"Troilus and Cressida" (1602) by William Shakespeare (1564-1616) - A Critical Discussion

[DonRocks]

Act IV, Scene 3

The same. Street before Pandarus' house.

   

[Enter PARIS, TROILUS, AENEAS, DEIPHOBUS, ANTENOR,] [p] and DIOMEDES]

• Paris. It is great morning, and the hour prefix'd 
  Of her delivery to this valiant Greek 
  Comes fast upon. Good my brother Troilus, 
  Tell you the lady what she is to do, 
  And haste her to the purpose.2415

• Troilus. Walk into her house; 
  I'll bring her to the Grecian presently: 
  And to his hand when I deliver her, 
  Think it an altar, and thy brother Troilus 
  A priest there offering to it his own heart.2420

[Exit]

• Paris. I know what 'tis to love; 
  And would, as I shall pity, I could help! 
  Please you walk in, my lords.

[Exeunt]

[DonRocks]

Act IV Scene 3 needs to be its own scene, I suppose, because it has its own setting, and serves as a transition from 4.2 to 4.4, but that's about all there is to say about it unless I'm missing something very subtle. I wonder if, during performance, this is generally played out on the side of the stage.

[DIShGo]

Yes, I could see it being played on the side of the stage. There's not much to discuss here, from what I see. Troilus professes his love. That's about it. I say we move on!

[DonRocks]

Act IV, Scene 4

The same. Pandarus' house.

[Enter PANDARUS and CRESSIDA]

• Pandarus. Be moderate, be moderate.

• Cressida. Why tell you me of moderation? 
  The grief is fine, full, perfect, that I taste, 
  And violenteth in a sense as strong 2430
  As that which causeth it: how can I moderate it? 
  If I could temporize with my affection, 
  Or brew it to a weak and colder palate, 
  The like allayment could I give my grief. 
  My love admits no qualifying dross; 2435
  No more my grief, in such a precious loss.

• Pandarus. Here, here, here he comes. 
  [Enter TROILUS] 
  Ah, sweet ducks!

• Cressida. O Troilus! Troilus!2440

[Embracing him]

• Pandarus. What a pair of spectacles is here! 
  Let me embrace too. 'O heart,' as the goodly saying is, 
  '"”O heart, heavy heart, 
  Why sigh'st thou without breaking? 2445
  where he answers again, 
  'Because thou canst not ease thy smart 
  By friendship nor by speaking.' 
  There was never a truer rhyme. Let us cast away 
  nothing, for we may live to have need of such a 2450
  verse: we see it, we see it. How now, lambs?

• Troilus. Cressid, I love thee in so strain'd a purity, 
  That the bless'd gods, as angry with my fancy, 
  More bright in zeal than the devotion which 
  Cold lips blow to their deities, take thee from me.2455

• Cressida. Have the gods envy?

• Pandarus. Ay, ay, ay, ay; 'tis too plain a case.

• Cressida. And is it true that I must go from Troy?

• Troilus. A hateful truth.

• Cressida. What, and from Troilus too?2460

• Troilus. From Troy and Troilus.

• Cressida. Is it possible?

• Troilus. And suddenly; where injury of chance 
  Puts back leave-taking, justles roughly by 
  All time of pause, rudely beguiles our lips 2465
  Of all rejoindure, forcibly prevents 
  Our lock'd embrasures, strangles our dear vows 
  Even in the birth of our own labouring breath: 
  We two, that with so many thousand sighs 
  Did buy each other, must poorly sell ourselves 2470
  With the rude brevity and discharge of one. 
  Injurious time now with a robber's haste 
  Crams his rich thievery up, he knows not how: 
  As many farewells as be stars in heaven, 
  With distinct breath and consign'd kisses to them, 2475
  He fumbles up into a lose adieu, 
  And scants us with a single famish'd kiss, 
  Distasted with the salt of broken tears.

• Aeneas. [Within] My lord, is the lady ready?

• Troilus. Hark! you are call'd: some say the Genius so 2480
  Cries 'come' to him that instantly must die. 
  Bid them have patience; she shall come anon.

• Pandarus. Where are my tears? rain, to lay this wind, or 
  my heart will be blown up by the root.

[Exit]

• Cressida. I must then to the Grecians?

• Troilus. No remedy.

• Cressida. A woful Cressid 'mongst the merry Greeks! 
  When shall we see again?

• Troilus. Hear me, my love: be thou but true of heart,"”2490

• Cressida. I true! how now! what wicked deem is this?

• Troilus. Nay, we must use expostulation kindly, 
  For it is parting from us: 
  I speak not 'be thou true,' as fearing thee, 
  For I will throw my glove to Death himself, 2495
  That there's no maculation in thy heart: 
  But 'be thou true,' say I, to fashion in 
  My sequent protestation; be thou true, 
  And I will see thee.

• Cressida. O, you shall be exposed, my lord, to dangers 2500
  As infinite as imminent! but I'll be true.

• Troilus. And I'll grow friend with danger. Wear this sleeve.

• Cressida. And you this glove. When shall I see you?

• Troilus. I will corrupt the Grecian sentinels, 
  To give thee nightly visitation. 2505
  But yet be true.

• Cressida. O heavens! 'be true' again!

• Troilus. Hear while I speak it, love: 
  The Grecian youths are full of quality; 
  They're loving, well composed with gifts of nature, 2510
  Flowing and swelling o'er with arts and exercise: 
  How novelty may move, and parts with person, 
  Alas, a kind of godly jealousy"” 
  Which, I beseech you, call a virtuous sin"” 
  Makes me afeard.2515

• Cressida. O heavens! you love me not.

• Troilus. Die I a villain, then! 
  In this I do not call your faith in question 
  So mainly as my merit: I cannot sing, 
  Nor heel the high lavolt, nor sweeten talk, 2520
  Nor play at subtle games; fair virtues all, 
  To which the Grecians are most prompt and pregnant: 
  But I can tell that in each grace of these 
  There lurks a still and dumb-discoursive devil 
  That tempts most cunningly: but be not tempted.2525

• Cressida. Do you think I will?

• Troilus. No. 
  But something may be done that we will not: 
  And sometimes we are devils to ourselves, 
  When we will tempt the frailty of our powers, 2530
  Presuming on their changeful potency.

• Aeneas. [Within] Nay, good my lord,"”

• Troilus. Come, kiss; and let us part.

• Paris. [Within] Brother Troilus!

• Troilus. Good brother, come you hither; 2535
  And bring AEneas and the Grecian with you.

• Cressida. My lord, will you be true?

• Troilus. Who, I? alas, it is my vice, my fault: 
  Whiles others fish with craft for great opinion, 
  I with great truth catch mere simplicity; 2540
  Whilst some with cunning gild their copper crowns, 
  With truth and plainness I do wear mine bare. 
  Fear not my truth: the moral of my wit 
  Is 'plain and true;' there's all the reach of it. 
  [Enter AENEAS, PARIS, ANTENOR, DEIPHOBUS,] 2545
  and DIOMEDES] 
  Welcome, Sir Diomed! here is the lady 
  Which for Antenor we deliver you: 
  At the port, lord, I'll give her to thy hand, 
  And by the way possess thee what she is. 2550
  Entreat her fair; and, by my soul, fair Greek, 
  If e'er thou stand at mercy of my sword, 
  Name Cressida and thy life shall be as safe 
  As Priam is in Ilion.

• Diomedes. Fair Lady Cressid, 2555
  So please you, save the thanks this prince expects: 
  The lustre in your eye, heaven in your cheek, 
  Pleads your fair usage; and to Diomed 
  You shall be mistress, and command him wholly.

• Troilus. Grecian, thou dost not use me courteously, 2560
  To shame the zeal of my petition to thee 
  In praising her: I tell thee, lord of Greece, 
  She is as far high-soaring o'er thy praises 
  As thou unworthy to be call'd her servant. 
  I charge thee use her well, even for my charge; 2565
  For, by the dreadful Pluto, if thou dost not, 
  Though the great bulk Achilles be thy guard, 
  I'll cut thy throat.

• Diomedes. O, be not moved, Prince Troilus: 
  Let me be privileged by my place and message, 2570
  To be a speaker free; when I am hence 
  I'll answer to my lust: and know you, lord, 
  I'll nothing do on charge: to her own worth 
  She shall be prized; but that you say 'be't so,' 
  I'll speak it in my spirit and honour, 'no.'2575

• Troilus. Come, to the port. I'll tell thee, Diomed, 
  This brave shall oft make thee to hide thy head. 
  Lady, give me your hand, and, as we walk, 
  To our own selves bend we our needful talk.

[Exeunt TROILUS, CRESSIDA, and DIOMEDES]

[Trumpet within]

• Paris. Hark! Hector's trumpet.

• Aeneas. How have we spent this morning! 
  The prince must think me tardy and remiss, 
  That sore to ride before him to the field.2585

• Paris. 'Tis Troilus' fault: come, come, to field with him.

• Deiphobus. Let us make ready straight.

• Aeneas. Yea, with a bridegroom's fresh alacrity, 
  Let us address to tend on Hector's heels: 
  The glory of our Troy doth this day lie 2590
  On his fair worth and single chivalry.

[Exeunt]

[DonRocks]

Act IV, Scene 4

The same. Pandarus' house.

[Enter PANDARUS and CRESSIDA]

• Pandarus. Be moderate, be moderate.

• Cressida. Why tell you me of moderation? 
  The grief is fine, full, perfect, that I taste, 
  And violenteth in a sense as strong 2430
  As that which causeth it: how can I moderate it? 
  If I could temporize with my affection, 
  Or brew it to a weak and colder palate, 
  The like allayment could I give my grief. 
  My love admits no qualifying dross; 2435
  No more my grief, in such a precious loss.

• Pandarus. Here, here, here he comes. 
  [Enter TROILUS] 
  Ah, sweet ducks!

• Cressida. O Troilus! Troilus!2440

[Embracing him]

• Pandarus. What a pair of spectacles is here! 
  Let me embrace too. 'O heart,' as the goodly saying is, 
  '"”O heart, heavy heart, 
  Why sigh'st thou without breaking? 2445
  where he answers again, 
  'Because thou canst not ease thy smart 
  By friendship nor by speaking.' 
  There was never a truer rhyme. Let us cast away 
  nothing, for we may live to have need of such a 2450
  verse: we see it, we see it. How now, lambs?

• Troilus. Cressid, I love thee in so strain'd a purity, 
  That the bless'd gods, as angry with my fancy, 
  More bright in zeal than the devotion which 
  Cold lips blow to their deities, take thee from me.2455

• Cressida. Have the gods envy?

• Pandarus. Ay, ay, ay, ay; 'tis too plain a case.

• Cressida. And is it true that I must go from Troy?

• Troilus. A hateful truth.

• Cressida. What, and from Troilus too?2460

• Troilus. From Troy and Troilus.

• Cressida. Is it possible?

• Troilus. And suddenly; where injury of chance 
  Puts back leave-taking, justles roughly by 
  All time of pause, rudely beguiles our lips 2465
  Of all rejoindure, forcibly prevents 
  Our lock'd embrasures, strangles our dear vows 
  Even in the birth of our own labouring breath: 
  We two, that with so many thousand sighs 
  Did buy each other, must poorly sell ourselves 2470
  With the rude brevity and discharge of one. 
  Injurious time now with a robber's haste 
  Crams his rich thievery up, he knows not how: 
  As many farewells as be stars in heaven, 
  With distinct breath and consign'd kisses to them, 2475
  He fumbles up into a lose adieu, 
  And scants us with a single famish'd kiss, 
  Distasted with the salt of broken tears.

• Aeneas. [Within] My lord, is the lady ready?

• Troilus. Hark! you are call'd: some say the Genius so 2480
  Cries 'come' to him that instantly must die. 
  Bid them have patience; she shall come anon.

• Pandarus. Where are my tears? rain, to lay this wind, or 
  my heart will be blown up by the root.

