinegar the same as regular milk?

Better yet, keep dried buttermilk on hand. I'm not sure of the shelf life of this. I keep my open cannister in the refrigerator, but I probably should be replacing it at some point.
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Made my first attempt at the no-knead bread and I am absolutely amazed at how good it is. I wish I had a camera because it is gorgeous. Thick, crisp crust with wide open crumb and a nice chew. I noticed that Cook's Illustrated has a version this month that subs beer for some of the water to enhance the flavor. I'm going to give that a shot this weekend.

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Two years ago I vowed to make poolish and finally got around to it this week. I purchased Daniel Leader's Bread Alone before The Bread Baker's Apprentice replaced it in popularity and never tried more than the quick breads before.

I made the Norwegian cracked wheat bread, if in sandwich loaf pans since I cracked my pizza stone recently and don't have willow baskets to help shape boules. I had to substitute a few of the ingredients required by a hardcore advocate of organic flours, such as fully milled rye instead of cracked rye kernels, and a combination of bulgur and farro processed in my spice grinder for the cracked wheat.

Let the poolish (biga) bubble for nearly 10 hours and fermented the dough in the fridge overnight. Squirting cold water into the hot oven twice at the beginning of the baking process served to form the crust.

Quite pleased with the loaf I kept. The flavor isn't as developed as I wanted it to be. However, the somewhat drawn-out process contributed to a crumb that you don't always get w such a large percentage of whole grain flour. Chewy. The cracked farro rolled into the crust is rather cool, too.

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Seriously: biscuits are quick breads, meaning something other than yeast is providing the leavening.
Very funny rant, P. :( Heads up: The January issue of Gourmet features a previously unpublished essay that Edna Lewis wrote on the South and dedicates the rest of the contents to her subject. A recipe for biscuits is included, though I don't think it asks you to make your own leavening agent the way she does.
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I noticed that Cook's Illustrated has a version this month that subs beer for some of the water to enhance the flavor. I'm going to give that a shot this weekend.

Reporting back on the CI variation. It swaps 3 oz of water for beer and a tablespoon of vinegar. They claim that by adding 15 seconds of kneading, you can reduce the sitting time from 18 hours to 8-12 hours. The 18 hours worked better for my schedule so I didn't bother. I did notice a subtle flavor enhancement but since I'm not a beer type it seemed like a waste of most of a beer for only subtle improvement.

I split this batch in half and baked in a 2.5 quart. Much better size for my solo consumption. Second loaf in the freezer.

jparrot -- I tried this as french toast and you are correct, it was great.

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Reporting back on the CI variation. It swaps 3 oz of water for beer and a tablespoon of vinegar. They claim that by adding 15 seconds of kneading, you can reduce the sitting time from 18 hours to 8-12 hours. The 18 hours worked better for my schedule so I didn't bother. I did notice a subtle flavor enhancement but since I'm not a beer type it seemed like a waste of most of a beer for only subtle improvement.
I haven't tried the CI version, but I do like their idea of the parchment paper 'sling' for transferring the bread to the pot. Trying to throw the bread into a hot dutch oven was always a bit tricky. Instead, CI suggests letting the bread rise on a piece of parchment paper in a pan. Then you just transfer the bread along with the parchment paper both into the pot.
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I haven't tried the CI version, but I do like their idea of the parchment paper 'sling' for transferring the bread to the pot. Trying to throw the bread into a hot dutch oven was always a bit tricky. Instead, CI suggests letting the bread rise on a piece of parchment paper in a pan. Then you just transfer the bread along with the parchment paper both into the pot.
It definitely made the transfer easier. I wondered what it would do shapewise because of the inevitable folds of the paper. The loaves just had a few small waves.
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Can anyone direct me to a winning dinner roll recipe. I offered to bring rolls to my in-laws for Thanksgiving. If the angel biscuits are great - that recipe will work too. My preference is for pull apart rolls rather than anything that might be baked in a muffin pan. I have a KitchenAid, bread flour, whole-wheat flour, pizza stone, etc.. Just not sure of which recipe to use and it doesn't look like I'll have time to try one out before Thursday.

Thanks.

