Raw Milk

[ol_ironstomach]

CNN news item: Amish farmer fights raw milk sting

"We know people are deprived of this real food," [stutzman] said.

[Hannah]

You want to buy unrefrigerated raw milk, you go right ahead; just make sure you get a TB test done regularly.

[ol_ironstomach]

You want to buy unrefrigerated raw milk, you go right ahead; just make sure you get a TB test done regularly.

Please...I'm no raw milk fanatic, nor am I eager to experience food poisoning, and I'm not on vacation in Laos. Nor China, for that matter; my last major milk gamble was probably that bowl of (intentionally) curdled buffalo milk somewhere outside of Shenzhen. The more logical thing approach would be to test the milk for pathogens first. I wouldn't advocate lifting a milk pasteurization requirement without establishing some alternate meaningful food safety protocol.

The issue is that it's a prescriptive mandate, not a test, and there is no avoiding it even if no problem exists. Case in point: Jenkins is particularly fond of a certain Fishbait cheese, a raw-milk product which cannot legally be sold for human consumption even though the milk from which it is made reliably tests at bacterial counts less than one-tenth the legal limit for pasteurized milk. But it's raw, so it's verboten. How is that fair?

[Cook&Bottlewasher]

You want to buy unrefrigerated raw milk, you go right ahead; just make sure you get a TB test done regularly.

And undulant fever and a host of other real illnesses that are not just "food poisoning". This is just not worth it.

[DonRocks]

"'You can't just give milk away to someone other than yourself. It's a violation of the law,' said [the appropriately named] LeeAnne Mizer, spokeswoman for the department [who hasn't had sex in over two years]."

[marketfan]

And undulant fever and a host of other real illnesses that are not just "food poisoning". This is just not worth it.

The issue is sanitation. Raw Milk is perfectly safe if the dairy is scrupulous about hygiene. Pasturized dairies are often much dirtier because they know that the milk will be pasturized.

[ScotteeM]

That is correct, according to my reading on the issue. Some dairies that provide unpasteurized milk have been accused of contamination, but these cases have not been proven.

This is one of those issues that is clouded by misinformation and misplaced fears, IMO.

[Hannah]

It's not just hygiene, it's the due diligence as far as appropriate vaccinations, disease treatment, and blood testing of the cattle. Pasteurization isn't just intended to kill the bacteria from external contaminants that might get into the supply chain, it takes care of some of the nastiness that could potentially be transmitted from the cows themselves - tuberculosis, leptospirosis, and brucellosis among others. These are not diseases I want to mess around with. If someone can come up with an appropriate certification program for raw fluid milk sale, fine. But there have to be some safeguards in place, which I suspect is the (poorly communicated) objection to "just giv[ing] milk away."

[ScotteeM]

I've just taken a crash course in raw milk. Boy was I ignorant and misinformed!

First, to the issue of refrigeration: Raw milk, whether from cows, goats, or humans, contains properties that have an antimicrobial effect. This effect is stronger at body temperature than at refrigerator temperature. In other words, raw milk, intentionally contaminated with campylobacter for a study, killed the bacteria faster when maintained at body temperature than when refrigerated, although it still killed the bacteria at refrigerator temperature. Pasteurization destroys this effect. So there goes my concern about the Amish farmer not refrigerating his milk!

I've also learned that, with proper sanitation, there is no greater risk of contamination in raw milk, and in fact some conventional dairy farmers can be a little lax in their sanitation practices, figuring that pasteurization will kill all the germs.

There are documented benefits in raw milk over pasteurized milk that might outweigh the risks, which are documented to be minimal. Drinking raw milk seems to be dramatically less risky than eating raw fruits and vegetables, for example.

It is possible to maintain sanitary conditions that render raw milk at least as safe, if not safer, than pasteurized milk, and the health benefits might push the balance in favor of raw milk. Pasteurization destroys more than contaminants--it kills many of the beneficial aspects of milk as well.

There are a few states that allow retail sales of raw milk products, and some that even support it. There are other states that allow the importation of raw milk products for retail sale. There are still others, like Virginia, that allow consumers to purchase shares of dairy cattle and receive their milk unpasteurized.

Honestly, if I thought I'd be living in this area long enough to make the commitment, I'd buy a share in a cow to get raw milk. As it is, one of my many considerations in selecting a destination for my retirement may well be that locale's policy regarding raw milk.

