Championship Teams vs. All-Star Teams - Who Would Win?

[DonRocks]

Building on Joe's point, arguably the best soccer you can see is NOT at the World Cup, where national teams hold a few weeks of camp before going to compete, but when the clubs play against each other. So watch for UEFA Champions League matches in February-May each year as the top European clubs go head-to-head with each other.

Note that of the 700+ players who were named to starting WC squads, well more than half of them play regularly in the top 5 European Leagues (England, Italy, Germany, Spain, France). And if you look at the squads that made it past the group stage, it's more like 3/4.

You're kind-of saying that a world-championship team can beat an all-star team which is something I've thought to be true in most sports. Unfortunately, it's hard to prove since there's usually an overlap in players.

[Joe H]

Bayern Munich, on paper, would beat the German team.  Remember Arjen Robben and Franck Ribery play for Bayern.  That's seven Bayern players plus two of the best offensive players in the world. Ribery was third in the voting for best player in Europe last year (behind Messi and Ronaldo) and Robben won the bronze medal as the third best player at the WC behind Messi and Mueller.  A lot of people thought that Messi should not have won.  I am biased but I believe that Robben is the most exciting player in the world when he has the ball.  Shaqiri (Switzerland) and Alaba are both very young and talented and arguably the rock of Bayern's defense a year ago was Javi Martinez, a E 37 million transfer who, I think, remarkably does not start for Spain.

The one player that Bayern need-and they failed to get him two years ago-is Marco Reus who extended at Dortmund.

On paper, I believe that both Barca and Real would beat Spain (maybe Athletico Madrid who won the CL this year too).  Several English clubs could beat their National team.

Totally agree with Daniel about the CL.  Fantastic futbal/fussbal/soccer.

The top European clubs pick off the best players in the world.  Consider Real adding Ronaldo and Gareth Bale, Barca adding Messi, Neymar and now Suarez.  Bayern noted above adding Robben and Ribery.

According to Forbes six of the top sixteen highest paid athletes in all sports play for European "soccer" clubs.

[DanielK]

You're kind-of saying that a world-championship team can beat an all-star team which is something I've thought to be true in most sports. Unfortunately, it's hard to prove since there's usually an overlap in players.

Yeah, but it's more like saying that 11 world-class players who play together 8 months a year can beat 11 world-class players who play together 1 month every 4 years, and then sporadically over the next 4 years. Since one well-timed pass can change a game, familiarity with your teammates is immeasurably critical to success.

I don't think I'd make the same claim in baseball, for example, where individual effort is more pronounced. I'd put money on the 2014 NL All-Star team over the first-place Nationals.

[Steve R.]

Yeah, but it's more like saying that 11 world-class players who play together 8 months a year can beat 11 world-class players who play together 1 month every 4 years, and then sporadically over the next 4 years. Since one well-timed pass can change a game, familiarity with your teammates is immeasurably critical to success.

I don't think I'd make the same claim in baseball, for example, where individual effort is more pronounced. I'd put money on the 2014 NL All-Star team over the first-place Nationals.

More similar to basketball? Spurs (or Heat?) vs. the Olympic team.

[DanielK]

Steve, I'm not enough of a basketball fan to be able to validate that. But the US doesn't always win in Olympics when we clearly have the better players - is that because the other national teams play together more frequently, or does the US have an ego problem when you put 5 stars on the court?

What I have read about the Spurs is that it's a high-team low-ego focus, and they are unselfish and quick to pass. Is that success because of the gameplan, or because they work together so much that they can anticipate each others movements?

That's a huge part of soccer - those through passes that go 30-40 yards and hit a player on a flat-out run are partially due to the quality of both players, but a significant part is that the guy making the pass anticipates the other players run before he starts it, and the runner anticipates that the ball will be there when he looks. That's how you beat offsides, and how you collapse a defense.

[DaveO]

I can't answer for Steve R, but I played both sports, more competitive soccer, and more soccer on teams from year to year, including groups that kept playing and practicing together for long periods during the year.    Definitely, (despite Ann Coulter's politcally snide attacks) as a group of teammates you develop an ability to pass together, develop an understanding of one another, try and create plays that work to your strengths etc.   That all takes time and practice.  Its the same for basketball and soccer.

The spurs were not known as a passing team, to the extent they were so good at it this year, for years. In fact much of their basic offense changed a lot over the years.   In soccer I played on teams that stuck together for several years.  Some featured speedsters and we featured those long passes both counting on and anticipating speed and moving into open territories.  Several players always have to be aware of that;  the passers and the recipients.  It takes lots of practice and playing together to develop that teamwork.   Its the same thing in basketball.