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Can anyone direct me to a winning dinner roll recipe. I offered to bring rolls to my in-laws for Thanksgiving. If the angel biscuits are great - that recipe will work too. My preference is for pull apart rolls rather than anything that might be baked in a muffin pan. I have a KitchenAid, bread flour, whole-wheat flour, pizza stone, etc.. Just not sure of which recipe to use and it doesn't look like I'll have time to try one out before Thursday.

Thanks.

Not sure you can get much more award wining than the original Parker House rolls.

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My favorite roll recipe (warning: it is a little fussy):

DINNER ROLLS

Makes ~2 dozen rolls

Because there is so much butter in the dough, it is too difficult to knead by hand or with a food processor (which would heat the dough too much). Although the dough will be very soft, resist the urge to add extra flour since it will result in the rolls being tough.

~3½ cups unbleached, all-purpose flour

2¼ teaspoons (1 package) dry yeast

1½ teaspoons salt

2 tablespoons sugar

1¼ cups milk, warmed

1 large egg, beaten lightly

8 tablespoons (1 stick) unsalted butter, room temperature

In the bowl of the mixer, stir together the 3 cups flour, yeast, salt and sugar. Mix in the milk and egg and beat at low speed with the paddle attachment for 1 minute. Gradually add the butter, increase the speed to medium and beat for 2 minutes, then knead with the dough hook ~5 minutes, adding more flour as necessary to make a very, very soft dough. Cover the bowl with plastic wrap and allow to rise until doubled in size, ~45 minutes.

Preheat the oven to 375 degrees. Lightly oil or line two half-sheet pans with parchment paper.

Turn the dough out onto a lightly-floured work surface and pat into a 9” square. Fold the dough into thirds by folding the upper 3” down and the lower 3” up. Pinch the edges together to seal. Next, using the side of your hand, firmly press an indentation along the length of the dough, then fold and roll the upper sealed edge of dough toward the center indentation, pressing firmly with your fingertips to seal. Pull the upper edges of the dough down over the thick portion to meet the seam, pressing with your fingertips to seal. Repeat this 5 or 6 more times until the dough lengthens and forms a taut, narrow cylinder ~17” long. Dust the dough with flour, then roll the dough seam-side up and pinch firmly to seal. Next, press an indentation into the length of the dough along the seam with the side of your open hand. And repeat as above to form a long, taut cylinder. Gently stretch and roll the dough cylinder until it measures 36” long and is ~2½” wide. Use a bench scraper (or a knife) at a 45 degree angle to the cylinder, cut off one end, then cut triangular-shaped rolls along the dough, alternating the scraper 45-degrees to the right and left. You should get ~24 rolls.

Transfer the rolls to the prepared sheet pans, then cover with lightly-oiled plastic wrap and let the rolls rise until almost doubled, ~30 minutes. Bake the rolls for 15 minutes, rotating the sheets about halfway through the baking. Cool rolls on a rack for at least 5 minutes before serving.

Adapted from an old "Cook's Illustrated" recipe

(I recently made the recipe from this year's CI Nov. issue -- while the crumb and crust were great, I found the flavor a little blah. They were okay for everyday, but not the buttery, special-occasion-type of rolls that I like to serve at Thanksgiving.)

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Every Thanksgiving morning I get up early to start the bread. I don't have a bunch of traditions, but this is one that I really really love. Wherever I go, I bring with me two loaves of Sour Cream Bread from an old James Beard recipe.

After years of scribbling it out for people after a few too many glasses of wine on Thanksgiving night, I finally found someone who has republished it online.

Highly, highly recommended. Makes incredible toast the next day, and might be the best grilled cheese bread ever (with gruyere made on a panini press or Forman grill is sublime).

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I hadn't made the Bittman no-knead bread in a while and decided to make it for Thanksgiving. Instead of going back through my notes and comments on what worked best, etc., I just decided to work from the original recipe. Wednesday I started on it and realized that all of the yeast I had was expired. Some of it was very much expired. There was no way I was going to a grocery store on the afternoon before Thanksgiving, so, I started proofing the yeast I had. I proofed and proofed. None of it did much of anything. Then I discovered that I had a second jar of open bread machine (instant) yeast with the same expiration date as the one I'd already tried. That one gave me a better reaction than any of the other yeast did, so I decided to go with that. After I took some additional yeast from that jar to start my bread, I realized that the proofing yeast was going nuts. It was really reacting, after about 20 minutes. I decided to make a second loaf with the proof, pouring it into a measuring cup and adding warm water to make the 1 5/8 cup total.