[Hannah]

Just to make sure both sides are represented...

Basic Dairy Bacteriology from Cornell

CDC

[marketfan]

It's not just hygiene, it's the due diligence as far as appropriate vaccinations, disease treatment, and blood testing of the cattle. Pasteurization isn't just intended to kill the bacteria from external contaminants that might get into the supply chain, it takes care of some of the nastiness that could potentially be transmitted from the cows themselves - tuberculosis, leptospirosis, and brucellosis among others. These are not diseases I want to mess around with. If someone can come up with an appropriate certification program for raw fluid milk sale, fine. But there have to be some safeguards in place, which I suspect is the (poorly communicated) objection to "just giv[ing] milk away."

Hannah,

I agree that it is also about keeping healthy cows. But that is good animal husbandry. And good husbandry can mean that we don't have to fear food and that we can enjoy its real taste. Several examples:

I am often in France. Farmers and supermarkets there do not refrigerate eggs because refrigeration changes the flavor as it does for tomatoes. I was a bit sceptical of this but I tried not refrigerating the eggs I bought at markets and yes, there was a huge difference in the flavor.

I lived in Denmark for 2 years in 1972 when I was shocked when I was served very pink, indeed rare pork. My Danish friends were shocked that we served pork gray. They had not had trichinosis in decades.

So, yes, you do have to know how your food is raised.

[Hannah]

Eating rare pork is an acceptable risk because the incidence of trichinosis is low (12 human cases attributable to pork products between 1997 and 2001). I'm not totally convinced by the unrefrigerated egg thing, but there's not a significantly higher incidence of Salmonella in Europe versus here, so that's a cultural preference rather than a food safety issue.

There are still millions of cases of Salmonella and Campylobacter a year, and there are 2 or 3 significant outbreaks (50-100 people) of each per year that can be attributed to raw milk consumption. There are plenty of dairy cattle that carry subclinical infections of any of these - 51.4% of apparently healthy dairy cattle tested were found to be carrying Campylobacter and 7.3% were carrying Salmonella (citation).

I grew up on a farm. I've been around cattle all my life, and I'm happy to eat raw beef and raw fish and non-immolated pork and lots of other "questionable" things. But drink raw milk? Unless it came from one of my own personal cows or cows with which I am personally acquainted, no way.

[B.A.R.]

If I sucked milk right from a cow's teet, would that be physically dangerous, emotionally dangerous, or both? I've been thinking about getting "personally acquainted" with a cow, and I just wanted to know what I am in for.

[Hannah]

There's a better than passing chance of getting kicked in the teeth and/or having your head shat upon.

(on more or less the same subject, I spent a good hour and a half in a meeting today listening to a project manager talking about how he was going to "get intimate" with our requirements. )

[Barbara]

(on more or less the same subject, I spent a good hour and a half in a meeting today listening to a project manager talking about how he was going to "get intimate" with our requirements. )

E-E-E-E-W-W-W-W

[DCJono]

I brought this subject up with a microbiologist friend of mine yesterday. He fondly remembered his college roommate who would bring milk from her family's farm to share with everyone in the dorm and he was intrigued at ways some people are able to procure the stuff now. He also ticked off several once-common diseases which are no longer common now that our milk is pasteurized.

Although he's certainly not an expert on the subject of milk, he works in water purification for a municipality and is well-versed on the nastier things we might sometimes ingest.

He felt that consuming raw milk and related products are a risk in the league of eating undercooked hamburger meat. There are some ugly diseases that are very real and very possible out there. Although sanitization plays a big role, healthy cows get sick just like we do with a whole slew of nasty bacterial infections including many that Hannah has already mentioned.

He went along with what many here have talked about - having a trustworthy source. People who know what they are doing, know their cattle, and consume the product themselves. Part of gaining trust with your raw milk provider is also getting satisfactory answers to questions like:

What are your testing procedures and what are you testing for? How often are samples taken?

What are the procedures to separate cattle when tests come back positive or appear sick?

How often is a vet on property to check the cattle?

How do they approach the subject of fecal coliform bacteria like e. coli?

He said that if the provider is open to these sorts of questions and you feel comfortable with the answers, then go for it. Sure you could pick up something nasty, but that's true with a lot of things we eat choose to eat every day.

He also highly recommended refrigeration to stop/slow down bacterial growth.