[Exit]

• Cressida. I must then to the Grecians?

• Troilus. No remedy.

• Cressida. A woful Cressid 'mongst the merry Greeks! 
  When shall we see again?

• Troilus. Hear me, my love: be thou but true of heart,"”2490

• Cressida. I true! how now! what wicked deem is this?

• Troilus. Nay, we must use expostulation kindly, 
  For it is parting from us: 
  I speak not 'be thou true,' as fearing thee, 
  For I will throw my glove to Death himself, 2495
  That there's no maculation in thy heart: 
  But 'be thou true,' say I, to fashion in 
  My sequent protestation; be thou true, 
  And I will see thee.

• Cressida. O, you shall be exposed, my lord, to dangers 2500
  As infinite as imminent! but I'll be true.

• Troilus. And I'll grow friend with danger. Wear this sleeve.

• Cressida. And you this glove. When shall I see you?

• Troilus. I will corrupt the Grecian sentinels, 
  To give thee nightly visitation. 2505
  But yet be true.

• Cressida. O heavens! 'be true' again!

• Troilus. Hear while I speak it, love: 
  The Grecian youths are full of quality; 
  They're loving, well composed with gifts of nature, 2510
  Flowing and swelling o'er with arts and exercise: 
  How novelty may move, and parts with person, 
  Alas, a kind of godly jealousy"” 
  Which, I beseech you, call a virtuous sin"” 
  Makes me afeard.2515

• Cressida. O heavens! you love me not.

• Troilus. Die I a villain, then! 
  In this I do not call your faith in question 
  So mainly as my merit: I cannot sing, 
  Nor heel the high lavolt, nor sweeten talk, 2520
  Nor play at subtle games; fair virtues all, 
  To which the Grecians are most prompt and pregnant: 
  But I can tell that in each grace of these 
  There lurks a still and dumb-discoursive devil 
  That tempts most cunningly: but be not tempted.2525

• Cressida. Do you think I will?

• Troilus. No. 
  But something may be done that we will not: 
  And sometimes we are devils to ourselves, 
  When we will tempt the frailty of our powers, 2530
  Presuming on their changeful potency.

• Aeneas. [Within] Nay, good my lord,"”

• Troilus. Come, kiss; and let us part.

• Paris. [Within] Brother Troilus!

• Troilus. Good brother, come you hither; 2535
  And bring AEneas and the Grecian with you.

• Cressida. My lord, will you be true?

• Troilus. Who, I? alas, it is my vice, my fault: 
  Whiles others fish with craft for great opinion, 
  I with great truth catch mere simplicity; 2540
  Whilst some with cunning gild their copper crowns, 
  With truth and plainness I do wear mine bare. 
  Fear not my truth: the moral of my wit 
  Is 'plain and true;' there's all the reach of it. 
  [Enter AENEAS, PARIS, ANTENOR, DEIPHOBUS,] 2545
  and DIOMEDES] 
  Welcome, Sir Diomed! here is the lady 
  Which for Antenor we deliver you: 
  At the port, lord, I'll give her to thy hand, 
  And by the way possess thee what she is. 2550
  Entreat her fair; and, by my soul, fair Greek, 
  If e'er thou stand at mercy of my sword, 
  Name Cressida and thy life shall be as safe 
  As Priam is in Ilion.

• Diomedes. Fair Lady Cressid, 2555
  So please you, save the thanks this prince expects: 
  The lustre in your eye, heaven in your cheek, 
  Pleads your fair usage; and to Diomed 
  You shall be mistress, and command him wholly.

• Troilus. Grecian, thou dost not use me courteously, 2560
  To shame the zeal of my petition to thee 
  In praising her: I tell thee, lord of Greece, 
  She is as far high-soaring o'er thy praises 
  As thou unworthy to be call'd her servant. 
  I charge thee use her well, even for my charge; 2565
  For, by the dreadful Pluto, if thou dost not, 
  Though the great bulk Achilles be thy guard, 
  I'll cut thy throat.

• Diomedes. O, be not moved, Prince Troilus: 
  Let me be privileged by my place and message, 2570
  To be a speaker free; when I am hence 
  I'll answer to my lust: and know you, lord, 
  I'll nothing do on charge: to her own worth 
  She shall be prized; but that you say 'be't so,' 
  I'll speak it in my spirit and honour, 'no.'2575

• Troilus. Come, to the port. I'll tell thee, Diomed, 
  This brave shall oft make thee to hide thy head. 
  Lady, give me your hand, and, as we walk, 
  To our own selves bend we our needful talk.

[Exeunt TROILUS, CRESSIDA, and DIOMEDES]

[Trumpet within]

• Paris. Hark! Hector's trumpet.

• Aeneas. How have we spent this morning! 
  The prince must think me tardy and remiss, 
  That sore to ride before him to the field.2585

• Paris. 'Tis Troilus' fault: come, come, to field with him.

• Deiphobus. Let us make ready straight.

• Aeneas. Yea, with a bridegroom's fresh alacrity, 
  Let us address to tend on Hector's heels: 
  The glory of our Troy doth this day lie 2590
  On his fair worth and single chivalry.

[Exeunt]

[DonRocks]

Oft times in Shakespeare, I'll read a passage and understand the gist of it, but if you asked me to parse individual words or phrases, I'd have a devil of a time. Such is the case with the five-line passage by Diomedes in 2555-2559. He clearly says something to hack Troilus off, but I'm not sure exactly what it is that he said. I get the overall meaning, but I couldn't parse the words on first reading. Would anyone like to take a stab at it?

This act is clearly a mixture of foreshadowing and character development (Troilus is the suspicious type (justifiably, as the Greeks owe him nothing, and Troilus' relationship with Cressida is founded upon soft earth)).

[DIShGo]

Yes, there is a lot of foreshadowing here, but why is Troilus so mistrusting of Cressida? Is he an insecure person by nature, or is it because he realizes that their love is so tenuous?

I can't parse the words line by line in the exchange between Diomedes and Troilus, but it is clear, when Troulis asks Diomedes to treat Cressida honorably, Diomedes discounts his request. From 2555 to 2559, he ignores Troilus and speaks directly to Cressida. Diomedes praises her, and tells her he will treat her well because he wants to, and, consequently, she will give herself to him. It is as if he turned to Troilus and slapped him across the face.

Troilus understandably gets angry, and his reply can be boiled down to, "Touch her and I will slit your throat." Again, Diomedes discounts his passionate speech. He answers, essentially, "Calm down, Troilus. When the time comes, I will do what I want with her, based on my feelings for her, and not because of anything you say."

Diomedes is extremely dismissive of Troilus, and Troilus is powerless to do anything about it.

[DonRocks]

Yes, there is a lot of foreshadowing here, but why is Troilus so mistrusting of Cressida? Is he an insecure person by nature, or is it because he realizes that their love is so tenuous?

You'll find out in Act 4 Scene 5 what a bunch of sluts the Greeks are.

(And I'm talking the men - in the scene where they're all trying to steal their cheap little kisses from "Fair Cressid." Think about it - they've been camped out on Troy for goodness-knows-how-long, and all of a sudden a hot woman is in their midst.)

[DonRocks]

Act IV, Scene 5

The Grecian camp. Lists set out.

 

[Enter AJAX, armed; AGAMEMNON, ACHILLES, PATROCLUS,] [p]MENELAUS, ULYSSES, NESTOR, and others]

• Agamemnon. Here art thou in appointment fresh and fair, 2595
  Anticipating time with starting courage. 
  Give with thy trumpet a loud note to Troy, 
  Thou dreadful Ajax; that the appalled air 
  May pierce the head of the great combatant 
  And hale him hither.2600

• Ajax. Thou, trumpet, there's my purse. 
  Now crack thy lungs, and split thy brazen pipe: 
  Blow, villain, till thy sphered bias cheek 
  Outswell the colic of puff'd Aquilon: 
  Come, stretch thy chest and let thy eyes spout blood; 2605
  Thou blow'st for Hector.

[Trumpet sounds]

• Ulysses. No trumpet answers.

• Achilles. 'Tis but early days.

• Agamemnon. Is not yond Diomed, with Calchas' daughter?2610

• Ulysses. 'Tis he, I ken the manner of his gait; 
  He rises on the toe: that spirit of his 
  In aspiration lifts him from the earth.

[Enter DIOMEDES, with CRESSIDA]

• Agamemnon. Is this the Lady Cressid?2615

• Diomedes. Even she.

• Agamemnon. Most dearly welcome to the Greeks, sweet lady.

• Nestor. Our general doth salute you with a kiss.

• Ulysses. Yet is the kindness but particular; 
  'Twere better she were kiss'd in general.2620

• Nestor. And very courtly counsel: I'll begin. 
  So much for Nestor.

• Achilles. I'll take what winter from your lips, fair lady: 
  Achilles bids you welcome.

• Menelaus. I had good argument for kissing once.2625

• Patroclus. But that's no argument for kissing now; 
  For this popp'd Paris in his hardiment, 
  And parted thus you and your argument.

• Ulysses. O deadly gall, and theme of all our scorns! 
  For which we lose our heads to gild his horns.2630

• Patroclus. The first was Menelaus' kiss; this, mine: 
  Patroclus kisses you.

• Menelaus. O, this is trim!

• Patroclus. Paris and I kiss evermore for him.

• Menelaus. I'll have my kiss, sir. Lady, by your leave.2635

• Cressida. In kissing, do you render or receive?

• Patroclus. Both take and give.

• Cressida. I'll make my match to live, 
  The kiss you take is better than you give; 
  Therefore no kiss.2640

• Menelaus. I'll give you boot, I'll give you three for one.

• Cressida. You're an odd man; give even or give none.

• Menelaus. An odd man, lady! every man is odd.

• Cressida. No, Paris is not; for you know 'tis true, 
  That you are odd, and he is even with you.2645

• Menelaus. You fillip me o' the head.

• Cressida. No, I'll be sworn.

• Ulysses. It were no match, your nail against his horn. 
  May I, sweet lady, beg a kiss of you?

• Cressida. You may.2650

• Ulysses. I do desire it.

• Cressida. Why, beg, then.

• Ulysses. Why then for Venus' sake, give me a kiss, 
  When Helen is a maid again, and his.

• Cressida. I am your debtor, claim it when 'tis due.2655

• Ulysses. Never's my day, and then a kiss of you.

• Diomedes. Lady, a word: I'll bring you to your father.

[Exit with CRESSIDA]

• Nestor. A woman of quick sense.

• Ulysses. Fie, fie upon her! 2660
  There's language in her eye, her cheek, her lip, 
  Nay, her foot speaks; her wanton spirits look out 
  At every joint and motive of her body. 
  O, these encounterers, so glib of tongue, 
  That give accosting welcome ere it comes, 2665
  And wide unclasp the tables of their thoughts 
  To every ticklish reader! set them down 
  For sluttish spoils of opportunity 
  And daughters of the game.

[Trumpet within]

• All. The Trojans' trumpet.

• Agamemnon. Yonder comes the troop. 
  [Enter HECTOR, armed; AENEAS, TROILUS, and other] 
  Trojans, with Attendants]

• Aeneas. Hail, all you state of Greece! what shall be done 2675
  To him that victory commands? or do you purpose 
  A victor shall be known? will you the knights 
  Shall to the edge of all extremity 
  Pursue each other, or shall be divided 
  By any voice or order of the field? 2680
  Hector bade ask.

• Agamemnon. Which way would Hector have it?

• Aeneas. He cares not; he'll obey conditions.

• Achilles. 'Tis done like Hector; but securely done, 
  A little proudly, and great deal misprizing 2685
  The knight opposed.

• Aeneas. If not Achilles, sir, 
  What is your name?

• Achilles. If not Achilles, nothing.