The no-knead recipe doesn't call for proofing or for sugar, and I hadn't been so careful in measuring the amounts out (water, yeast, sugar) to proof by the time I got to that point. The first several times I tried, I went by a formula I found online for the proportions. By the time I found something that worked, I have no idea how much I put in of anything. I proceeded anyway with the recipe and baked both loaves yesterday morning. The proofed dough looked better starting out and rose a lot more after the initial 18 hour period. After that point, though, the other batch was better. The non-proofed loaf came out looking gorgeous--better than any loaf of this I've made--so that's what I took to Thanksgiving dinner. We'll try the other loaf tonight. I thought it would make for an interesting comparison.

One funny thing about this is that, while my previous loaves turned out okay in the end, I found them way too liquid to work with handily. I had been putting some whole wheat flour in (I think one cup to 2 cups of AP, but I still haven't checked my notes), and this time did it all with AP flour. This time, the dough was very moist, but I could manage working with it much better. I don't know if having used some ww before has anything to do with the difference or what, but I'm intrigued that going back to the original recipe now produced the best loaf of this I've made. It was perfectly browned, with a crusty crust and a good crumb. It was fabulous. I'll see how the proofed loaf is when I cut it in a few hours.

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The proofed bread is softer, moister, and less crusty than the non-proofed bread. It's much more like white bread than a loaf of artisan bread. (Of the loaf yesterday, our hostess observed: "This is a $6 loaf of bread.")

I have no idea how much of this has to do with the proofing and how much to do with other variables. It tastes fine, but the loaf yesterday was better.

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Offer of fresh yeast!

I used to run around to all the local grocery stores trying to find fresh yeast for the essential heirloom recipes at Christmas time. Finally Shoppers caved and it is no longer available. I am able to order 2 lb. blocks cheaply from one of my purveyors and would be delighted to share if anyone out there would like some this month. I can give you a nice chunk for a dollar if anyone is interested. Just let me know! Happy Holidays!

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Wait--yeast expires?

Ha. I had no idea. I've been using the same box of instant yeast since 2001. It lives at the back of the fridge. Nobody better tell those little yeasties they've expired; they work fine.

I think it's a "best by" or "use by" date. It might still work but will take longer to rise and do what it needs to do. I just used some expired yeast from June that worked fine. The stuff I tried to use from a year ago barely reacted at all, though. I've used old yeast without proofing and gotten bread that didn't rise very much. That's why I check the expired stuff.
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I haven't made bread in an awfully long time, but got the urge the other day-total disaster! I think the flour in the tupperware was White Lily (great for biscuits, not for bread), my yeast was ancient, my bread machine hadn't been dragged out in ages. Dough looked like crap (very thin & slack) but I baked it anyway-finished bread did not rise or really brown. Oh well, out to the compost pile with it...

Not giving up yet, purchased new yeast, some new flours (rye, whole wheat, cornmeal) to store in the freezor, tried to clean up the ancient baking stone in my oven which looks historic, started the starter for pain a l'ancienne (Rustic European Breads from your bread machine) which will sit overnight. Wish me luck...

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Made bread dough last night. Let rise for an hour. Then put it in the fridge to ferment overnight.

Except I forgot to put it in the fridge.

So it ended up sitting out for almost twelve hours before I got it into the chill chest. It was well covered, so drying out wasn't an issue.

My 911 questions is... is this okay? What will this do to the flavor and texture of the bread? Should I start over from scratch?

Thanks in advance.

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My 911 questions is... is this okay? What will this do to the flavor and texture of the bread? Should I start over from scratch?
Remember the hooplah over no-knead bread? The dough sits out on a counter much longer. While that dough probably has a whole lot more water than yours, you should be okay. Not long enough to worry about health issues as long as it's just flour, water, yeast and salt (plus it will bake at high temperatures). You might get a bigger poof factor in the oven, though you could always turn this into a flat bread.
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Remember the hooplah over no-knead bread? The dough sits out on a counter much longer. While that dough probably has a whole lot more water than yours, you should be okay. Not long enough to worry about health issues as long as it's just flour, water, yeast and salt (plus it will bake at high temperatures). You might get a bigger poof factor in the oven, though you could always turn this into a flat bread.
Thanks, Anna. What about the flavor and texture? Won't the yeast have done all kinds of crazy crap to the bread in that time?
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Thanks, Anna. What about the flavor and texture? Won't the yeast have done all kinds of crazy crap to the bread in that time?