[giant shrimp]

what scottee m has to say on this subject sounds right to me, a person who never even thought about raw milk before reading nina planck's book. now i want to try it. she makes it sound like it's really healthy and you should make a regimen of it. raw milk sources are listed in an appendix. i glimpsed at it and a source in california sounded easy because they ship, although it is frozen, which may do something to it, i don't know. it is sold for the consumption of pets, a wink-wink condition, apparently.

i have eaten young raw milk cheeses in europe and they were delicious. i have read that customs will turn a blind eye to sneaking in this contraband, although i haven't tried it myself because midnight express scared me for life. and in paris they will tell you that cheese should be made no other way.

it sounds to me that the u.s. government is phobic about food that can actually be really good for you (and allows stuff that is really bad as a matter of course), which makes a certain amount of sense because raw milk doesn't seem like it would fit in especially easily with our industrialized food system. you wouldn't want the source to be most of the cows out there.

[deangold]

I've been thinking about getting "personally acquainted" with a cow, and and I just wanted to know what I am in for.

Take her to a bar... buy her a drink and some dinner...maybe some dinner, dancing (how do you think they homogenize milk?). Tell her you find her "udderly facinating" and go for it!

[Lydia R]

Looks like Maryland is working harder to protect us from buying shares in cows from small dairy farms.

But raw, unpasteurized milk -- as in straight from the udder -- is illegal to sell in Maryland, for what health officials say is good reason. Now Kevin Oyarzo, a farmer near Frederick, is challenging the state's opposition to raw milk in court, and Maryland's raw milk converts are pinning their hopes on his lawsuit.

Each state throughout the country regulates its raw milk, and many -- including Virginia and Maryland as well as the District -- have banned its sale. That doesn't mean it's illegal to consume: Farmers and other cow owners are allowed to drink it. And some raw milk enthusiasts are using that legal point to try to distribute it more widely.

<snip>

But in some states, such as Virginia, cow-share programs are the only route, and the idea is being tested in the courts. Two months ago, Ohio's Department of Agriculture revoked one dairy farmer's license for cow-sharing raw milk. A county judge overturned the state's decision and sided with the farmer, but the case faces a possible appeal.

Maybe things are looking up in for raw milk advocates in Ohio.

[monavano]

I came across "The Bovine" after the author commented on and used excerpts from a piece I wrote about the Fair Food Farmstand in Philadelphia. The Bovine writes about "rights issues around access to raw milk".

http://thebovine.wordpress.com/2008/11/05/...sion-is-mighty/

[Choirgirl21]

I've been drinking only raw milk for months now. I appreciate that I know the farmer whose cows produce my milk (and butter, and the chickens who produce my eggs and well, chicken) and can talk freely with him about how he raises his animals if I choose to. I also appreciate that I am putting something natural, that has not been artificially processed into my body. I pay no more for my milk than I would for organic milk in the grocery store (and the cows are raised naturally, with full access to pasture, and given only organic feed as a supplement) and as an added bonus, I get enough real cream to use in my coffee from the 1/2 gallon I buy each week as well.

Fears about raw milk are largely misguided these days. If raw milk were commercially produced and sold, then I would have concerns as I do about any commercially raised food. But as long as I can trace my milk back to a particular farm, with a farmer whose methods I am comfortable with (and whose cows' milk undergoes frequent testing for bacteria) I am a happy camper. There's no question that contamination issues aside, raw milk is better for us - in fact, many people who have lactose intolerance issues find they can drink raw milk without any of those same problems.

It's not for everyone I suppose, but I think for people who are invested in learning about where their food comes from and eating whole foods that are ideal for your health, raw milk is worth investigation.

[mdt]

...raw milk is better for us - in fact, many people who have lactose intolerance issues find they can drink raw milk without any of those same problems.

Interesting. Any source for that info?

I know this has been discussed before, but aren't lactose intolerant people actually intolerant to the long protein chains in the milk?

[Choirgirl21]

Interesting. Any source for that info?

I know this has been discussed before, but aren't lactose intolerant people actually intolerant to the long protein chains in the milk?