• Aeneas. Therefore Achilles: but, whate'er, know this: 2690
  In the extremity of great and little, 
  Valour and pride excel themselves in Hector; 
  The one almost as infinite as all, 
  The other blank as nothing. Weigh him well, 
  And that which looks like pride is courtesy. 2695
  This Ajax is half made of Hector's blood: 
  In love whereof, half Hector stays at home; 
  Half heart, half hand, half Hector comes to seek 
  This blended knight, half Trojan and half Greek.

• Achilles. A maiden battle, then? O, I perceive you.2700

[Re-enter DIOMEDES]

• Agamemnon. Here is Sir Diomed. Go, gentle knight, 
  Stand by our Ajax: as you and Lord AEneas 
  Consent upon the order of their fight, 
  So be it; either to the uttermost, 2705
  Or else a breath: the combatants being kin 
  Half stints their strife before their strokes begin.

[AJAX and HECTOR enter the lists]

• Ulysses. They are opposed already.

• Agamemnon. What Trojan is that same that looks so heavy?2710

• Ulysses. The youngest son of Priam, a true knight, 
  Not yet mature, yet matchless, firm of word, 
  Speaking in deeds and deedless in his tongue; 
  Not soon provoked nor being provoked soon calm'd: 
  His heart and hand both open and both free; 2715
  For what he has he gives, what thinks he shows; 
  Yet gives he not till judgment guide his bounty, 
  Nor dignifies an impure thought with breath; 
  Manly as Hector, but more dangerous; 
  For Hector in his blaze of wrath subscribes 2720
  To tender objects, but he in heat of action 
  Is more vindicative than jealous love: 
  They call him Troilus, and on him erect 
  A second hope, as fairly built as Hector. 
  Thus says AEneas; one that knows the youth 2725
  Even to his inches, and with private soul 
  Did in great Ilion thus translate him to me.

[Alarum. Hector and Ajax fight]

• Agamemnon. They are in action.

• Nestor. Now, Ajax, hold thine own!2730

• Troilus. Hector, thou sleep'st; 
  Awake thee!

• Agamemnon. His blows are well disposed: there, Ajax!

• Diomedes. You must no more.

[Trumpets cease]

• Aeneas. Princes, enough, so please you.

• Ajax. I am not warm yet; let us fight again.

• Diomedes. As Hector pleases.

• Hector. Why, then will I no more: 
  Thou art, great lord, my father's sister's son, 2740
  A cousin-german to great Priam's seed; 
  The obligation of our blood forbids 
  A gory emulation 'twixt us twain: 
  Were thy commixtion Greek and Trojan so 
  That thou couldst say 'This hand is Grecian all, 2745
  And this is Trojan; the sinews of this leg 
  All Greek, and this all Troy; my mother's blood 
  Runs on the dexter cheek, and this sinister 
  Bounds in my father's;' by Jove multipotent, 
  Thou shouldst not bear from me a Greekish member 2750
  Wherein my sword had not impressure made 
  Of our rank feud: but the just gods gainsay 
  That any drop thou borrow'dst from thy mother, 
  My sacred aunt, should by my mortal sword 
  Be drain'd! Let me embrace thee, Ajax: 2755
  By him that thunders, thou hast lusty arms; 
  Hector would have them fall upon him thus: 
  Cousin, all honour to thee!

• Ajax. I thank thee, Hector 
  Thou art too gentle and too free a man: 2760
  I came to kill thee, cousin, and bear hence 
  A great addition earned in thy death.

• Hector. Not Neoptolemus so mirable, 
  On whose bright crest Fame with her loud'st Oyes 
  Cries 'This is he,' could promise to himself 2765
  A thought of added honour torn from Hector.

• Aeneas. There is expectance here from both the sides, 
  What further you will do.

• Hector. We'll answer it; 
  The issue is embracement: Ajax, farewell.2770

• Ajax. If I might in entreaties find success"” 
  As seld I have the chance"”I would desire 
  My famous cousin to our Grecian tents.

• Diomedes. 'Tis Agamemnon's wish, and great Achilles 
  Doth long to see unarm'd the valiant Hector.2775

• Hector. AEneas, call my brother Troilus to me, 
  And signify this loving interview 
  To the expecters of our Trojan part; 
  Desire them home. Give me thy hand, my cousin; 
  I will go eat with thee and see your knights.2780

• Ajax. Great Agamemnon comes to meet us here.

• Hector. The worthiest of them tell me name by name; 
  But for Achilles, mine own searching eyes 
  Shall find him by his large and portly size.

• Agamemnon. Worthy of arms! as welcome as to one 2785
  That would be rid of such an enemy; 
  But that's no welcome: understand more clear, 
  What's past and what's to come is strew'd with husks 
  And formless ruin of oblivion; 
  But in this extant moment, faith and troth, 2790
  Strain'd purely from all hollow bias-drawing, 
  Bids thee, with most divine integrity, 
  From heart of very heart, great Hector, welcome.

• Hector. I thank thee, most imperious Agamemnon.

• Agamemnon. [To TROILUS] My well-famed lord of Troy, no 2795
  less to you.

• Menelaus. Let me confirm my princely brother's greeting: 
  You brace of warlike brothers, welcome hither.

• Hector. Who must we answer?

• Aeneas. The noble Menelaus.2800

• Hector. O, you, my lord? by Mars his gauntlet, thanks! 
  Mock not, that I affect the untraded oath; 
  Your quondam wife swears still by Venus' glove: 
  She's well, but bade me not commend her to you.

• Menelaus. Name her not now, sir; she's a deadly theme.2805

• Hector. O, pardon; I offend.

• Nestor. I have, thou gallant Trojan, seen thee oft 
  Labouring for destiny make cruel way 
  Through ranks of Greekish youth, and I have seen thee, 
  As hot as Perseus, spur thy Phrygian steed, 2810
  Despising many forfeits and subduements, 
  When thou hast hung thy advanced sword i' the air, 
  Not letting it decline on the declined, 
  That I have said to some my standers by 
  'Lo, Jupiter is yonder, dealing life!' 2815
  And I have seen thee pause and take thy breath, 
  When that a ring of Greeks have hemm'd thee in, 
  Like an Olympian wrestling: this have I seen; 
  But this thy countenance, still lock'd in steel, 
  I never saw till now. I knew thy grandsire, 2820
  And once fought with him: he was a soldier good; 
  But, by great Mars, the captain of us all, 
  Never saw like thee. Let an old man embrace thee; 
  And, worthy warrior, welcome to our tents.

• Aeneas. 'Tis the old Nestor.2825

• Hector. Let me embrace thee, good old chronicle, 
  That hast so long walk'd hand in hand with time: 
  Most reverend Nestor, I am glad to clasp thee.

• Nestor. I would my arms could match thee in contention, 
  As they contend with thee in courtesy.2830

• Hector. I would they could.

• Nestor. Ha! 
  By this white beard, I'ld fight with thee to-morrow. 
  Well, welcome, welcome! I have seen the time.

• Ulysses. I wonder now how yonder city stands 2835
  When we have here her base and pillar by us.

• Hector. I know your favour, Lord Ulysses, well. 
  Ah, sir, there's many a Greek and Trojan dead, 
  Since first I saw yourself and Diomed 
  In Ilion, on your Greekish embassy.2840

• Ulysses. Sir, I foretold you then what would ensue: 
  My prophecy is but half his journey yet; 
  For yonder walls, that pertly front your town, 
  Yond towers, whose wanton tops do buss the clouds, 
  Must kiss their own feet.2845

• Hector. I must not believe you: 
  There they stand yet, and modestly I think, 
  The fall of every Phrygian stone will cost 
  A drop of Grecian blood: the end crowns all, 
  And that old common arbitrator, Time, 2850
  Will one day end it.

• Ulysses. So to him we leave it. 
  Most gentle and most valiant Hector, welcome: 
  After the general, I beseech you next 
  To feast with me and see me at my tent.2855

• Achilles. I shall forestall thee, Lord Ulysses, thou! 
  Now, Hector, I have fed mine eyes on thee; 
  I have with exact view perused thee, Hector, 
  And quoted joint by joint.

• Hector. Is this Achilles?2860

• Achilles. I am Achilles.

• Hector. Stand fair, I pray thee: let me look on thee.

• Achilles. Behold thy fill.

• Hector. Nay, I have done already.

• Achilles. Thou art too brief: I will the second time, 2865
  As I would buy thee, view thee limb by limb.

• Hector. O, like a book of sport thou'lt read me o'er; 
  But there's more in me than thou understand'st. 
  Why dost thou so oppress me with thine eye?

• Achilles. Tell me, you heavens, in which part of his body 2870
  Shall I destroy him? whether there, or there, or there? 
  That I may give the local wound a name 
  And make distinct the very breach whereout 
  Hector's great spirit flew: answer me, heavens!

• Hector. It would discredit the blest gods, proud man, 2875
  To answer such a question: stand again: 
  Think'st thou to catch my life so pleasantly 
  As to prenominate in nice conjecture 
  Where thou wilt hit me dead?

• Achilles. I tell thee, yea.2880

• Hector. Wert thou an oracle to tell me so, 
  I'd not believe thee. Henceforth guard thee well; 
  For I'll not kill thee there, nor there, nor there; 
  But, by the forge that stithied Mars his helm, 
  I'll kill thee every where, yea, o'er and o'er. 2885
  You wisest Grecians, pardon me this brag; 
  His insolence draws folly from my lips; 
  But I'll endeavour deeds to match these words, 
  Or may I never"”

• Ajax. Do not chafe thee, cousin: 2890
  And you, Achilles, let these threats alone, 
  Till accident or purpose bring you to't: 
  You may have every day enough of Hector 
  If you have stomach; the general state, I fear, 
  Can scarce entreat you to be odd with him.2895

• Hector. I pray you, let us see you in the field: 
  We have had pelting wars, since you refused 
  The Grecians' cause.

• Achilles. Dost thou entreat me, Hector? 
  To-morrow do I meet thee, fell as death; 2900
  To-night all friends.

• Hector. Thy hand upon that match.

• Agamemnon. First, all you peers of Greece, go to my tent; 
  There in the full convive we: afterwards, 
  As Hector's leisure and your bounties shall 2905
  Concur together, severally entreat him. 
  Beat loud the tabourines, let the trumpets blow, 
  That this great soldier may his welcome know.

[Exeunt all except TROILUS and ULYSSES]

• Troilus. My Lord Ulysses, tell me, I beseech you, 2910
  In what place of the field doth Calchas keep?

• Ulysses. At Menelaus' tent, most princely Troilus: 
  There Diomed doth feast with him to-night; 
  Who neither looks upon the heaven nor earth, 
  But gives all gaze and bent of amorous view 2915
  On the fair Cressid.

• Troilus. Shall sweet lord, be bound to you so much, 
  After we part from Agamemnon's tent, 
  To bring me thither?

• Ulysses. You shall command me, sir. 2920
  As gentle tell me, of what honour was 
  This Cressida in Troy? Had she no lover there 
  That wails her absence?

• Troilus. O, sir, to such as boasting show their scars 
  A mock is due. Will you walk on, my lord? 2925
  She was beloved, she loved; she is, and doth: 
  But still sweet love is food for fortune's tooth.

[Exeunt]

[DonRocks]

I hope that in the future - it doesn't matter when - others will read and comment on this play. In the interim, it looks like it's me and DIShGo (which is fine).

There's a reason why Troilus and Cressida is so obscure: It isn't all that good. Years ago, I embarked on a chronological reading of Shakespeare's plays, starting with his first: Henry VI, Part I. I simply could not believe anything penned by the hand of Shakespeare could be so downright *bad*, and wrote it off to a youthful failure on his part, being as sure as sure can be that nothing Shakespeare would ever write after Henry VI, Part I could be so downright awful.

Then, I read Henry VI, Part II.

In the course of these first two plays, things went from bad, to so unbelievably bad that one wonders how The Bard got a third chance. These plays aren't just bad "for Shakespeare"; they're bad on absolute terms.