Just take a deep breath and remember that refrigeration has only existed for a tiny hiccup in the millenia that people have been making bread.

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Made bread dough last night. Let rise for an hour. Then put it in the fridge to ferment overnight.

Except I forgot to put it in the fridge.

So it ended up sitting out for almost twelve hours before I got it into the chill chest. It was well covered, so drying out wasn't an issue.

My 911 questions is... is this okay? What will this do to the flavor and texture of the bread? Should I start over from scratch?

Thanks in advance.

I've done this, and it's turned out fine. (One reason I wasn't worried was because I'd made a number of loaves of no-knead bread, cf. Anna Blume).

Just figure that more of your "overnight" was devoted to the counter than the refrigerator. It might puff up more than you want in the oven. If you've got another rise out on the counter before baking and it seems to be growing exceptionally, you might want to punch it down and let it rise back up again. In any case, it will probably be fine. No matter how many mistakes I've made (including adding twice as many eggs as the recipe called for yesterday :D ), I can't recall making a loaf of bread that was completely inedible. It's resilient stuff.

You might enjoy this video lecture by Peter Reinhart:

http://www.ted.com/talks/peter_reinhart_on_bread.html

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BTW, what size French oven are people getting the best results in for the "normal" recipe of the Lahey no-knead bread? At 7.25 qt, my LC doufeu is a good size for a double recipe but it's really too large for a single recipe unless I want a broad and flat loaf (and btw, because the lid has cast loop handles, I can crank the oven up to blazing hot without fear of melting any knobs).

Whaddya think about this KitchenAid 4.5 qt?

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I'm making the almost no-knead bread recipe. After about a 15-hour rest, the dough is really, really sticky. I can tell it would absorb a ton of flour at this point, and it's really difficult to handle. Should I avoid adding flour, or is it not a big deal?

thanks!

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I'm making the almost no-knead bread recipe. After about a 15-hour rest, the dough is really, really sticky. I can tell it would absorb a ton of flour at this point, and it's really difficult to handle. Should I avoid adding flour, or is it not a big deal?

I make this a lot. I would not add flour. In fact, I never touch the dough, because it is so sticky. Spray or brush some olive oil on parchment paper. Use a plastic spatula to turn the dough 4 or 5 times (or more if you care too) to get out some air. The dough does not really stick to the plastic, at least not for me. Use the spatula to "pour" the dough onto the parchment paper, which I have resting in another large bowl, and try to shape it the best you can. Spray or brush the top with olive oil and loosely cover with plastic wrap for the second rise. When you are ready to bake, remove the plastic wrap and lift the dough on the parchment paper into whatever you are using to bake it. I preheat the cooking pot to 500 degrees. After it is in the oven I turn the temperature down to 425 and cook for 30 minutes covered, and then uncovered for another 20 to 30 minutes until golden brown. The parchment paper will not burn. When done, pick it up out of the pot by grabbing the paper (make sure you leave enough hanging outside the pot to do so) and slide the bread onto a wire rack to cool. No fuss, no muss, clean hands. Good luck.

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I'm making the almost no-knead bread recipe. After about a 15-hour rest, the dough is really, really sticky. I can tell it would absorb a ton of flour at this point, and it's really difficult to handle. Should I avoid adding flour, or is it not a big deal?

thanks!

You don't want to add flour. The wetter it is, the better it comes out, but it is difficult to handle. (The first time I made it, I spilled half of it on the floor trying to transfer it from one spot to another.) Haven't tried the parchment approach ^ but that looks promising.
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Is there a cooking post-mortems thread? ;)

My no-knead bread came out a flat, heavy, and dense disc. I'd like to figure out what happened so I can get this right in the future. The only things I can think of are that either my yeast was old/dead, or my house was too cold for it to rise properly (for about half the rising time the thermostat was set at 69, for the other half it was set at 66). Does one of these sound more reasonable than the other? Any other ideas?

Thanks...

Dan

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