The problem is the lactose, which is a sugar found in milk. Lactase, an enzyme which helps our body breakdown and assimilate lactose is naturally found in raw milk, but is not present in commercial milk due to the pasteurization process. Here's a little info on lactose intolerance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactose_intolerance

Another health-related thing to consider - grass-fed cows and the milk from those cows has been proven to have higher levels of CLA, a substance known to have anti-cancer and antioxidant properties. Also suspected to aid in weight loss (added bonus). Unless you can find milk from actual grass-fed cows, your milk will not have high levels of this (same goes for healthy omega-3's in our meat, although I don't know if that passes through to the milk, it's at least an argument fore eating free-range meat). I am lucky enough to have a small market nearby that does sell organic, grass-fed milk (that is not raw) and that's my fall back when I haven't gotten my raw milk, but I would say that's rare to find in most stores.

[DanielK]

Interesting. Any source for that info?

I know this has been discussed before, but aren't lactose intolerant people actually intolerant to the long protein chains in the milk?

The problem is the lactose, which is a sugar found in milk. Lactase, an enzyme which helps our body breakdown and assimilate lactose is naturally found in raw milk, but is not present in commercial milk due to the pasteurization process. Here's a little info on lactose intolerance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactose_intolerance

You're both right. The wikipedia article is correct, but it doesn't mention that 90% of the people who think they are lactose-intolerant are really just having difficulty digesting the long protein chains in cow's milk. Switching to goat or sheep-based milk and dairy products can help many people avoid the problem.

[lekkerwijn]

I've been drinking only raw milk for months now. I appreciate that I know the farmer whose cows produce my milk (and butter, and the chickens who produce my eggs and well, chicken) and can talk freely with him about how he raises his animals if I choose to. I also appreciate that I am putting something natural, that has not been artificially processed into my body. I pay no more for my milk than I would for organic milk in the grocery store (and the cows are raised naturally, with full access to pasture, and given only organic feed as a supplement) and as an added bonus, I get enough real cream to use in my coffee from the 1/2 gallon I buy each week as well.

Fears about raw milk are largely misguided these days. If raw milk were commercially produced and sold, then I would have concerns as I do about any commercially raised food. But as long as I can trace my milk back to a particular farm, with a farmer whose methods I am comfortable with (and whose cows' milk undergoes frequent testing for bacteria) I am a happy camper. There's no question that contamination issues aside, raw milk is better for us - in fact, many people who have lactose intolerance issues find they can drink raw milk without any of those same problems.

It's not for everyone I suppose, but I think for people who are invested in learning about where their food comes from and eating whole foods that are ideal for your health, raw milk is worth investigation.

Where do you get the raw milk? I want to try to make clotted cream and all my research says I need to use raw milk from grass-fed cows.

[Choirgirl21]

Where do you get the raw milk? I want to try to make clotted cream and all my research says I need to use raw milk from grass-fed cows.

PM me and I'll give you the info. I'd rather not post it on the board. Anyone else who is seriously interested in getting raw milk, do the same.

[ScotteeM]

I will second what choirgirl21 said about raw milk. After many decades of lactose intolerance (which seems to be a familial predisposition), I have been happily drinking full-fat raw milk, and consuming other raw milk products (yogurt, cottage cheese, kefir, butter, cream, sour cream) for 16 months. In addition to the benefits mentioned above about the milk fat from grass-fed cows, the fat is needed for our bodies to metabolize the calcium and other nutrients in the milk. At my last checkup, my doctor was very pleased to see that I have lost a little weight, in spite of the milk fat, butter, chicken skin, eggs, beef and pork (with fat) I consume. And I wasn't even trying!

In terms of contamination concerns, according to the CDC's own data, pasteurized milk has been the cause of many more cases of illness due to contamination than raw milk, even considering the proportionately greater consumption numbers for pasteurized milk. But we never hear about that in all the media hysteria about raw milk.

I, too, know the farmer who produces the milk and other products I consume. I haven't visited his farm, but I am welcome to any time, and other customers have visited him and shared photos of the cows, chickens, and other animals on the farm. I know that my farmer strives daily to produce a healthy, tasty product for me and his other customers.

If anyone is considering trying raw milk, I'll be happy to provide some resources for learning more. It is very important to be an informed consumer, and to know the laws regarding raw milk consumption, which vary from state to state. It is legal in Pennsylvania, with stringent restrictions and considerable harassment of farmers by state bureaucrats. It is more restricted in Virginia, where one must own the cow to be able to obtain the milk. I hope that one day the same logic that applies to the sale of other raw food products (meat and vegetables, for instance) will prevail in the dairy arena.