Troilus and Cressida is nowhere near as bad as these two calamities, but it is indeed one of Shakespeare's weakest efforts, and borders on being a failure. Many, many people have never even heard of Troilus and Cressida; compare and contrast with Julius Caesar, Hamlet, Macbeth, Romeo and Juliet, King Lear, etc., which *everyone* has heard of because they're *great*, and have withstood the test of time.

Nevertheless, Troiilus and Cressida *is* Shakespeare, and that alone is enough to make it important enough not to be a waste of effort to read. I hope others will delve into it and converse with us here in the future - I love seeing DIShGo's comments, short though they may be, and others' would be equally as welcome.

Act IV Scene 5 is a fairly long scene, but it's pretty well crammed full of meat, *finally* co-mingling the two previously disparate themes of 1) the war and 2) the romance - a welcome and long overdue melange. The kissing scene was amusing, but also lets the reader know that Troilus is essentially hosed, and Diomedes has his lustful eyes fixed on fair Cressida (who's eating this attention up).

Regarding the fight scenes, I keep saying to myself, "Get on with it!" Stop calling your enemies "gentle and fair blah-blah-blah and start swinging your swords, damn it!" In King Lear, they gouged some guy's eye out. Now *that* is good, old-fashioned Grand Guignol which is sorely lacking from these effete WINOs (Warriors In Name Only).

[porcupine]

There's a reason why Troilus and Cressida is so obscure: It isn't all that good

In the hands of a talented theater company, it can be good, but never great.  But that's always a problem I've had trying to read scripts as literature.

[DonRocks]

In the hands of a talented theater company, it can be good, but never great.  But that's always a problem I've had trying to read scripts as literature.

porcupine, I don't mean to doubt you, but I can't believe you've never read a play you thought was great. Really?

Anyway, back to my original point, I remember you saying this was one of your favorite Shakespeares - I assume you had a good experience with it when you were younger. Your opinions would be *most* welcome, and a pleasure to read.

[DIShGo]

I told a man who runs a Shakespeare theatre company that I was reading "Troilus and Cressida," and he replied, "Why?"

While I don't think it is the worst thing I have read, it is, at times, tedious. All of the war "talk" in this scene is the perfect example. I had to reread it because the first time I found myself skimming, looking for some real action to start.

The kissing part, on the other hand, is amusing. Defining the genre of this play is one of the great debates surrounding it. While it is called a tragedy, it also has been considered a comedy and a history.  For me, the comedy stands out, while the tragic bits are lacking. At least they have been up to this point.

[DonRocks]

While it is called a tragedy, it also has been considered a comedy and a history.  For me, the comedy stands out, while the tragic bits are lacking. At least they have been up to this point.

I don't think this is generally categorized as a tragedy, comedy, *or* history; it's usually lumped in with the category called "Problem Plays."

[DIShGo]

I don't think this is generally categorized as a tragedy, comedy, *or* history; it's usually lumped in with the category called "Problem Plays."

Yes, I have heard it called that, too, which essentially means after being labeled a comedy, a tragedy and history and a satire, it was decided that it is really none of these. It also has been called a dark comedy, which I think is fitting.

I was surprised at how quickly Cressida began flirting with the Greeks. I thought she would at least play coy for a little while, but she dove right in.

I read that Shakespeare presents Cressida more harshly than Chaucer did in "Troilus and Criseyde," the poem on which the play is based. In Chaucer's version, she is portrayed as a more sympathetic figure.

I think the kissing scene is a good example of how seeing the play rather than reading it would add a great deal. The expression on the face of the actor or actress playing Cressida would convey whether she feels she is being abused and is going along to make the best of a bad situation, or if she is truly enjoying all of the attention. It is difficult to discern from only reading the play.

[DonRocks]

Act V, Scene 1

The Grecian camp. Before Achilles' tent.

[Enter ACHILLES and PATROCLUS]

• Achilles. I'll heat his blood with Greekish wine to-night, 2930
  Which with my scimitar I'll cool to-morrow. 
  Patroclus, let us feast him to the height.

• Patroclus. Here comes Thersites.

[Enter THERSITES]

• Achilles. How now, thou core of envy! 2935
  Thou crusty batch of nature, what's the news?

• Thersites. Why, thou picture of what thou seemest, and idol 
  of idiot worshippers, here's a letter for thee.

• Achilles. From whence, fragment?

• Thersites. Why, thou full dish of fool, from Troy.2940

• Patroclus. Who keeps the tent now?

• Thersites. The surgeon's box, or the patient's wound.

• Patroclus. Well said, adversity! and what need these tricks?

• Thersites. Prithee, be silent, boy; I profit not by thy talk: 
  thou art thought to be Achilles' male varlet.2945

• Patroclus. Male varlet, you rogue! what's that?

• Thersites. Why, his masculine whore. Now, the rotten diseases 
  of the south, the guts-griping, ruptures, catarrhs, 
  loads o' gravel i' the back, lethargies, cold 
  palsies, raw eyes, dirt-rotten livers, wheezing 2950
  lungs, bladders full of imposthume, sciaticas, 
  limekilns i' the palm, incurable bone-ache, and the 
  rivelled fee-simple of the tetter, take and take 
  again such preposterous discoveries!

• Patroclus. Why thou damnable box of envy, thou, what meanest 2955
  thou to curse thus?

• Thersites. Do I curse thee?

• Patroclus. Why no, you ruinous butt, you whoreson 
  indistinguishable cur, no.

• Thersites. No! why art thou then exasperate, thou idle 2960
  immaterial skein of sleave-silk, thou green sarcenet 
  flap for a sore eye, thou tassel of a prodigal's 
  purse, thou? Ah, how the poor world is pestered 
  with such waterflies, diminutives of nature!

• Patroclus. Out, gall!2965

• Thersites. Finch-egg!

• Achilles. My sweet Patroclus, I am thwarted quite 
  From my great purpose in to-morrow's battle. 
  Here is a letter from Queen Hecuba, 
  A token from her daughter, my fair love, 2970
  Both taxing me and gaging me to keep 
  An oath that I have sworn. I will not break it: 
  Fall Greeks; fail fame; honour or go or stay; 
  My major vow lies here, this I'll obey. 
  Come, come, Thersites, help to trim my tent: 2975
  This night in banqueting must all be spent. 
  Away, Patroclus!

[Exeunt ACHILLES and PATROCLUS]

• Thersites. With too much blood and too little brain, these two 
  may run mad; but, if with too much brain and too 2980
  little blood they do, I'll be a curer of madmen. 
  Here's Agamemnon, an honest fellow enough and one 
  that loves quails; but he has not so much brain as 
  earwax: and the goodly transformation of Jupiter 
  there, his brother, the bull,"”the primitive statue, 2985
  and oblique memorial of cuckolds; a thrifty 
  shoeing-horn in a chain, hanging at his brother's 
  leg,"”to what form but that he is, should wit larded 
  with malice and malice forced with wit turn him to? 
  To an ass, were nothing; he is both ass and ox: to 2990
  an ox, were nothing; he is both ox and ass. To be a 
  dog, a mule, a cat, a fitchew, a toad, a lizard, an 
  owl, a puttock, or a herring without a roe, I would 
  not care; but to be Menelaus, I would conspire 
  against destiny. Ask me not, what I would be, if I 2995
  were not Thersites; for I care not to be the louse 
  of a lazar, so I were not Menelaus! Hey-day! 
  spirits and fires! 
  [Enter HECTOR, TROILUS, AJAX, AGAMEMNON, ULYSSES,] 
  NESTOR, MENELAUS, and DIOMEDES, with lights]3000

• Agamemnon. We go wrong, we go wrong.

• Ajax. No, yonder 'tis; 
  There, where we see the lights.

• Hector. I trouble you.

• Ajax. No, not a whit.3005

• Ulysses. Here comes himself to guide you.

[Re-enter ACHILLES]

• Achilles. Welcome, brave Hector; welcome, princes all.

• Agamemnon. So now, fair prince of Troy, I bid good night. 
  Ajax commands the guard to tend on you.3010

• Hector. Thanks and good night to the Greeks' general.

• Menelaus. Good night, my lord.

• Hector. Good night, sweet lord Menelaus.

• Thersites. Sweet draught: 'sweet' quoth 'a! sweet sink, 
  sweet sewer.3015

• Achilles. Good night and welcome, both at once, to those 
  That go or tarry.

• Agamemnon. Good night.

[Exeunt AGAMEMNON and MENELAUS]

• Achilles. Old Nestor tarries; and you too, Diomed, 3020
  Keep Hector company an hour or two.

• Diomedes. I cannot, lord; I have important business, 
  The tide whereof is now. Good night, great Hector.

• Hector. Give me your hand.

• Ulysses. [Aside to TROILUS] Follow his torch; he goes to 3025
  Calchas' tent: 
  I'll keep you company.

• Troilus. Sweet sir, you honour me.

• Hector. And so, good night.

[Exit DIOMEDES; ULYSSES and TROILUS following]

• Achilles. Come, come, enter my tent.

[Exeunt ACHILLES, HECTOR, AJAX, and NESTOR]

• Thersites. That same Diomed's a false-hearted rogue, a most 
  unjust knave; I will no more trust him when he leers 
  than I will a serpent when he hisses: he will spend 3035
  his mouth, and promise, like Brabbler the hound: 
  but when he performs, astronomers foretell it; it 
  is prodigious, there will come some change; the sun 
  borrows of the moon, when Diomed keeps his 
  word. I will rather leave to see Hector, than 3040
  not to dog him: they say he keeps a Trojan 
  drab, and uses the traitor Calchas' tent: I'll 
  after. Nothing but lechery! all incontinent varlets!

[DonRocks]

Something you may not have noticed in Act IV Scene 4, Line 2670, immediately after the extended kissing scene. Everyone says in unison, after a trumpet blows off-stage: "The Trojan's trumpet!" This would be heard by the audience as, "The Trojan strumpet!" It doesn't get much funnier than this.

I know I've said this before, but it's amazing how much Thersites reminds me of Fool in King Lear. Yes, he's a venom-tongued viper, but he speaks the truth - always - and he's nobody's fool. In fact, he's my favorite character in this play.

And I think the mere concept of "Brabbler The Hound" deserves some type of overdue literary award (my book is out in the car, but it has a *hilarious* description of this fictional canine - I'll fetch it later and pen it here).

I finished Act V Scene 2 yesterday, and noticed that there are fully 8 scenes remaining in the play, but only about 20 pages left in the book, so they'll be coming fast-and-furious from this point forward. I bought my first copy of "Troilus and Cressida" in a used bookstore in London in the Spring of 2003 - I have been trying to finish this play for over eleven years! And I'm now just about there! Yes, a sense - a huge sense - of accomplishment, and this is the last unread book of my life (I've recently finished two or three that had remained unfinished for years). I cannot tell you what a good feeling this is.

[porcupine]

porcupine, I don't mean to doubt you, but I can't believe you've never read a play you thought was great. Really?

I didn't explain myself well.  I meant that works of literature have details and scripts often don't.  Sometimes my imagination can fill in the gaps, sometimes not.  A work of literature describes the light of the rising sun, the sudden burst of bird chatter, the chill in the air, frost on the grass, the expression on the lover's face as the other arrives, etc., building the whole scene in the reader's imagination.  A script - especially an early theater script, like Shakespeare, says "Enter Troilus".   I do not get the same thrill from reading a script that I do from reading a work of literature.

Something you may not have noticed in Act IV Scene 4, Line 2670, immediately after the extended kissing scene. Everyone says in unison, after a trumpet blows off-stage: "The Trojan's trumpet!" This would be heard by the audience as, "The Trojan strumpet!" It doesn't get much funnier than this.

And this is a good example.  A reader might not pick up on this (unless she's reading aloud, which is a good thing to do with a script), but a good actor/director will make sure the audience gets it.