....and on a different front...@Steve....here is an ode to your local dude...melo.

I don't like watching him...but that has nothing to do with his quality.  

[Steve R.]

Although its probably true that an individual of great talent exerts more influence on every game in basketball than in soccer, I think the basic premise of knowing how to work together on both offense and defense is true in both sports to a very high degree.  I'm no expert on soccer, but the best teams (especially Germany) in the World Cup looked much like what I expect of a great basketball team.  All too often, other teams in the tournament seemed to have imperfect knowledge of where their teammates were & where they were expected to go and weren't sure of who to pass to and when.  There was also a certain amount of "gotta do it myself" observable.  I think that the US Olympic basketball teams have looked like this as well, while the best teams in the NBA look more that the organized group that Germany seemed to be & that folks are saying that the better professional soccer league teams seem to be as well.  So I'd guess the parallel is close enough.

[Joe H]

Interesting comment about the influence of one player on a game in basketball vs. "soccer."  I'm not so sure that I agree unless we're talking about a situation with a Wilt Chamberlain or Jabbar and the opposing team at least a half foot shorter.  Robben/Messi/Ronaldo and a few others consistently demand two or more players on them.  Of course one player out of five is not like one player out of eleven.  Still, I think of Bayern when both Ribery and Robben were healthy, Real with both Bale and Ronaldo and the upcoming season (after the end of October when the Italian gourmet is able to play again) where Barca will feature three of the best attacking players in the world.

I must add this:  FWIW I have no interest in soccer in America.  I've been fortunate to experience a number of European stadiums in my travel and it is just a different game, a different experience in Europe.  Several years ago I saw Bayern play Dortmund in Dortmund's stadium-it was incredible.  I think of the old RFK where the steel and concrete stands would seemingly rock with the passion of fans.  Dortmund was the same and then some.

This is a poor analogy but somehow it seems to fit:  in 1965 I saw DeMatha beat Power and Alcindor at Cole Field House with 12,500 others.  The woman next to me was eight or nine months pregnant (no, I had never met her before!).  Three, four times in the second half she exclaimed "I'm going to have my baby...right now!"  She was serious.  I think she actually wanted to say almost a half century later that she gave birth during DeMatha winning that game!

But she was passionate.  Extraordinarily passionate.

In Dortmund and a number of other places there could be a lot of babies born in the stands during a good game.

[Steve R.]

You may well be correct about the influence of one player on the game.  I really don't know soccer well enough to even have a clue how much the big guns mean to a team.  I would guess that the lack of scoring lessened my education on that"¦. it's just more obvious how a Michael Jordan or a Lebron James means to a team, since it can be more easily quantified in the scoresheet.

[lovehockey]

You're kind-of saying that a world-championship team can beat an all-star team which is something I've thought to be true in most sports. Unfortunately, it's hard to prove since there's usually an overlap in players.

Living up to my moniker, I'd say that an excellent example of a true national team vs. an all-star team is the Red Army playing Team Canada after 1961 (when Canada quit sending club teams to the Olympics and the World Hockey Championships and started sending only amateurs for several decades) until the Olympics opened up to pros.  But the most important years are between September 1972 and the fall of the Soviet Union at the tournaments where Team Canada consisted of NHL and/or WHA players.  The first time this happened was the Summit Series in 1972*, and the best examples after that were the five Canada Cups.

If you like hockey at all, take some hours, get on YouTube, and watch the 3 games between Canada and the USSR in the 1987 Canada Cup final.  The final score in each game was 6-5.  It is arguably one of the best displays of hockey you'll ever watch, although Grant Fuhr didn't look too great in net for Canada, IMO (five of the players on Team Canada played for the Edmonton Oilers at the time).  A number of the USSR players were in the NHL within a few years.  Several Washington Capitals played in the tournament for Canada or the United States.

*If you're a Canadian over a certain age, you need to know the answer to "Where were you in '72?" when Paul Henderson scored with 36 seconds left to beat the Soviets in the final game of the Summit Series and win the tournament for Canada.  My parents witnessed the goal in person at the arena in Moscow.

[DanielK]

I must add this:  FWIW I have no interest in soccer in America.  I've been fortunate to experience a number of European stadiums in my travel and it is just a different game, a different experience in Europe.  Several years ago I saw Bayern play Dortmund in Dortmund's stadium-it was incredible.  I think of the old RFK where the steel and concrete stands would seemingly rock with the passion of fans.  Dortmund was the same and then some.  

Joe, go to an MLS game between Portland and Seattle. You will be shocked.