[goodeats]

Trafficking in raw milk, a recent article on MSN.

[Cooking Creativity]

After reading this fascinating long thread on the topic of raw milk, I just have to weigh in with my first contribution to this list.

Given that fact that a potential customer of raw milk is probably seeking out this precious Grail believing it has tremendous health benefits, perhaps that customer is also willing to accept the risks. When we abdicate our responsibility for risk to the controllers, we may also relinquish, to some degree, our right to have a certain quality of food.

There is so much disinformation and fear around "food safety" in this country, yet so few consumers look at the reasons why we have so much regulation around food safety. If we were not processing such large "cost effective" volumes of food, we would not only have less risk of contamination, but also better quality of food overall.

When running a commercial kitchen many years ago, I had to take the Safe Serve training course that "certified" me by the county in which I worked to run that kitchen. The information on disease and potential for spoilage was detailed. The numerous protocols recommended were sound and, seemingly, infallible. However, when the instructor started to state that sushi was patently dangerous--not only because of the risk of consuming raw fish but merely because it was a food which used rice that had been cooled in a potentially dangerous manner, I realized that the training was going too far.

If we look around the world at the diversity of food handling practices employed safely on foods often more "raw" that we can generally find in the U.S., I think we can see that there is plenty of room for interpretation. Raw milk, for those who want it, is merely one of those "interpretations" I would say. Let them sign a waiver, like bungie jumping or rock climbing and cease the Food Police-like raids.

[ol_ironstomach]

So, is anyone here cowsharing at Hedgebrook Farm in Winchester? FAQ link

If so, then how's the milk?

I'm not especially looking for raw milk at this time; of more interest is the fact that their herd is all purebred Jersey. It's a strict cowshare program, where your milk allocation comes specifically from THE cow that you own a share in (and are paying boarding fees for). They also offer delivery of your share to NoVa for a price.

[goodeats]

So, is anyone here cowsharing at Hedgebrook Farm in Winchester? It's a strict cowshare program, where your milk allocation comes specifically from THE cow that you own a share in (and are paying boarding fees for). They also offer delivery of your share to NoVa for a price.

I am unsure if this is exact program that one locale uses, but I've only heard positive things about cowsharing. The reaction is similar to those who participate in a CSA: it gives a sense of ownership; you know the product and where it comes from; and the freshness of things. I can definitely find out more about it if you want.

[tfbrennan]

America's Dairyland close to legalizing it:

Wisconsin State Journal

April 23, 2010

"A bill that would allow the sale of raw milk passed overwhelmingly in the final hours of the Assembly's session. The Senate had already passed an identical version of the bill, meaning it now heads to Gov. Jim Doyle.

The Assembly voted 60-35 in support of the measure, which authorizes a dairy farmer with a grade A dairy farm permit to sell unpasteurized milk directly to consumers on the farm. Farmers would need to obtain raw milk permits from the Department of Agriculture, Trade and Consumer Protection.

To sell unpasteurized milk, a farmer needs to keep samples of it, maintain records of each sale, and have the milk tested for Salmonella and other disease-causing microorganisms. Dairy farmers must also provide certain information both on a sign where the milk is being sold and on the label of milk containers, including that unpasteurized milk can contain organisms that cause diseases."

[Anna Blume]

I finally was able to buy raw, organic milk from Beiler Family Farm, Amish, in Spring Mills, PA.

[monavano]

I finally was able to buy raw, organic milk from Beiler Family Farm, Amish, in Spring Mills, PA.

Wink.

And wink.

[zoramargolis]

Brother and sisters, if you've got a friend in CHEESES, this is going to make you sit up and say Uh oh.

[DonRocks]

Brother and sisters, if you've got a friend in CHEESES, this is going to make you sit up and say Uh oh.

These regulators aren't going to be eating any of the dairy products that *I* acquire (illegally, if need be), but they won't go hungry because they can eat my nuts.

What a fiend we have in cheeses.

[ScotteeM]

I contend that this is not a health issue at all. It is an economic issue masquerading as a health issue.

[Full disclosure: My husband and I have been daily consumers of raw milk and raw milk products for several years. We buy directly from a farmer we know, who belongs to an organization with stricter standards for sanitation than the local agriculture department. There is no question for us that the products we purchase and consume are wholesome and healthy.]