As for my experience with Troilus and Cressida, I read it in college for a class in Shakespeare and wrote a paper on it, but that was decades ago.  I loved Shakespeare and read most of his works; also I've always had a thing for the whole Trojan war story and gobbled up just about anything related to it.  Anyway I don't recall enough detail to join the conversation, nor have I been reading the scenes as you post them; my reading list is miles long and getting longer all the time.

[DIShGo]

Something you may not have noticed in Act IV Scene 4, Line 2670, immediately after the extended kissing scene. Everyone says in unison, after a trumpet blows off-stage: "The Trojan's trumpet!" This would be heard by the audience as, "The Trojan strumpet!" It doesn't get much funnier than this.

That IS funny!

I know I've said this before, but it's amazing how much Thersites reminds me of Fool in King Lear. Yes, he's a venom-tongued viper, but he speaks the truth - always - and he's nobody's fool. In fact, he's my favorite character in this play.

It doesn't surprise me that you like this character. In my copy of the book, the introduction talks about how there are a lot of puns in this play, and how Thersites makes most of them.

I didn't explain myself well. I meant that works of literature have details and scripts often don't. Sometimes my imagination can fill in the gaps, sometimes not. A work of literature describes the light of the rising sun, the sudden burst of bird chatter, the chill in the air, frost on the grass, the expression on the lover's face as the other arrives, etc., building the whole scene in the reader's imagination. A script - especially an early theater script, like Shakespeare, says "Enter Troilus". I do not get the same thrill from reading a script that I do from reading a work of literature.

And this is a good example. A reader might not pick up on this (unless she's reading aloud, which is a good thing to do with a script), but a good actor/director will make sure the audience gets it.

As for my experience with Troilus and Cressida, I read it in college for a class in Shakespeare and wrote a paper on it, but that was decades ago. I loved Shakespeare and read most of his works; also I've always had a thing for the whole Trojan war story and gobbled up just about anything related to it. Anyway I don't recall enough detail to join the conversation, nor have I been reading the scenes as you post them; my reading list is miles long and getting longer all the time.

I completely understand about the mile long reading list. I have been trying to get through "One Hundred Years of Solitude" for months now. It would have been great to have you participate in this discussion, however! I enjoy your thoughtful and well-written literary analysis.

Maybe someday, if you stumble upon your old college paper in a closet somewhere, you can add your two cents and enlighten us on this topic!

[DIShGo]

I got so caught up in Act V this morning, I found myself reading Scene 3 before I realized I'd finished Scene 1! Poor Troilus. I feel sorry for him.

Thersites' commentary makes these scenes. I love all of the clever wordplay. If only people today were so creative when insulting each other.

[DonRocks]

I got so caught up in Act V this morning, I found myself reading Scene 3 before I realized I'd finished Scene 1! Poor Troilus. I feel sorry for him.

Thersites' commentary makes these scenes. I love all of the clever wordplay. If only people today were so creative when insulting each other.

Scene 3 is the one in Calchas' tent, right?

Think about this: Why is Thersites even there?

You have Diomedes and Cressida, Ulysses (perhaps my second-favorite character, btw) and poor Troilus who is going insane with jealousy, and ... Thersites.

I think he's there just to make witty commentary; his presence serves no other purpose.

(I, too, was almost finished with Act V Scene 2 while still thinking I was on Scene 1.)

Do you think Cressida did anything *that* bad with Diomedes? This is probably what porcupine is referring to - it's up to the Director to make it *look* bad. I was at the gym when I read this, and still don't quite understand the back-and-forth bit with the sleeve - maybe Troilus looked upon that as the ultimate betrayal?

[DIShGo]

Scene 3 is the one in Calchas' tent, right?

Think about this: Why is Thersites even there?

You have Diomedes and Cressida, Ulysses and poor Troilus who is going insane with jealousy, and ... Thersites.

I think he's there just to make witty commentary; his presence serves no other purpose.

(I, too, was almost finished with Act V Scene 2 while still thinking I was on Scene 1.)

I wondered that myself. I see no reason for him to be there other than to amuse us with his witty commentary, and that he does.

[DonRocks]

Act V, Scene 2

The same. Before Calchas' tent.

[Enter DIOMEDES]

• Diomedes. What, are you up here, ho? speak.

• Calchas. [Within] Who calls?

• Diomedes. Calchas, I think. Where's your daughter?

• Calchas. [Within] She comes to you. 
  [Enter TROILUS and ULYSSES, at a distance;] 3050
  after them, THERSITES]

• Ulysses. Stand where the torch may not discover us.

[Enter CRESSIDA]

• Troilus. Cressid comes forth to him.

• Diomedes. How now, my charge!3055

• Cressida. Now, my sweet guardian! Hark, a word with you.

[Whispers]

• Troilus. Yea, so familiar!

• Ulysses. She will sing any man at first sight.

• Thersites. And any man may sing her, if he can take her cliff; 3060
  she's noted.

• Diomedes. Will you remember?

• Cressida. Remember! yes.

• Diomedes. Nay, but do, then; 
  And let your mind be coupled with your words.3065

• Troilus. What should she remember?

• Ulysses. List.

• Cressida. Sweet honey Greek, tempt me no more to folly.

• Thersites. Roguery!

• Diomedes. Nay, then,"”3070

• Cressida. I'll tell you what,"”

• Diomedes. Foh, foh! come, tell a pin: you are forsworn.

• Cressida. In faith, I cannot: what would you have me do?

• Thersites. A juggling trick,"”to be secretly open.

• Diomedes. What did you swear you would bestow on me?3075

• Cressida. I prithee, do not hold me to mine oath; 
  Bid me do any thing but that, sweet Greek.

• Diomedes. Good night.

• Troilus. Hold, patience!

• Ulysses. How now, Trojan!3080

• Cressida. Diomed,"”

• Diomedes. No, no, good night: I'll be your fool no more.

• Troilus. Thy better must.

• Cressida. Hark, one word in your ear.

• Troilus. O plague and madness!3085

• Ulysses. You are moved, prince; let us depart, I pray you, 
  Lest your displeasure should enlarge itself 
  To wrathful terms: this place is dangerous; 
  The time right deadly; I beseech you, go.

• Troilus. Behold, I pray you!3090

• Ulysses. Nay, good my lord, go off: 
  You flow to great distraction; come, my lord.

• Troilus. I pray thee, stay.

• Ulysses. You have not patience; come.

• Troilus. I pray you, stay; by hell and all hell's torments 3095
  I will not speak a word!

• Diomedes. And so, good night.

• Cressida. Nay, but you part in anger.

• Troilus. Doth that grieve thee? 
  O wither'd truth!3100

• Ulysses. Why, how now, lord!

• Troilus. By Jove, 
  I will be patient.

• Cressida. Guardian!"”why, Greek!

• Diomedes. Foh, foh! adieu; you palter.3105

• Cressida. In faith, I do not: come hither once again.

• Ulysses. You shake, my lord, at something: will you go? 
  You will break out.

• Troilus. She strokes his cheek!

• Ulysses. Come, come.3110

• Troilus. Nay, stay; by Jove, I will not speak a word: 
  There is between my will and all offences 
  A guard of patience: stay a little while.

• Thersites. How the devil Luxury, with his fat rump and 
  potato-finger, tickles these together! Fry, lechery, fry!3115

• Diomedes. But will you, then?

• Cressida. In faith, I will, la; never trust me else.

• Diomedes. Give me some token for the surety of it.

• Cressida. I'll fetch you one.

[Exit]

• Ulysses. You have sworn patience.

• Troilus. Fear me not, sweet lord; 
  I will not be myself, nor have cognition 
  Of what I feel: I am all patience.

[Re-enter CRESSIDA]

• Thersites. Now the pledge; now, now, now!

• Cressida. Here, Diomed, keep this sleeve.

• Troilus. O beauty! where is thy faith?

• Ulysses. My lord,"”

• Troilus. I will be patient; outwardly I will.3130

• Cressida. You look upon that sleeve; behold it well. 
  He loved me"”O false wench!"”Give't me again.

• Diomedes. Whose was't?

• Cressida. It is no matter, now I have't again. 
  I will not meet with you to-morrow night: 3135
  I prithee, Diomed, visit me no more.

• Thersites. Now she sharpens: well said, whetstone!

• Diomedes. I shall have it.

• Cressida. What, this?

• Diomedes. Ay, that.3140

• Cressida. O, all you gods! O pretty, pretty pledge! 
  Thy master now lies thinking in his bed 
  Of thee and me, and sighs, and takes my glove, 
  And gives memorial dainty kisses to it, 
  As I kiss thee. Nay, do not snatch it from me; 3145
  He that takes that doth take my heart withal.

• Diomedes. I had your heart before, this follows it.

• Troilus. I did swear patience.

• Cressida. You shall not have it, Diomed; faith, you shall not; 
  I'll give you something else.3150

• Diomedes. I will have this: whose was it?

• Cressida. It is no matter.

• Diomedes. Come, tell me whose it was.

• Cressida. 'Twas one's that loved me better than you will. 
  But, now you have it, take it.3155

• Diomedes. Whose was it?

• Cressida. By all Diana's waiting-women yond, 
  And by herself, I will not tell you whose.

• Diomedes. To-morrow will I wear it on my helm, 
  And grieve his spirit that dares not challenge it.3160

• Troilus. Wert thou the devil, and worest it on thy horn, 
  It should be challenged.

• Cressida. Well, well, 'tis done, 'tis past: and yet it is not; 
  I will not keep my word.

• Diomedes. Why, then, farewell; 3165
  Thou never shalt mock Diomed again.

• Cressida. You shall not go: one cannot speak a word, 
  But it straight starts you.

• Diomedes. I do not like this fooling.

• Thersites. Nor I, by Pluto: but that that likes not you pleases me best.3170

• Diomedes. What, shall I come? the hour?

• Cressida. Ay, come:"”O Jove!"”do come:"”I shall be plagued.

• Diomedes. Farewell till then.

• Cressida. Good night: I prithee, come. 
  [Exit DIOMEDES] 3175
  Troilus, farewell! one eye yet looks on thee 
  But with my heart the other eye doth see. 
  Ah, poor our sex! this fault in us I find, 
  The error of our eye directs our mind: 
  What error leads must err; O, then conclude 3180
  Minds sway'd by eyes are full of turpitude.

[Exit]

• Thersites. A proof of strength she could not publish more, 
  Unless she said ' My mind is now turn'd whore.'

• Ulysses. All's done, my lord.3185

• Troilus. It is.

• Ulysses. Why stay we, then?

• Troilus. To make a recordation to my soul 
  Of every syllable that here was spoke. 
  But if I tell how these two did co-act, 3190
  Shall I not lie in publishing a truth? 
  Sith yet there is a credence in my heart, 
  An esperance so obstinately strong, 
  That doth invert the attest of eyes and ears, 
  As if those organs had deceptious functions, 3195
  Created only to calumniate. 
  Was Cressid here?

• Ulysses. I cannot conjure, Trojan.

• Troilus. She was not, sure.

• Ulysses. Most sure she was.3200

• Troilus. Why, my negation hath no taste of madness.

• Ulysses. Nor mine, my lord: Cressid was here but now.

• Troilus. Let it not be believed for womanhood! 
  Think, we had mothers; do not give advantage 
  To stubborn critics, apt, without a theme, 3205
  For depravation, to square the general sex 
  By Cressid's rule: rather think this not Cressid.

• Ulysses. What hath she done, prince, that can soil our mothers?

• Troilus. Nothing at all, unless that this were she.