If this truly were a health issue, the reporting would include references to incidents involving contamination of pasteurized milk products, as well as the idea of potential contamination of unpasteurized products. A USDA/FDA report in 2003 stated that deli meats were involved in 515 times more illnesses from Listeria Monocytogenes than raw milk, and pasteurized milk was involved in 29 times more illness of that pathogen, which can cause severe illness, fetal death, premature death, and neonatal illness and death.

In fact, in all of the incidents of which I am aware where dairies selling raw milk or raw milk products were implicated in food-borne illnesses, all were subsequently exonerated, but that exoneration was not reported, only the accusations, which stood.

The fact is, most raw milk and raw milk products, are sold on the farm. That means the farmer is receiving full market value for his product, as opposed the pittance received for wholesale milk. The commercial dairy industry does not want this to spread. Hence the alarm over raw milk.

[DonRocks]

I contend that this is not a health issue at all. It is an economic issue masquerading as a health issue.

[Full disclosure: My husband and I have been daily consumers of raw milk and raw milk products for several years. We buy directly from a farmer we know, who belongs to an organization with stricter standards for sanitation than the local agriculture department. There is no question for us that the products we purchase and consume are wholesome and healthy.]

If this truly were a health issue, the reporting would include references to incidents involving contamination of pasteurized milk products, as well as the idea of potential contamination of unpasteurized products. A USDA/FDA report in 2003 stated that deli meats were involved in 515 times more illnesses from Listeria Monocytogenes than raw milk, and pasteurized milk was involved in 29 times more illness of that pathogen, which can cause severe illness, fetal death, premature death, and neonatal illness and death.

In fact, in all of the incidents of which I am aware where dairies selling raw milk or raw milk products were implicated in food-borne illnesses, all were subsequently exonerated, but that exoneration was not reported, only the accusations, which stood.

The fact is, most raw milk and raw milk products, are sold on the farm. That means the farmer is receiving full market value for his product, as opposed the pittance received for wholesale milk. The commercial dairy industry does not want this to spread. Hence the alarm over raw milk.

Thank you for telling it like it is, Scottee. Now, if the FDA could only redirect their attention to inhumane, industrial-scale chicken coops and cattle farms instead of picking on people who are doing God's work. This is food one step closer to nature, in the spirit of the Old Testament - transportation and storage are the problems, not the dairy products themselves. I've had raw milk several times, raw butter even more often, and the difference in taste is night-and-day - it makes me feel uplifted and inspired. Hell, why don't we put a moratorium on selling raw meat and fish - maybe we should we zap them too, or maybe sell them only vacuum-packed or pre-cooked.

And lest we forget, people die ten years too young from eating nothing but industrially processed food (no, I don't have scientific evidence to back me up on that). I'm willing to bet 500-times more people get sick eating raw oysters (I've been one, felt like I was going to die that evening, and I was fine in 24 hours and went to the same restaurant and got the same oysters three days later) than raw-milk cheese, that's for sure.

I swear that I will go out of my way to break the law if raw-milk cheeses are outlawed. Yeah, there are more important battles in life to fight (war, cancer, heart disease, etc.), but this is one where I have a powerful platform, and I'm going to use it.

"Fools. Bureaucratic fools."

-- Indiana Jones, "Raiders of the Lost Ark"

[deangold]

Raw Milk is a contentious matter. The studies of the dangers of Raw Milk are made very difficult to interpret because the illegality/difficulty to obtain/underground nature of raw milk makes it very difficult to determine the number of raw milk drinkers. Having said that, the danger of manufactured food numbers need to take into account the disease caused by the very nature of the havoc they cause on our health {diabetes, heart disease etc}. Even Horizon Milk is nothing but manufactured foods. All UHT milk is a gamble foisted on us where our government put an item hugely deformed from nature and traditional use and called it gras with no scientific basis. WHen you UHT pasteurize milk, the fat molecules and the protein structures are changed physically. WHile all naturally sourced, these protein structures do not occur in nature so thay may be safe, or like when you hydrogenate fats, they may turn out to be mass killers. Happy drinking! I have chosen to use pasteurized milk that is not UHT processed {I chose to use TSC}. Why not lablel the stuff and then let informed consumers make a choice?

Having said that, I turn to the question of cheese: Here the arguments against raw milk are a bunch of hooey pressed on by Kraft Cheese {the main backers of the Codex Alimentaria} which is afraid that raw milk cheeses will put a dent in the evil that is Kraft Parmesan Cheese in a can. First of all, Parmesan should only be used to dewscribe the real thing, but US label law is a code that tells how much lying is allowed on a product}. Then, cheese just shouldn't come in cardboard boxes!

There are almost no cases of food borne illness traced to raw milk cheese where raw milk per se is the causal agent. In fact, I know of none and have seen no evidence that there is a single case of the raw milk in the raw milk cheese. Look at the egregious Sally Jackson case. 8 people were sickened by e coli. The most likely cause of the outreak was the cow manure found on the cheese. She was just a bad cheesemaker, and she has shuttered her operation in light of massive gpovernment reaction to her case.

On the other hand, Mexican style cheeses sold in cryovac in most major grocery stores {Queso Fresco and Queso Bianco being the most common styles} are pasteurized cheeses that are responsible for listeriosis outbreaks every year. People regularly die from this. Are these cheesemakers put out of business and the product banned? Nope.

Sara Lee had a Ball Park Franks plant that was cited time and time again for maintenance issue due to an air conditioning unit so filthy that is was a constant source of listeriosis causing biggies. 17 people dies on one outbreak. So Sarah Lee official were charged with negligent homicide and the company suffered massive financial retribution for essentially murdering people thru negligence? The peanut butter company that killed and sickened people is out of business right? MOnsanto's GE seeds have reduced the use of weed killer chemicals and have not resulted in the genetic drift of the wonder genes {prganic farmers ahve been sued for having the GE genes in their open pollinated crops... what a concept. Rape me then sue me for having illegal sex? Geeze, the list goes on and on. But our gevernment is looking out for real health hazards and these guys have been shredded right? What? No? Awwww, don't tell me there isn't a Santa Clause!

Raw milk cheese included all Parmesan, all Ementaler, all real Gruyere and lots more. Up until a few years ago, all real cheddar {you know, the stuff actuall from the Cheddar Valler area made with time honored traditions and aged in open contact to air} was raw milk. Millions eat raw milk cheese to no harm. Even many lactose intolerant to liquid milk can digest raw milk cheese with no harm.

Studies quoted in the latest brouhaha {or it is inquisition} say that it is quite likely that the current 60 day rule may be too long for fresh cheeses and too short for hard cheeses, how about a standard bases on moisture content, salinity & pH that actually minimizes the risk and then put a warning label on the product and let me decide. After all, I am allowed to go buy dangerous products all day long... just look at the food sponsors of the Super Bowl and I bet each of then carries a risk far greater than raw milk cheese.

[Anna Blume]

I finally was able to buy raw, organic milk from Beiler Family Farm, Amish, in Spring Mills, PA.

I received a PM after writing this, so I will elaborate.

My certified organic, raw milk was easy to obtain since two young Amish women representing the Beiler Family Farm were selling the local product in one of many displays and exhibitions in a conference center at Penn State. There was also butter and yogurt for sale, but I stuck w the milk.

Pints went from their plastic cooler to an ice-filled bin to the refrigerator in my hotel room to an insulated lunch box w an ice pack, kept in the trunk during a four-hour ride when temperatures ranged from 31 to (briefly) 37 F. Immediately unpacked and refrigerated w some of the contents poured into coffee and oatmeal this morning. So far, no adverse results.

As many of you know, and as has probably been reported here--perhaps on the thread devoted to Clear Springs Creamery if not in this which might be merged w two posts in a duplicate thread w a longer name--certain farms in PA have legal rights to sell raw milk to those who visit their farms to purchase it. I believe they also can sell the milk at local farmers markets, but it cannot cross state lines for the purpose of sale. Check out monavano's winks above for her wonderful reports from the Reading Terminal market in Philadelphia which document commercial accessibility of fresh, raw milk to the state's consumers.

I took the risk because I have a pretty hardy constitution, know people who raised healthy children on raw milk and feel reassured by the agricultural organization that sanctioned the sale. The label's reference to certification was another source of confidence, not that I trust the USDA utterly and completely, especially after recent decisions to permit GMO alfalfa which I fear will eventually contaminate all feed and render virtually all organic animal food products--milk, beef, eggs, chicken, turkey, lamb, honey--of purely historical interest in a fallen world where zombies roam.