• Thersites. Will he swagger himself out on's own eyes?3210

• Troilus. This she? no, this is Diomed's Cressida: 
  If beauty have a soul, this is not she; 
  If souls guide vows, if vows be sanctimonies, 
  If sanctimony be the gods' delight, 
  If there be rule in unity itself, 3215
  This is not she. O madness of discourse, 
  That cause sets up with and against itself! 
  Bi-fold authority! where reason can revolt 
  Without perdition, and loss assume all reason 
  Without revolt: this is, and is not, Cressid. 3220
  Within my soul there doth conduce a fight 
  Of this strange nature that a thing inseparate 
  Divides more wider than the sky and earth, 
  And yet the spacious breadth of this division 
  Admits no orifex for a point as subtle 3225
  As Ariachne's broken woof to enter. 
  Instance, O instance! strong as Pluto's gates; 
  Cressid is mine, tied with the bonds of heaven: 
  Instance, O instance! strong as heaven itself; 
  The bonds of heaven are slipp'd, dissolved, and loosed; 3230
  And with another knot, five-finger-tied, 
  The fractions of her faith, orts of her love, 
  The fragments, scraps, the bits and greasy relics 
  Of her o'er-eaten faith, are bound to Diomed.

• Ulysses. May worthy Troilus be half attach'd 3235
  With that which here his passion doth express?

• Troilus. Ay, Greek; and that shall be divulged well 
  In characters as red as Mars his heart 
  Inflamed with Venus: never did young man fancy 
  With so eternal and so fix'd a soul. 3240
  Hark, Greek: as much as I do Cressid love, 
  So much by weight hate I her Diomed: 
  That sleeve is mine that he'll bear on his helm; 
  Were it a casque composed by Vulcan's skill, 
  My sword should bite it: not the dreadful spout 3245
  Which shipmen do the hurricano call, 
  Constringed in mass by the almighty sun, 
  Shall dizzy with more clamour Neptune's ear 
  In his descent than shall my prompted sword 
  Falling on Diomed.3250

• Thersites. He'll tickle it for his concupy.

• Troilus. O Cressid! O false Cressid! false, false, false! 
  Let all untruths stand by thy stained name, 
  And they'll seem glorious.

• Ulysses. O, contain yourself 3255
  Your passion draws ears hither.

[Enter AENEAS]

• Aeneas. I have been seeking you this hour, my lord: 
  Hector, by this, is arming him in Troy; 
  Ajax, your guard, stays to conduct you home.3260

• Troilus. Have with you, prince. My courteous lord, adieu. 
  Farewell, revolted fair! and, Diomed, 
  Stand fast, and wear a castle on thy head!

• Ulysses. I'll bring you to the gates.

• Troilus. Accept distracted thanks.3265

[Exeunt TROILUS, AENEAS, and ULYSSES]

• Thersites. Would I could meet that rogue Diomed! I would 
  croak like a raven; I would bode, I would bode. 
  Patroclus will give me any thing for the 
  intelligence of this whore: the parrot will not 3270
  do more for an almond than he for a commodious drab. 
  Lechery, lechery; still, wars and lechery; nothing 
  else holds fashion: a burning devil take them!

[Exit]

[DonRocks]

Scene 3 is the one in Calchas' tent, right?

Nope, it was Scene 2 - I just finished Scene 3 (which is not at all bad) a few hours ago, and will post it in the short.

[DIShGo]

Nope, it was Scene 2 - I just finished Scene 3 (which is not at all bad) a few hours ago, and will post it in the short.

Scene 2 was my favorite part of the play so far.  I found Thersites' commentary amusing, I felt sorry for Troilus and I felt a growing contempt for Cressida. Until now, I had given her the benefit of the doubt, but after this scene, no more!

[DonRocks]

Scene 2 was my favorite part of the play so far.  I found Thersites' commentary amusing, I felt sorry for Troilus and I felt a growing contempt for Cressida. Until now, I had given her the benefit of the doubt, but after this scene, no more!

I finished the play today, and will post the rest of the acts over the next several days.

Here's a preview: My favorite character is now Hector, and my least-favorite character is now Achilles for reasons that will become painfully obvious (Hector has been pretty great all along, if you think about it, and Achilles has always been pretty skeevy, but nothing compared to what is about to ensue).

[DonRocks]

Act V, Scene 3

Troy. Before Priam's palace.

[Enter HECTOR and ANDROMACHE]

• Andromache. When was my lord so much ungently temper'd, 
  To stop his ears against admonishment? 
  Unarm, unarm, and do not fight to-day.

• Hector. You train me to offend you; get you in: 
  By all the everlasting gods, I'll go!3280

• Andromache. My dreams will, sure, prove ominous to the day.

• Hector. No more, I say.

[Enter CASSANDRA]

• Cassandra. Where is my brother Hector?

• Andromache. Here, sister; arm'd, and bloody in intent. 3285
  Consort with me in loud and dear petition, 
  Pursue we him on knees; for I have dream'd 
  Of bloody turbulence, and this whole night 
  Hath nothing been but shapes and forms of slaughter.

• Cassandra. O, 'tis true.3290

• Hector. Ho! bid my trumpet sound!

• Cassandra. No notes of sally, for the heavens, sweet brother.

• Hector. Be gone, I say: the gods have heard me swear.

• Cassandra. The gods are deaf to hot and peevish vows: 
  They are polluted offerings, more abhorr'd 3295
  Than spotted livers in the sacrifice.

• Andromache. O, be persuaded! do not count it holy 
  To hurt by being just: it is as lawful, 
  For we would give much, to use violent thefts, 
  And rob in the behalf of charity.3300

• Cassandra. It is the purpose that makes strong the vow; 
  But vows to every purpose must not hold: 
  Unarm, sweet Hector.

• Hector. Hold you still, I say; 
  Mine honour keeps the weather of my fate: 3305
  Lie every man holds dear; but the brave man 
  Holds honour far more precious-dear than life. 
  [Enter TROILUS] 
  How now, young man! mean'st thou to fight to-day?

• Andromache. Cassandra, call my father to persuade.3310

[Exit CASSANDRA]

• Hector. No, faith, young Troilus; doff thy harness, youth; 
  I am to-day i' the vein of chivalry: 
  Let grow thy sinews till their knots be strong, 
  And tempt not yet the brushes of the war. 3315
  Unarm thee, go, and doubt thou not, brave boy, 
  I'll stand to-day for thee and me and Troy.

• Troilus. Brother, you have a vice of mercy in you, 
  Which better fits a lion than a man.

• Hector. What vice is that, good Troilus? chide me for it.3320

• Troilus. When many times the captive Grecian falls, 
  Even in the fan and wind of your fair sword, 
  You bid them rise, and live.

• Hector. O,'tis fair play.

• Troilus. Fool's play, by heaven, Hector.3325

• Hector. How now! how now!

• Troilus. For the love of all the gods, 
  Let's leave the hermit pity with our mothers, 
  And when we have our armours buckled on, 
  The venom'd vengeance ride upon our swords, 3330
  Spur them to ruthful work, rein them from ruth.

• Hector. Fie, savage, fie!

• Troilus. Hector, then 'tis wars.

• Hector. Troilus, I would not have you fight to-day.

• Troilus. Who should withhold me? 3335
  Not fate, obedience, nor the hand of Mars 
  Beckoning with fiery truncheon my retire; 
  Not Priamus and Hecuba on knees, 
  Their eyes o'ergalled with recourse of tears; 
  Not you, my brother, with your true sword drawn, 3340
  Opposed to hinder me, should stop my way, 
  But by my ruin.

[Re-enter CASSANDRA, with PRIAM]

• Cassandra. Lay hold upon him, Priam, hold him fast: 
  He is thy crutch; now if thou lose thy stay, 3345
  Thou on him leaning, and all Troy on thee, 
  Fall all together.

• Priam. Come, Hector, come, go back: 
  Thy wife hath dream'd; thy mother hath had visions; 
  Cassandra doth foresee; and I myself 3350
  Am like a prophet suddenly enrapt 
  To tell thee that this day is ominous: 
  Therefore, come back.

• Hector. AEneas is a-field; 
  And I do stand engaged to many Greeks, 3355
  Even in the faith of valour, to appear 
  This morning to them.

• Priam. Ay, but thou shalt not go.

• Hector. I must not break my faith. 
  You know me dutiful; therefore, dear sir, 3360
  Let me not shame respect; but give me leave 
  To take that course by your consent and voice, 
  Which you do here forbid me, royal Priam.

• Cassandra. O Priam, yield not to him!

• Andromache. Do not, dear father.3365

• Hector. Andromache, I am offended with you: 
  Upon the love you bear me, get you in.

[Exit ANDROMACHE]

• Troilus. This foolish, dreaming, superstitious girl 
  Makes all these bodements.3370

• Cassandra. O, farewell, dear Hector! 
  Look, how thou diest! look, how thy eye turns pale! 
  Look, how thy wounds do bleed at many vents! 
  Hark, how Troy roars! how Hecuba cries out! 
  How poor Andromache shrills her dolours forth! 3375
  Behold, distraction, frenzy and amazement, 
  Like witless antics, one another meet, 
  And all cry, Hector! Hector's dead! O Hector!

• Troilus. Away! away!

• Cassandra. Farewell: yet, soft! Hector! take my leave: 3380
  Thou dost thyself and all our Troy deceive.

[Exit]

• Hector. You are amazed, my liege, at her exclaim: 
  Go in and cheer the town: we'll forth and fight, 
  Do deeds worth praise and tell you them at night.3385

• Priam. Farewell: the gods with safety stand about thee!

[Exeunt severally PRIAM and HECTOR. Alarums]

• Troilus. They are at it, hark! Proud Diomed, believe, 
  I come to lose my arm, or win my sleeve.

[Enter PANDARUS]

• Pandarus. Do you hear, my lord? do you hear?

• Troilus. What now?

• Pandarus. Here's a letter come from yond poor girl.

• Troilus. Let me read.

• Pandarus. A whoreson tisick, a whoreson rascally tisick so 3395
  troubles me, and the foolish fortune of this girl; 
  and what one thing, what another, that I shall 
  leave you one o' these days: and I have a rheum 
  in mine eyes too, and such an ache in my bones 
  that, unless a man were cursed, I cannot tell what 3400
  to think on't. What says she there?

• Troilus. Words, words, mere words, no matter from the heart: 
  The effect doth operate another way. 
  [Tearing the letter] 
  Go, wind, to wind, there turn and change together. 3405
  My love with words and errors still she feeds; 
  But edifies another with her deeds.

[Exeunt severally]

[DonRocks]

Act V Scene 3 begins with both Andromache (Hector's wife, who had forboding dreams) and Cassandra (Hector's daughter, a prophetess) both urging him not to fight today, for fear that disaster will come.

Although he (of course) dismisses both of them, one thing I've learned is that *anytime* a dream, a soothsayer, a prophetess, a witch, a fortune teller, a Fool, or any other character or thing with supposedly supernatural powers tells you not to do something in Shakespeare ... *you don't do it*! Hector ignores both Andromache and Cassandra, and he will pay the ultimate price for doing so.

In a less supernatural vein, Hector urges Troilus not to fight today as well, while all Troilus wants is to go out and whip some Diomedic ass, namely, to capture Cressida's sleeve from Diomedes, and to figuratively "shove it up his ass." I'm reminded of the Jim Croce song, "You Don't Mess Around With Slim."

King Priam (Hector's father) even comes to try to talk some sense into him, basically saying, 'look, everybody has their bad days - just stay home,' and even *he* can't do it - and he's the King. Hector is going to fight like a devil, and only a devil could defeat him given the mood he's in, and only a devil will.

So at the end of the scene, you have both Hector and Troilus, hell-bent to fight for honor - Hector for the honor of his country; Troilus, for the honor of his lost love: Both can be equally powerful motivators. I loved this seen - it was tight, well-spoken, pertinent, in transition, foreboding, and primes the reader or viewer for what is to come next.

[porcupine]

Act V Scene 3 begins with both Andromache (Hector's wife, who had forboding dreams) and Cassandra (Hector's daughtersister, a prophetess) both urging him not to fight today, for fear that disaster will come.

Although he (of course) dismisses both of them, one thing I've learned is that *anytime* a dream, a soothsayer, a prophetess, a witch, a fortune teller, a Fool, or any other character or thing with supposedly supernatural powers tells you not to do something in Shakespeare ... *you don't do it*! Hector ignores both Andromache and Cassandra, and he will pay the ultimate price for doing so.

Isn't Cassandra Hector's sister?  In classical mythology she was cursed by Apollo: although her prophecies would always come true, no one would ever believe her.

The Greeks were great with that sort of thing.

[DonRocks]

Isn't Cassandra Hector's sister?  In classical mythology she was cursed by Apollo: although her prophecies would always come true, no one would ever believe her.

The Greeks were great with that sort of thing.

Yes, I mistyped - I was thinking Priam's daughter; Hector's sister.

[DIShGo]

I liked this scene, too. There is a lot of foreshadowing here, particularly when Troilus chides Hector for being merciful to his enemies. It sets the tone for the rest of the play. After this scene, the play takes a decidedly darker turn. It serves as a bridge between the lighter, more comedic parts of the play and the somber ending.

I wish I knew more about Greek mythology. I think it would enhance my enjoyment of this play. Sadly, most of my knowledge of Greek mythology stems from watching the Greek mythology plays my kids performed when they were in the sixth grade.

[DonRocks]

I wish I knew more about Greek mythology. I think it would enhance my enjoyment of this play. Sadly, most of my knowledge of Greek mythology stems from watching the Greek mythology plays my kids performed when they were in the sixth grade.

Same here. I did not know that about Cassandra - porcupine's comments like that enrich my understanding of the play a lot. But DIShGo, reading things like this, while not *the* best way to learn, is *a* way to learn. Look what you now know about Cassandra. I was never able to sort out my Trojans and Greeks, but I've been on this play for so long now, that I'm pretty sure I'll remember going forward. It would be interesting to read Homer again.

The way this is typically going is that I'll copy a scene, a couple of us will discuss it, then I'll copy another one in, etc. etc. I hope people don't feel that, in the future, they can't add a post from Act 1, Scene 2, for example - that's the reason I put the play in, so we can all look back to refer to it if someone makes a comment on an older scene. I would *love* to keep discussing the older scenes going forward - in fact, this just may be my very favorite discussion thread right now on the board. Plays, movies, music, etc. make for interesting discussion because we all experience the same thing, and we're all educated enough to offer up interesting points of view, even if they're "small ones." With restaurants, we may have all been to a restaurant, but with any given dish, it's rare that others will experience the exact same one. That's why I get bat-shit excited when I see someone write about a dish I have. Also, with the four TV series I'm covering (two Star Treks, Twilight Zone, and Night Gallery), I'm eagerly awaiting comments on *any* of the episodes or segments, and I hope adding all those was a long-term investment in peoples' enrichment (I'm confident that it was). Please feel free to chime in at any time, about any episode, and lend your thoughts - I *love* reading them.

[DonRocks]

Act V, Scene 4

Plains between Troy and the Grecian camp.

[Alarums: excursions. Enter THERSITES]

• Thersites. Now they are clapper-clawing one another; I'll go 3410
  look on. That dissembling abominable varlets Diomed, 
  has got that same scurvy doting foolish young knave's 
  sleeve of Troy there in his helm: I would fain see 
  them meet; that that same young Trojan ass, that 
  loves the whore there, might send that Greekish 3415
  whore-masterly villain, with the sleeve, back to the 
  dissembling luxurious drab, of a sleeveless errand. 
  O' the t'other side, the policy of those crafty 
  swearing rascals, that stale old mouse-eaten dry 
  cheese, Nestor, and that same dog-fox, Ulysses, is 3420
  not proved worthy a blackberry: they set me up, in 
  policy, that mongrel cur, Ajax, against that dog of 
  as bad a kind, Achilles: and now is the cur Ajax 
  prouder than the cur Achilles, and will not arm 
  to-day; whereupon the Grecians begin to proclaim 3425
  barbarism, and policy grows into an ill opinion. 
  Soft! here comes sleeve, and t'other.

[Enter DIOMEDES, TROILUS following]

• Troilus. Fly not; for shouldst thou take the river Styx, 
  I would swim after.3430

• Diomedes. Thou dost miscall retire: 
  I do not fly, but advantageous care 
  Withdrew me from the odds of multitude: 
  Have at thee!

• Thersites. Hold thy whore, Grecian!"”now for thy whore, 3435
  Trojan!"”now the sleeve, now the sleeve!

[Exeunt TROILUS and DIOMEDES, fighting]
[Enter HECTOR]

• Hector. What art thou, Greek? art thou for Hector's match? 
  Art thou of blood and honour?3440

• Thersites. No, no, I am a rascal; a scurvy railing knave: 
  a very filthy rogue.

• Hector. I do believe thee: live.

[Exit]

• Thersites. God-a-mercy, that thou wilt believe me; but a 3445
  plague break thy neck for frightening me! What's 
  become of the wenching rogues? I think they have 
  swallowed one another: I would laugh at that 
  miracle: yet, in a sort, lechery eats itself. 
  I'll seek them.3450

[Exit]

[DonRocks]

3410 - "clapper-clawing" is funny. I don't need to know what it means to know what it means.
3411 - "varlet" should be used in modern language.
3412 - "Scurvy-doting" is awesome.
3413 - "fain" is a good word to know (meaning "with pleasure"), and a homophone to feign (meaning "pretend to be affected by")
3417 - "disassembling luxurious drab, of a sleeveless errand" is a good example of a line that doesn't make full sense to me; and yet, it's perfect.
3419 - Referring to Nestor as a "stale old mouse-eaten dry cheese" is hilarious
3421 - I have no idea what "blackberry" means in this sense and it doesn't even matter.
3430 - This is fantastic, Troilus telling Diomedes that even if he flees to Hell, Troilus will keep swimming after him. Why can't people write like this anymore? 
3431 - And Diomedes' response is so beautifully written, saying, simply, "Hey buddy, just trying to get away from your backups. Now, let's have at it!"
3435 - Thersites makes an awesome Howard Cosell.
3439 - Hector is great in every way. I love the strength he projects in saying to (the somewhat innocent) Thersites, "Live." And then just walks away.
3435 - You almost hate to see Thersites say *anything* not entirely nice about Hector, but this is as nice as he gets.
3447 - "wenching" used as an adjective almost made me laugh out loud. "the wenching rogues" - that's funny.
 
I love the dialogue in this short, sweet scene - all it does is to describe a little action, but I took so much from it when I concentrated on each word.

[porcupine]

I liked this scene, too. There is a lot of foreshadowing here, particularly when Troilus chides Hector for being merciful to his enemies. It sets the tone for the rest of the play. After this scene, the play takes a decidedly darker turn. It serves as a bridge between the lighter, more comedic parts of the play and the somber ending.

I wish I knew more about Greek mythology. I think it would enhance my enjoyment of this play. Sadly, most of my knowledge of Greek mythology stems from watching the Greek mythology plays my kids performed when they were in the sixth grade.

Add Edith Hamilton's Mythology to your miles-long reading list. 

[DIShGo]

Add Edith Hamilton's Mythology to your miles-long reading list. 

Thank you, I will!

[DIShGo]

3410 - "clapper-clawing" is funny. I don't need to know what it means to know what it means.

3411 - "varlet" should be used in modern language.

3412 - "Scurvy-doting" is awesome.

3413 - "fain" is a good word to know (meaning "with pleasure"), and a homophone to feign (meaning "pretend to be affected by")

3417 - "disassembling luxurious drab, of a sleeveless errand" is a good example of a line that doesn't make full sense to me; and yet, it's perfect.

3419 - Referring to Nestor as a "stale old mouse-eaten dry cheese" is hilarious

3421 - I have no idea what "blackberry" means in this sense and it doesn't even matter.

3430 - This is fantastic, Troilus telling Diomedes that even if he flees to Hell, Troilus will keep swimming after him. Why can't people write like this anymore?

3431 - And Diomedes' response is so beautifully written, saying, simply, "Hey buddy, just trying to get away from your backups. Now, let's have at it!"

3435 - Thersites makes an awesome Howard Cosell.

3439 - Hector is great in every way. I love the strength he projects in saying to (the somewhat innocent) Thersites, "Live." And then just walks away.

3435 - You almost hate to see Thersites say *anything* not entirely nice about Hector, but this is as nice as he gets.

3447 - "wenching" used as an adjective almost made me laugh out loud. "the wenching rogues" - that's funny.

I love the dialogue in this short, sweet scene - all it does is to describe a little action, but I took so much from it when I concentrated on each word.

I love the way you took this on, line by line. Thersites and his colorful commentary really add to my enjoyment of this play. He is hilarious.

The language is so rich and descriptive. It makes the way people talk and write today seem lazy and unimaginative by comparison.

According to my book, the term blackberry means, "a wild fruit so plentiful at the time as to be of little value."

Also according to my copy of the book, "luxurious" in "dissembling luxurious drab, of a sleeveless errand," means lecherous, and "of a sleeveless errand," means, "on an empty or pointless errand (with obvious wordplay on sleeveless)."

[DIShGo]

Same here. I did not know that about Cassandra - porcupine's comments like that enrich my understanding of the play a lot. But DIShGo, reading things like this, while not *the* best way to learn, is *a* way to learn. Look what you now know about Cassandra. I was never able to sort out my Trojans and Greeks, but I've been on this play for so long now, that I'm pretty sure I'll remember going forward. It would be interesting to read Homer again.

You are absolutely right. I *am* learning about Greek mythology by doing this, and it has whet my desire to learn more!

[DonRocks]

The language is so rich and descriptive. It makes the way people talk and write today seem lazy and unimaginative by comparison.

Remember also that despite the turn in the play, Shakespeare is still writing it in iambic pentameter, although it's so subtle at this point that nobody notices.

e.g.,

Thersites: "A very filthy rogue."

Hector: "I do believe thee: live."

[DonRocks]

Act V, Scene 5
Another part of the plains.

• [Enter DIOMEDES and a Servant]

  • Diomedes. Go, go, my servant, take thou Troilus' horse; 
    Present the fair steed to my lady Cressid: 
    Fellow, commend my service to her beauty; 3455
    Tell her I have chastised the amorous Trojan, 
    And am her knight by proof.
  • Servant. I go, my lord.

  [Exit]

  [Enter AGAMEMNON]

  • Agamemnon. Renew, renew! The fierce Polydamas 
    Hath beat down Menon: bastard Margarelon 
    Hath Doreus prisoner, 
    And stands colossus-wise, waving his beam, 
    Upon the pashed corses of the kings 3465
    Epistrophus and Cedius: Polyxenes is slain, 
    Amphimachus and Thoas deadly hurt, 
    Patroclus ta'en or slain, and Palamedes 
    Sore hurt and bruised: the dreadful Sagittary 
    Appals our numbers: haste we, Diomed, 3470
    To reinforcement, or we perish all.

  [Enter NESTOR]

  • Nestor. Go, bear Patroclus' body to Achilles; 
    And bid the snail-paced Ajax arm for shame. 
    There is a thousand Hectors in the field: 3475
    Now here he fights on Galathe his horse, 
    And there lacks work; anon he's there afoot, 
    And there they fly or die, like scaled sculls 
    Before the belching whale; then is he yonder, 
    And there the strawy Greeks, ripe for his edge, 3480
    Fall down before him, like the mower's swath: 
    Here, there, and every where, he leaves and takes, 
    Dexterity so obeying appetite 
    That what he will he does, and does so much 
    That proof is call'd impossibility.3485

  [Enter ULYSSES]

  • Ulysses. O, courage, courage, princes! great Achilles 
    Is arming, weeping, cursing, vowing vengeance: 
    Patroclus' wounds have roused his drowsy blood, 
    Together with his mangled Myrmidons, 3490
    That noseless, handless, hack'd and chipp'd, come to him, 
    Crying on Hector. Ajax hath lost a friend 
    And foams at mouth, and he is arm'd and at it, 
    Roaring for Troilus, who hath done to-day 
    Mad and fantastic execution, 3495
    Engaging and redeeming of himself 
    With such a careless force and forceless care 
    As if that luck, in very spite of cunning, 
    Bade him win all.

  [Enter AJAX]

  • Ajax. Troilus! thou coward Troilus!

  [Exit]

  • Diomedes. Ay, there, there.
  • Nestor. So, so, we draw together.

  [Enter ACHILLES]

  • Achilles. Where is this Hector? 
    Come, come, thou boy-queller, show thy face; 
    Know what it is to meet Achilles angry: 
    Hector? where's Hector? I will none but Hector.

  [Exeunt]

[DonRocks]

Aristotle once said, the three things to remember in giving a great speech are: Tell them what you're going to tell them, tell them, and tell them what you just told them.

I look at this chapter not so much as "foreshadowing," but as "telling them what you're going to tell them," or at least a cousin of that. The reader (or the viewer), at this point, is blitzing through the short final scenes, and this one is easily overlooked as we race towards the end (you'll see that the remaining scenes are all strikingly short).

Now, when someone's wife, mother, and prophetic sister are all having visions and dreams, basically urging you to stay home and watch TV - that's foreshadowing.

But while not central to the structure of the play, 5.5 does add a stutter-step, giving the audience a subliminal moment to pause on what's about to happen - putting a little relish on the hot dog just before serving it. Patroclus has been slain, and that could be considered a cousin of foreshadowing (or telling them what you're going to tell them). It's also important that this karma-in-reverse-order happens now because Patroclus dying is still a big deal at this point, but it won't be after you witness what has been strongly hinted at for the entire play. but never proven: Achilles is a clit of the highest order.

[DIShGo]

I honestly forgot all about the iambic pentameter. Thanks for the reminder.

[DIShGo]

Aristotle once said, the three things to remember in giving a great speech are: Tell them what you're going to tell them, tell them, and tell them what you just told them.

Aristotle said that? I remember my editorial and feature writing professor in college always saying that, too.

Let's keep going. It is starting to get interesting.

[DonRocks]

Aristotle said that? I remember my editorial and feature writing professor in college always saying that, too.

Let's keep going. It is starting to get interesting.

It's amazing how many common sayings trace back to the great Greek Philosophers (or even Shakespeare) - Aristotle was truly one of the most important and influential people in history.

Okay, let's keep going!

[DonRocks]

Act V, Scene 6

Another part of the plains.

[To save you having to scroll back to the character descriptions, click here.

Click your "Previous Page" button to return here.]

[Enter AJAX]

• Ajax. Troilus, thou coward Troilus, show thy head!

[Enter DIOMEDES]

• Diomedes. Troilus, I say! where's Troilus?

• Ajax. What wouldst thou?3515

• Diomedes. I would correct him.

• Ajax. Were I the general, thou shouldst have my office 
  Ere that correction. Troilus, I say! what, Troilus!

[Enter TROILUS]

• Troilus. O traitor Diomed! turn thy false face, thou traitor, 3520
  And pay thy life thou owest me for my horse!

• Diomedes. Ha, art thou there?

• Ajax. I'll fight with him alone: stand, Diomed.

• Diomedes. He is my prize; I will not look upon.

• Troilus. Come, both you cogging Greeks; have at you both!3525

[Exeunt, fighting]

[Enter HECTOR]

• Hector. Yea, Troilus? O, well fought, my youngest brother!

[Enter ACHILLES]

• Achilles. Now do I see thee, ha! have at thee, Hector!3530

• Hector. Pause, if thou wilt.

• Achilles. I do disdain thy courtesy, proud Trojan: 
  Be happy that my arms are out of use: 
  My rest and negligence befriends thee now, 
  But thou anon shalt hear of me again; 3535
  Till when, go seek thy fortune.

[Exit]

• Hector. Fare thee well: 
  I would have been much more a fresher man, 
  Had I expected thee. How now, my brother!3540

[Re-enter TROILUS]

• Troilus. Ajax hath ta'en AEneas: shall it be? 
  No, by the flame of yonder glorious heaven, 
  He shall not carry him: I'll be ta'en too, 
  Or bring him off: fate, hear me what I say! 3545
  I reck not though I end my life to-day.

[Exit]

[Enter one in sumptuous armour]

• Hector. Stand, stand, thou Greek; thou art a goodly mark: 
  No? wilt thou not? I like thy armour well; 3550
  I'll frush it and unlock the rivets all, 
  But I'll be master of it: wilt thou not, 
  beast, abide? 
  Why, then fly on, I'll hunt thee for thy hide.

[Exeunt]

[DonRocks]

Act V, Scene 7

Another part of the plains.

[Enter ACHILLES, with Myrmidons]

• Achilles. Come here about me, you my Myrmidons; 
  Mark what I say. Attend me where I wheel: 
  Strike not a stroke, but keep yourselves in breath: 
  And when I have the bloody Hector found, 3560
  Empale him with your weapons round about; 
  In fellest manner execute your aims. 
  Follow me, sirs, and my proceedings eye: 
  It is decreed Hector the great must die. 
  [Exeunt] 3565
  [Enter MENELAUS and PARIS, fighting:] 
  then THERSITES]

• Thersites. The cuckold and the cuckold-maker are at it. Now, 
  bull! now, dog! 'Loo, Paris, 'loo! now my double- 
  henned sparrow! 'loo, Paris, 'loo! The bull has the 3570
  game: ware horns, ho!

[Exeunt PARIS and MENELAUS]

[Enter MARGARELON]

• Margarelon. Turn, slave, and fight.

• Thersites. What art thou?3575

• Margarelon. A bastard son of Priam's.

• Thersites. I am a bastard too; I love bastards: I am a bastard 
  begot, bastard instructed, bastard in mind, bastard 
  in valour, in every thing illegitimate. One bear will 
  not bite another, and wherefore should one bastard? 3580
  Take heed, the quarrel's most ominous to us: if the 
  son of a whore fight for a whore, he tempts judgment: 
  farewell, bastard.

[Exit]

• Margarelon. The devil take thee, coward!3585

[Exit]

[DonRocks]

Act V, Scene 8

Another part of the plains.

[Enter HECTOR]

• Hector. Most putrefied core, so fair without, 
  Thy goodly armour thus hath cost thy life. 
  Now is my day's work done; I'll take good breath: 3590
  Rest, sword; thou hast thy fill of blood and death. 
  [Puts off his helmet and hangs his shield] 
  behind him]

[Enter ACHILLES and Myrmidons]

• Achilles. Look, Hector, how the sun begins to set; 3595
  How ugly night comes breathing at his heels: 
  Even with the vail and darking of the sun, 
  To close the day up, Hector's life is done.

• Hector. I am unarm'd; forego this vantage, Greek.

• Achilles. Strike, fellows, strike; this is the man I seek. 3600
  [HECTOR falls] 
  So, Ilion, fall thou next! now, Troy, sink down! 
  Here lies thy heart, thy sinews, and thy bone. 
  On, Myrmidons, and cry you all amain, 
  'Achilles hath the mighty Hector slain.' 3605
  [A retreat sounded] 
  Hark! a retire upon our Grecian part.

• Myrmidons. The Trojan trumpets sound the like, my lord.

• Achilles. The dragon wing of night o'erspreads the earth, 
  And, stickler-like, the armies separates. 3610
  My half-supp'd sword, that frankly would have fed, 
  Pleased with this dainty bait, thus goes to bed. 
  [sheathes his sword] 
  Come, tie his body to my horse's tail; 
  Along the field I will the Trojan trail.3615

[DonRocks]

Act V, Scene 9

Another part of the plains.

[Enter AGAMEMNON, AJAX, MENELAUS, NESTOR, DIOMEDES,] [p]and others, marching. Shouts within]

• Agamemnon. Hark! hark! what shout is that?

• Nestor. Peace, drums! 3620
  [Within] 
  Achilles! Achilles! Hector's slain! Achilles.

• Diomedes. The bruit is, Hector's slain, and by Achilles.

• Ajax. If it be so, yet bragless let it be; 
  Great Hector was a man as good as he.3625

• Agamemnon. March patiently along: let one be sent 

[DonRocks]

Act V, Scene 10

Another part of the plains.

[Enter AENEAS and Trojans]

• Aeneas. Stand, ho! yet are we masters of the field: 
  Never go home; here starve we out the night.

[Enter TROILUS]

• Troilus. Hector is slain.3635

• All. Hector! the gods forbid!

• Troilus. He's dead; and at the murderer's horse's tail, 
  In beastly sort, dragg'd through the shameful field. 
  Frown on, you heavens, effect your rage with speed! 
  Sit, gods, upon your thrones, and smile at Troy! 3640
  I say, at once let your brief plagues be mercy, 
  And linger not our sure destructions on!

• Aeneas. My lord, you do discomfort all the host!

• Troilus. You understand me not that tell me so: 
  I do not speak of flight, of fear, of death, 3645
  But dare all imminence that gods and men 
  Address their dangers in. Hector is gone: 
  Who shall tell Priam so, or Hecuba? 
  Let him that will a screech-owl aye be call'd, 
  Go in to Troy, and say there, Hector's dead: 3650
  There is a word will Priam turn to stone; 
  Make wells and Niobes of the maids and wives, 
  Cold statues of the youth, and, in a word, 
  Scare Troy out of itself. But, march away: 
  Hector is dead; there is no more to say. 3655
  Stay yet. You vile abominable tents, 
  Thus proudly pight upon our Phrygian plains, 
  Let Titan rise as early as he dare, 
  I'll through and through you! and, thou great-sized coward, 
  No space of earth shall sunder our two hates: 3660
  I'll haunt thee like a wicked conscience still, 
  That mouldeth goblins swift as frenzy's thoughts. 
  Strike a free march to Troy! with comfort go: 
  Hope of revenge shall hide our inward woe. 
  [Exeunt AENEAS and Trojans] 3665
  [As TROILUS is going out, enter, from the other] 
  side, PANDARUS]

• Pandarus. But hear you, hear you!

• Troilus. Hence, broker-lackey! ignomy and shame 
  Pursue thy life, and live aye with thy name!3670

[Exit]

• Pandarus. A goodly medicine for my aching bones! O world! 
  world! world! thus is the poor agent despised! 
  O traitors and bawds, how earnestly are you set 
  a-work, and how ill requited! why should our 3675
  endeavour be so loved and the performance so loathed? 
  what verse for it? what instance for it? Let me see: 
  Full merrily the humble-bee doth sing, 
  Till he hath lost his honey and his sting; 
  And being once subdued in armed tail, 3680
  Sweet honey and sweet notes together fail. 
  Good traders in the flesh, set this in your 
  painted cloths. 
  As many as be here of pander's hall, 
  Your eyes, half out, weep out at Pandar's fall; 3685
  Or if you cannot weep, yet give some groans, 
  Though not for me, yet for your aching bones. 
  Brethren and sisters of the hold-door trade, 
  Some two months hence my will shall here be made: 
  It should be now, but that my fear is this, 3690
  Some galled goose of Winchester would hiss: 
  Till then I'll sweat and seek about for eases, 
  And at that time bequeathe you my diseases.

[Exit]

[DonRocks]

Reading these final acts almost makes me literally sick to my stomach.

Achilles is the biggest pussy I can ever remember in a Shakespearean play, and then he steps on the back of the hero he murdered for personal gain. There has got to be a suite reserved in Hades for this craven savage, right next to the members of ISIS who are sawing peoples' heads off with dull knives shouting "Allahu Akhbar!"

How ironic that the first person to say, "All is fair in love and war" was a complete unknown: English author Francis Edward Smedley in his 1850 novel "Frank Farleigh" about the life of a schoolboy. Never heard of it? Neither had I.